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Micaiah vs. Nohr Corrin (spoilers)

Micaiah or Nohrmui?  

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  1. 1. Who was the better character?



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The problem with that path, though, is that that's just Birthright-lite. You fight Nohr on both paths, so, ultimately, what's the difference? I still think the best route would be to have grey and grey morality; I do, after all, want to fight Hoshido in some manner.

No arguments there, but as it stands, the only real way for it to make sense for Corrin to ever want to side with Nohr is to actually simply want Hoshido eradicated, or at the very least, stopped. Like... If you're simply trying to end the war as cleanly as possible, there's no reason to ever do what you do in Conquest. Now... If Conquest ended with Corrin being like " I really ****ed that one up..." It'd be good. But they don't. Like for instance, you'd have to have Corrin believe that Nohr falling to Hoshido would be bad because then everyone would become under the influence of Hoshido with no real checks placed on this "King Ryoma," so he's willing to dismantle the kingdom simply to keep not only Nohr safe, but all of whatever the hell continent Fates takes place on. That would have been decent.

The problem is that there are no real politics in Fates, so Conquest ends up being the beat stick of analysis because it has potentially the best story as your character isn't necessarily beating up Hoshido because they think it's funny or because they only care about their family, it's because they are concerned with the long term consequences of Nohr -- the only potential check to Hoshido on the continent, falling. If they had basically implied that if Hoshido were given the opportunity to invade other places and force them under Hoshido's thumb, NOW we have potential for Conquest. Because Corrin would be concerned about the entire continent's well being in Conquest while Corrin Hoshido is more concerned with "doing what is right," but potentially leading to more dire consequences down the line. Garon becomes pointless to even worry about in Conquest in this version because Garon's mentality / inability to rule becomes crucial as the reason to hurry up and finish Hoshido off, because the choices Garon has been making are leading Nohr to ruin. You'd even have parallels able to be drawn from strategy versus tactics with Conquest being about strategy and Birthright being about tactics. Heck, the campaigns themselves would already lend to that gameplay wise. With Conquest's "never able to grind and go back," you have to plan out and ration your funds over the course of your journey and you can't simply plan one map at a time leading to more strategic gameplay (which it already has). You could potentially have had a story where its themes are everywhere, even the gameplay.

Corrin sucks because there's not enough of anything surrounding Corrin to be good. Corrin has nothing to react to, and the characters keep saying Corrin is right... Well outside of Leo and Takumi, but something is wrong with them. They don't realize what kind of world they're in

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That's just it.

Since Corrin is given no opportunities to grow, I can't say whether Corrin would've turned out better/worse than Micaiah. However, for all the world-building and growth, Micaiah managed to irritate me as a character anyway. That's why I give Corrin the advantage in this situation. I'm willing to put my bet on an unknown quantity, rather than one I know and don't care for.

So you're saying that a story that doesn't exist is better than Micaiah's story? As much as I agree that the story and tone of Fates ruined any chance Corrin had of being a good character, you can't really assign value to a story that was never written.

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It's really interesting, though...how the writing just goes one way but it feels like the characters want to pull the other way; at least in the case of what Corrin and Azura were planning about the whole Garon and the throne business and suddenly u-turns and decided to go on errands for Garon, instead of doing anything about the whole thing..and that's not the fault of the characters, its how the story is written.

With Micaiah, its less of a push and pull kind of situation: the plot follows different characters, different view points and different conflicts unlike Corrin in Conquest, so in a way, she has the advantage on how people react to her actions as a whole.

In Conquest, Corrin is painted as a hero, to one side (no matter the stupid decisions, mind you) but Micaiah is both depending on which side you're on.

Corrin would have benefited more with a similar situation to Micaiah's...at least, that's what I think anyway.

Hmmm, perhaps. At least, more perspectives would probably help, but I'm not sure that that would solve the core problem. That is, the plot itself refusing to be swayed by its characters. Micaiah only spends the back half of the game being railroaded and she's at least afforded some illusion of control. Corrin spends the entirety of Conquest being railroaded with basically no control over anything. The plot demands that Corrin continue serving Garon and openly burns any bridges Corrin could take to do anything that isn't the throne gambit.

The problem with that path, though, is that that's just Birthright-lite. You fight Nohr on both paths, so, ultimately, what's the difference? I still think the best route would be to have grey and grey morality; I do, after all, want to fight Hoshido in some manner.

