Have your opinion of awakeing changed?

[XeKr]

This comes down to the principle of dominant strategy in game design, which dictates that a player will always use the most optimal solution that the designer allows him/her to use. Obviously no one forces you to grind, and personally I don't grind in normal runs, but it's a matter of the theoretical 'if they can, they will'. If the designers didn't want us to use Reeking Boxes, they shouldn't have put them in the game, and why should I care if you think it takes 'strength' not to use them? They're there, so why shouldn't I use them? It's just a basic principle of game design.

It's like Megaman 2 without using the Metal Blade. Sure, I could do that if I want a challenge out of the game, but the average player is just going to use it because it destroys everything, and because they can.

Anyway the problem isn't that 'grinding is a possibility', that'd just be stupid, so obviously I did a poor job of explaining myself. The problem is that you can so easily grind so high that the difficulty level becomes nonexistent. Grinding in a game like Pokemon is boring, but it takes much, much longer than veteran+EP-tanking a couple of Risen encounters to make the MU give zero shits about anything until after the endgame.

EDIT: And just to clarify, I KNOW this was deliberate; IS obviously self-sabotaged the difficulty of a notoriously-difficult (for beginners, anyway) series in order to make it appeal to the masses. I get that. It doesn't mean the game wasn't worse than it could have been as a result.

The map is actually the real problem here because it facilitates easy grinding while the plot sits on its ass and waits for you to come back to it, 30 levels and 2-3 reclassings later. I don't really have a problem with the map at all except to say that it shouldn't have been available until postgame.

Isn't one of the biggest criticisms of Sacred Stones that it's too easy? Isn't one of the reasons that it's too easy is because you can choose to hold off the plot for grinding exp in the Tower of Valni? (or wherever else, that was just the place I used to grind)

Anyway, I still don't know that I'm really explaining myself properly, I probably did a clearer job talking about these things in my dA review of Awakening. Hooray for shameless plugs but whatever it's not like these things haven't been said a million times before anyway

Dominant strategies are a thing in game theory, assuming the players are rational and solely want to win/maximize utility or w/e. Fun, however, is hugely subjective and so there is no general dominant strategy (and you’re playing an AI…). This is especially relevant since you seem to be arguing players in general will deliberately and irrationally adopt what may be un-fun strategies (to them), because they’re optimal. An interesting claim… (to be clear, some players enjoy grinding or the otherwise “optimal” strats, and this doesn’t apply to them. You seem to be implying grinding is not fun, or the consequence is not fun, yet people will do it anyway. People do a lot of stuff, for a lot of reasons.)

You appear to be aware that developers are primarily concerned with some audience that will buy their game; one manner of dealing with this is to add options to appeal to more people. However, there is no reason for you, or anyone, to disparage options outside your preference, if your preferred option is still present.

Let me pose a question to you: Are all difficulty modes besides Normal/Casual (take other FE games, if you want) irrelevant because of “principle of dominant strategy”? Why would anyone play different difficulty modes if they can destroy everything easily in Normal/Casual? It’s there, it’s easy, so gamers should all be playing it, no?

Also the point has been made, but I'll reiterate: are all characters besides Marcus/other prepromos irrelevant in FE7? Are all characters besides Seth/other prepromos irrelevant in FE8? Etc. They do steamroll the game and newer players would realize it faster if there wasn't such a long-standing "exp-hog" stigma.

The existence of dominant options, in a strategic sense, does not necessarily diminish other options, particularly in other senses and particularly in single player. Also applies for casual vs. hardcore options.

Re: FE8 grinding. Very few people (here) take that criticism seriously, to my knowledge. I (like to) think we try and call out people with the whole “my taste/way to play > your taste/way to play” rants. Besides, I’m seeing quite a bit of Sacred Stones love nowadays.

And to be blunt, while the subjective points are your opinion, your assessment of Lunatic (in your review) is ignorant, more than anything. You don’t need Frederick to solo a quarter of the game. You don’t need to grind. Moreover, Risen encounters both are actually harder than story chapters, and scale in difficulty faster. Other grinding methods outside DLC are hugely nerfed in Lunatic(+). Veteran is indeed broken, though this ties back into the earlier points (it’s as broken as you want it. We can draw an analogy to a few of the better Jagens). Even still, it (or Avatar, or Nosferatu, or w/e) is not necessary in any capacity to reliably beat Lunatic.

