FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Jediabiwan]

My view is that Cordelia and Sumia should be at the top below the Avatar.

Well that's nice. I'll leave the discussion on why this isn't a LTC list to others.

I will say though that galeforce is a bit underrated and really shaves off a lot of turns late game. Just another reason for them to move up soon, although not to below avatar.

I can't really add more than was already stated. Give them a few points of def with a support and they can start holding their own. Once they gain a few levels and support ranks they'll start dodging like crazy and can take the few hits that do land. Extra mov + flying puts them so far ahead of most of your team it's hard not to have them take all the kills. Wind mag is barely a problem b/c of high res, and you can just switch in the backup unit to deal with archers. Or just kill them first if they don't have any friends nearby.

[Chiki]

Why strength doesn't matter:

1. Forges

2. Tonics

3. Pair ups

4. Dual Attack

Why defense and avoid don't matter:

1. Pair ups

2. Dual Guard

3. Tonics

4. Supports

Really, all this wank over Sully and Panne being oh so durable and reliable and stuff is unfounded when anyone else can be just as reliable and as useful.

Only availability, utility and mobility matter in this game.

[Shadow Mir]

Why defense and avoid don't matter:

2. Dual Guard

Try harder/10

Because Dual Guards are anything but reliable.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Da Bear]

According to Olwen's logic Ricken is just as good as Panne and Sully.

Which is why I say we ignore him until he leaves.

[Chiki]

It's the combination of those factors that matter. I did not say they matter alone.

[Da Bear]

It's the combination of those factors that matter. I did not say they matter alone.

It was implied in your logic...

[Constable Reggie]

Lissa to below avatar because galeforce, please.

a) perfect availability, b) amazing unique utility in staff use and galefore, and c) flying mobility is best mobility

After all, only availability, utility and mobility matter in this game.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Chiki]

You can't disprove my logic. You have no better answer than to say "ignore him!"

Here is the issue. Base Sumia has 6 str. With a 10 might lance, she has 16 might. Add Tonic and Frederick bonuses and you get a 22 might Sumia. Base Frederick in the Prologue has 26 might with the Silver Lance.

There's also Dual Strike chances, which can be complete overkill even for a weakling like Sumia.

Hard Mode is not difficult enough to warrant overkill offense and defense. That is my argument.

And Ricken is not better than Sully, because he doesn't have mobility. I don't think you can even comprehend my line of reasoning.

Lol, Lissa can't even promote for ages due to being a Cleric. You guys have the crappiest examples.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Olwen

[Constable Reggie]

If by ages, then you mean one chapter after top tier Cordelia joins, then sure. The second she takes the second seal, she's instantly as useful Cordelia/Sumia barring a small availability loss, because combat stats apparently don't matter. Getting galefore and 1-2 range slightly later is insignificant compared to pieces of shit like Panne and Sully who can't even get galeforce lol.

Hell, Maribelle up to top tier too please, since everything about Lissa is applicable to her.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Goodness gracious me, stop arguing with Olwen. I'm not taking anything he says seriously, so you don't have to worry about debunking his brand of bullshit.

This is all I have time for, but I have some changes to make and some ~opinions~ to dispense soon, so expect a post from me.

Carry on!

(p.s.: galeforce is bad and you should feel bad, the only person who might ever get it is sumia and that's if she goes dark flier to support henry at which point she's a pocket unit to someone worthwhile and galeforce doesnt matter)

[Sol Hiryu]

To be fair, Galeforce is a really good tool, but it's largely irrelevant by the time you do get it. Unless Sumia and/or Cordelia are shoveling most kills down their throats, I don't see them getting to level 15 Dark Flier until late Valm or early Validar, at which point it's nice to have but not really as significant as it could have been.

That said, they do need to move over Lon'qu. Swordlock and horrific defenses just make him a worse Chrom overall.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Sol Hiryu

[Chiki]

Lol, it's hilarious no one here can actually disprove anything I can say and have no option but to say "ignore him."

Can someone tell me why Tonics, Pair Ups etc. don't make strength and defense overkill? Can someone tell me why we need so much of it when we're only playing hard mode?

