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Why all the hate for Sothe And Micaiah?

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No, Ike started the war that destroyed Daein. Daein won the first war. It locked up the soldiers and militia, occupied Crimea's fortresses and were heading into towns and cities that they hadn't invaded before taking over the country to declare their rule. When Ike led the invasion of Daein, then Daein-occupied Crimea, he started a second war. Ike's invasion of Daein apparently left it's cities and towns in ruins and for what? As far as the general populace know, for no other reason to get to Crimea, which they didn't need to invade Daein to do. It was perfectly possible to free Crimea by heading into it through Begnion, or by using the route that the Apostle's Army takes in Radiant Dawn, which avoids towns and cities in Daein. Sure, we know Ike went to Nevassa to fight Ashnard, who wasn't there, but how would Daein's population?

No she doesn't. Let's say she did stop the Laguz Alliance in 3-6. Gallia and Pheonics would still exist. If she stopped the Apostle's Army, Gallia, Pheonics, Crimea and Begnion would still exist. If Begnion activated the Blood Pact, Daein would be destroyed. She's tries to destroy a percentage of their populations in exchange for the entirety of her country not being eradicated.

Still, it was DAIEN that start the whole deal. Had daein not invaded crimea, it wouldn't be in ruins. it was them, and them alone to blame for that. Even then, the Daein forces in crimea were too strong to be taken directly, without invading daein. Daein being invaded was only Ashnard's fault (even he admits that), since he moved almost the entire deain's army to crimea. BTW, the game refers to only one war,the invasion of a crimea and its reconquest is considered the part of the same war, the mad king's war. Still, can you blame Ike and Elincia for wanting to get their country back, or even wanting to burn Daein down (which they didn't. Ike even tried to help Daein civilians, which wouldn't accept help, because they were xenophobic pricks), when they were the first ones to do that to their country?

Also, Micaiah was walling to destroy anything begnion said her to, in order to save her shitty country. And I bet, after conquering all the other countries, begnion would invade daein anyway (that part I would have liked).

She was just too dumb to realize that. Had her allied with crimea and the laguz aliance, defeated begnion and broke the blood pact, there would be less causalities even in her crappy country, but she was just too stupid to realize that.

I hate Micaiah because the sum of those small things. It's like she can't think for a second, and just follow her stupid and misleading emotions.

I absolute hate how RD tries to retcon PoR, making daein look like the "good guys" and how it tries to make us forget all the terrible war crimes daein did on the first game.

I don't hate sothe because he was all the time there trying to convince micaiah how ike was actually a nice guy, even if he's kind of her slave. He knew Micaiah was wrong, the only reason he would still be with her is because he loved her. He's cool in my book.

Edited by Nobody

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Still, it was DAIEN that start the whole deal. Had daein not invaded crimea, it wouldn't be in ruins. it was them, and them alone to blame for that. Even then, the Daein forces in crimea were too strong to be taken directly, without invading daein. Daein being invaded was only Ashnard's fault (even he admits that), since he moved almost the entire deain's army to crimea. BTW, the game refers to only one war,the invasion of a crimea and its reconquest is considered the part of the same war, the mad king's war. Still, can you blame Ike and Elincia for wanting to get their country back, or even wanting to burn Daein down (which they didn't. Ike even tried to help Daein civilians, which wouldn't accept help, because they were xenophobic pricks), when they were the first ones to do that to their country?

How does invading Daein first make the Daein forces in Crimea weaker? If anything, news that the army they're fighting devastated their homeland would only make them fight harder. And seriously? Daein wiped out Crimea's forces and was subjugating it's people, and there was a lengthy gap between Daein ending Crimea's resistance and Ike invading Daein. It shouldn't count as the same war! And while I can't blame them for wanting Crimea back, I can blame them for devastating Daein, since it was obvious that Ashnard wasn't there, and he was the target they were gunning for.

