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Kipor Analyzes Stuff in Fates

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Hello people, and welcome! To a “Kipor Analyzes Stuff in Fates”. I’m your host, Kipor, and today we shall begin the analysis!

... Did that sound like a youtuber intro? Yes? Woohoo, success!

So, now in all seriousness, welcome everyone. This little topic right here is one in which I... well, analyze stuff. But! That doesn’t give you a really good idea on what I’ll be doing here, right? Well, allow me to try and explain myself.

Now, as some of you may know... Fates gets a lot of shit. Let me repeat that, slowly: a LOT of shit. Now, it isn’t as if that’s undeserved per se: the story has some pretty considerable faults and, well, let’s say it’s not exactly what most people were looking for and leave it at that, hm?

But, thing is! One of the things I noticed, and some may have noticed as well, is that many of the points raised against Fates seem to come from... misunderstanding, so to say. It may seem weird to say that, but characters and events in Fates sometimes are a lot more complex that they may seem at first. What is deliberately shown to us is, many times, no half of what is really going on. You need to analyze something so that you can truly understand what is going on and why is it going on, why things are that way.

Want a example? When, exactly, is it explicitly said that Anankos possessed Takumi in Conquest?

Now, to explain a little more in what I’m going to do... it’s pretty simple, truth be told. I will try to analyze things. Characters, events, you name it. Tell me something you would like to hear an analyses on and, well, I’ll try to do it. I’ll try to explain what happened, I will try to explain the motivations and reasoning behind some actions. “Try” being the keyword here, folks.

Keep in mind, the point of this is to discuss said things and to make the story better for everyone in a way or another. Also keep in mind that this is my explanation, based on how I interpreted things. And, this may seem hard to believe, but I’m not the “Lord of Truth”. What I say isn’t necessarily right and you don’t need to agree with it, and that’s fine, I won’t push it down your throat. What I’m offering here is no more than a point of view, a way to look at things, a different perspective. If you agree or disagree with that, or if you want to discuss something… well, that’s up to you.

Also, I feel I must put this here before anything else: not a native English speaker! I’m born and raised in Brazil, buddies, and I’ve had no formal training in English besides verb to be. So, if things are a little hard to understand, well, my apologies in advance!

Now, with that said, let us proceed to the very first thing I want to analyze…

CROWN PRINCE XANDER OF NOHR

Now, this guy is hated, I must tell you that. At least in what pertains to the story itself; seems like people like him a lot more in supports. But, what I’m going to get into is story. So, ahem, let’s go!

The oldest of the Nohr siblings, Xander is – and correct me if I’m wrong since I’m not checking this particular piece of information – the firstborn son of Garon, before all the others born to his other wives and mistresses. One thing that is a pretty big part about the character of Xander is that, unlike everyone else (including us), he saw and lived with the actual Garon. Not the goo monster that twirls his mustache while training his evil speeches, but the actual, living and (supposedly) good Garon. Now, we don’t know really that much about this Garon since we ever saw it, but no-one can deny that he was very important to Xander. Described as a intimidating – but nevertheless kind – father, Garon was a very important piece in shaping who Xander is. Throughout the story, it’s made pretty clear that Xander had a lot of love, respect and admiration for the man that Garon was.

Fast forward a couple years and we have a Garon that is not exactly that lovable. I mean, if you don’t enjoy guys who eat kitten-soup, then I guess you won’t be a fan of Garon. But, as far as Xander knows, that evil Garon was the same Garon he loved. And, as we can see, he thinks he is sick. Not, I can’t remember if this was during Birthright, Conquest or Revelations, but one specific scene shows that: one where Xander is speaking to Leo and talks about how their father is sick and how he would get better after Hoshido is conquered.

Now – is it just me, or do we have here one of the main motivations for Xander during the war?

But, let us establish somethings now. Let us talk about loyalties, hm?

As with the rest of the siblings, Xander displays a strong sense of loyalty towards his siblings. He loves them, after all, but, unlike the rest of the siblings, he doesn’t love them above all else. In fact, as much as Xander cares about them, there are two things that he loves above them: his father – for the reasons stated before – and his home: the Kingdom of Nohr. If we were to organize things, we could say his loyalties and priorities are the following:

FIRST – THE KINGDOM OF NOHR

SECOND – HIS FATHER, GARON

THIRD – HIS SIBLINGS (CAMILLA, LEO, ELISE AND THE AVATAR)

Now, let’s take a moment to analyze this, shall we? Let’s consider these priorities and think about how they relate to the story.

