General US Politics

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Imagine having a fantastic defense network of security built around your place of work and residence and you decide to build just one more wall to protect against peaceful protesters. This coming from the same guy who refuses to wear a mask despite it not being weird for world leaders to do so and then put it down when its time for a speech. Though if I had to guess, the wall isn't so much for defense as it is to visually obscure the crowds whenever Trump looks out the window. He's an emotionally fragile person, and probably expects the protests will only grow in intensity after his photo op stunt. Either way, shout outs to the people who use to say "y'know where we need to build a wall in this country? Around the white house to keep that maniac from coming in."

2 hours ago, XRay said:

I am still a bit surprised a lot of the religious right thought he was a Christian in the first place and voted whole heartedly for him.

Trump made virtually no effort to portray himself that way on the campaign trail. But that's 100% of the reason why Pence is his running mate. It's enough to have one god fearing man on trump's shoulder. Pray for the president's soul, and your prayers will reach him through Pence.

[Slumber]

Trump choosing to pose in front of what is EASILY the most liberal Christian denomination(Except maybe Unitarians) just shows how little he gives a shit about Christianity. He took a photo op in front of a church that was guaranteed to oppose everything he stood for, but it didn't matter to him because he couldn't tell an Episcopalian from an Evangelical.

[Excellen Browning]

Posting because relevant, it's the (new) charging document against Chauvin. http://openargs.com/wp-content/uploads/Complaint_Chauvin.pdf

Edited June 5, 2020 by Excellen Browning

[XRay]

5 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

Posting because relevant, it's the (new) charging document against Chauvin. http://openargs.com/wp-content/uploads/Complaint_Chauvin.pdf

@Shoblongoo or anyone else more knowledgeable on law, can you explain the difference between manslaughter and murder? I looked up murder on Wikipedia, but I am still confused. The gist I am getting is that murder is intentional and manslaughter is unintentional? But it seems like second degree murder is unintentional as well under Minnesota law, so how is that different from manslaughter? And if you get charged for second degree murder, do you automatically get charged for third degree murder as well?

While I think he should be charged and punished to the full extent of the law as possible, it just seems like we are charging him the same crime thrice which is something that is not allowed under the Constitution I think?

[Excellen Browning]

Murder requires intent, manslaughter doesn't. Manslaughter is also the catch-all for death due to other forms of culpability.

Prosecuting someone under several statutes for the same crime at the same time is normal. If he gets convicted, he's going to get convicted on one of these charges, not all three. This is done to avoid double jeopardy. Per example, if chauvin was only charged with 2nd degree murder, but the jury finds that it's not 2nd degree murder but a lesser crime, he'd get away scot-free, and would never be able to be prosecuted again for the same thing.

People don't always get charged with lesser crimes as well, that's up to the prosecutor's discretion. There are cases where the prosecution doesn't want to give the jury the option for convicting on a lesser crime, per example.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Excellen Browning

[Lewyn]

Good everyone is charged but again doesn't matter if they aren't convicted and thrown in prison.  The lowlife garbage father son duo who murdered Arbery had court hearing yesterday.  Apparently investigation found Arbery tried to continuously avoid the truck, and after Travis shot him 3 times stood over the body and said "f-kin' N word" which opens up to federal charges of hate crime as well.  These pieces of crap shot this guy like stepping on an ant, or swatting a fly, and just lived their lives like nothing happen for months until the video surfaced. 

Facebook is terrible to see how many racists there are.  Fox and the right wing media I almost exclusively blame them, most are just repeating Fox talking points and taking it a little further. 

 

[XRay]

On 6/5/2020 at 9:55 AM, Excellen Browning said:

Murder requires intent, manslaughter doesn't. Manslaughter is also the catch-all for death due to other forms of culpability.

But according to the charges, second degree murders are unintentional. While I agree that the cop was grossly negligent, I am not sure if he has the intent to murder. With the way he disregards George's pleas and being a general dick overall, I agree that he probably has some intent to punish and to hurt, but intent to kill feels like it might be a stretch.

