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269 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you vote a third party?

    • Yes
      88
    • No
      109
    • Maybe
      72
  2. 2. Are you content with the results of the election?

    • Yes
      49
    • No
      108
    • Indifferent
      41


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There's no inherent advantage or disadvantage to having the electoral college over just using the popular vote, and I'm not sure why you'd think along those lines. You can reach the same practical outcome by assigning more weight to votes from the less populous states in a popular vote system just as well.

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DISADVANTAGE:  When you use the electoral college, you sometimes get "elected" leaders that aren't actually representative of who voters elected to lead.

DISADVANTAGE: When you use the electoral college, your vote doesn't matter unless you live in a swing state.

******

ADVANTAGE:  [???]

(None that I'm aware of)

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Supposedly, it's to avoid "Tyranny of the Majority".

On the other hand, "Dominant Minority" is a also a thing that can happen, so...

In my opinion, the moment the voter to vote ratio stops being 1:1, it defats the purpose of being an election. That's just me, though.

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5 hours ago, Azure in a Roundabout said:

Ok... I just want to know the pros and cons  for each of both the electoral college and the popular vote. Just so I can make a decision with the facts given. Or can I just look that up somewhere?

 

4 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

DISADVANTAGE:  When you use the electoral college, you sometimes get "elected" leaders that aren't actually representative of who voters elected to lead.

DISADVANTAGE: When you use the electoral college, your vote doesn't matter unless you live in a swing state.

******

ADVANTAGE:  [???]

(None that I'm aware of)

Check out the discussion starting at 9:45 to get the perspective of a former GOP governor. The advantage people like him desire by having the Electoral College remain is marginalize minorities and whites that don't agree with the racists.

There are white folks in the US that see the thought of people of different color having equal rights and playing field as oppression towards them. Those in power need to acknowledge this and address it.

4 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Supposedly, it's to avoid "Tyranny of the Majority".

On the other hand, "Dominant Minority" is a also a thing that can happen, so...

In my opinion, the moment the voter to vote ratio stops being 1:1, it defats the purpose of being an election. That's just me, though.

Shoblongoo has already talked about why the Electoral College was created but here's another article to supplement it

Quote

The second as part of the structure of the government that gave extra power to the smaller states.

It's ironic that the real tyrants are currently in the minority (Republican) and the Electoral College itself is what has allowed the so-called "tyranny of the majority" to lose twice and have them subjected to enrichment of the elite with a side helping of incompetent governance of the country. 

Removal of the electoral college has been tried several times and apparently, it was almost done during Nixon's era. Nowadays you just have conservatives like Charlie Kirk  defending the Electoral college with bullshit arguments like "we don’t live in a democracy" and it's just not going to happen until you got rid of the corruption in DC.

It is certainly possible to keep the Electoral College but there's problems with it beyond the "Winner Take All" aspect of it. Being mindful of the smaller states is a good thing but as recent times have shown, you even up leaving greater numbers behind if the president lies to the small states and neglects the people in the big states.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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Incidentally, as of like two days ago, New Mexico is the latest state to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, which are state approved agreements to automatically give their EC votes to the popular vote winner, assuming enough states are signed up to reach 270. So far, it's up to 189, though it's not even going to be close to 270 anytime soon since it's more of a blue state thing.

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I want to add something that I came up with after I made my previous post, and which hasn't been addressed by other posters. One disadvantage of the electoral college is that your vote becomes worthless if the majority of your state goes the other way. In a popular vote system your vote gets added to the total and can still contribute to a win.

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That's been addressed, it's literally the biggest problem people outside the swing states have with the system. I do wonder how many people believe that the way we elect our president extends to local, congressional and senate elections because that's where it gets so much worse.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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I've all but given up on Senate and Congressional elections. I'm a liberal in a deep red state, so my vote means absolutely nothing. Only local means anything to me anymore.

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On 3/12/2019 at 2:34 PM, Shoblongoo said:

Oh I've thought about it.

I'd definitely wanna be further along in my career and have a larger reservoir of life experience to tap into before I attempt it.