Nohr already fights itself a whole lot in the current Conquest, though. Before the final push into Hoshido, C14 is the last time Corrin engages a Hoshidan force. C15 is Invaders, C16 is Shura's Nohrian bandits, C17 is Mokushu, C18 is Zola's Nohrians, C19 is the racist Kitsune, C20 is the neutral Wind Tribe and C21 is Faceless. So there's very little actual fighting against Hoshido as it is. And if you're just concerned about fighting against Hoshidan classes, then, well, Zombie Takumi and his Invaders have you covered.

Actually, an interesting twist on that whole concept of Corrin starting a revolution might to have Corrin join and unite the two rebel cells, then receive aid from Hoshido to take down Garon about halfway through the campaign. However, the battle is costly and Ryoma and Hinoka are also killed in action. This leaves Zombie Takumi as next in line and his first action as King of Hoshido is turn on his Nohrian allies while they're weakened (he can come up with some flimsy excuse about how Nohr is still evil—the Hoshidans would eagerly buy it). This would allow half of a campaign of fighting Hoshido while Takumi becomes an obvious parallel to Garon. Alternatively, instead of Ryoma dying to take down Garon, Takumi could assassinate him and pin the assassination on the Nohrian revolutionaries.

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No arguments there, but as it stands, the only real way for it to make sense for Corrin to ever want to side with Nohr is to actually simply want Hoshido eradicated, or at the very least, stopped. Like... If you're simply trying to end the war as cleanly as possible, there's no reason to ever do what you do in Conquest. Now... If Conquest ended with Corrin being like " I really ****ed that one up..." It'd be good. But they don't. Like for instance, you'd have to have Corrin believe that Nohr falling to Hoshido would be bad because then everyone would become under the influence of Hoshido with no real checks placed on this "King Ryoma," so he's willing to dismantle the kingdom simply to keep not only Nohr safe, but all of whatever the hell continent Fates takes place on. That would have been decent.

The problem is that there are no real politics in Fates, so Conquest ends up being the beat stick of analysis because it has potentially the best story as your character isn't necessarily beating up Hoshido because they think it's funny or because they only care about their family, it's because they are concerned with the long term consequences of Nohr -- the only potential check to Hoshido on the continent, falling. If they had basically implied that if Hoshido were given the opportunity to invade other places and force them under Hoshido's thumb, NOW we have potential for Conquest. Because Corrin would be concerned about the entire continent's well being in Conquest while Corrin Hoshido is more concerned with "doing what is right," but potentially leading to more dire consequences down the line. Garon becomes pointless to even worry about in Conquest in this version because Garon's mentality / inability to rule becomes crucial as the reason to hurry up and finish Hoshido off, because the choices Garon has been making are leading Nohr to ruin. You'd even have parallels able to be drawn from strategy versus tactics with Conquest being about strategy and Birthright being about tactics. Heck, the campaigns themselves would already lend to that gameplay wise. With Conquest's "never able to grind and go back," you have to plan out and ration your funds over the course of your journey and you can't simply plan one map at a time leading to more strategic gameplay (which it already has). You could potentially have had a story where its themes are everywhere, even the gameplay.

Corrin sucks because there's not enough of anything surrounding Corrin to be good. Corrin has nothing to react to, and the characters keep saying Corrin is right... Well outside of Leo and Takumi, but something is wrong with them. They don't realize what kind of world they're in

That's actually a somewhat decent idea. My idea involves, essentially, Hoshido supplying Nohr with food in exchange for Nohr not killing them, but then they go all Tokugawa isolationist; Nohr has to conquer them to avoid starvation. Maybe the Faceless steal food or something.

Edit: And yeah, zombie Takumi is great as a villain. Another idea I had was to have Ryoma die in Chapter 13, making Takumi King. Then, Corrin lets Garon die after witnessing the Chevoise massacre, but the extra rage Takumi has allows the spirit to fully posses him and he declares war.

Edited by blah the Prussian

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Regarding the Part 3 altough Micaiah is not aware of the blood pact until later it is stated that she knows (because her future sight powers) that Pelleas is chosing the best path for Daein at that moment, because even without it risking another war against Begnion is beyond questioning.

Also the point of racism is that altough it exists, is not the reason why Pelleas is going to war, and Micaiah is just obeying an order, thats it, if you compare it to a real life job is not so different, is the same reason Zelgius cannot evade pursuing the LA, etc.

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So you're saying that a story that doesn't exist is better than Micaiah's story? As much as I agree that the story and tone of Fates ruined any chance Corrin had of being a good character, you can't really assign value to a story that was never written.