On 6/5/2020 at 9:55 AM, Excellen Browning said:

Prosecuting someone under several statutes for the same crime at the same time is normal. If he gets convicted, he's going to get convicted on one of these charges, not all three. This is done to avoid double jeopardy. Per example, if chauvin was only charged with 2nd degree murder, but the jury finds that it's not 2nd degree murder but a lesser crime, he'd get away scot-free, and would never be able to be prosecuted again for the same thing.

Ah, okay. You can charge them for multiple crimes at once for the same incident, but just not charged over the same incident over and over again over time.

On 6/5/2020 at 9:55 AM, Excellen Browning said:

People don't always get charged with lesser crimes as well, that's up to the prosecutor's discretion. There are cases where the prosecution doesn't want to give the jury the option for convicting on a lesser crime, per example.

Is it possible to stack those charges?

Like, if he gets charged with second-degree murder, does that automatically include third degree murder as well, or are those charges different enough that you need to bring more evidence/arguments? Like if third degree murder is A+B, is second degree murder basically a more beefed up version like A+B+C? Or is second degree murder more like A+Y+Z? And if second degree and third degree are different enough, that should mean it can stack since those are different crimes?

Edited June 6, 2020 by XRay

[eclipse]

40 minutes ago, XRay said:

But according to the charges, second degree murders are unintentional. While I agree that the cop was grossly negligent, I am not sure if he has the intent to murder. With the way he disregards George's pleas and being a general dick overall, I agree that he probably has some intent to punish and to hurt, but intent to kill feels like it might be a stretch.

As far as I know, depriving someone of air for five minutes or so will kill them.  Chauvin's knee was on his neck for nearly nine minutes.

My guess is that MAYBE there's a plea bargain in the works.  Which is going to cause another wave of rioting if it happens.

[Lewyn]

A plea bargain would be really bad.  Bringing multiple charges was really smart and allows greater chance to be found guilty on one of them while also trying to go for the most serious possible charge.  

Anything less than conviction on one of the charges for all the officers as well as extended prison time I think will cause huge riots.  

Drew Brees got slammed super hard, despite being one of the most beloved NFL players, for his statement that he was against kneeling.  Next day he issued an apology.  The NFL commissioner made a statement apologizing how they dealt with the kneeling issue and how it was wrong.

The very private and publicly apolitical Michael Jordan just committed to pledging 100 million dollars over the next 10 years to BLM causes.  

Minneapolis banned chokeholds, multiple cities have cut police funding and many other actions are in the works.  I think most of America has woken up to what these people are protesting for.  Those opposing it, though by no means an insubstantial number,  seem to now be very clearly in the minority.  

I think the more that respected public figures that aren't known as liberals, who are white come out and support the movement it makes the issue much hard to excuse as a black thing, or a crazy Democrat thing.  

[Karimlan]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

As far as I know, depriving someone of air for five minutes or so will kill them.  Chauvin's knee was on his neck for nearly nine minutes.

Anyone who has had experience, or even a passing interest, in the grappling arts will tell you that the first sentence is absolutely correct. The second sentence refers to the amount of time that the victim will succumb after (readily visible or not) signs of struggling, which even a guy of Floyd's size will have difficulty to do so (he was being subdued by three other cops). With those facts, it doesn't matter whether the choke meant to cut off circulation of oxygenated blood to the brain (a blood choke) or compress the trachea (an air choke), the guy would eventually die from asphyxiation (the private autopsy finding commissioned by the family seems to check out).

Edited June 7, 2020 by Karimlan

[XRay]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

As far as I know, depriving someone of air for five minutes or so will kill them.  Chauvin's knee was on his neck for nearly nine minutes.

30 minutes ago, Karimlan said:

Anyone who has had experience, or even a passing interest, in the grappling arts will tell you that the first sentence is absolutely correct. The second sentence refers to the amount of time that the victim will succumb after (readily visible or not) signs of struggling, which even a guy of Floyd's size will have difficulty to do so (he was being subdued by three other cops). With those facts, it doesn't matter whether the choke meant to cut off circulation of oxygenated blood to the brain (a blood choke) or compress the trachea (an air choke), the guy would really die from asphyxiation (the private autopsy finding commissioned by the family seems to check out).