But like 15-20 years from now? Absolutely. I'd give it a shot. 

________
I'm not a stupid guy. If I today at 29 years old wanted to attempt to unseat my sitting Congressman and launch a bid for office--I couldn't do it. I don't even think I could get my name on the ballot. I don't have the drive, I don't have the networking skills, and I don't have the social platform or the popular support.

She's 29 years old. She did it. 
  
You gotta respect that. 
 

I've been heavily contemplating it since I spoke with you two.  I've clocked more than 3 days accumulatively reading nothing but documents and better understanding what credentials are required and what the title/job looks like. Kind of like how to apply. I've even visited the house/Senate sites to watch live feed to see what is in store for someone interested in joining them. I've been watching the kind of stuff they do and have to admit it looks boring but there are some inspirational and fun things too. Like my Rep for our area brought a college student to Capital Hill to give her a chance to talk with others so they can see a hard working Dreamer who graduated in paralegal. That was moving.

But the job is also intimidating in various ways. Like if you don't get along with others, you'll get shut down and not be able to make any changes or do anything meaningful for the people you want to help. You need support and it's like a team effort to get things done. It isn't a job you can do on your own. Plus you need to help bring awareness and enlighten people but that hinges on if people even want to learn or become proactive in changing the process. They also need to commit by exerting effort and that falls into the lap of the people. Basically it isn't a job you can do using your own two hands. It's all teamwork. I don't know how to inspire people like that. To help them understand and then participate in change all while toppling any obstacles that stand before you. Obstacles which exist just because it appears being happy and sensible isn't allowed or has to be approved by others that aren't even affected. 

I'm only 27 so I don't know if I'd be taken seriously but I'd love to try my hand at this job. I'm pretty sure it's simple enough.

On 3/12/2019 at 8:58 PM, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Me in Congress? I always figured I wouldn't be worthy given how I'd support something as extreme as execution of corrupt politicians.

My residence is currently in Texas and given how I am Hispanic and my district's recent history, it seems like a battle lost before the fight begins. But of course, I haven't done much research when it comes to running for congress so who knows, might be easier than I suspect.

Oh man, you can do it. From what I've researched it isn't that hard to meet the qualifications. The part that might stump you is getting numbers behind you. No joke, you need thousands of people to vote for you. You should look into it. I had fun learning about it. You can win if you are willing to exert a whole bunch of effort. And have some money. Not the kind of money that can you get you a brand new 2018 car but more like what your typical semester at college costs. 

Also I don't think being young or getting fired up over something is a bad thing. You just need people by your side that can help reign you in. Kinda like a safety net. I can't tell you how many times I was ready for it to come down to trading blows and drawing blood but then had someone I respect or care about be near me to remind me there are better ways to solve things. I had this cousin I hadn't seen in like 5 years and he said I mellowed out a whole bunch. That was this February he said that to me. Corruption is a problem and I'd be furious with uncontrollable rage if I knew they turned and looked the other way after getting money while someone suffered. But I've learned and been reminded that they are people too and the more civil and humane thing to do would be to simply strip them of their power and let them live in shame when it becomes public they were crooked. I used to think prison was philosophically implemented to help rehabilitate people but another perspective is to also humiliate them by making it public they were caught and guilty of a crime. Shame and humility make people modest quite effectively. It's almost like neutering them. Maybe while they reflect on their actions they'll decide they want to earn forgiveness and turn a new leaf. Just maybe. I only think that way because someone I respect keeps saying that. I feel like it probably is the right choice. After all, I trust the person saying it and if they think it's a good idea, I have to at least give it a chance. As active as you are here, you should look into it.

 

Also I know I'm quoting like month old posts, but I felt it was still relevant because we keep talking about candidates and qualifications recently.

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10 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

I'm only 27 so I don't know if I'd be taken seriously but I'd love to try my hand at this job. I'm pretty sure it's simple enough.

Part of being a politician is balance.  You're going to have sides that want two different things, and you can't wholly please everyone - how do you do it such that you don't kick anyone in the face?  Is it even possible?