  • During the Birthright campaign, Xander displays a lot of hatred towards the Avatar. Well, maybe “hatred” is kind of a strong word, but he is definetly angry at the Avatar, and this is because of the betrayal. By siding with Hoshido, the Avatar betrayed both his family, his family (well, Xander’s father at any rate) and the kingdom of Nohr in Xander’s eyes, which motivates that hate.
  • Xander consistently shows himself determined to follow the orders of his father – even if that puts him at odds with his siblings. That is something that makes sense for his character, not only because his loyalty towards his father is greater than the loyalty he feels towards his siblings, but also because he truly believes (or deludes himself to believe) that his father have the best interests of Nohr at heart, what makes him think that whatever his father orders is for the greater good of Nohr.
  • During the end of Conquest, Xander threatens to kill the Avatar after he tells the siblings about goo-Garon if his claims are proven false. Again, that is in character with Xander; he loves Avatar and is loyal to him, but if what he’s saying is a lie, then he is trying to incite the siblings to rebel against Garon – which would be an act of treachery both to his father and the kingdom of Nohr.
  • At the same time, during the end of Conquest, Xander is the first of the siblings to take up arms to fight against Garon after seeing the truth in what the Avatar says. That is because at that point he realized that he was never following his real father during this time and that whatever that thing was, it was manipulating and sabotaging Nohr for it’s own ideals. That makes goo-Garon an enemy to Xander, since that means he goes against the three things Xander holds dearest.
  • During Revelations, Xander eventually betrays Garon. That is the only route in which this happens, and that is motivated by one thing: he hear Garon talk about how he wished to destroy Nohr. This, at the same time, made Xander realize that this Garon was not the same Garon he knew and triggered his buttons by going against his kingdom.

And now, now we’ve reached the juicy part: Elise’s death in Birthright. One of the biggest things that make people hate Xander is how he insisted on fighting the Avatar, even after killing his own sister by accident during said fight. A lot of people wanted Xander to stop fighting at that point, to realize the mistake he was making and to turn against Garon… but it’s simply not that easy.

Remember the priorities of Xander? Nohr, father, siblings. Nohr, father, siblings. Even if Garon was a cruel tyrant who killed people on a whim and declared a invasion upon Hoshido, Xander still saw the man he admired and loved. He thought that Garon was sick, he thought the war was for the good of Nohr, and he was loyal to the bone to this cause: Hans himself praises his loyalty to Nohr in Revelations. Turning against his father or simply doing nothing would both be a betrayal to the two things he loved the most: his country and father.

Does that mean he didn’t love Elise? That he didn’t care about her death? No, not at all. Xander loved her a lot, he loved all his siblings. His anger toward the Avatar is built both upon his feelings of betrayal and on the love he had for the sibling that turned against the things he holds dearest. When Elise was killed by his blade, Xander broke: it really is as simple as that. He was sad, he was depressed, and he wanted to die. But still, he felt like he had to defend the things he cared about. It was not a matter of simply ignoring the dying wish of his sister, but a matter of Xander not being able to follow that wish: to stand down would mean that he would let the forces of Hoshido reach (and as far as he knows, kill) his father while, at the same time, mean that he would let Nohr, the country that he loves, lose the war. He would let the two things he held dearest to his heart down if he were to follow his sister wishes, and that is something that he was unwilling to do.

During the story, Xander is repeatedly described and brave and noble. And, at the end of the day, he was. He never feared any enemy or any situation, always charging into the thick of battle regardless of the odds (as shown during Conquest, when he fights the Faceless while the Avatar makes his/her escape). And he was noble; that was shown in his sense of chivalry (ordering Peri and Laslow to not interfere in the duel against the Avatar), in the regal and imposing way he carried himself (very much what one would expect for a king or prince) and in his sense of duty towards the crown and king, carrying his missions in the best way possible (while at the same time trying to damage-control his father “madness”, as Leo says in Conquest by pointing out how the Nohrian siblings try to deal with Garon’s orders, as well as shown in the prologue with sparing Rinkah and Kaze).

