General US Politics

[Lord Raven]

12 hours ago, Res said:

This is real?

It's kind of amazing, I thought his presidential run was a joke until he actually won. This would've convinced an alternate universe me living in a world where Hillary Clinton is president.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Lord Raven

[Tryhard]

50 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

EDIT: Actually, wait. Can't tell whether the person is some troll impersonating someone. Eh, I'll go with troll for now.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/503316125405700096

pretty real friend

[Res]

I shouldn't be, but I'm still a little amazed at how little the entire U.S. cares about the latest FBI/Trump/Russia news. 

People to the left are not surprised and expected as much.
People to the right will excuse anything.

The above I can understand. I suppose I expected there to be more people hovering in the center. 

The U.S. managed to get an entire world to be outraged at the possibility of some oral sex and now there's genuine scandal going on and people are just shrugging their shoulders. 

[Time the Crestfallen]

4 hours ago, Res said:

I shouldn't be, but I'm still a little amazed at how little the entire U.S. cares about the latest FBI/Trump/Russia news. 

People to the left are not surprised and expected as much.
People to the right will excuse anything.

The above I can understand. I suppose I expected there to be more people hovering in the center. 

The U.S. managed to get an entire world to be outraged at the possibility of some oral sex and now there's genuine scandal going on and people are just shrugging their shoulders. 

I think people on the left might just be tired. I mean, with a Trump scandal occurring every other day I imagine it's hard to work up the energy to be outraged when you hear about a different fuck-up every time you look at the news.

People on the right probably just don't give a shit. Trump could do the Sieg Heil on international television and they'd find some way to justify it (he's just making fun of the people who call him a fascist! Fake news! Sad!).

Edited March 21, 2017 by The Blind Idiot God

[JJ48]

4 hours ago, Res said:

I shouldn't be, but I'm still a little amazed at how little the entire U.S. cares about the latest FBI/Trump/Russia news. 

People to the left are not surprised and expected as much.
People to the right will excuse anything.

The above I can understand. I suppose I expected there to be more people hovering in the center. 

The U.S. managed to get an entire world to be outraged at the possibility of some oral sex and now there's genuine scandal going on and people are just shrugging their shoulders. 

Hey, now, there are people on the right who are simply jaded, too!  Not all of us are Trump supporters!

 

Call me a pessimist, but when each party finalized their candidates last year, I figured the country was in a no-win situation.

[Radiant head]

5 hours ago, Res said:

The U.S. managed to get an entire world to be outraged at the possibility of some oral sex and now there's genuine scandal going on and people are just shrugging their shoulders. 

hasn't it mostly just been hysteria coming from hacky clintonite liberals.  like from what i've seen, even democrats have started telling people to lower their expectations as to what an investigation will actually uncover.  people like maddow and olberman have basically turned into neo-mccarthyite caricatures.  

Edited March 22, 2017 by Radiant head

[Res]

25 minutes ago, Radiant head said:

hasn't it mostly just been hysteria coming from hacky clintonite liberals.  like from what i've seen, even democrats have started telling people to lower their expectations as to what an investigation will actually uncover.  people like maddow and olberman have basically turned into neo-mccarthyite caricatures.  

Even without the hysteria, there's a lot that Trump's done so far (i.e. to falsely accuse Obama of wiretapping) that would've ruined others' careers a decade ago.

A lot of what's been alleged is no worse or better than Clinton's emails and that was enough for many people.

[Radiant head]

i mean i don't think trump babbling like a baby and shitting in the punch bowl is a genuine scandal

Edited March 22, 2017 by Radiant head

[Res]

Neither do I; just surprised because with anyone else, most people probably would.

 

[Lord Raven]

4 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Hey, now, there are people on the right who are simply jaded, too!  Not all of us are Trump supporters!

I don't think it's the idea of being a Trump supporter. It's more or less how the Republican Party just doesn't care or sweeps it under the rug, or are at best posturing for re-election (ie John McCain).