That is true. There is video evidence that there are other officers on George's back too, so putting the knee on his neck was totally unnecessary at that point since he was already immobilized, so the kneeing at least seems to have the intent to hurt and punish.

Since the cop rationalized on footage that George could talk at the time so George was fine, proving intent to kill might be harder in that regard.

However, I am not sure if choke holds are taught during police training, but if they are, then the intent to kill would be easier to prove in that regard, since the cop should then know that restricting the neck would lead to death.

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

My guess is that MAYBE there's a plea bargain in the works.  Which is going to cause another wave of rioting if it happens.

42 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

A plea bargain would be really bad.  Bringing multiple charges was really smart and allows greater chance to be found guilty on one of them while also trying to go for the most serious possible charge.  

I am not sure how exactly plea bargain works. Does the judge or third party offer them, does the prosecution offer them, or both, or something agreed by combination of them? If it is solely at the prosecution's discretion, then I hope they are not offering a plea bargain. It does not seem like they want to offer one anyways since it seems like they want to take the charges to first degree murder and make the cop face as much punishment as the law allows.

But yeah, if there is plea bargain, the optics will look pretty bad.

Edited June 7, 2020 by XRay

[Karimlan]

7 minutes ago, XRay said:

However, I am not sure if choke holds are taught during police training, but if they are, then the intent to kill would be easier to prove in that regard, since the cop should then know that restricting the neck would lead to death.

Training in pain compliance techniques is one thing. Choking someone out is another.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Karimlan

[Lord Raven]

5 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Drew Brees got slammed super hard, despite being one of the most beloved NFL players, for his statement that he was against kneeling.  Next day he issued an apology.  The NFL commissioner made a statement apologizing how they dealt with the kneeling issue and how it was wrong.

This whole thing is wild. For starters: Brees is beloved because he's one of the 10 best quarterbacks in history, he puts up legendary stats every year, and the New Orleans Saints were a joke prior to his arrival in 2006. Now they've won a super bowl and have had potent offenses year in and year out.

Drew Brees said he disagreed with anyone kneeling for the flag. His teammates (stars) called him out, called him dumb, unfollowed on Twitter, etc. So they had a team meeting, he gave a somewhat lukewarm apology.

Then Trump said Brees shouldn't have taken back his apology, to which Brees responded by tagging Trump on Instagram and saying that white people need to stop and take a look at themselves and how they're complicit. His wife said the same thing. It was a wild 3 days.

As for the Goodell video, a rogue employee got a bunch of black NFL superstars to put out a BLM video, one of them was Patrick Mahomes. In doing so, the employee put upwards pressure to Goodell to make a statement. And so he did and it was a good statement AND an apology.

Genuinely impressed by those two.

[Excellen Browning]

8 hours ago, XRay said:

I am not sure how exactly plea bargain works. Does the judge or third party offer them, does the prosecution offer them, or both, or something agreed by combination of them? If it is solely at the prosecution's discretion, then I hope they are not offering a plea bargain. It does not seem like they want to offer one anyways since it seems like they want to take the charges to first degree murder and make the cop face as much punishment as the law allows.

But yeah, if there is plea bargain, the optics will look pretty bad.

A plea bargain is something that's worked out between the prosecution and the defense (and defendant), but the judiciary needs to sign off on it, as well. Most criminal cases never make it to trial and are settled as plea bargains. 

The charging document that I posted doesn't include a due date to appear in court for trial, so I guess a plea bargain is still on the table. 