In the end, the conclusion I reach upon trying to analyze Xander’s character is basically this: he is very complex. He is a man with a great sense of honor and a strong code of morals, but with misguided loyalties that lead him to do things he would otherwise not do. He isn’t blind to how evil Garon is, but he can’t bring himself to go against the father he loved and admired so much in the past, nor against the nation he was born into. His sense of duty to father and nation guide his actions and hand, but he is not without his own way of thinking; while he tends to avoid going openly against his father wishes, he has no qualms against acting on his own at times when he feels so is needed. And, despite being very loyal to his father, Xander’s ultimate loyalty is to his country; if his country is on the line, he would go even against his father, and if he feels that something his father orders is not in the interest of Nohr and said thing goes against something Xander himself holds dear, then he is willing to challenge his own father for it (as shown in Conquest when he refuses to kill Corrin for no good reason).

… So, uh… I hope this is legible? And I hope this was actually enjoyable. So, um, that said, I… well, that’s basically it I had in mind for now so, uh… be sure to… y’know… recommend a character or… stuff… you would like me to analyze! Yeah! That would be cool, I guess… I mean, at least reasonably cool as far as things go and… well, like I said, I hope this can be fun for you guys since it’s definitely been a lot of fun for me and, I, well, hope I’m not doing anything wrong with this and all, so I, uh, I hope to…

... Y’know what? I’m just gonna shut up now. See ya.

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Wow. Thats an amazing analysis. I could never have done as such to that extent, let alone explain it. Wait, english isn't your native language? Because wow, it sure looks like it O_O Even I can't write proper english like that. Kudos to you.

I'd like to see if you can analyze the siblings age differences (both Nohr and Hoshido, plus Azura). I have an idea on it, but I can't seem to organize my thoughts to explain it. I'd like to see your take on it too. :D

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And now, now we’ve reached the juicy part: Elise’s death in Birthright. One of the biggest things that make people hate Xander is how he insisted on fighting the Avatar, even after killing his own sister by accident during said fight. A lot of people wanted Xander to stop fighting at that point, to realize the mistake he was making and to turn against Garon… but it’s simply not that easy.

Remember the priorities of Xander? Nohr, father, siblings. Nohr, father, siblings. Even if Garon was a cruel tyrant who killed people on a whim and declared a invasion upon Hoshido, Xander still saw the man he admired and loved. He thought that Garon was sick, he thought the war was for the good of Nohr, and he was loyal to the bone to this cause: Hans himself praises his loyalty to Nohr in Revelations. Turning against his father or simply doing nothing would both be a betrayal to the two things he loved the most: his country and father.

Does that mean he didn’t love Elise? That he didn’t care about her death? No, not at all. Xander loved her a lot, he loved all his siblings. His anger toward the Avatar is built both upon his feelings of betrayal and on the love he had for the sibling that turned against the things he holds dearest. When Elise was killed by his blade, Xander broke: it really is as simple as that. He was sad, he was depressed, and he wanted to die. But still, he felt like he had to defend the things he cared about. It was not a matter of simply ignoring the dying wish of his sister, but a matter of Xander not being able to follow that wish: to stand down would mean that he would let the forces of Hoshido reach (and as far as he knows, kill) his father while, at the same time, mean that he would let Nohr, the country that he loves, lose the war. He would let the two things he held dearest to his heart down if he were to follow his sister wishes, and that is something that he was unwilling to do.

During the story, Xander is repeatedly described and brave and noble. And, at the end of the day, he was. He never feared any enemy or any situation, always charging into the thick of battle regardless of the odds (as shown during Conquest, when he fights the Faceless while the Avatar makes his/her escape). And he was noble; that was shown in his sense of chivalry (ordering Peri and Laslow to not interfere in the duel against the Avatar), in the regal and imposing way he carried himself (very much what one would expect for a king or prince) and in his sense of duty towards the crown and king, carrying his missions in the best way possible (while at the same time trying to damage-control his father “madness”, as Leo says in Conquest by pointing out how the Nohrian siblings try to deal with Garon’s orders, as well as shown in the prologue with sparing Rinkah and Kaze).

As I pointed out in another thread, this doesn't really hold up. After Elise dies, Xander goes easy on Corrin; he admits as much. He is no longer really trying to defend either his country or his father.

This leaves me with one of two possible conclusions, neither of which is very flattering for Xander:

1) He's a coward who can't face up to his responsibility for Elise's death, and so seeks the easy way out by forcing Corrin to kill him, even though he knows how much Corrin loves him. He also doesn't even consider that Leo and Camilla will be even more torn up to hear that their big brother is dead as well as their baby sister.

2) He ultimately agrees with what Elise told him, and wants to stand down, but he convinces himself that he can't abandon his loyalty to Garon, so he puts on a show. That's not really being true to himself; that's being too weak to make a stand for what is right.