Also, Micaiah was walling to destroy anything begnion said her to, in order to save her shitty country. And I bet, after conquering all the other countries, begnion would invade daein anyway (that part I would have liked).

She was just too dumb to realize that. Had her allied with crimea and the laguz aliance, defeated begnion and broke the blood pact, there would be less causalities even in her crappy country, but she was just too stupid to realize that.

Had she allied with the Apostle's Army, the Senate would have activated the Blood Pact, and Daein would've been eradicated. Do you really think that even unimpeded by Daein, the Apostle's Army could fight through the Senate's forces, get to Sienne, find the Senate and leave them unable to activate the pact before news gets to the Senate that Daein didn't follow orders? And do you think that they'd be able to force the senate to withdraw the power of the pact?

And why are Ike and Elincia justified about saving Crimea, but Micaiah isn't about Daein?

I hate Micaiah because the sum of those small things. It's like she can't think for a second, and just follow her stupid and misleading emotions.

I absolute hate how RD tries to retcon PoR, making daein look like the "good guys" and how it tries to make us forget all the terrible war crimes daein did on the first game.

You mean things that if she didn't do, would've caused Daein to enter Civil War, with people siding with both Micaiah and Pelleas's point of view and left Daein to be eradicated by the Blood Pact?

Most of the Daein's who terrorized Crimea are dead, since you killed them in PoR. Most of the Daein's in RD are people who weren't involved in Daein's occupation of Crimea, so it's really no retcon. And what war crimes?

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How does invading Daein first make the Daein forces in Crimea weaker? If anything, news that the army they're fighting devastated their homeland would only make them fight harder. And seriously? Daein wiped out Crimea's forces and was subjugating it's people, and there was a lengthy gap between Daein ending Crimea's resistance and Ike invading Daein. It shouldn't count as the same war! And while I can't blame them for wanting Crimea back, I can blame them for devastating Daein, since it was obvious that Ashnard wasn't there, and he was the target they were gunning for.

In theory, killing Ashnard, who they thought was on Daein, would weak Daein's army. Also, the ones that devasted daein the most were the daein army themselves. Just look at talrega and how terribly daein handled the situation, while Ike trying to help the citizens, that denied the help. The ONLY objective of Ike and Elincia was to reconquer Crimea. They thought that invading Daein, their army would retreat from Crimea, which didn't happen because Ashnard couldn't care less about his own country. Also, Deain never stop following Ike and Elincia, so the war obviously never stopped. If they never declared peace, the war never ended. Just look at real life exemples and you will see it was always like that. WW2 wasn't diveded in two wars just because on the first half Germany was wining and then on the second half it was losing. And no, it wasn't obvious Ashnard wasn't in Daein. EVERYONE in the game thought he was there. I completely believe that Daein was 100% to blame for the war. For me, if you invade another country, you are the one to blame, and any retaliation from the invaded country is justified.

Are you seriously trying to say that Ike and Elincia are wrong for trying to take their country back from some insane king that killed almost the entire population of his country just to be crowned?

Crimea was right, Daein was wrong, there's no way to warp that.

Edited by Nobody

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I absolute hate how RD tries to retcon PoR, making daein look like the "good guys" and how it tries to make us forget all the terrible war crimes daein did on the first game.

lol cuz another Point of View is just so terrible, right? Pretty sure Part 2 reminds us of how Crimea still views Daein. Especially when they get wind of Pelleas being a thing, Elincia's council goes nigh apeshit. Despite everything, Daein is still a nation full of civilians who had little to do with the war at large and were being put into camps by an occupying force. (which wasnt Crimea, mind) This isnt actually a retcon at all. In the first game, we see first hand what happened to civilians in Daein during the chapter in Talrega. Sothe in PoR even mentions to Ike in a base convo about how his old friends felt about the "invading forces". Its been there all along, mate.

