A Sardonic Look at Fire Emblem Fates

[nordopolica]

The fact that there are worse games out there doesn't make Fates better; I know that wasn't the point you were trying to make, but there are some people who shrug off any criticism with that mindset.

The thing about the finale with slime daddy is that it has no real buildup for any of the siblings. They hear about this the chapter before and have no real time to react, thus robbing them of what could've been damn good characterization, something Camilla and Elise were in desperate need of. Not only that, but from what the player has seen in the main story, the siblings are just treated like trash by Garon and they're against everything he represents, even going so far as to undermine his authority whenever possible - and yet when they get an axe to the face, they react by saying that they can't kill their own father - not because of some kind of fear, mind you, since that would've made a certain degree of sense (but wouldn't have removed the aforementioned issues), but because some goo pretended to be their father. If there's one thing I didn't expect of Leo, arguably the most consistent and well-developed character in the main story, was to lose his cool, pragmatic outlook when it mattered the most.

To me, Conquest's finale will never represent victory. Not only because of the multitude of missed opportunities, but because you steamrolled a peaceful nation because the main character was too gutless and stupid to find another solution, and the deuteragonist was mildly held back by a plot device so bad it makes the Blood Pact look like Shakespeare, and now you're celebrating the fact that the nation filled with puppy kickers has a new king who willingly took part in the massacre. The ending made me feel disgusted for all the wrong reasons.

Yes, the point I was trying to make was that I'm sure and I and a lot of others are probably a little jaded when it comes to stories. I adored Awakening when it came out and even after years had no qualms with it whatsoever.

It's probably hard for you to empathise with since to you the problems Conquest represents are so glaringly obvious that only an idiot would miss them. (I'd also like to clarify that I have no played the English version, only a watered-down JP version dictated to me by a translator who would make things more fun like calling Anankos' puppets "meat puppets" and making my avatar's only discernible character trait the fact that she whined and called things "spicy" (辛い)) I never felt disgusted, I suppose because I never thought of it that way, and maybe my Nohr bias got the best of me.

I'm sure when I play the English version, I will be able to point out these things as well, because now I know of their existence and they'll be clearer than ever, but can you at least see why someone playing the game for the first time, all wide-eyed and innocent, wouldn't have so much of a problem with these things?

Like I said, nowadays I'm more interested in conversing about all three routes' obvious flaws, but honestly I have more of a problem with some of the support choices, children, and the fact that these almost completely contradict the main theme of the game, sacrificing its integrity for a player avatar's waifu freedom.

[Nintales]

The fact that there are worse games out there doesn't make Fates better; I know that wasn't the point you were trying to make, but there are some people who shrug off any criticism with that mindset.

The thing about the finale with slime daddy is that it has no real buildup for any of the siblings. They hear about this the chapter before and have no real time to react, thus robbing them of what could've been damn good characterization, something Camilla and Elise were in desperate need of. Not only that, but from what the player has seen in the main story, the siblings are just treated like trash by Garon and they're against everything he represents, even going so far as to undermine his authority whenever possible - and yet when they get an axe to the face, they react by saying that they can't kill their own father - not because of some kind of fear, mind you, since that would've made a certain degree of sense (but wouldn't have removed the aforementioned issues), but because some goo pretended to be their father. If there's one thing I didn't expect of Leo, arguably the most consistent and well-developed character in the main story, was to lose his cool, pragmatic outlook when it mattered the most.

To me, Conquest's finale will never represent victory. Not only because of the multitude of missed opportunities, but because you steamrolled a peaceful nation because the main character was too gutless and stupid to find another solution, and the deuteragonist was mildly held back by a plot device so bad it makes the Blood Pact look like Shakespeare, and now you're celebrating the fact that the nation filled with puppy kickers has a new king who willingly took part in the massacre. The ending made me feel disgusted for all the wrong reasons.

Don't forget about Hinoka hilariously seeming totally okay about everything minus being the new queen of hoshido being a little bit hard.

She's super alright along Sakura to come seeing the murderers of her people, her mother -I don't think they actually know the Vallites are to blame for that, right?- and her brothers- and talking happily with them like nothing really happened.

Thanks Corrin!

To get into the subject of how gay marriage was handled in fates... As I'm not a gaymer myself, it might be hard for me to judge it perfectly. But let's give my two cents :

- That was first of all a tough choice for IS, especially since... What's currently happening in EU. I just hope this won't prevent the game to sell (seems pretty good right now if you look at the speed for collector editions), since in some countries I have to remind Gay marriage isn't legal (Italy is currently voting for it). I totally respect their decision and think that's the right choice too.