A character who could've developed in myriad ways is better than a character who started off so awful that nothing short of a literary classic could've saved her. The unknown quantity was Corrin's development.

You call me a fool because you don't agree with me?

So I did a little bit of backwards quote hopping. . .and that's the exact wording you used on someone else. If you find it offensive, do NOT use it against other people.

So. . .either chill out or get out.

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You call me a fool because you don't agree with me?

No, I'm calling you a fool because you're calling other people fools for disagreeing with you, and you're acting so high-and-mighty and hostile towards people who did nothing to deserve it.

That's just it.

Since Corrin is given no opportunities to grow, I can't say whether Corrin would've turned out better/worse than Micaiah. However, for all the world-building and growth, Micaiah managed to irritate me as a character anyway. That's why I give Corrin the advantage in this situation. I'm willing to put my bet on an unknown quantity, rather than one I know and don't care for.

To each their own, but whatever the game doesn't show regarding Corrin is in headcanon territory, and I'd rather avoid putting basis in headcanon versus actual canon as much as possible.

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No, I'm calling you a fool because you're calling other people fools for disagreeing with you, and you're acting so high-and-mighty and hostile towards people who did nothing to deserve it.

The only one who's calling people fools for disagreeing with them is you.

I called him a fool because he kept going on about how i was avoiding his question, even though i pointed out to him multiple times that i did reply to his question.

How am i acting high-and-mighty?

Edited by BruceLee

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The only one who's calling people fools for disagreeing with them is you.

I called him a fool because he kept going on about how i was avoiding his question, even though i pointed out to him multiple times that i did reply to his question.

Yay for contradictions. You're calling him a fool because you disagree that you avoided his question, although he feels that you didn't answer him and didn't see how what you responded was an answer to your question. Maybe your answer wasn't CLEAR to him on how it answered his question, and that doesn't make him a fool?

How am i acting "high-and-mighty"?

Well, I could dig through the thread and your ISO and link examples in which I feel you are acting high and mighty, but I have to go teach high schoolers in a couple of minutes and don't have the time to do that. Instead, I will direct you to your reply above.

The only one who's calling people fools for disagreeing with them is you.

Why, THANK YOU, for assuming that you know my thoughts and mindset better than I do. THANK YOU for assuming that the reason I had given you is NOT the reason that I called you a fool. Oh no, you're know better than I do about my OWN THOUGHTS, and OF COURSE the REAL reason I called you a fool is because you disagree with me!

Fucking cut that shit out. You come off as playing the victim, which is ironically what I detest about Nohr!Kamui. -_-

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Yay for contradictions. You're calling him a fool because you disagree that you avoided his question, although he feels that you didn't answer him and didn't see how what you responded was an answer to your question. Maybe your answer wasn't CLEAR to him on how it answered his question, and that doesn't make him a fool?

Well, I could dig through the thread and your ISO and link examples in which I feel you are acting high and mighty, but I have to go teach high schoolers in a couple of minutes and don't have the time to do that. Instead, I will direct you to your reply above.

Why, THANK YOU, for assuming that you know my thoughts and mindset better than I do. THANK YOU for assuming that the reason I had given you is NOT the reason that I called you a fool. Oh no, you're know better than I do about my OWN THOUGHTS, and OF COURSE the REAL reason I called you a fool is because you disagree with me!

Fucking cut that shit out. You come off as playing the victim, which is ironically what I detest about Nohr!Kamui. -_-

No he just straight up refused to scroll up and see my reply to him even though i pointed it out twice. Instead he went on about how he was trashing my argument and i don't have answer.

How about you cut your shit out dude, writing in caps doesn't make you right. You're ignoring why i called him a fool, calling me hostile when it was him who antagonised me.

Edited by BruceLee

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No he just straight up refused to scroll up and see my reply to him even though i pointed it out twice. Instead he went on about how he was trashing my argument and i don't have answer.

How about you cut your shit out dude, writing in caps doesn't make you right. You're ignoring why i called him a fool, calling me hostile when it was him who antagonised me.

Have you considered that maybe he did and didn't think it really answered his question? Because if he feels that your response did not answer his question, and you're pointing over and over to an answer that he doesn't feel is sufficient, then in his mind he has trashed your argument.

I'll cut my shit out when you cut your shit out. I don't care why you called him a fool. If you don't like people calling you a fool, you don't get to do it to other people. Full stop. Right now, you're demonstrating to me that you're someone who thinks they're in the right and won't even pause to consider that just maybe they could be wrong about something, because they're just so right all the time. If you don't think that's the kind of person you are, you need to realize that you're not an innocent party in this and you had your share in escalating this situation and in antagonizing people, even if you don't think you did.