As for Micaiah, she got hit with the Bad Writing Stick pretty hard by Part 4 and this really soured her character for me. Her reveal about being the lost Apostle was just...awful. Micaiah herself got placed on back burner in order for Yune to exist. She gets no real character development in Part 4 and that sucks. As a unit, Micaiah can be incredibly useful, but shes not about frontline fighting and for a main character, thats unusual and even a little janky to get her to high levels. Poor Micaiah cant take a hit worth shit. She makes for a good healer though. Thanybombing in Part 1 is funzies.

As for Sothe, i dont like his character at all. I think hes a putz and way too up in Micaiah's dome. "Im just going to grab you when shit gets real, yo!" Dude, what about her personal agency and wants? Way to put me off of you, Sothe! There are times where Asshole Has A Point like when he calls Pelleas out and junk, but hes just...eagh. As a unit, Sothe is pretty dang useful until he falls flat after Part 3. In Part 1, he can do three things. Act as a meat shield to level your DB guys. He can steal and thats neato. Plus he can murder. Sothe becomes a little less useful in Part 3 but is still serviceable. Part 4, you are probably wishing this guy wasnt forced.

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I'm happy micaiah lost light in part 4.

At least she kept her mouth shut.

Edited by Nobody

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In theory, killing Ashnard, who they thought was on Daein, would weak Daein's army. Also, the ones that devasted daein the most were the daein army themselves. Just look at talrega and how terribly daein handled the situation, while Ike trying to help the citizens, that denied the help. The ONLY objective on Ike and Elincia was to reconquer Crimea. They thought that invading Daein, their army would retreat from Crimea, which didn't happen because Ashnard couldn't care less about his own country. Also, Deain never stop following Ike and Elincia, so the war obviously never stopped. If they never declared peace, the war never ended. Just look at real life exemples and you will see it was always like that. WW2 wasn't diveded in two wars just because on the first half Germany was wining and then on the second half it was losing. And no, it wasn't obvious Ashnard wasn't in Daein. EVERYONE in the game thought he was there. I completely believe that Daein was 100% to blame for the war. For me, if you invade another country, you are the one to blame, and any retaliation from the invaded country is justified.

Are you seriously trying to say that Ike and Elincia are wrong for trying to take their country back from some insane king that killed almost the entire population of his country just to be crowned?

Crimea was right, Daein was wrong, there's no way to warp that.

And as far as the population of Daein knows, Crimea flooded Talrega. And denying help from the guy that just ordered your homes destroyed seems reasonable, maybe he poisoned the food. Forgot about that. Daein did stop following Elincia. There's that gap of Chapters 14-17, where Daein is a complete nonentity. And they didn't need to declare peace. Crimea's rulers were dead, it had no forces to fight back with, the population were accepting Daein as their new rulers. They won. Then a few months later, Begnion forces under Elincia's command invade Daein. This isn't a continuation of the previous battles fought by Daein to claim Crimea, this is a different fight. In World War 2, there was no cease in the fighting. Sure the tide of the war turned, but the fight was constantly ongoing on at least one front, but here there's a point where the fighting for Crimea stopped, and a point where it started up again. And it was obvious Ashnard was in Crimea. He would have to oversee the progress of his occupation and set the laws of his regime up, and it's quicker to do that when you're in the country. Just because the characters are idiots who didn't think of it doesn't make it not obvious.

And yes Daein was 100% at fault, Crimea was right to claim their country back but I don't see any war crimes committed by Daein.

And no, I have never suggested that Ike and Elincia are in the wrong for claiming Crimea back. I'm saying that it's partly their fault for Daein's condition, since they could've elected to enter Crimea directly and attempting to free the country by driving the occupying army out. Sure, we know that Ashnard was there and they'd probably have failed, but the option was available to them.

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It got to the point where all of a sudden Micaiah is the true Apostle that just turned me off of liking her as a character period.

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And yes Daein was 100% at fault, Crimea was right to claim their country back

Then Micaiah had no reason to complain about Ike.