Second, you have to be an effective communicator.  You must be able to express your ideas in such a way that you don't irritate others.  Case in point:

10 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

As active as you are here, you should look into it.

Who are you to tell anyone what to look into?

If being a politician is your dream, go for it.  But you have a lot of work to do.

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8 hours ago, eclipse said:

Part of being a politician is balance.  You're going to have sides that want two different things, and you can't wholly please everyone - how do you do it such that you don't kick anyone in the face?  Is it even possible?

Second, you have to be an effective communicator.  You must be able to express your ideas in such a way that you don't irritate others.  Case in point:

Who are you to tell anyone what to look into?

If being a politician is your dream, go for it.  But you have a lot of work to do.

Not realistically. Furthermore trying to promise something that you can't uphold would be a lie and it isn't ethical to do that or mislead people for whatever reason. The balance will be found in trying to compromise or find ground where everyone can agree to move forward. If that can't be done, then I'll figure out how to cross that bridge when I get to it.

Do you know if my words irritated him? If they did, I'd like him to tell me so I can apologize to him directly so he can hopefully feel my sincerity being conveyed. Otherwise, it was just a suggestion. I'm not quite sure what tone you perceived when reading my post but it wasn't supposed to be felt as if I was issuing a demand or order to him. Just like before in our PMs, I like talking to you. The level of thinking I have to do is a great exercise. Responding to you makes me feel like I'm practicing. 

4 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

So, before anything, which party are you joining?

I actually haven't gotten to the stage where I decided if I want to run. I'm still wondering if I can handle the position with my current level of maturity and my known flaws in character. I need more peace within before I can contemplate jumping in. I need to learn to accept things I can't control. Otherwise I'll make myself lose sleep and suffer not being able to solve problems. There is more I could mention but I think that is sufficient enough for the basis of this post. 

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10 minutes ago, Tediz64 said:

Not realistically. Furthermore trying to promise something that you can't uphold would be a lie and it isn't ethical to do that or mislead people for whatever reason. The balance will be found in trying to compromise or find ground where everyone can agree to move forward. If that can't be done, then I'll figure out how to cross that bridge when I get to it.

Do you know if my words irritated him? If they did, I'd like him to tell me so I can apologize to him directly so he can hopefully feel my sincerity being conveyed. Otherwise, it was just a suggestion. I'm not quite sure what tone you perceived when reading my post but it wasn't supposed to be felt as if I was issuing a demand or order to him. Just like before in our PMs, I like talking to you. The level of thinking I have to do is a great exercise. Responding to you makes me feel like I'm practicing.

Oh man. . .where do I begin.

Rather than attempt to explain the kind of social strain it'll take, I'll direct you to the mafia subforum.  When there's sign-ups, and if you have the time, feel free to jump in!  You'll be yelled at, have to defend yourself against a bunch of people who have no idea who you are, and will probably mess up (don't worry, it's normal).  That's a small taste of what you'll have to deal with in politics, since the stakes in a mafia game are bragging rights and pride.  The mafia players won't try to dig up your past, put every single thing you've done under a microscope, etc.

What I quoted was an example of communication gone badly.  The beauty of a forum is that you can read your words.  Thus, you can take the time to see how you come across.  "You should do this" carries a very different tone than "feel free to jump in".  The former tells someone what to do, while the latter suggests it.  They're subtle differences, but those are the differences that make or break a politician.

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28 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Oh man. . .where do I begin.

Rather than attempt to explain the kind of social strain it'll take, I'll direct you to the mafia subforum.  When there's sign-ups, and if you have the time, feel free to jump in!  You'll be yelled at, have to defend yourself against a bunch of people who have no idea who you are, and will probably mess up (don't worry, it's normal).  That's a small taste of what you'll have to deal with in politics, since the stakes in a mafia game are bragging rights and pride.  The mafia players won't try to dig up your past, put every single thing you've done under a microscope, etc.