And if you just want to continue calling me ignorant, that I'm the only one full of shit and you're blameless, and I'm only calling you a fool because I disagree with your stance on Micaiah, I can always get the nice mod who already told you to chill out or get out back in here.

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Have you considered that maybe he did and didn't think it really answered his question? Because if he feels that your response did not answer his question, and you're pointing over and over to an answer that he doesn't feel is sufficient, then in his mind he has trashed your argument.

Except that's not the case at all, he just straight up refused to see my answer to him in which i admitted i forgot something he was pointing out(which is what he kept going on about that i had no answer to), which you would see if you actually read what was said.

'll cut my shit out when you cut your shit out. I don't care why you called him a fool. If you don't like people calling you a fool, you don't get to do it to other people. Full stop. Right now, you're demonstrating to me that you're someone who thinks they're in the right and won't even pause to consider that just maybe they could be wrong about something, because they're just so right all the time. If you don't think that's the kind of person you are, you need to realize that you're not an innocent party in this and you had your share in escalating this situation and in antagonizing people, even if you don't think you did.

I don't think i'm innocent in all this, i admit i shouldn't have resorted to name calling, but i had a better reason to do it than you did, and i don't like how high and mighty you are acting right now.

And if you just want to continue calling me ignorant, that I'm the only one full of shit and you're blameless, and I'm only calling you a fool because I disagree with your stance on Micaiah, I can always get the nice mod who already told you to chill out or get out back in here.

If the mod does something about me and not you right now then i call bullshit. You are being very unfriendly and throwing a lot of insults at me.

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A character who could've developed in myriad ways is better than a character who started off so awful that nothing short of a literary classic could've saved her. The unknown quantity was Corrin's development.

If we want to look at both protagonists from where they started off, we have:

Micaiah: A young girl, living in the defeated "bad guy" nation from the previous game, is struggling to resist the brutal occupation forces in her country. Her reckless, sacrificial nature worries her closest allies but is making her a peoples hero. Her morals will be put to the test when she has to choose between the well-being of her people versus the path to justice.

Corrin: A lord kidnapped from a bountiful country is raised in an brutal, war mongering nation, with no knowledge of their true heritage. They are locked up in a keep for most of their life so they are naive to most workings of the world. Eventually fate will lead to this lord discovering the truth of their real family and will have to choose which nation they belong to.

On paper, both characters have the potential for interesting stories and where they go is up to the competency of the writers. Where the stories could/should have gone is headcanon and probably shouldn't be considered in which we appraise higher. If you say "a rewritten Fates would be better than Radiant Dawn", then I can just as easily say "a rewritten Radiant Dawn is better than a rewritten Fates". It's all speculative.

If the mod does something about me and not you right now then i call bullshit. You are being very unfriendly and throwing a lot of insults at me.

Can you both 'take this outside'? You aren't even discussing the topic anymore.

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Regarding the actual question, as much as i dislike Micaiah and think she's a terrible character, she's still better than Corrin. She still has some good moments where she actually makes sense, the same can not be said for Corrin. He makes no sense pretty much the entire game. His actions contradict what he says, he comes off as a selfish, naïve and delusional person. I can't come up with anything that i like about him.

Edited by BruceLee

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That's actually a somewhat decent idea. My idea involves, essentially, Hoshido supplying Nohr with food in exchange for Nohr not killing them, but then they go all Tokugawa isolationist; Nohr has to conquer them to avoid starvation. Maybe the Faceless steal food or something.

Edit: And yeah, zombie Takumi is great as a villain. Another idea I had was to have Ryoma die in Chapter 13, making Takumi King. Then, Corrin lets Garon die after witnessing the Chevoise massacre, but the extra rage Takumi has allows the spirit to fully posses him and he declares war.

This is also a good idea. Geez, it's crazy how such a concept can go in so many wild directions.

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I think everyone needs to chill

i think we both know the answer to why this argument blew out of proportion, sadly.

with that said, is it weird for me to like both micaiah and corrin? granted most of my like of corrin is that i was pretty sheltered as well growing up, so i've kinda been there, not exactly, but i've had the same basic feeling of not knowing what the world was like.

by the end of the day, i say micaiah is a better handled character, but i i actually don't hate either one.

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i think we both know the answer to why this argument blew out of proportion, sadly.

with that said, is it weird for me to like both micaiah and corrin? granted most of my like of corrin is that i was pretty sheltered as well growing up, so i've kinda been there, not exactly, but i've had the same basic feeling of not knowing what the world was like.

by the end of the day, i say micaiah is a better handled character, but i i actually don't hate either one.