But I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to chauvin going to prison on the third degree murder charge. Reminder that police normally don't get charged with crimes, and rarely get convicted even if they do. If the prosecution decides to offer him 15-20 years of prison, I'd probably call that justice.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Excellen Browning

[XRay]

Colin Powell backs Joe Biden. Colin Powell is Republican and a retired general. I think that is pretty big news. That is a lot of high ranking military personnel rebuking Trump now. I hope that is a sign that Trump will get kicked out the White House this year. With a poorly handled pandemic, a Great Depression scale of economic damage, and a complete disregard for the Constitution, I think that is enough to stop any other politician from getting re-elected. If that is not enough to kick him out, I am not sure what will.

Edited June 8, 2020 by XRay

[JubileePhoenix]

10 minutes ago, XRay said:

Colin Powell backs Joe Biden. Colin Powell is Republican and a retired general. I think that is pretty big news. That is a lot of high ranking military personnel rebuking Trump now. I hope that is a sign that Trump will get kicked out the White House this year. With a poorly handled pandemic, a Great Depression scale of economic damage, and a complete disregard for the Constitution, I think that is enough to stop any other politician from getting re-elected. If that is not enough to kick him out, I am not sure what will.

Well I would like for a civil war not to happen so i hope trump is gone soon. 

[Deenward]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Colin Powell backs Joe Biden. Colin Powell is Republican and a retired general. I think that is pretty big news. That is a lot of high ranking military personnel rebuking Trump now. I hope that is a sign that Trump will get kicked out the White House this year. With a poorly handled pandemic, a Great Depression scale of economic damage, and a complete disregard for the Constitution, I think that is enough to stop any other politician from getting re-elected. If that is not enough to kick him out, I am not sure what will.

Ngl, I thought the Democratic Party was totally screwed when Biden was chosen to be the nominee. However, polling taken in the aftermath of George Floyd's murder by CNN and the WSJ shows Biden's lead increasing to double digits over Trump. Biden's also  consistently crossing the 50% threshold in head-to-head match-ups, something Clinton was never able to do in the 2016 election. I have a lot of reservations about Biden's character and competency as a leader, but I'll take him over Trump any day, so polling swinging this far in Biden's direction is a promising silver lining rn. 

[Tediz64]

So hypothetically, say the president won reelection. What next or what then? What discussions do we have? And regarding the branch including congress' senate and house.

[XRay]

44 minutes ago, Tediz64 said:

So hypothetically, say the president won reelection. What next or what then? What discussions do we have? And regarding the branch including congress' senate and house.

You mean Republican regain control of all three branches? I am not sure, but that would really suck.

I think Democrats are safe at least in terms of the House though. I am not sure about flipping the Senate, but it could be possible, although it seems kind of slim. We should still try anyways.

The Supreme Court is probably going to be packed with even more conservative judges if the liberal ones cannot hold on anymore due to age. Even if we regain control of the Executive, confirming a new liberal judge to let old liberal judges retire may still be difficult since we also need to win the Senate if we want it to go smoothly.

For the White House, I think we are going to get fucked hard. If Trump cannot handle the first wave of the virus, he cannot handle the second wave. And the economy is probably going to go south if he tries to do anything reckless. You can only deregulate and cut taxes and interest rates up to a point. The protests would probably go on much longer too.

Edited June 9, 2020 by XRay

[Zapp Branniglenn]

President Trump would likely be impeached early into his second term, this time for negligence in his response to the pandemic and withholding/obstructing aid to states that dared to speak against his leadership. The real question mark then is whether the senate would vote to remove him from office. Most of the senate seats up for election this year are Republican, but most of those are pretty secure, so there's not a whole lot of hope outside of a few specific edge cases. The previous impeachment vote fell 48 guilty, 52 not guilty. Assuming the democrats earned three more seats, and Romney votes not guilty again (or if more Republican congressmen have a sudden attack of conscience), the president may be removed from office that way, leading to Pence, which will be a serious boon for GOP unity, and help nobody else.

As for the Supreme Court, well, Ginsburg isn't getting any younger. And republicans have been begging the Supreme Court to re-evaluate Roe v Wade, thinking this is their best, last chance to overturn it. They'll have plenty of time if they earn another Justice, to violate some more human rights.