And no, I have never suggested that Ike and Elincia are in the wrong for claiming Crimea back. I'm saying that it's partly their fault for Daein's condition, since they could've elected to enter Crimea directly and attempting to free the country by driving the occupying army out. Sure, we know that Ashnard was there and they'd probably have failed, but the option was available to them.

So, you're saying they should have picked a much riskier strategy, just in order to avoid harming a country that STARTED THE WAR?

You're really naive, war doesn't work like that.

Edited by Nobody

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It got to the point where all of a sudden Micaiah is the true Apostle that just turned me off of liking her as a character period.

Yeah. This is THE POINT right here that made me really freaking facepalm. Micaiah being the real Apostle itself isnt that bad. Its how it was revealed that just plain fucking SUCKED. All the sudden, Sanaki goes "Sister! You are my big sister!" and Micaiah is just like "oh yeah, totes! I just...knew it." WHAT?! Lekain gives us some really badly rushed dialogue earlier about Sanaki having a sister at one point, but it does not make this whole "reveal" any less of a total ass pull.

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Yeah. This is THE POINT right here that made me really freaking facepalm. Micaiah being the real Apostle itself isnt that bad. Its how it was revealed that just plain fucking SUCKED. All the sudden, Sanaki goes "Sister! You are my big sister!" and Micaiah is just like "oh yeah, totes! I just...knew it." WHAT?! Lekain gives us some really badly rushed dialogue earlier about Sanaki having a sister at one point, but it does not make this whole "reveal" any less of a total ass pull.

Sure wish it would have been revealed earlier in the game to actually warm us up to the fact.

It's like putting a frozen item in an oven; if you have it set too high a temperature, then the item won't be as appetizing, considering it'll still be cold on the inside. And the outside would be burnt to a crisp.

Edited by Cal the Tactician

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It amuses me to no end that people can call Micaiah a Mary Sue when she keeps failing in Part 3 and her entire character is completely replaced by Yune.

Which brings me to the conclusion that they haven't actually played the game and are just jumping on the hate bandwagon.

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Yeah. This is THE POINT right here that made me really freaking facepalm. Micaiah being the real Apostle itself isnt that bad. Its how it was revealed that just plain fucking SUCKED. All the sudden, Sanaki goes "Sister! You are my big sister!" and Micaiah is just like "oh yeah, totes! I just...knew it." WHAT?! Lekain gives us some really badly rushed dialogue earlier about Sanaki having a sister at one point, but it does not make this whole "reveal" any less of a total ass pull.

This, I couldn't stand Failcaiah as a Lord unit. (Shitty unit + game over unit dies= FUCK) But when this happened I was like: "Fuck this shit!" And I promptly broke the disk and not one single fuck was given over not finishing the game that day.

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It amuses me to no end that people can call Micaiah a Mary Sue when she keeps failing in Part 3 and her entire character is completely replaced by Yune.

Which brings me to the conclusion that they haven't actually played the game and are just jumping on the hate bandwagon.

It's her Part 1 that I have issue with, not her Part 3.

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It amuses me to no end that people can call Micaiah a Mary Sue when she keeps failing in Part 3 and her entire character is completely replaced by Yune.

Which brings me to the conclusion that they haven't actually played the game and are just jumping on the hate bandwagon.

Well, the reasom i hate Micaiah is because of her flaws.

I'd like her 15 times more if she was a mary sue (and 60 times more of she was a mute unit - FE1 style)

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Then Micaiah had no reason to complain about Ike.

Which she never does. She complains that Sothe never shuts up about the guy, not about the guy himself.

So, you're saying they should have picked a much riskier strategy, just in order to avoid harming a country that STARTED THE WAR?

You're really naive, war doesn't work like that.

Even if it was completely justified to ruin Daein, which it was, it's still their fault that it's in such a state.