They pass their poisonous laws, they watch it fail, and they blame Trump in the worst case. Or they have it go into effect pretty much after midterms or during the election cycle.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Lord Raven

[JJ48]

1 minute ago, Lord Raven said:

I don't think it's the idea of being a Trump supporter. It's more or less how the Republican Party just doesn't care or sweeps it under the rug, or are at best posturing for re-election (ie John McCain).

They pass their poisonous laws, they watch it fail, and they blame Trump in the worst case. Or they have it go into effect pretty much after midterms or during the election cycle.

So in other words, Republican politicians act exactly like pretty much all other politicians.  Got it.

[Lord Raven]

Just now, JJ48 said:

So in other words, Republican politicians act exactly like pretty much all other politicians.  Got it.

They're significantly more sinister than the Democrats, which is the only point of reference we can compare them to in the US. Furthermore, they're sweeping things some pretty important things under the rug, like the Russia investigation, admitting to sexual assault, active racism and sexism, and shitting all over the first amendment in many ways. Many railed pretty hard against the cabinet picks and ended up voting along party lines, and those that didn't vote along party lines only did so for posturing because they were most likely given the heads up.

This wouldn't be nearly an issue if we legitimately had more than two parties, and those two parties weren't right-of-center and far-right parties. Nor would it be an issue if one party had complete control over two branches of government.

So yes, they act like "all other politicians," but they're letting some legitimately terrible shit fly just so they can give their donors power and make the rich richer while fucking over the poor. And so they can destroy our environment for an extra dollar. The Democratic party is fairly weak, and there is corruption there, but it's not to nearly the extent of the Republican Party, and this "what about every other politician" is an extremely weak argument to dismiss how fucking shitty the Republican Party is.

[JJ48]

28 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

They're significantly more sinister than the Democrats, which is the only point of reference we can compare them to in the US. Furthermore, they're sweeping things some pretty important things under the rug, like the Russia investigation, admitting to sexual assault, active racism and sexism, and shitting all over the first amendment in many ways. Many railed pretty hard against the cabinet picks and ended up voting along party lines, and those that didn't vote along party lines only did so for posturing because they were most likely given the heads up.

This wouldn't be nearly an issue if we legitimately had more than two parties, and those two parties weren't right-of-center and far-right parties. Nor would it be an issue if one party had complete control over two branches of government.

So yes, they act like "all other politicians," but they're letting some legitimately terrible shit fly just so they can give their donors power and make the rich richer while fucking over the poor. And so they can destroy our environment for an extra dollar. The Democratic party is fairly weak, and there is corruption there, but it's not to nearly the extent of the Republican Party, and this "what about every other politician" is an extremely weak argument to dismiss how fucking shitty the Republican Party is.

It's not so much dismissing their misdeeds as it is recognizing that there are precious few options.  You list perfectly valid complaints against the Republican leadership.  I could list equally valid complaints against Democratic leadership.  In the end, where does that get us?  We'll establish that both sides are terrible options and be no closer to getting a good choice.

 

Sometimes, last year's election seems like, "Well, Republicans claim Obama will go down as the worst president in history, whereas Democrats claim Bush will.  Let's have two candidates such that no matter who wins, both sides will have been wrong!"

[Lord Raven]

7 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

It's not so much dismissing their misdeeds as it is recognizing that there are precious few options.  You list perfectly valid complaints against the Republican leadership.  I could list equally valid complaints against Democratic leadership.  In the end, where does that get us?  We'll establish that both sides are terrible options and be no closer to getting a good choice.

Sometimes, last year's election seems like, "Well, Republicans claim Obama will go down as the worst president in history, whereas Democrats claim Bush will.  Let's have two candidates such that no matter who wins, both sides will have been wrong!"

Except clearly one side is much closer to wrong.

Obama is far from the worst president in US History, and Bush is close to the bottom. So again, this is false equivalence. One side is still significantly less bad. It is dismissing their misdeeds to say that one is equal to the other. The issue with politics in general is that the options will always be compromising at best, and the issue with American politics is the corporate influence in everything leading to poorer education and propaganda with misleading or false statistics - which again has been perpetuated far more by the Republican Party, rooted in things such as the Southern Strategy, Fox News and the melding of the Republican Party with the religious right (convincing people to vote for their religion instead of for their personal needs - when we all know the former isn't even really happening).