- Though the way it was handled is... Quite disturbing, but I guess it's okay since it's one of the first times that in a video game, a man/girl can marry someone of the same sex. I really think it could have been better, but it's okay. For example, you could also have had Soleil to be a pure Lesbian (would have been really fun instead of someone who simply likes women, but maybe that would have been waaaay too far), or I don't know, having instead of a buddy option for some characters some gaymance options. (like the famous SilasxKaze)

- And yeah, Silas as the gay option could have sounded better (and Soleil as the lesbian one), but I guess that Niles was more popular or something like that.

- I'm also quite sad that gay options mean no children. They could have made them to be adopted or something like that, since they got the BabyRealms on. Nina and Kanna would have been found victims of war or something like that that they raised as their children and put to safety into the babyrealm. I think that even for a MUxRhajat, not getting Kanna is pretty annoying since... well, you can't be homo and go for optimization. This is quite sad.

- I'm not sure for Shiro... Anyone can be gay for sure, but they probably wanted the gay option to be evident as well. Niles and Rhajat sound pretty obvious regarding Corrin this way. At least that's what I think.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Nintales

[Thane]

Yes, the point I was trying to make was that I'm sure and I and a lot of others are probably a little jaded when it comes to stories. I adored Awakening when it came out and even after years had no qualms with it whatsoever.

It's probably hard for you to empathise with since to you the problems Conquest represents are so glaringly obvious that only an idiot would miss them. (I'd also like to clarify that I have no played the English version, only a watered-down JP version dictated to me by a translator who would make things more fun like calling Anankos' puppets "meat puppets" and making my avatar's only discernible character trait the fact that she whined and called things "spicy" (辛い)) I never felt disgusted, I suppose because I never thought of it that way, and maybe my Nohr bias got the best of me.

I'm sure when I play the English version, I will be able to point out these things as well, because now I know of their existence and they'll be clearer than ever, but can you at least see why someone playing the game for the first time, all wide-eyed and innocent, wouldn't have so much of a problem with these things?

Like I said, nowadays I'm more interested in conversing about all three routes' obvious flaws, but honestly I have more of a problem with some of the support choices, children, and the fact that these almost completely contradict the main theme of the game, sacrificing its integrity for a player avatar's waifu freedom.

Oh I've got plenty of complaints about the game's writing that isn't related to Conquest, don't you worry about that.

...That's for another time though, since I've got to get up at an ungodly hour tomorrow though.

However, you wondered if I can see someone liking Conquest for the first time, wide-eyed innocence and all, and I'd say it depends on the person. To me, however, there were so many flaws that I couldn't help but to start assuming that large chunks of the plot had been removed late into development. I found very, very little enjoyment with Conquest story-wise (yes yes, the gameplay is amazing), and the sheer amount of things that pissed me off is unprecedented. I suppose I could say the same thing for Revelation as well.

As for Awakening, it's still my favorite Fire Emblem title, and while I won't deny its many flaws, I still think the story is easier to swallow than both Blazing Sword and Fates, but by saying this I've probably doomed the thread to go off-topic.

[saisymbolic]

As for the gay marriage, I feel Silas or Jakob (possibly Kaze) should have been the male choices and Felicia or Flora should have been the female choices.

Considering that these characters are ones encountered throughout all the routes and given their blind loyalty to Corrinmui, regardless of gender, I feel they may have been slightly better. That isn't to say that Niles was a bad choice--I quite like his character--and Rhajat... I'll be honest, I really have no love or interest in her. My dislike for her mainly stems from my feelings of Tharja--Tharja was tolerable in Awakening; I did not want her again in Fates. Losing out on a child could have been rectified if the Bond Unit mechanic or even an apprentice mechanic was used instead of the Deep-bolic Chamber--passing down skills and stat modifications could have been explained as passing down a craft.

I'm not overall disappointed in it. Rather neutral about it, honestly. I look at, blink and sigh because it is another support I have to fill in in the Support Log.

Edited March 29, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Avalanche]

I'm not trying to make you change your opinion, but may I ask what you liked about the ending? Personally I found it horribly executed since the siblings had all but been left out of the main plot and missed out on any real buildup, not to mention any possble dilemma that could arise from killing your father is excused because "lol slime monster".

That, and I can't stand how the siblings take an axe to the face and go "gee, dad sure is in a bad mood today! We'd better let him kill us, that'll cheer him up!".