What I quoted was an example of communication gone badly.  The beauty of a forum is that you can read your words.  Thus, you can take the time to see how you come across.  "You should do this" carries a very different tone than "feel free to jump in".  The former tells someone what to do, while the latter suggests it.  They're subtle differences, but those are the differences that make or break a politician.

Well thanks for the invite and the constructive feedback I can use. You are a pretty generous person. You're even giving me a resource I can use. I appreciate it.

But I'd like to add this in since I want you to weigh in for me as well. Regarding the good communication skills.

I think it's unfair to hold one to that standard you describe. Ideally yes we'd want someone to be good at it but I don't think demanding or expecting someone to be really proficient is going be achieved any time soon. I saw a live feed of a senator giving a speech that was supposed to be in recognition of someone's service now that thy have passed. But that senator butchered it up nasty. Not only did he stutter a few times but he also pronounced a few words wrong. It was missing so much sincerity it felt degrading almost. Poor deceased guy. Plus I also saw back in 2016 the debates between Beto and Cruz and I saw them slip up numerous times. I honestly felt at that time even I could speak publicly better than them. But then I remembered I get shy and nervous sometimes too which I guess would explain why maybe some people slip up. I'd grow grey hairs just wondering if I sounded stupid or not after any event. This is why I dunno if I'm fit for office.

Also I think it is inevitable someone would not like to hear me talk and will already go into an event to hear me thinking from the onset that I'm whatever name in the book you want to call me. Once my psych teacher challenged us to listen to some speeches and asked us to write our interpretation of what we heard. The class shared papers the following week and quite honestly the results were amusing and interesting. Some of us couldn't even believe we attended the same event and walked away with such different attitudes toward it. The teacher revealed to us that some people come in with a predisposition to certain things like public speeches and it effects how we remember them and feel about them. So case in point, I'm not going to try to be perfect. I just want to help people. I undecided on if politics will be fulfilling in that regard or if it is too much kissing ass and playing with others who are clearly in it for money. If I do run, I'm not accepting a single dollar from a business. It's either my own money or it's money from regular people. I don't want the perception of me being bought out or in the pocket of greedy coporations. My mom would totally disown me and be ashamed of me. That isn't gonna happen :P: if I got elected, I swear secret service couldn't protect me from her even if they are armed. She'd still find me and whup my ass if she knew I took money from bad people.

Edited by Tediz64

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2 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

I think it's unfair to hold one to that standard you describe. Ideally yes we'd want someone to be good at it but I don't think demanding or expecting someone to be really proficient is going be achieved any time soon. I saw a live feed of a senator giving a speech that was supposed to be in recognition of someone's service now that thy have passed. But that senator butchered it up nasty. Not only did he stutter a few times but he also pronounced a few words wrong. It was missing so much sincerity it felt degrading almost. Poor deceased guy. Plus I also saw back in 2016 the debates between Beto and Cruz and I saw them slip up numerous times. I honestly felt at that time even I could speak publicly better than them. But then I remembered I get shy and nervous sometimes too which I guess would explain why maybe some people slip up. I'd grow grey hairs just wondering if I sounded stupid or not after any event. This is why I dunno if I'm fit for office.

Someone who's already elected has the job.  You, as a newcomer, would need to convince people to change from whoever's elected to you.  If you're in a place that embraces change, and the incumbent is a terrible person, then you might have a chance.  In my area, people aren't going to change, short of a disaster, so getting a foot in is a lot harder.

2 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

Also I think it is inevitable someone would not like to hear me talk and will already go into an event to hear me thinking from the onset that I'm whatever name in the book you want to call me. Once my psych teacher challenged us to listen to some speeches and asked us to write our interpretation of what we heard. The class shared papers the following week and quite honestly the results were amusing and interesting. Some of us couldn't even believe we attended the same event and walked away with such different attitudes toward it. The teacher revealed to us that some people come in with a predisposition to certain things like public speeches and it effects how we remember them and feel about them. So case in point, I'm not going to try to be perfect. I just want to help people. I undecided on if politics will be fulfilling in that regard or if it is too much kissing ass and playing with others who are clearly in it for money. If I do run, I'm not accepting a single dollar from a business. It's either my own money or it's money from regular people. I don't want the perception of me being bought out or in the pocket of greedy coporations. My mom would totally disown me and be ashamed of me. That isn't gonna happen :P: if I got elected, I swear secret service couldn't protect me from her even if they are armed. She'd still find me and whup my ass if she knew I took money from bad people.