Galeforce can be gotten early on if you do some early promotion tricks and some rational favoritism.

I'm pretty sure I could do a tier list playthrough utilizing Sumia and Cordelia but without Sully and Panne at all. Anyone interested?

Edited May 7, 2013 by Olwen

[Titamon]

To be fair, Galeforce is a really good tool, but it's largely irrelevant by the time you do get it. Unless Sumia and/or Cordelia are shoveling most kills down their throats, I don't see them getting to level 15 Dark Flier until late Valm or early Validar, at which point it's nice to have but not really as significant as it could have been.

That said, they do need to move over Lon'qu. Swordlock and horrific defenses just make him a worse Chrom overall.

You mean the same horrific defenses that Sumia has? Come on people, they pretty much have the same HP/DEF growths his (80/30) to her (75/30). And he has access to the same amount of def+ supports (if not more) as she does. The real differrence between the two is mobility and 1-2 range.

However I do agree Sumia > Lon'qu

[Anouleth]

Lol, it's hilarious no one here can actually disprove anything I can say and have no option but to say "ignore him."

Can someone tell me why Tonics, Pair Ups etc. don't make strength and defense overkill? Can someone tell me why we need so much of it when we're only playing hard mode?

Galeforce can be gotten early on if you do some early promotion tricks and some rational favoritism.

I'm pretty sure I could do a tier list playthrough utilizing Sumia and Cordelia but without Sully and Panne at all. Anyone interested?

I'm pretty sure I could do a tier list playthrough utilizing (literally any two characters on the list) but without (literally any other two characters on the list). But it wouldn't prove anything.

I mean, there are so many ways to trivialise Hard Mode. Galeforce isn't even that broken, when you take into account stuff like Robin who can solo the game, Frederick (who can also solo the game), Stahl could possibly also solo the game after a certain point, long Rescue-dance chains with Anna/Libra/whoever, Manaketes who can solo the game, and Nosferatanking with any of Henry, Miriel, Tharja, Libra, or Robin. I'm sure there's stuff I've missed, but the fact remains: Hard Mode is not hard, and being able to beat the game in a brisk timeframe without Sully and Panne is not a notable achievement.

[Chiki]

If I can prove that Sumia and Cordelia have enough reliability to survive and enough offense to kill everything (without RNG abuse) then it'll prove my claim that Sully and Panne's overkill reliability and offense isn't necessary.

You point out that it wouldn't prove anything because you can break the game with anyone. But remember that there's a difference between breaking the game playing like a snail and playing efficiently. If Sumia and Cordelia can do it efficiently, then they doubtlessly are better than the alternatives you suggest.

You'll continue to say it doesn't matter. Why doesn't it?

Edited May 7, 2013 by Olwen

[Tables]

Being great with tons of resources < being great without tons of resources.

Firstly tonics. You're talking about throwing them around like they cost nothing. Individually, sure, a tonic is 150G. But if offence and defence matter so little that essentially your entire army needs say 2-3, that's like 3-4K gold per chapter. Early game, you just don't have enough money to do anything like that. Midgame to late game you can afford it a little more, but not consistently.

Secondly, you know what's better than being 5HKOed after you shore their defence up? Being 5HKOed before you shore it up, and being essentially invincible after. Late game enemies in hard mode get reasonably strong - their accuracy tends to always be pretty bad, but they do hit hard when they hit. Pair Ups definitely help, but then again units like Panne can do that as well to get even stronger. Not everyone will reach the point they're reliably 2HKOing most enemies even with everything thrown at them.

Finally, this tier list isn't about LTC. We're assumed to play brisky, but that doesn't mean we're trying to 2 turn every chapter with 11 move units (something, incidentally, that Panne can do). Those 'overkill' units as you're calling them contribute to fast, cheap and reliable clears of chapters - a combination more fragile units can only dream of.

[Chiki]

But if offence and defence matter so little that essentially your entire army needs say 2-3, that's like 3-4K gold per chapter.

Assuming you use around 4-5 units per chapter (which is generous, and this includes units Pairing up), 300 each, that's around 1.2k-1.5k per chapter.