Most of it is from my perspective as a player. Garon, Iago and Han's we're so one dimensionally evil, I was kind shrugging every time they gave the siblings new orders. I think it was the sheer fact that we actually got to take them out that made me enjoy the last few Chapters, not the writing itself. I also went into Conquest knowing the plot was kinda terrible, so my expectations were really low. Is that the proper mindset to enter a story with? No it's not, but it's the reason I'm not overly salty about Conquest's poor writing.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Avalanche

[nyainou]

Regarding your misc. section and the rant on gay marriages.. I feel you. I've always really loved Niles from the day his appearance was first leaked, but I want other options. I strongly stand by the notion that Corrinsexuals and all units you get in both campaigns should be gay marriage candidates. The Corrinsexuals because, well, they're really only recruitable in the players interest. As in, they don't need to be, with say, the exception of Gunter. If the Corrinsexuals are only an option to please the player, than why not take it a step further? I'd love to gay marry Shura. he's a sweetie pie. As for the units you get in both campaigns, they're all pretty much obsessed with Corrin. With the exception of Mozu and Shura, everyone's personalities and actions revolve around Corrin, though some more than others. And yeah, I'm being pretty biased here. But let's be honest, f!Corrin/Azura is the cutest, sweetest thing.. and Silas and M!Corrin finally reuniting and forgetting all the "haha but like no homo!!" BS the game shoved on them. pls.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Catching up with this, I just wanted to say I greatly enjoyed your Conquest writeup too. I generally agree with most of your points, once again, and I think you capture well the flaws it has and also the places where it flirts with being the best plot in the series. It's a bit frustrating and all over the place and it's nice to see someone break it down nicely.

I liked your comparisons with Tactics Ogre Law route. I did notice some of the parallels myself, actually. Both plots are things I really want to like a lot more than I ended up liking them, for all that I think the flaws of Tactics Ogre and Conquest are rather different (beyond both having some terrible villains). But both represent the types of plots I'd like to see game writers run with and actually do well (rather than pushing out something like Blazing Sword or Awakening or god forbid, Shadow Dragon).

[Leif]

The fact that there are worse games out there doesn't make Fates better; I know that wasn't the point you were trying to make, but there are some people who shrug off any criticism with that mindset.

The thing about the finale with slime daddy is that it has no real buildup for any of the siblings. They hear about this the chapter before and have no real time to react, thus robbing them of what could've been damn good characterization, something Camilla and Elise were in desperate need of. Not only that, but from what the player has seen in the main story, the siblings are just treated like trash by Garon and they're against everything he represents, even going so far as to undermine his authority whenever possible - and yet when they get an axe to the face, they react by saying that they can't kill their own father - not because of some kind of fear, mind you, since that would've made a certain degree of sense (but wouldn't have removed the aforementioned issues), but because some goo pretended to be their father. If there's one thing I didn't expect of Leo, arguably the most consistent and well-developed character in the main story, was to lose his cool, pragmatic outlook when it mattered the most.

To me, Conquest's finale will never represent victory. Not only because of the multitude of missed opportunities, but because you steamrolled a peaceful nation because the main character was too gutless and stupid to find another solution, and the deuteragonist was mildly held back by a plot device so bad it makes the Blood Pact look like Shakespeare, and now you're celebrating the fact that the nation filled with puppy kickers has a new king who willingly took part in the massacre. The ending made me feel disgusted for all the wrong reasons.

These are amazing points, Thane. I was too wrapped up in the potential that this story had and my utter hatred for Garon in my analysis. THIS PLOT COULD HAVE BEEN SO GREAT. UGH.

I did roll my eyes with Azura's plot devise, but when taking the three campaigns as a whole, it is needed.

Had Revelation not existed, we could have had Azura not be as handicapped as a character, in terms of her development. She was simply passive and just let Corrin do most the work because she couldn't say a damn thing about Valla.

I think that we could have had a neutral route that could have been handled something along the lines of, "Corrin joins Hoshido, leaves and then settles in Nohr".

I think THAT would be more cool than some weird, invisible cursed kingdom. I'm starting Chapter 23 in Revelation, and I will say that the story, so far, hasn't impressed me one bit.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Leif

[eclipse]

Re: rant

[spoiler=Just in case]Kinda disagree about Niles - the fact that he doesn't really change the convo from male to female is good in my eyes. It means that he's not acting super-special just because he's about to marry the man of his dreams. IMO this is good, because it helps to normalize it (as opposed to making it exotic and condemning it, source: church). I didn't like Rhajat's one, because it felt like it was only there for player worship - had she tried to say the same thing to, say, Sophie, it wouldn't have worked, because Sophie wasn't the one that saved her.

The gay option, IMO, should've been Jakob/Felicia. You'll have both in your party short of killing them, and the servant/master thing is something that IS has done before (sorry Azel).