Good from an idealistic standpoint, really hard from a practical one.  Speaking of practical. . .you can start by attending your local neighborhood board meetings.  Once you get a feel for what's happening in your area, try running there if there's a slot open!

If that's too stressful, then politics is probably not for you.  But that's okay, because the world is full of things to do.  Find something that you're comfortable with, and go~!

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10 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

I actually haven't gotten to the stage where I decided if I want to run. I'm still wondering if I can handle the position with my current level of maturity and my known flaws in character. I need more peace within before I can contemplate jumping in. I need to learn to accept things I can't control. Otherwise I'll make myself lose sleep and suffer not being able to solve problems. There is more I could mention but I think that is sufficient enough for the basis of this post. 

Right, well. Do join a party. That's the only realistic way of ever running for an election.

Getting involved in party politics is also a good place to learn about stuff like compromising, working together with people you completely disagree with, and how you like it.

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Generally I think there's two types of people who run for office:  

People who do it because they're civically-minded and have ideas about what good public policy should be and want to be the changemakers that move the country in the direction they think it should go.

And people who do it because they have an appetite for the lifestyle. They want the public spotlight. Their name in the headlines. Their face on the news. The crowds chanting their names, the influence-peddlers competing for their favor, the "donors" paying for their luxuries... 

Polished public speaking and the ability to perform under stress are all well-and-good; but those are abilities to be cultivated over the course of a lifetime and that come with maturity and experience. 

The threshold place you gotta start is: Why do I want to do this? What when I look out at my country stands out to me as the great unresolved issues in need of redress? What are the worthy causes I want the spotlight to give voice to? What are the wrongs I want the influence to set right?  

Tell me you have spent every waking moment pondering those questions and can answer them anytime, anywhere, straight-from-the-gut.

Then tell me you want the public speaking skills and the ability to perform under stress to run for office. 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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19 hours ago, eclipse said:

If that's too stressful, then politics is probably not for you.  But that's okay, because the world is full of things to do.  Find something that you're comfortable with, and go~!

Yeah, but what keeps bringing me back to this topic is the part of me that is who i am by nature. I've made sacrifices in the past before to accomplish things if i knew it benefited others. I don't want or need a thank you let alone to be acknowledged for it. I simply have peace of mind knowing i did something good, people are happy now, and a problem is fixed. I also think that in order to move forward as a country and go back to things like space exploration, advancements in medicine, and advancements in technology that help daily life become simpler, we need more heavy weights in politics (metaphorically speaking) that can power house and push us forward. I see progressive movements and causes that otherwise help people and not even negatively impact anyone else being pushed aside. As if their voice isn't loud enough. As if they aren't getting across to others. We need someone who can champion the little guy/girl. If changing who i am and doing whatever is necessary to get us going in that direction is what needs to be done, i'm more than happy to lend my entirety over to the cause that needs strength. There are only 3 fields and lines of work that let me become a civil servant to the public and i have the skill sets for to do effectively. I'm already in one but i'm contemplating switching over to politics simply because i can do even more. The deadline to get on the ballet isn't till like early December so i have time to keep thinking about it and the primaries aren't till March. I'll keep learning in the mean time. 

10 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

Getting involved in party politics is also a good place to learn about stuff like compromising, working together with people you completely disagree with, and how you like it.