And it's not just to avoid damaging the country that started the war. Let's say Ashnard and the bulk of his forces were in Daein, like they assumed. So they fight all the way to Nevassa, fighting way more people than they do ingame, and then fight Ashnard and the Four Riders, and all the other Generals he has there. And if they win against the unlikely odds there, they'd have to fight their way into Crimea, where the occupational army would meet them. If Ashnard and the bulk of the Daein forces were in Daein, they'd have lost, since they wouldn't have all the forces Gallia and Pheonics lent them, as well as none of the Crimea soldiers they freed from prison camps.

If Ashnard was in Daein, it'd be much less risky to enter Crimea directly, without entering Daein, and freeing imprisoned Crimean soldiers from prison camps to bolster their forces, then fighting off the Daein Occupational Army first, and after reclaiming Crimea, demanding retribution from Ashnard. Hell, this'd work even with Ashnard in Daein, since they'd be able to meet up with forces from Gallia much more easily, and would be able to free soldiers, giving them a much larger force to do battle the Occupational Army with.

And entering Crimea first would mean Daein wouldn't get to damage it as much, so reconstruction would be a lot quicker too. So it'd be much less risky for them to enter Crimea without invading Daein first.

And you still haven't said what any of the war crimes Daein committed are.

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The experiment on the Laguz that were happening in that tower were war crimes. Also, didn't daein arrest civilians and destroyed several villages in Crimea?

Edited by Nobody

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The experiment on the Laguz that were happening in that tower were war crimes. Also, didn't daein arrest civilians and destroyed several villages in Crimea?

There's no indication Tellius has had equivalents of the Hague and Geneva Conventions. While those things might be War Crimes to us, the last two are explicitly not war crimes.

Soren, Path of Radiance, Chapter 21

...You truly have no idea how to rule a nation. Do you know what happens to a country that loses a war? Everything is destroyed. Homes, land, crops...everything. And the citizens... They're not even treated as human. Crimeans, especially those near the capital where Daein's presence is strongest, are treated worse than sub-hum...than laguz.

Given that all countries apparently do it, and there's no mention of them being war crimes, they're not war crimes in Tellius, and given that it's the first time it happened, the experiments on Laguz aren't War Crimes in Tellius either since there was no precedence to declare them as such.

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This, I couldn't stand Failcaiah as a Lord unit. (Shitty unit + game over unit dies= FUCK) But when this happened I was like: "Fuck this shit!" And I promptly broke the disk and not one single fuck was given over not finishing the game that day.

But you only find that out after beating the game.

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There's no indication Tellius has had equivalents of the Hague and Geneva Conventions. While those things might be War Crimes to us, the last two are explicitly not war crimes.

Soren, Path of Radiance, Chapter 21

...You truly have no idea how to rule a nation. Do you know what happens to a country that loses a war? Everything is destroyed. Homes, land, crops...everything. And the citizens... They're not even treated as human. Crimeans, especially those near the capital where Daein's presence is strongest, are treated worse than sub-hum...than laguz.

Given that all countries apparently do it, and there's no mention of them being war crimes, they're not war crimes in Tellius, and given that it's the first time it happened, the experiments on Laguz aren't War Crimes in Tellius either since there was no precedence to declare them as such.

I was obviously talking about what I see as war crimes, so you're just arguing semantics now.

What matters is that the OP asked why people dislike Micaiah, and I explained in a perfect reasonable way why I hate her, as simple as that.

This argument has no point, and it feels like you're trying to make me like a character I absolutely despise, for explainable reasons.

Also, your post explains exactly why I hate Micaiah so much. Daein treated the Crimean citizens in the worst possible way, yet she acts as if her country is the only one where people are suffering. Her hypocrisy and lack of empathy for anyone that is not from daein is what makes me hate her.

Edited by Nobody

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This, I couldn't stand Failcaiah as a Lord unit. (Shitty unit + game over unit dies= FUCK) But when this happened I was like: "Fuck this shit!" And I promptly broke the disk and not one single fuck was given over not finishing the game that day.