I thought that Japanese Soliel's treatment was depressingly realistic, given what I've heard about the treatment of the B part of LGBT. Not sure how much of that carried over to America, as her lone support in my library is with Laslow.

However, you probably have more insight than I do regarding this subject, so I'm gonna shut up now.

[Thane]

These are amazing points, Thane. I was too wrapped up in the potential that this story had and my utter hatred for Garon in my analysis. THIS PLOT COULD HAVE BEEN SO GREAT. UGH.

I did roll my eyes with Azura's plot devise, but when taking the three campaigns as a whole, it is needed.

Had Revelation not existed, we could have had Azura not be as handicapped as a character, in terms of her development. She was simply passive and just let Corrin do most the work because she couldn't say a damn thing about Valla.

I think that we could have had a neutral route that could have been handled something along the lines of, "Corrin joins Hoshido, leaves and then settles in Nohr".

I think THAT would be more cool than some weird, invisible cursed kingdom. I'm starting Chapter 23 in Revelation, and I will say that the story, so far, hasn't impressed me one bit.

The thing is that she wasn't particularly handicapped. They were IN Valla, and as demonstrated by the seventh chapter in Revelation, she knows essentially everything there is to know about the current conflict. Even if that weren't the case, we still don't see her even trying to reveal what she knows; she invades Hoshido without any remorse.

I also think the game would've been better without Revelation provided that led them to actually plug those plot holes and severe cases of awful writing, but that's simply not the game we were given; I have no doubt Revelation exist simply because they were afraid some people wouldn't want to play a game in which choosing a side had any consequences. Well, that and extra moolah.

Oh, and it gets worse with the DLC.

[Time the Crestfallen]

The thing is that she wasn't particularly handicapped. They were IN Valla, and as demonstrated by the seventh chapter in Revelation, she knows essentially everything there is to know about the current conflict. Even if that weren't the case, we still don't see her even trying to reveal what she knows; she invades Hoshido without any remorse.

I also think the game would've been better without Revelation provided that led them to actually plug those plot holes and severe cases of awful writing, but that's simply not the game we were given; I have no doubt Revelation exist simply because they were afraid some people wouldn't want to play a game in which choosing a side had any consequences. Well, that and extra moolah.

Oh, and it gets worse with the DLC.

I'm not entirely opposed to Revelation; the mysterious third faction manipulating things from the shadows had potential, but the biggest problem is that a) they defaulted to evil dragon who wants to kill humanity because he's crazy and b) they foreshadowed it in a horrible way throughout the main game as well as turning Azura into a walking spoiler index in order to prevent you from getting all the answers.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I just finished Conquest and man, i love it when a character in the game manage to perfectly break down what is wrong with the game

"Why didn't you tell us earlier? Why keep it a secret?

And why are you two the only ones who knows about this alleged truth?""

[TanatatKnight]

I don't mind having the whole happy "join hands and be friends" thing or having your dad as an evil dragon, but I wished there were more legitimate reasons or at least the campaign being an epic conquest of both countries. Hell, the rumors about the characterization before the real news were much more interesting. I would love to see Revelations/Conquest!Ryoma go extremely mad from losing his allies and being distrustful of Corrin, only until you beat him upside the head.

[spoiler=Spoilers, just in case]

In fact, it would be interesting IF Anankos was an immediate threat that was invading Hoshido and Nohr secretly because of invisible soldiers except he does nothing but let Silme Garon screw things out for no reason because he is mad and hates humans. He had legitimate backstory reasons to hate them, but he doesn't display the right intelligence to make it interesting. He is better than Grima in that regards, but just as stupid as he is with the plot. He barely does anything in Birthright, confuses and sold out Silme Garon in Conquest for wut, and sends dead family members against you in revelations, because now you have to kill your own mother and father. Ugh....so many potentials are lost with the game, that if in the future where technology is more vast, if anyone wanted to remake this game, I will wholly fund my lifesavings on it.

[Thane]

I'm not entirely opposed to Revelation; the mysterious third faction manipulating things from the shadows had potential, but the biggest problem is that a) they defaulted to evil dragon who wants to kill humanity because he's crazy and b) they foreshadowed it in a horrible way throughout the main game as well as turning Azura into a walking spoiler index in order to prevent you from getting all the answers.

Did it really though? One of the main problems with Revelation is that, as soon as Xander gets his head out of his ass thanks to Garon's self-defeating tendencies, there is no more conflict in the entire game. At all. The entire premise is nothing but smoke and mirrors; there's no tension between the two groups, they don't talk about what had happened up until they point - hell, they don't TALK at all! They follow Corrin and occasionally spout some exposition and then proclaim peace.