[Lewyn]

On 6/7/2020 at 12:26 AM, Lord Raven said:

This whole thing is wild. For starters: Brees is beloved because he's one of the 10 best quarterbacks in history, he puts up legendary stats every year, and the New Orleans Saints were a joke prior to his arrival in 2006. Now they've won a super bowl and have had potent offenses year in and year out.

Drew Brees said he disagreed with anyone kneeling for the flag. His teammates (stars) called him out, called him dumb, unfollowed on Twitter, etc. So they had a team meeting, he gave a somewhat lukewarm apology.

Then Trump said Brees shouldn't have taken back his apology, to which Brees responded by tagging Trump on Instagram and saying that white people need to stop and take a look at themselves and how they're complicit. His wife said the same thing. It was a wild 3 days.

As for the Goodell video, a rogue employee got a bunch of black NFL superstars to put out a BLM video, one of them was Patrick Mahomes. In doing so, the employee put upwards pressure to Goodell to make a statement. And so he did and it was a good statement AND an apology.

Genuinely impressed by those two.

Yeah Trump called out Brees, but Brees politely explained why he supported.  It was too intelligent and polite response for a dumb fool like Trump to shoot down without looking really bad, so Trump said nothing.

He called out Goodell, threatening "Are you really thinking of allowing players to kneel during anthem therefore disrespecting the flag and military?" Like why would you care you hypocrite, you step on the flag, wipe your ass with the constitution everyday...and you're a damn draft dodger.  Much more players are going to kneel and with people like Mahomes which is the new darling of the league, Goodell is unlikely to stop them.  Despite what baby Trump says.

1 hour ago, Tediz64 said:

So hypothetically, say the president won reelection. What next or what then? What discussions do we have? And regarding the branch including congress' senate and house.

America is over.  Roe vs Wade will be overturned and conservatives can overturn whatever they want and I'm sure they will.  Pre existing conditions will be allowed again for insurance companies to deny people, leaving many dead and unable to get help...as if it wasn't bad enough having some terrible condition or disease.  ACA will be gone, and so all those artists, independents, other people with multiple part time jobs, or who barely make ends meet and aren't getting it through work will just die or suffer.  Food stamps will obviously gone.  We will fuck up the environment to even greater levels, and more people will be poisoned, more drinking water will be dangerous.  Police and military will grow more and more powerful, more minorities will be brutalized/killed without reform.  Trump will seize more and more power and doesn't have to worry about re election.  If he wants a full blown dictatorship/take over, the damn GOP won't stop him....he'll be too big to stop without career suicide at that point. 

We can discuss things still, if free speech is still allowed.  However we will be stuck with a shitty mad king.  

[Excellen Browning]

I really doubt trump will get impeached a second time if both houses of congress aren't democratically controlled.

[Lewyn]

Well it is likely impossible even then.  I think to actual remove the president you need 2/3 majority, so a lot of Republicans are going to have to agree either way.  If Dems have the majority in both houses though, they could impeach and Senate will get more than half votes allowing calling of witnesses, more subpoenas of documents.  Basically they will likely be able to get a ton more dirt on Trump and make him look really really bad, maybe enough that Republicans are forced to remove him.  

[Lord Raven]

9 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Basically they will likely be able to get a ton more dirt on Trump and make him look really really bad, maybe enough that Republicans are forced to remove him.  

This is...  not a thing, sadly. He just said this.

I doubt he'll lose too many supporters from saying shit like this, which is the crazy part.

13 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

So hypothetically, say the president won reelection. What next or what then? What discussions do we have? And regarding the branch including congress' senate and house.

I'm not even thinking about this. Vote Biden.

[Deenward]

Yeah, Trump's voter base's enthusiasm is hovering around 70 percent. His fans will stick by him through thick and thin. It's scary AF that I actually believe what he said before; even if Trump hit up Times Square and shot people, a significant amount of his base would still bend over backwards to defend him and vote for him in November. If Biden isn't able to rally that kind of fervor around him by November, then we're screwed. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Deenward