EDIT:

Re: World map complaint. Fair enough, though note there’s tons and tons of ways (i.e. why can you arena for 100 turns when Roy is supposed to be saving Ostia and Lilina? Or when defending Ninian from the Black Fang) to break immersion in FE. Many other RPGs are also infamous for tons of sidequests, many opening just before the final dungeon/boss. It depends on one’s personal suspension of disbelief, and the generally favorable reaction to C10 (despite the dissonant “ooh-shiny-new-paralogue” sentiment) suggests it doesn’t bother most people. maybe that's b/c of the music tho.

Edited April 19, 2014 by XeKr

[arvilino]

LOL well incidentally I have a similar gripe with Sacred Stones, but that's another discussion.

Are the SS Seth runs you're referring to easily done by new players, or are they a thing that experienced/expert players do to prove they can? If it's the latter then this is a moot point, because I'm talking about the general consumption of the game by average players. Hardcore FE players like the ones found on SF are by far the minority among the FE fanbase or potential target market.

But if a new player to the game/franchise can pick up Sacred Stones and do a Hard Mode run with prepremotes with no trouble (which honestly wouldn't surprise me), then point conceded.

AS for the Golden Tanuki thing...

That you can still die in pits with the suit is also beside the point. The point is that it eliminates all but the simplest obstacles for a player so that the crying little babies Nintendo apparently thinks are its primary market can beat pretty much any level no matter the difficulty. (Frankly I'm not sure why there's any disagreement on the topic of the suit specifically; it's pretty straightforwardly a highly patronizing tool to eliminate difficulty for whiny players.)

^{((BTW I haven't played Mario 3D World so I can't comment on that game; I'm just going on what I know from Mario 3D Land.))}

Obviously Fire Emblem is too complex for any such aforementioned 'babies', even Awakening, but Awakening DOES baby its players in a comparable fashion to that of the golden tanuki.

Personally the only whiny players I've seen in regards to the Golden Tanuki suit are it's detractors. It takes nothing away from the game from those players and encourages the player to have 5 attempts at the level before offering assistance.

Fire Emblem has had crutches like that for new players for a long time, for example the pre-promotes and Oswin in Fire Emblem 7 are more than strong enough to carry the player through to the next prepromote who is usually even better.

[Nodachi]

I now find the strategy part a bit lacking in lower difficulties and overpowering in higher (that is to say, chapter one through 3 plus endgame) although not too tough in the end. I also think it's a dating game in disguise :P

I love it though and it is my favorite game on the 3ds. A thing I would want to change about the game is obviously the story and the large emphasis on grinding instead of pure tactics (seriously, I think Nintendo and intelligent systems really need to work on that)

[TheFreshestSlice]

It's probably Lyon. Awakening is badly lacking in the villain department, SS's story was nothing special but Lyon stood out in it as one of the best villains in the series. Especially if you've played through both Eirika and Ephraim's routes.

Useless gray circles aren't a problem. Problems start when the game opens up a flashy new paralogue that has absolutely nothing to do with the main plot while Chrom and co. are supposed to be fleeing for their lives from Plegia. It's bad enough to be able to put off fleeing from Plegia to trash some bandits in the far reaches of Ferox, but the game actually encourages you to do it by putting a Paralogue right there. If this were Blazing Sword where paralogues are only accessible at one point and if you miss them, they can't be redone, would it make any sense at all to have Eliwood take a break from looking for his father on Valor to go hunt bandits in Etruria without any acknowledgement of the rest of the story? SS had the decency to disable the map when there was something going on that can't be ignored, such as an ambush by Valter.

Optional content is by definition optional. Criticizing a game for something that is not in its parameters to make you do is again, a criticism of yourself. The game doesn't say, "Recruit Donnel now mofo or I'mmaendyou," it doesn't even tell you Donnel is there. It doesn't tell you what kind of unit he is, it's just a green circle with a name, which will not catch your eye more than the red one it clearly points out for you to go to next. Paralogues are your choice, and the only person who makes you go to them, is yourself. If the option to do things beside the main story infuriates you so, then well....I really don't even know what to say.

[Constable Reggie]

I think ive maintained the same opinion since my first playthrough of the game: a solid entry, but disappointing in the aspects I most care about. Gameplay is lots of fun if unbalanced (not an issue if it's still fun: see Fe5), but story and character development are severely lacking for FE standards. Not anywhere near the best of the FEs, but definitely not the worst either.

[BANRYU]

Only the first 8 worlds in Super Mario 3D Land allow you to use the special suits. The latter 8 worlds don't have it at all.

Not to mention you have to beat every level normally if you want to actually 100% the game.