Finally, this tier list isn't about LTC. We're assumed to play brisky,

You don't have to agree with my views on LTC to agree with the view that Sully and Panne have overkill offense and defense which is unnecessary.

[Folt]

Assuming you use around 4-5 units per chapter (which is generous, and this includes units Pairing up), 300 each, that's around 1.2k-1.5k per chapter.

1.2k-1.5k that could have gone to a Rescue Staff or a new weapon. That kind of money is also quite the hit to your funds in the early-game.

You don't have to agree with my views on LTC to agree with the view that Sully and Panne have overkill offense and defense which is unnecessary.

Overkill offense and defense which ensures I won't need to spend money on tonics, and can save it for other, more important things.

Also, if this were an LTC tier list, I'd wager that either Anna or Libra would be much higher than they currently are.

[Anouleth]

If anything, it should be Olivia who really needs to go up. Although I think she should go up anyway...

[Tables]

Assuming you use around 4-5 units per chapter (which is generous, and this includes units Pairing up), 300 each, that's around 1.2k-1.5k per chapter.

You don't have to agree with my views on LTC to agree with the view that Sully and Panne have overkill offense and defense which is unnecessary.

4-5 per chapter seems a little low. Well, it's reasonable pre-children, excluding support units at least. At that point, you just can't afford that money per chapter, and it's money that could have gone to more valuable things as Folt pointed out. But once you get children, it seems far more likely I'm going to have about 6-8 main combat units, plus perhaps 1-2 support. Of course money becomes a little more flexible then, but that's still a big wad you'd need to put into temporary boosters.

You need to stop twisting Sully and Panne's offensive and defensive edges to make it sound like a bad thing. Firstly, I haven't looked at the stats, but I seriously doubt it's actually what could be reasonably described as being overkill - enough that they can 2HKO anything and everything with even weak weapons, and not die, ever, and then (crucially) even more on top of that. Secondly, their great stats are a pure asset - they let you do things like throwing them into groups of enemies without issue, killing most/all of them and coming out with minimal (if any) damage, even using cheap weapons such as bronze or cheap 1-2 range. I reckon that not a huge number of characters can do that, even with pair ups - and I don't think even a few tonics could catch many of the weaker characters up to it.

Finally: You seem to be totally ignoring the fact that Sully and Panne have good mobility anyway. Sully starts as a Cavalier, and has access to Wyvern Rider. Panne has good claim and good reason to get a Second Seal soon to go Wyvern Rider. Yes, this is a limited and competed resource - but if we go by your assumption we're fielding <=5 characters, I reckon that would certainly minimise the oppertunity cost, especially considering that Second Seals start to become not that rare from about chapter 8 onwards.

[Da Bear]

I lol at 4-5 units a map.

Why on earth would you even bother recording that? It's the same as massive favoritism, people get too many levels for them to be reliably tiered.

Edited May 7, 2013 by bearclaw13

[PKL]

SDS is wrong as usual. I got Galeforce with Cordelia in Turn 3 of Chapter 18 in my efficiency playlog and my other units never suffered from being underleveled. I also switched Stahl in and out to handle bows and he was Level 9 Paladin. There's a lot of exp in this game, just saying. And Galeforce is a huge boon. More than any of you think. It's not just a LTC skill as some of you are suggesting.

All 3 potential Galeforcers (Sumia, Cordelia and Pegasus Avatar) can reach it in a reasonable timeframe.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Peekayell

[Chiki]

You're right. 4-5 units is too much. I generally use 2-3 for my maps.

Second, I'm not saying it's bad thing. I'm saying its unnecessarily good.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Olwen

[Da Bear]

You're right. 4-5 units is too much. I generally use 2-3 for my maps.

Second, I'm not saying it's bad thing. I'm saying its unnecessarily good.

Allow me to point out why this doesn't work for the tier list.

It's the same as massive favoritism, people get too many levels for them to be reliably tiered.

Basically you can't actually tier them with that kind of playthrough because no one else seems to use such a small number of units.

Edited May 7, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Tables]

2-3 units is stupid. The game throws so much EXP at you, there's no reason you shouldn't be using 6-10.