Yeah. I'm not proficient at playing mind games with others. I really suck at it. Like real bad. It isn't hard to con me. The more i feel i have a connection to someone simply for them liking the same things as me such as games or anime, the easier it is to pull one over me. You could talk about my favorite anime and i'd totally think you're a saint capable of no evil and then an hour later after briefly dropping my guard and leaving my wallet unattended and now i'm missing money, i'd think it was my fault. I'd never suspect the person who just talked about Angel Beats! with me. If someone showed me a photo of them with my wallet in their hand, i'd say it was forged and isn't real. There is no way they'd do that to me. They loved Clannad! How could they steal? Especially if they liked my loli(s) Nowi, Naah, Myrrh, Fa (Fazilla), and Tiki. I'd swear up and down it was a ninja using a disguise trying to frame them. If you are Team Sena from Boku wa Tomodachi, it isn't scientifically, physically, or feasibly possible you'd commit a crime. Absolutely not. I'd reject that logic or whatever proof you have of that person being bad. God forbid you could sing the Pokemon rap with me. You'd be my bff for life. If i found out you are a fan of Yui Horie (the singer and voice actor) i'd totally believe you are my chosen soul mate no matter what.

So in conclusion, i need by my side cynical friends i can trust that will protect me from being played. Since i have no skill in mind games. It is way to easy to manipulate me if you know what i like. So.....yeah.....i'm worried about me going into politics. I lack skills in judging character objectively after i know you like anime/games. 

8 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Generally I think there's two types of people who run for office:  

People who do it because they're civically-minded and have ideas about what good public policy should be and want to be the changemakers that move the country in the direction they think it should go.

The threshold place you gotta start is: Why do I want to do this? What when I look out at my country stands out to me as the great unresolved issues in need of redress? What are the worthy causes I want the spotlight to give voice to? What are the wrongs I want the influence to set right?  

Tell me you have spent every waking moment pondering those questions and can answer them anytime, anywhere, straight-from-the-gut.

Then tell me you want the public speaking skills and the ability to perform under stress to run for office. 

I'm definitely the former. 

Done. The longest i've ever gone without thinking about there is a problem that seriously needs addressing is probably at most 72 hours. My field of work not only reminds me about it, but i grieve and hurt inside for those that suffer and how nothing anytime soon will be done to alleviate the millions that are enduring what is happening. But i learned some years ago, i can't fix it on my own. I need everyone to work together with me to help fix the problem. So until everyone  can say enough is enough, i'm waiting eagerly, patiently, and excitedly to take us in the direction that many i feel believe doesn't exist or isn't feasible. I know we can make it a reality. 

I'm watching too much anime. Can you believe that words coming out of my mouth. Holy crap i sound cringe inducing :>_<: Time to go look at the local news and come back down to reality. Where people get shot at during baby showers. 40+ year old men are taking trips with 15 year old girls. Did i forget a father beating his child to do death for not doing homework? Yeah....change isn't coming any time soon but i can dream right?

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5 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

Yeah, but what keeps bringing me back to this topic is the part of me that is who i am by nature. I've made sacrifices in the past before to accomplish things if i knew it benefited others. I don't want or need a thank you let alone to be acknowledged for it. I simply have peace of mind knowing i did something good, people are happy now, and a problem is fixed. I also think that in order to move forward as a country and go back to things like space exploration, advancements in medicine, and advancements in technology that help daily life become simpler, we need more heavy weights in politics (metaphorically speaking) that can power house and push us forward. I see progressive movements and causes that otherwise help people and not even negatively impact anyone else being pushed aside. As if their voice isn't loud enough. As if they aren't getting across to others. We need someone who can champion the little guy/girl. If changing who i am and doing whatever is necessary to get us going in that direction is what needs to be done, i'm more than happy to lend my entirety over to the cause that needs strength. There are only 3 fields and lines of work that let me become a civil servant to the public and i have the skill sets for to do effectively. I'm already in one but i'm contemplating switching over to politics simply because i can do even more. The deadline to get on the ballet isn't till like early December so i have time to keep thinking about it and the primaries aren't till March. I'll keep learning in the mean time.

I'll warn you again, it's not going to be easy.  But if that's how you truly feel, start with your neighborhood.