Where are the cultural differences? Where's the lingering animosity? Where's the entire human element to the conflict? By placing 100% of the blame on someone else, you cheapen the entire story and all of the characters therein since you essentially remove emotions that make people who they are.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Did it really though? One of the main problems with Revelation is that, as soon as Xander gets his head out of his ass thanks to Garon's self-defeating tendencies, there is no more conflict in the entire game. At all. The entire premise is nothing but smoke and mirrors; there's no tension between the two groups, they don't talk about what had happened up until they point - hell, they don't TALK at all! They follow Corrin and occasionally spout some exposition and then proclaim peace.

Where are the cultural differences? Where's the lingering animosity? Where's the entire human element to the conflict? By placing 100% of the blame on someone else, you cheapen the entire story and all of the characters therein since you essentially remove emotions that make people who they are.

That's more of a problem with the overall writing rather than the plot device itself however. As an example, let me tell you about the War of the Beard (from Warhammer Fantasy).

[spoiler=Sorry about the weird formatting.]

During the reign of Caledor II of the High Elves, trade routes between Elves and Dwarfs that had been closed during theElven Civil War were reopened, and the Elven colonies in the Old World flourished while humanity were little more than savages. Malekith, the Witch King, ordered Dark Elves dressed as High Elves to attack Dwarf traders and seize their wares. King Gotrek, failing to see through the deception, demanded recompense from Ulthuan, which Caledor II - lacking the good sense and wisdom of his father, Caledor I - refused, and insulted the Dwarfs by implying that they beg. After demanding twice the original reparations for this new slight, Caledor II sent the Dwarf ambassador back with his head and chin shaved. Dark Elves stirred up trouble among the Old Word Elven colonies, and soon war began.

So while the Dark Elves were responsible for creating the initial distrust. It was the arrogance of the Elven King (by acting like a jackass instead of a reasonable person, refusing to tell the Dwarves about the Civil War that had recently occurred or the existence of the Dark Elves presumably out of shame, not launching an investigation into the matter, as well as shaving the Dwarves beards when they asked again for fear of his reputation being damaged, which is the ultimate insult for a Dward) as well as Dwarvish stubbornness (demanding twice the original recompense and refusing to accept surrender, it being canon that Dwarves won't let go of a grudge until they obtain what they consider a proportionate revenge) that led to the incident spiraling out of control and starting the War that ruined both Kingdoms and left them shadows of their former selves.

This isn't a perfect example, but it's an example of how a third faction manipulating things doesn't make the other two entirely blameless.

[TanatatKnight]

Did it really though? One of the main problems with Revelation is that, as soon as Xander gets his head out of his ass thanks to Garon's self-defeating tendencies, there is no more conflict in the entire game. At all. The entire premise is nothing but smoke and mirrors; there's no tension between the two groups, they don't talk about what had happened up until they point - hell, they don't TALK at all! They follow Corrin and occasionally spout some exposition and then proclaim peace.

Where are the cultural differences? Where's the lingering animosity? Where's the entire human element to the conflict? By placing 100% of the blame on someone else, you cheapen the entire story and all of the characters therein since you essentially remove emotions that make people who they are.

I'm part of some people that believed it did. However they undermined the whole third faction a little too much. They made the third faction looked so weak and non-threatening that it felt like a stupid reason to bring the countries together. It also doesn't help that fact that both the Hoshido and Nohr characters decided to work together by choice and not by force. Xander and Ryoma didn't join Corrin because both Hoshido and Nohr are devastated by the result of their war and Anankos interfering, they joined because we "trust" Corrin. They also don't act like they hate each other enough. Everyone is so understanding and willing to work together that it's feels really static. I would love to see Ryoma and Xander just argue during the first time they join up about battlefield formations, units or just how the way of how Hoshidians' swing their swords when compared to Nohrians. I also wouldn't mind having Corrin being the sane man between them, even if it means giving in to the character avatar as god, although that could be fine to have them mess up every now and then.

There was so much potential, but the reason it doesn't work is because so many other reasons that follow it.

[Thane]

That's more of a problem with the overall writing rather than the plot device itself however. As an example, let me tell you about the War of the Beard (from Warhammer Fantasy).

[spoiler=Sorry about the weird formatting.]