She's not so bad she deserves that stupid name. It's not hard to keep her alive at all and her healing and wrath-blick potential make her mid-tier at the lowest. Upper mid is more reasonable. "Fail" nicnames should be reserved for trash like Lyre and Fiona.

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Micaiah could have been such a great character. A selfish jerk, borderline evil lord, in contrast to the goody-two-shoes we normally see? Intriguing! But the execution left much to be desired.

1) Mary Sue powers up the yin-yang. It obfuscated the real reason why everyone worships Micaiah - their situation is so shitty they NEED to believe in a powerful saviour to raise morale. The Priestess of Dawn need not actually have mystical powers.

2) Don't try to make us like her (and Daein) so much! It had the opposite effect to me, and I haven't even played PoR. Especially that "Ashnard never tried to destroy Crimea!" thing.

3) being the true apostle. Literal Hitler's subplot could have happened irregardless and rewrite the rules concerning what happens when the gods are released.

4) Give her something to do in part 4 apart from being Yune's meat puppet. In fact, was that even necessary? Yune could manifest a visible form and telepathically talk to people.

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She's not so bad she deserves that stupid name. It's not hard to keep her alive at all and her healing and wrath-blick potential make her mid-tier at the lowest. Upper mid is more reasonable. "Fail" nicnames should be reserved for trash like Lyre and Fiona.

It's funny how often the nickname "Failcaiah" comes up when it's not any kind of clever juxtaposition of words at all, just replacing the first syllable of her name with "fail." Like, no one can come up with a better insult? At least Rofl for Rolf actually used his name.

Sword Art Online tier for Lyre!

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It's funny how often the nickname "Failcaiah" comes up when it's not any kind of clever juxtaposition of words at all, just replacing the first syllable of her name with "fail." Like, no one can come up with a better insult? At least Rofl for Rolf actually used his name.

Sword Art Online tier for Lyre!

dickaiah

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Yeah, they should show some originality. For example, Midaiah* for a rhyming pun, or Mifrailah for a written pun. Tisuah maybe?

*(Because she's so dire! If I'm misremembering her pronunciation and it doesn't actually rhyme, please disregard.)

(Pedit: Banzai, are you even trying?)

What's the story behind that tier name?

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It's her Part 1 that I have issue with, not her Part 3.

Micaiah's Part 3 is actually quite interesting. Her Part 1 is kinda meh but i was willing to suspend my disbelief. Her Part 4...gods her Part 4...I needed that like i needed a hole in my head.

But you only find that out after beating the game.

Which is actually part of the problem to be honest. RD handles some specific and spoilery story elements in a very shit manner. Ranulf's reveal about the BK was something i have always had a huge issue with. So its not limited to Micaiah. For proper foreshadowing of Micaiah's true identity to be better thought out, we could have received some information about Altina and the successor Apostles sooner. The stuff we got in the Tower was a bit vague and i think it would have been cooler had Micaiah herself reacted to this instead of Yune. That, and we dont get information about how the true Apostle was smuggled out of Begnion in the first place. Even Sephiran's reveal as Lehran was a bit ehhh. But at least that one almost made sense. Ya know? Micaiah's true identity feels like it comes out of fucking nowhere. What i did like, was Sanaki's conflict about not being able to sing the Galdr of Rebirth. Her discussing it with Sigrun and Tanith was pretty cool. I wish we had more interaction between her and Micaiah (not Yune) in order to really build up to the reveal.

Then Micaiah had no reason to complain about Ike.

I actually found her complaining about Ike to be pretty solid. To her and to other DBs, Ike was an invading force. Sothe sings his praises because he was in Ike's team at one point. Sothe had the benefit of seeing both sides. You see Sothe get upset over the way Begnion occupies Daein, but he also knows how the other side (Crimea and Ike) felt and dealt with the situation. Something Micaiah didnt have. If she had agreed with Sothe and went "Well i guess Ike was a pretty cool guy who didnt afraid of anything." it would really feel half assed and further plant Ike into Sue Territory.

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