Personally the only whiny players I've seen in regards to the Golden Tanuki suit are it's detractors. It takes nothing away from the game from those players and encourages the player to have 5 attempts at the level before offering assistance.

Fire Emblem has had crutches like that for new players for a long time, for example the pre-promotes and Oswin in Fire Emblem 7 are more than strong enough to carry the player through to the next prepromote who is usually even better.

(@ Jave) That's fine, but for the average consumer (IE, kids or extremely-casual gamers) they're not likely to care about the 8 extra worlds, especially if they've gotten by on the crutch of the golden suit for the harder levels of the game.

(@ both) I just feel like games do themselves a disservice when they give players such an easy out for the obstacles they spent their time and money creating. As you can probably tell, I have very strong opinions on the subject of the challenge in games; I maintain that a more difficult challenge (as long as it's fair) is always going to be more edifying to overcome-- ALWAYS.

...but... ...I guess it's just a product of the current era of gaming culture. Looking at it from a broader scope, I guess allowing younger kids or more casual gamers a chance to enjoy the game more freely is something to be embraced in its own way. I guess I'm not giving enough credit to the human/consumer element... ...if a young kid DOES beat a game with the GTS and decides he wants to skip using it next time, well, good for him. I've actually watched my little brother develop in a similar manner... (though admittedly he was probably pretty heavily influenced by my biased ass lol)

tl;dr (I actually did read it all though)

I have nothing to say in response except that you've made your point well. I tried to be objective on most of my points, but you're right that the whole 'dominant strategy' argument only goes so far and I may have been trying to extend it further than it can feasibly go.

As for my review... Yeah, you're absolutely right, my perspective on Lunatic is 100% ignorant as I've never played it. ~__~ I shouldn't bitch about it as though I know when I haven't tried it. I DO think (and know from the accounts of others) that Lunatic+ at least is a pretty stupid RNG-fest but I should get my points straight before I do so. I'll go back and fix that in my review eventually or whenever I figure out how to say it properly...

[Sunwoo]

You should definitely play lunatic before you start complaining about it.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

yeah atleast give lunatic a shot before you talk about it, like myself.

which in my opinion lunatic is fine difficulty wise, what isn't fine is that there's a massive jump in difficulty change from Hard to Lunatic. i feel like there should be a difficulty in between the two, like with what FE11 and 12 did.

[Jave]

(@ Jave) That's fine, but for the average consumer (IE, kids or extremely-casual gamers) they're not likely to care about the 8 extra worlds, especially if they've gotten by on the crutch of the golden suit for the harder levels of the game.

(@ both) I just feel like games do themselves a disservice when they give players such an easy out for the obstacles they spent their time and money creating. As you can probably tell, I have very strong opinions on the subject of the challenge in games; I maintain that a more difficult challenge (as long as it's fair) is always going to be more edifying to overcome-- ALWAYS.

...but... ...I guess it's just a product of the current era of gaming culture. Looking at it from a broader scope, I guess allowing younger kids or more casual gamers a chance to enjoy the game more freely is something to be embraced in its own way. I guess I'm not giving enough credit to the human/consumer element... ...if a young kid DOES beat a game with the GTS and decides he wants to skip using it next time, well, good for him. I've actually watched my little brother develop in a similar manner... (though admittedly he was probably pretty heavily influenced by my biased ass lol)

I think a better question is, why do you care so much how others play their games? This is the exact same mentality of the people who get pissed off when others reset every time they lose a character in Fire Emblem. The exact same.

I also maintain that people who complain about Super Guide/Golden Tanooki haven't even bothered to play the games it's implemented on. It allows people to skip whole levels, sure, but there are definitely consequences on using it.

[Airship Canon]

I know it's off topic but...

P Wing > Golden Tanooki.

P Wing = Broken.

Golden Tanooki doesn't even come close.

[Roivann]

I know it's off topic but...

P Wing > Golden Tanooki.

P Wing = Broken.

Golden Tanooki doesn't even come close.

DUDE THE FUKKEN P WING

At least you can't get them every level.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Optional content is by definition optional. Criticizing a game for something that is not in its parameters to make you do is again, a criticism of yourself. The game doesn't say, "Recruit Donnel now mofo or I'mmaendyou," it doesn't even tell you Donnel is there. It doesn't tell you what kind of unit he is, it's just a green circle with a name, which will not catch your eye more than the red one it clearly points out for you to go to next. Paralogues are your choice, and the only person who makes you go to them, is yourself. If the option to do things beside the main story infuriates you so, then well....I really don't even know what to say.