Your argument is "where does finger pointing get us?" when it's pretty easy to see that there is a group that we can easily point a finger towards. If the Democrats are in power for the 8 years after Trump and there's still nothing left of them available to vote for then there's a crossroads that must be addressed or fulfilled by our generation. At this point you seem like you're trying not to really talk about things through claiming everything is futile rather than actually bringing up points.

As it stands right now the Republican Party is failing as a party in terms of making the world a better place, and the Democrats are also failing in that regard through inaction and a more fickle voter base (as well as still remaining beholden to corporations, though they don't tend to lean nearly as heavily towards oil companies like the Republican Party does).

[Time the Crestfallen]

7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

It's not so much dismissing their misdeeds as it is recognizing that there are precious few options.  You list perfectly valid complaints against the Republican leadership.  I could list equally valid complaints against Democratic leadership.  In the end, where does that get us?  We'll establish that both sides are terrible options and be no closer to getting a good choice.

I'm getting really tired of people saying that 'both sides are equally terrible' without actually giving examples and comparisons that equate the two, so I'm going to ask you to show me how the Democratic Party is just as bad as the GOP.

[Phoenix Wright]

they're willing to forego democracy in the name of oligarchic power, despite cries from the rust belt, progressive left, and in between. they are weak-willed (obamacare is a nice example). and, worst of all, politically powerful democrats don't think there's anything wrong. the party blames its own followers for not believing in the platform.

now ain't that somethin'?

Edited March 22, 2017 by Phoenix Wright

[Radiant head]

yeah i loathe the democrats, but the republicans are worse in every way. 

dems being so complacent and spineless and constantly trying to compromise is how this more ideologically disciplined republican party keeps getting more extreme

[Time the Crestfallen]

4 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said:

they're willing to forego democracy in the name of oligarchic power, despite cries from the rust belt, progressive left, and in between. they are weak-willed (obamacare is a nice example). and, worst of all, politically powerful democrats don't think there's anything wrong. the party blames its own followers for not believing in the platform.

now ain't that somethin'?

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/27/14078646/north-carolina-political-science-democracy

Out of all the states listed at the bottom, only one (Rhode Island) wasn't a red state this election. 11 (more than a third) of all red states this election can't even be counted as proper democracy's. The study even notes that Democratic states display significantly greater electoral integrity than Republican states up until the official declaration of the results.

The rest reads as just standard politician behaviour. Trust me, everything I read about the US political system makes me despise it and the Democratic party is full of shit, but equating the Democrats to the GOP in a 'both are equally bad' way is a faulty comparison, since the GOP is significantly worse in every way.

Edited March 22, 2017 by The Blind Idiot God

[Lord Raven]

7 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said:

they're willing to forego democracy in the name of oligarchic power, despite cries from the rust belt, progressive left, and in between. they are weak-willed (obamacare is a nice example). and, worst of all, politically powerful democrats don't think there's anything wrong. the party blames its own followers for not believing in the platform.

now ain't that somethin'?

Republicans tried this and failed miserably by the way (this was John Kasich's purpose), and Clinton still won delegates and won the popular vote in the DNC race by a non-insignificant margin. Contrary to popular belief, it was not rigged.

Obamacare was weak-willed but the Democrats are not a leftist party, they're a center to right-of-center party. The ACA appealed to the more conservative parts of the party + it tried to be bipartisan by utilizing a Republican bill that was more left-leaning than the current healthcare system. Furthermore, the followers of the Democratic party have, on the whole, a tendency to be in flux and more fickle with the issues they vote for. This is definitely true, and this is both an issue with the party and an issue with the voters; the adage is that democratic voters fall in love and the republican voters fall in line.

The platform attempted to fix the ACA's shitty parts in the campaign (rather than repeal and replace in the form of a veiled tax cuts to the rich - that's basically the new bill) and advocated for retraining for the rust belt. I firmly believe the only way to really fix the system is to continue to vote Democrat until an actual leftist party comes in, and then we have a mix of left and right economic platforms as opposed to right and far-right. Sadly, incremental progress is a bitch.