No. You can't like either. You must decide. It's illegal in fact to like both.

No, it's fine. Despite all I shit on Corrin and how much I don't like them, if someone else likes them, what am I gonna do? "Stop liking this character because I don't." I'll still talk to them about why I find them flawed and why I don't personally like them, but I'm not going to go "STOP LIKING X CHARACTER. STOP IT."

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No. You can't like either. You must decide. It's illegal in fact to like both.

No, it's fine. Despite all I shit on Corrin and how much I don't like them, if someone else likes them, what am I gonna do? "Stop liking this character because I don't." I'll still talk to them about why I find them flawed and why I don't personally like them, but I'm not going to go "STOP LIKING X CHARACTER. STOP IT."

Indeed. Fates has taught me that you only pick one side. The other side should be destroyed. Unless you are willing to throw money out of your pocket.

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i think we both know the answer to why this argument blew out of proportion, sadly.

with that said, is it weird for me to like both micaiah and corrin? granted most of my like of corrin is that i was pretty sheltered as well growing up, so i've kinda been there, not exactly, but i've had the same basic feeling of not knowing what the world was like.

by the end of the day, i say micaiah is a better handled character, but i i actually don't hate either one.

For what it's worth I basically agree. Corrin could certainly be better and I agree with some of the criticisms levelled against her, but there are still some interesting things worth discussing about the character, which is more than I can say for many video game main characters, including FE ones.

Micaiah's the best, and reading this whole conversation has raised my opinion on her. Easily one of the most nuanced major FE characters, in a series which sorely lacks it.

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If we want to look at both protagonists from where they started off, we have:

Micaiah: A young girl, living in the defeated "bad guy" nation from the previous game, is struggling to resist the brutal occupation forces in her country. Her reckless, sacrificial nature worries her closest allies but is making her a peoples hero. Her morals will be put to the test when she has to choose between the well-being of her people versus the path to justice.

Corrin: A lord kidnapped from a bountiful country is raised in an brutal, war mongering nation, with no knowledge of their true heritage. They are locked up in a keep for most of their life so they are naive to most workings of the world. Eventually fate will lead to this lord discovering the truth of their real family and will have to choose which nation they belong to.

On paper, both characters have the potential for interesting stories and where they go is up to the competency of the writers. Where the stories could/should have gone is headcanon and probably shouldn't be considered in which we appraise higher. If you say "a rewritten Fates would be better than Radiant Dawn", then I can just as easily say "a rewritten Radiant Dawn is better than a rewritten Fates". It's all speculative.

I wrote out everything about Corrin/Micaiah here, which I'm linking 'cause I'm lazy. Micaiah's problem is that what sets her apart from everyone else is so ridiculously pronounced that I can't take her seriously. The two "power" parallels I see are sacrifice vs. dragonstone (both are gameplay mechanics, and I have no issues with either) and Yune vs. Yato (trying to compare a goddess and a sword. . .yeah).

It's a matter of "a character I don't like in a good story" versus "a character I don't have much opinion on in a story that doesn't let them grow". Micaiah had her chance in a well-fleshed story, and failed. Hence why I prefer Corrin.

i think we both know the answer to why this argument blew out of proportion, sadly.

with that said, is it weird for me to like both micaiah and corrin? granted most of my like of corrin is that i was pretty sheltered as well growing up, so i've kinda been there, not exactly, but i've had the same basic feeling of not knowing what the world was like.

by the end of the day, i say micaiah is a better handled character, but i i actually don't hate either one.

That's a ban-worthy offense! :P:

But really, it's an opinion on a video game. If that's how you feel, go for it!

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Posted · Hidden by eclipse, May 20, 2016 - bug off
Hidden by eclipse, May 20, 2016 - bug off

I get a warning and Sunwoo doesn't? Fucking bullshit, mod.

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Corrin suffers from how he's supposed to be a noble boy in a corrupt land who goes around making hard choices, but at the same time the narrative twists itself to frame him as a good boy who dindu nuffin'. Whether it's the one sibling who doesn't go out of his way to back Corrin getting called out for it and turning into a hate monster, or the leftover Hoshido siblings totally digging him after all his antics.

In Tactics Ogre, you can have the lead take part in a massacre to rally support for his organization. News spreads of his role in the massacre and so he's known as a butcher. The game never says he surely did what should have been done, even if the player supports it.

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