I have no problem with optional content. What I have a problem with is it being introduced with timing that has no respect for the mandatory part of the game, when it could have just as easily been put somewhere better.

[BANRYU]

I think a better question is, why do you care so much how others play their games? This is the exact same mentality of the people who get pissed off when others reset every time they lose a character in Fire Emblem. The exact same.

I don't... think that I do...? People can play a game however they want, I'm not intending to tyrannize playstyles or anything like that. TBH I don't really see where you're coming from in saying this, so I'm a little confused. :0 What did I say to make you think this?

I also maintain that people who complain about Super Guide/Golden Tanooki haven't even bothered to play the games it's implemented on. It allows people to skip whole levels, sure, but there are definitely consequences on using it.

Not true for me. *shrug* I played Mario 3D Land and I'd heard about the whole Golden Tanuki thing previously, so whenever the game offered it to me I usually rejected it. In one of the later Castle levels that I was struggling with, I caved and used it, then immediately felt dirty about beating the level with it so I did it again without it.

What kind of consequences are we talking here? Because I certainly don't remember there being any opportunity costs associated with it. :0

P Wing > Golden Tanooki.

But can't you still get hurt with the P-wing? :0 P-wing might yield better results but you also need more skill to use it effectively IIRC. My criticism with the Golden Tanuki is that it eliminates any need for 90% of the skill you normally need to beat a level. Granted... just flying above the stage can be pretty straightforward and not require any skill... but doesn't that mean that levels with ceilings and a lot of obstacles (like castles/fortresses) are still pretty difficult...? *shrug* I don't remember SMB3 that well TBH but yeah

[spoiler=I'm probably taking this comment too seriously though]

The Joke

my head

Edited April 21, 2014 by BANRYU

[TheFreshestSlice]

I have no problem with optional content. What I have a problem with is it being introduced with timing that has no respect for the mandatory part of the game, when it could have just as easily been put somewhere better.

There really is no better time for something that's optional and always available throughout the entire game, after a certain point. If it were mandatory, I would see the point, but as is, it hardly even matters in the grand scheme that matters even less.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Paralogues aren't available throughout the entire game though, they only become available after a certain chapter. Why introduce them at a point where they'd be disruptive to the plot if played immediately when you could introduce them at a point that would be much less so with no extra effort? The post-Cht.9 paralogue is arguably at the place where it's most disruptive if played immediately.

Hardly matters? True, Awakening has scores of bigger problems, but it still bugs me and therefore I consider it a problem.

[arvilino]

Paralogues aren't available throughout the entire game though, they only become available after a certain chapter. Why introduce them at a point where they'd be disruptive to the plot if played immediately when you could introduce them at a point that would be much less so with no extra effort? The post-Cht.9 paralogue is arguably at the place where it's most disruptive if played immediately.

Hardly matters? True, Awakening has scores of bigger problems, but it still bugs me and therefore I consider it a problem.

Maybe some players would prefer a slightly more light hearted chapter after the events of chapter 9. Chapter 9 is also one of the more harsher chapters at that point in the game(with the reinforcements) so a paralogue with a second pre-promote to recruit(Anna) is a good spot game play wise.

Edited April 21, 2014 by arvilino

[Tamanoir]

yeah atleast give lunatic a shot before you talk about it, like myself.

which in my opinion lunatic is fine difficulty wise, what isn't fine is that there's a massive jump in difficulty change from Hard to Lunatic. i feel like there should be a difficulty in between the two, like with what FE11 and 12 did.

Normal should be Easy, Hard should be Normal and they should add a Hard Mode.

While they didn't made it works as well as they could, I'm still glad they offers the options.

I think it's one of the most positive thing with Awakening : trying to offer an experience for all type of playersd, from beginners to veteran. Loike many things with Awakening, it doesn't work as well as it should, but at least they made the effort.

Now let's makes thing clear :

If you play with the DLC on Normal/Casual Mode, you have no freaking right to complain about the game's difficulty.

If you play it on Hard/Classic (which is the closest we have to a normal experience, I'd say the difficulty isn't that different from Sacred Stone, at least grinding-wise. Not sure if Spotpass should be counted, but it's still generally a greater challenge with a great reward, so I'd say it's more or less fair game.

That doesn't stop all the other issue of the game, like Pairing Up being insanely broken (though fun to use) or the lackluster maps, but compalining about the difficulty is a little too easy (pun not intended, but fully accepted).