Is this still worse than the Republican Party? The ones that gerrymander to fix elections in their favor in both local and federal congress just to impede the power of anyone that comes in that is against them? Because they're actually long-term and short-term destroying the democratic process in favor of an actual oligarchic rule. Is a loose oligarchy (and yes, it is at worst a loose oligarchy, and even then we could've potentially gotten a Clinton v Bush again, so we once again show the Republicans are worse -- we've talked about this) really just as bad as authoritarianism and an attempt at single-party legislature?

[Phoenix Wright]

nah, i definitely think republicans in power are worse. but the spineless nature of democrats allows for that positive feedback loop.

i remember that vox article--very interesting. sad, mostly, however.

i don't think the election was rigged, though, i was talking about the whole sanders-clinton business. 

[Time the Crestfallen]

51 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said:

nah, i definitely think republicans in power are worse. but the spineless nature of democrats allows for that positive feedback loop.

i remember that vox article--very interesting. sad, mostly, however.

i don't think the election was rigged, though, i was talking about the whole sanders-clinton business. 

But my original point was that I'm tired of people making the 'both sides are equally bad' statement without providing examples and in defiance of evidence that one side is far worse. Yes, the democrats are bad, but you agree that the Republicans are worse, so what point are you making?

[Phoenix Wright]

my original comment was made with the intention of sounding more unbiased. at the end of the day, i'm a leftist. of course i feel that republicans are worse--but are they? the examples i gave at least outline that democrats aren't close to perfect.

moreover, what you mean by 'equally bad' was never specified. sure the republican party is aggressive, uncompromising, etc. but democrats seem to behave in any and every way possible to enable those actions. there exists not a balance between the parties, but a clear power gap between them. dems' weak-will, shady dealings, and all its other poor traits make for an equally bad, or rather ineffective, party, but not for the same reasons the republicans are a bad party.

[Time the Crestfallen]

9 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said:

my original comment was made with the intention of sounding more unbiased. at the end of the day, i'm a leftist. of course i feel that republicans are worse--but are they? the examples i gave at least outline that democrats aren't close to perfect.

I don't remember saying that the democrats were perfect.

13 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said:

moreover, what you mean by 'equally bad' was never specified. sure the republican party is aggressive, uncompromising, etc. but democrats seem to behave in any and every way possible to enable those actions. there exists not a balance between the parties, but a clear power gap between them. dems' weak-will, shady dealings, and all its other poor traits make for an equally bad, or rather ineffective, party, but not for the same reasons the republicans are a bad party.

I don't get American news other than the broad-strokes, so you're going to have to explain to me how the democrats are enabling the GOP, especially considering that you're noted the large power gap between the party. 

As for the other half of your statement, that's party of my problem; you're equating ineffectuality with active malice, especially considering that nothing I've seen the Dems do is anything worse than standard political party behaviour. The only thing that comes to mind as especially bad is the mess with Sanders, and even then the GOP is provably worse when it comes to matters of democratic integrity.

[blah the Prussian]

1 hour ago, The Blind Idiot God said:

I don't remember saying that the democrats were perfect.

I don't get American news other than the broad-strokes, so you're going to have to explain to me how the democrats are enabling the GOP, especially considering that you're noted the large power gap between the party. 

As for the other half of your statement, that's party of my problem; you're equating ineffectuality with active malice, especially considering that nothing I've seen the Dems do is anything worse than standard political party behaviour. The only thing that comes to mind as especially bad is the mess with Sanders, and even then the GOP is provably worse when it comes to matters of democratic integrity.

Enabling doesn't have to entail malice. If one party is getting voted in when their leader is Donald Trump the other party screwed up.

[Time the Crestfallen]

20 minutes ago, blah the Prussian said:

Enabling doesn't have to entail malice. If one party is getting voted in when their leader is Donald Trump the other party screwed up.

You have a point, but I can't help but feel like that's a very loose usage of the word 'enabling'. It's not like the Dems just rolled over and told Trump he could just have the Oval Office. The Dems are partially to blame for all the shittery they pulled, but I don't think inadvertent self-sabotage should be counted as 'enabling'.