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On 3/24/2019 at 9:29 PM, Time the Crestfallen said:

the Dems are in an awful spot right now. Not only does this validate the Fake News rhetoric for Trump and his supporters, but now Dems and especially the Centrist/Liberal media have a lot of egg on their faces

22 Days Later

[Trump]: "Great report. Completely exonerated. No collusion!"

[Everyone]: "Show us. Show us the report."

[Trump]: *Autistic Screeching*
_____________

They're validating that Trump is still acting like a man who's guilty as sin. 

Whole thing is supposedly going to drop tomorrow. Minus whatever 'redactions' Barr needed to spend three (3) weeks reviewing and preparing. (PRO TIP: It doesn't take an attorney 3 weeks to review a report)

I'm only half-joking when i say I expect we're going to get something along the lines of: 

Image result for barr redactions



If this winds up looking terrible for the Democrats, it will be because it turns into yet another instance of them being feckless and impotent as an opposition party.

What needs to happen next if they get handed a document with pages and pages of full  redactions and Barr refuses to produce an unredacted copy is that The House Oversight Committee needs to subpoena a full-and-complete copy of the original document. 

Take the fight to the Supreme Court if the White House tries to fight the subpoena.

Seek a declaratory judgment for injunctive relief.

Cite United States v. Richard Nixon as binding precedent for why injuncitve relief must be granted. 

And put the president in a position where he either must comply with the subpoena, or engage in such blatantly impeachable defiance of law that not even the staunchest Senate bootlicker can ignore it.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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3 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:


Whole thing is supposedly going to drop tomorrow. Minus whatever 'redactions' Barr needed to spend three (3) weeks reviewing and preparing. (PRO TIP: It doesn't take an attorney 3 weeks to review a report)

 

Well. . .not for a normal case.

But this IS a sitting president of the USA, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were some things that needed to be checked against national security.  Wouldn't do to accidentally leak top secret info~!

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20 hours ago, eclipse said:

Well. . .not for a normal case.

But this IS a sitting president of the USA, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were some things that needed to be checked against national security.  Wouldn't do to accidentally leak top secret info~!

We can stop speculating now. Here it is:

https://www.scribd.com/document/406725640/Mueller-Report#fullscreen&from_embed

The (Redacted) Mueller Report. 448 Pages.

Read it while its hot 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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Alright so this is whats jumping out at me on first-impression (reading through it so I can give my own analysis instead of having to rely on TV pundits and commentators)

"A possible remedy of impeachment for abuses of power would not substitute for potential criminal liability after a president leaves office. Impeachment would remove a president from office, but would not address the underlying culpability of the conduct or serve the usual purposes of the criminal law...Recognizing  an immunity from prosecution for a sitting president would not preclude such prosecution once the president's term is over or he is otherwise removed from office by resignation or impeachment." (Mueller; Page 390)

"Because we determined not to make traditional prosecutorial judgments, we did not draw ultimate conclusions about the Presidents conduct...if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice we would so state. Based on the facts and applicable legal standard, we are unable to reach that judgment. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him." (Mueller; Page 394)

(the preceding ~200 pages lay out acts by Donald Trump and legal theories that Mueller believes could form the basis of an obstruction-of-justice prosecution)
___________________

A few very important things here:

(1) Mueller is saying the reason Trump was not charged with a crime is because he decided to recognize an immunity from prosecution for sitting presidents and not make any "prosecutorial judgments" as to the criminality of Trump's conduct; not because he lacks evidence that Trump committed crimes.

(2) He just laid out the case for impeachment.

(3) He made the case for (and left the door open to) criminally prosecuting Trump on obstruction-of-justice charges after his term in office ends, and he becomes a private citizen again + loses presidential immunity. 


...there's ALOT to work with here...

Balls in Congress's Court now to decide what they want to do with impeachment proceedings.

Call your Congressmen. Call your Senators. Give them an earful. It sounds tripe and jaded--but they DO take notice if enough angry constituents flood their phone lines.

They're partisan hacks, but they're also cowards. They'll act when they fell pressured to act. Spread the word to everyone you know: bring the pressure.  





 

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