[DragonLord]

Definitely over-glorified by some of the newer fans. I just didn't like the story as much as some of the previous games, and the difficulty was flawed. DLC was okay, but kind of a cash-grab in my opinion. Overall, I think it's an okay FE game.

[Roivann]

Definitely over-glorified by some of the newer fans. I just didn't like the story as much as some of the previous games, and the difficulty was flawed. DLC was okay, but kind of a cash-grab in my opinion. Overall, I think it's an okay FE game.

Well, I don't think that IS would really deny that the game was a cash grab. It served its purpose as a last try to bring the series back, and frankly, it served that purpose well, while in turn providing a decently enjoyable experience for longer-time fans of the series.

EDIT: Just realized you were talking about the DLC, not the game as a whole. Yeah, spending more on DLC than on the base game isn't really my idea of a fun time either. Not that I didn't buy every last DLC chapter like the sucker I am.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Rollertoaster

[Duke of Dozel]

As much as I generally dislike the quality of the DLC, I'm tempted to buy some: specifically limit breaker and Dread Fighter.

So yeah, it's kind of a cash grab.

[Jave]

Not true for me. *shrug* I played Mario 3D Land and I'd heard about the whole Golden Tanuki thing previously, so whenever the game offered it to me I usually rejected it. In one of the later Castle levels that I was struggling with, I caved and used it, then immediately felt dirty about beating the level with it so I did it again without it.

What kind of consequences are we talking here? Because I certainly don't remember there being any opportunity costs associated with it. :0

Using a Golden Tanuki effectively gives that level a "mark of shame" until you come back and beat it normally. In order to unlock the very last level in the game, which is required for 100%, you have to beat every level with both Mario and Luigi, get the top of the flagpole, and collect the three gold medals. Beating any level with the golden tanuki or golden P-Wing essentially prevents you from doing this.

[Moira]

Is it really fair to call this game over hyped because a lot of new fans go on and on about it? I mean, it's getting the hype because they enjoyed it so much. Just because some people don't believe it's quality warrants such high praise, it did bring a lot of enjoyment to a lot of people. Why else would they be making hype about it? The problem is when people take more than a grain of salt from what people say. What others say is based on their experiences, and it's going to be different for you. Naturally people who have played the series more are going to want higher quality. You need fresh and new while also wanting some of the things you love about the series. For new fans, it's all new and exciting, and can you really blame them for not really enjoying their first Fire Emblem experience so much, even if you think the game isn't as good as others? I'm sure we all remember how exciting our first game was. Of course I'm not saying the game doesn't have flaws (what game doesn't?) and it's ok to talk about them. Finally, even if it's not a super amazing Fire Emblem game, it sitll is a Fire Emblem game, and that earns it high praise in my book.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

well was it fair to call something like Naruto or Bleach overhyped back in the day when it first came out? i say so.

and while it still is a fairly decent game, that mindset of "well as long as it has the title of the franchise on it, its still deserves praise and your money" is very dangerous territory.

i mean lets look at Metriod other M, which its gameplay along with its questionable story split the fanbase apart and the series is on life support, not having another game within 4 years or so.

lets also look at DmC: Devil May Cry, which might as well been devil may cry in name only, the few returning characters didn't act like how they normally did, along with an offensive and disgusting story, less complexed game play that also ran at 30 frames per second when the previous games ran at 60 frames per second and a director that insulted the older fans of the series, this resulted in the fans not buying the game, the game failing, the future of an actual DMC game is questionable, and the director is now stuck making phone games and capcom announced they won't outsource their products anymore.

the only difference between these games and Awakening is that Awakening actually sold well, better then the both of the those other two games combined i'm sure of, i guaranteed you if this game had sold horrible, it would've been treated like DmC and Other M.

what my point is, that fans shouldn't blindly follow anything, less they want their franchise to become the next 'we'll release a game that's barely different then the last one" like CoD or Guitar Hero, the latter actually did die because of the fast production.

[Baldrick]

Whether a game is over, under or Goldilocks-rated will always be somewhat subjective. But individual parts of the game (gameplay, story etc.) can be critically analysed.

[Duke of Dozel]

Makalov actually brought some valid argument to the table.

If I recall correctly, DMC only sold around 1 Million, whereas Awakening is still being bought, easily exceeding 1 million in the west alone.

Since it wasn't a failure, and since it no doubt expanded the fan base, IS will most likely add in features from FEA into other games.

Let's hope the marriage system and time paradoxes are out

Edited April 22, 2014 by Duke of Dozel