During the reign of Caledor II of the High Elves, trade routes between Elves and Dwarfs that had been closed during theElven Civil War were reopened, and the Elven colonies in the Old World flourished while humanity were little more than savages. Malekith, the Witch King, ordered Dark Elves dressed as High Elves to attack Dwarf traders and seize their wares. King Gotrek, failing to see through the deception, demanded recompense from Ulthuan, which Caledor II - lacking the good sense and wisdom of his father, Caledor I - refused, and insulted the Dwarfs by implying that they beg. After demanding twice the original reparations for this new slight, Caledor II sent the Dwarf ambassador back with his head and chin shaved. Dark Elves stirred up trouble among the Old Word Elven colonies, and soon war began.

So while the Dark Elves were responsible for creating the initial distrust. It was the arrogance of the Elven King (by acting like a jackass instead of a reasonable person, refusing to tell the Dwarves about the Civil War that had recently occurred or the existence of the Dark Elves presumably out of shame, not launching an investigation into the matter, as well as shaving the Dwarves beards when they asked again for fear of his reputation being damaged, which is the ultimate insult for a Dward) as well as Dwarvish stubbornness (demanding twice the original recompense and refusing to accept surrender, it being canon that Dwarves won't let go of a grudge until they obtain what they consider a proportionate revenge) that led to the incident spiraling out of control and starting the War that ruined both Kingdoms and left them shadows of their former selves.

This isn't a perfect example, but it's an example of how a third faction manipulating things doesn't make the other two entirely blameless.

And that's all well and good, but of course everything can be reduced to "it's because of bad writing"; that's the entire point I was making. The quickest way to fix the story, as it stands, would be to completely exclude Valla.

My problem with a third faction has nothing to do with there being another player on the field and everything to do with how it's portrayed in the game. In Revelation we kill random redshirts until we defeat the bad guy whose "manipulations" was through a puppet of a ruler which was written so poorly that it managed to negatively affect the characterization of half of the main characters. Not to mention that this has already been done in Sacred Stones and was handled with far more grace that I can't help but wonder why the writing is getting worse - if anything they should've figured out how to write that kind of story better by now.

Your example includes, you know, human emotions and motivations, something Anankos completely lacks, and that's why he falls flat. Anankos IS the entire third faction, and I'd even argue that he's worse than Grima due to being a little crybaby on top of being the generic evil dragon. Speaking of which, wasn't that one of the things Kibayashi wanted to fix? I mean, it's hardly improving a story if you just go "I'm going to take that boring villain and make him even more powerful!". Oh well, I digress.

[Time the Crestfallen]

And that's all well and good, but of course everything can be reduced to "it's because of bad writing"; that's the entire point I was making. The quickest way to fix the story, as it stands, would be to completely exclude Valla.

My problem with a third faction has nothing to do with there being another player on the field and everything to do with how it's portrayed in the game. In Revelation we kill random redshirts until we defeat the bad guy whose "manipulations" was through a puppet of a ruler which was written so poorly that it managed to negatively affect the characterization of half of the main characters. Not to mention that this has already been done in Sacred Stones and was handled with far more grace that I can't help but wonder why the writing is getting worse - if anything they should've figured out how to write that kind of story better by now.

Your example includes, you know, human emotions and motivations, something Anankos completely lacks, and that's why he falls flat. Anankos IS the entire third faction, and I'd even argue that he's worse than Grima due to being a little crybaby on top of being the generic evil dragon. Speaking of which, wasn't that one of the things Kibayashi wanted to fix? I mean, it's hardly improving a story if you just go "I'm going to take that boring villain and make him even more powerful!". Oh well, I digress.

I'm not disagreeing with that, the points you made about Anankos are more or less what I said i.e. that he's a one-dimensional villain who wants to conquer/destroy the world because he's crazy. Your response to that post however, made it sound as if you believe that the concept of a third faction setting the other two up is in itself a worthless idea when the main problem with it is a lack of human emotion or motivation i.e. bad writing.

It's also worth pointing out that the third faction doesn't have to be Valla. I'm sure all of us in this thread could come up with a better reason to have a third route that doesn't involve it.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Phillius

[Thane]

I'm not disagreeing with that, the points you made about Anankos are more or less what I said i.e. that he's a one-dimensional villain who wants to conquer/destroy the world because he's crazy. Your response to that post however, made it sound as if you believe that the concept of a third faction setting the other two up is in itself a worthless idea when the main problem with it is a lack of human emotion or motivation i.e. bad writing.

It's also worth pointing out that the third faction doesn't have to be Valla. I'm sure all of us in this thread could come up with a better reason to have a third route that doesn't involve it.

Oh, no not at all. I mean, what I think should be the most important part of the story are the choice and the concept of family - of course, Fates decides to throw both of these out of the window. Anyway, a third faction could definitely be at play - hell, I wanted it to be Azura in at least one route.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Thane

[Time the Crestfallen]

Oh, no not at all. I mean, what I think should be the most important part of the story are the choice and the concept of family - of course, Fates decides to throw both of these out of the window. Anyway, a third faction could definitely be at play - hell, I wanted it to be Azura in at least one route.

Only if she can still be my waifu. Otherwise, we're gonna have some problems m8

[PeaceRibbon]

Ok, so I feel like this plot's all I've posted about recently, but you bring up some interesting points. And as usual I'll be covering Birthright. Sorry it's a bit belated, but I'll put everything under spoilers so it's much easier to skip. Ok, let's fire up dis broken record!

[spoiler=Politics]The idea of exploring the politics more is certainly an interesting idea and would have done wonders for Fates' world building, but there is one thing about your complaints I can't get behind: Ryoma's ignorance to Nohr's resource issues. We need to keep in mind, The closest Ryoma could have possibly gotten to Nohr is probably that vacation spot with the theater. Going beyond there would probably get his head rolling before he saw any of Nohr's blight in the capital, so to expect Ryoma to know EVERYTHING about such a hostile and recluseive kingdom is a bit much. And why would Ryoma have any reason to extend friendship to Nohr until after the war? It was ruled by a man who killed his father under the pretense of peace talks no less, and orchestrated his mother's death. I know you think these characters are archetypical, but if you look at them and their actions as if they had some depth it makes more sense.

[spoiler=Crying and Exploding crystals]Regarding Corrin, I generally agree. Granted I thought he was a liiiiitle more remorseful than you made him out to be, but that's purely my opinion. More moral grey-ness would also have been a boon since it follows the games theme.

As for the deaths, I get it, they weren't all that well done, but for me, their kinda what kept me engaged in the latter half of the plot. My main problem with the story is that it feels like all you're doing is slogging through seemingly random battles towards the castle after chapter 14, and as for heart-wrenching as it is, they spend waaay too much time worrying over Azura's song power. The death's were really what kept me sane because without them, all we'd be left with is a bland, no consequence charge into the enemy stronghold. And a hero with no consequences to his actions is so E rated it's not funny.

[spoiler=Wizardry]The end was pretty much what we all expected it to be after the rest of the game, and yeah the whole coming back form the dead thing is a strange choice, but there was Jesus imagery so I can't rightfully hate it too much. I'm not saying Jesus imagery can fix any plot, I'm just saying I really appreciate it when people put it in there. I mean c'mon, the player dies with his arms spread out. Pease tell me I'm the only one who saw that and not just Harry Potter parallels.

[Abvora]

The thing is that she wasn't particularly handicapped. They were IN Valla, and as demonstrated by the seventh chapter in Revelation, she knows essentially everything there is to know about the current conflict. Even if that weren't the case, we still don't see her even trying to reveal what she knows; she invades Hoshido without any remorse.

I think he means she had to keep quiet because otherwise the third route wouldn't exist. She has no in-character reason not to say anything, so they make her act out of character for the sake of the third route, which is a pretty big handicap.

[Loki Laufeyson]

OP, i really, really disagree with you regarding Niles. This character is actually really well written, and not exactly as deviant and sadist as he was in the Japanese version. The fact that his S support isnt terribly different from the FeMU, is really really nice. Pointing out too many taboos about same-sex marriage would have rubbed a lot of freaking people the wrong way. Trust. Me. It is good that the game's world doesnt seem to shun or point out this sort of thing. Forrest is another example of how the game doesnt go out of its way to show how "odd" a character is, because of what kind of implications that could carry for real world players. (Leo getting his shit chewed out by Elise in Forrest's paralogue is actually refreshing and lovely.) I also have this aversion to people saying "Niles is too horrible a person" because he really isnt, and it shows aversion to someone who doesnt seem to fit a mold. Considering Niles isnt actually written two-dimensionally, this is even more marked when i see people say that stuff. "I want my gays to be what i feel to be more comfortable." is really what i hear when i see this stuff. :/ Its also often ignoring the baby step Nintendo did (which is actually a HUGE step for them) and i cannot help but be immensely bothered by that.

While i am not fond of Rhajat and do wish our lesbian option was Soleil, because it makes sense for that character. I have to say i see why they did it with Rhajat. Mostly because shes an expy of Tharja and Tharja really should have been S supportable as either gender in Awakening. Either way, i think IS may try some new things with this in future installments.

Re: rant

[spoiler=Just in case]Kinda disagree about Niles - the fact that he doesn't really change the convo from male to female is good in my eyes. It means that he's not acting super-special just because he's about to marry the man of his dreams. IMO this is good, because it helps to normalize it (as opposed to making it exotic and condemning it, source: church). I didn't like Rhajat's one, because it felt like it was only there for player worship - had she tried to say the same thing to, say, Sophie, it wouldn't have worked, because Sophie wasn't the one that saved her.

The gay option, IMO, should've been Jakob/Felicia. You'll have both in your party short of killing them, and the servant/master thing is something that IS has done before (sorry Azel).

I thought that Japanese Soliel's treatment was depressingly realistic, given what I've heard about the treatment of the B part of LGBT. Not sure how much of that carried over to America, as her lone support in my library is with Laslow.

However, you probably have more insight than I do regarding this subject, so I'm gonna shut up now.

Arr. I would have liked it if Azura had been our lesbian option due to her importance in the story and her relationship with the MU is pretty much the same regardless of gender. Bolded, and how!!!

And i do think you are on to something about Soleil and the B side of LBGT. (you'd be surprised how much condemnation and bullshit bisexuals have to deal with even in that community. ;/)

[Leif]

OP, i really, really disagree with you regarding Niles. This character is actually really well written, and not exactly as deviant and sadist as he was in the Japanese version. The fact that his S support isnt terribly different from the FeMU, is really really nice. Pointing out too many taboos about same-sex marriage would have rubbed a lot of freaking people the wrong way. Trust. Me. It is good that the game's world doesnt seem to shun or point out this sort of thing. Forrest is another example of how the game doesnt go out of its way to show how "odd" a character is, because of what kind of implications that could carry for real world players. (Leo getting his shit chewed out by Elise in Forrest's paralogue is actually refreshing and lovely.) I also have this aversion to people saying "Niles is too horrible a person" because he really isnt, and it shows aversion to someone who doesnt seem to fit a mold. Considering Niles isnt actually written two-dimensionally, this is even more marked when i see people say that stuff. "I want my gays to be what i feel to be more comfortable." is really what i hear when i see this stuff. :/ Its also often ignoring the baby step Nintendo did (which is actually a HUGE step for them) and i cannot help but be immensely bothered by that.

While i am not fond of Rhajat and do wish our lesbian option was Soleil, because it makes sense for that character. I have to say i see why they did it with Rhajat. Mostly because shes an expy of Tharja and Tharja really should have been S supportable as either gender in Awakening. Either way, i think IS may try some new things with this in future installments.

Arr. I would have liked it if Azura had been our lesbian option due to her importance in the story and her relationship with the MU is pretty much the same regardless of gender. Bolded, and how!!!

And i do think you are on to something about Soleil and the B side of LBGT. (you'd be surprised how much condemnation and bullshit bisexuals have to deal with even in that community. ;/)

Trust me, I get that Niles was toned down and I don't really have a problem with Niles as a character. I just wish he weren't the only gay option. I like that he's chippy and cold towards others due to his horrible past, but I didn't appreciate the innuendos he'd thrust at Mozu (which is especially bad since she's looks 15) and Arthur in their respective supports. I guess I take issue with having LGBT characters with overly deviant qualities. Not all gays are like that.

You said that you liked how Forrest was handled, no? Did you see how Leo was embarrassed by him and acted cruelly towards him at first, but then feels ashamed for shaming his son? That's a nice character arc is it not? It really adds depth to Leo (I believe that he is the best-written character in the game) as well as Forrest, to an extent. I was hoping for something similar in the gay S support or have other people reacting to said gay couple. I think its OK to show people overcoming prejudices.

Anyways, I'm starting Chapter 26 in Revelation right now. Good lord, I didn't expect THAT to happen. Chapter 27 is the last chapter correct?

I still have 20 children to collect, and that annoys me slightly. -_-

Edited March 31, 2016 by Leif

[eclipse]

Arr. I would have liked it if Azura had been our lesbian option due to her importance in the story and her relationship with the MU is pretty much the same regardless of gender. Bolded, and how!!!

And i do think you are on to something about Soleil and the B side of LBGT. (you'd be surprised how much condemnation and bullshit bisexuals have to deal with even in that community. ;/)

Meh, Azura can die an old maid.

So, remember how an interracial couple would be treated, 100 years ago? Nowadays, telling your parents "hey I'm dating someone of another race" is a lot less likely to result in disapproval/being disowned/worse (won't speak for all families out there, but if societal disapproval today was anything like it was a century ago, I wouldn't see so many mixed-race kids around). My hope is that a century from now, a same-sex couple will be treated with a similar "oh that's nice" that an interracial couple gets. That's what I meant by normalization.