So either he listens to Elise and is too weak to follow through, or he doesn't and he's a snivelling coward who abandons his obligations to his family because he feels sad and guilty. He's only brave and noble when it's easy to be so.

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This was a good read. I very much enjoyed reading how Xander's character revolves around his 3 priorities and seeing the evidence to support this.

My main problem with Story Xander is that he is unable to see how his decisions (excluding following a madman's orders) hurts the one thing he cares most about, making him come across as an idiot and a coward.

Granted he does have his moments in chapters 7,9 16, 20 and 25 where he displays his most likeable trait (being his love for his family), being a supportive brother to Corrin, bravery and actually going against his father on two occasions. But Xander does not come through when it counts and it seriously hurts his character, chapter 18 being his worst showing.

Xander ultimately is a casualty of fates poor writing, but hey at least he's solid in his supports which for me is the main factor on deciding whether a character is good or not.

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People who speak fluent English but apologize for their 'less than perfect' English really grind my gears.

Lemme tell you why that's bullshit a proper analysis but I still disagree with your conclusions.

Part of my counterargument is going to be directed at the way the story is told, but it's important for how players perceive and appreciate characters.

Xander's worst behavior is in Birthright where we never see his motivations beyond his blind loyalty to Garon. Even in Conquest, his fond memories of his father are only told through supports so if you didn't read them, you'd never know why he's so stubbornly loyal. EVEN IF you read his supports, WE never get to see this kinder Garon. All we have is kitten-soup gourmet Garon to base our opinions off of. Putting the antagonist's primary motivation in optional content or not telling it at all is terrible story-telling.

So, let's look at this list of priorities: Country > Father > Siblings.

What exactly is Nohr's stake in this war? We never really hear WHY this conquest needs to happen. Silas (iirc) mentions in Birthright that Nohr has food shortages, but it's not treated like it's central to the story (no one brings it up in Conquest). The only reason they are marching off to war is loyalty to Dr. Evil. You say Xander must fight for his country but his country is just war-mongering. Xander wouldn't need to defend Nohr against Kamui's counterstrike if Garon hadn't attacked Hoshido in the first place. Should I mention that Garon assassinated TWO of Hoshido's sovereigns? Nohr really has it coming.

You say that Xander remembers a kinder Garon but how much good karma could Garon have that Xander isn't horrified by his present-day behavior? Garon kills defenseless prisoners, casually orders the execution of his own children, openly delights in Kamui's suffering and shows signs of madness (his communion with Anankos, that even fellow puppy-kicker Iago is freaked out by). No matter how rose-tinted Xander's glasses might be, "this guy is bad news" should be first on his mind. Xander is "concerned" and his solution is "maybe if we conquer the world, dad will stop being so darn crazy." I hate to invoke Godwin's law but can you imagine if a Nazi said "I didn't LIKE the things Hitler did but I thought he'd cool off if we took over Europe first. Whoops."

Apparently Xander cares about Nohr, even though if he did, he probably wouldn't serve a war-mongering tyrant. Apparently her cares about Garon even though Garon is nothing but cruel and possibly insane. So how much does he care for those siblings? Not a lot, apparently. The other Nohrian children are deathly afraid of disobeying Garon and for good reason. Garon (in Conquest) tries to have Kamui killed multiple times and isn't shy to gloat about it. Does Xander really care about his siblings when they are constantly in mortal peril because of Garon? Xander is so loyal to Garon that he threatens to kill Kamui in Conquest and ignores his sister's sacrifice in Birthright. His Birthright behavior is particularly bad because (as Seafarer explained) not only does he make Elise's efforts to reunite their family meaningless, he further hurts his siblings by 1. forcing Kamui to kill their own brother and 2. depriving Leon and Camilla of ANOTHER sibling.

Xander isn't brave or noble. A brave man would stand up to the injustices of his country. If he were noble, he wouldn't believe in moral relativism ("Justice in an illusion"). Xander will be heroic when it's convenient but those morals disappear when Garon is around.

Let me quote another Fire Emblem character who was similarly devoted to his country and liege but actually had a backbone, Duessel.

“Your Majesty, you know that I will gladly lay down my life for an honorable cause! But these orders- and all of our recent actions- they are not just! If I saw any way in which this invasion protected Grado, I would hold my tongue. But now, Renais is left ungoverned to drown in chaos, and we gain nothing! Why do you wage this war? What is it you hope to achieve? You've sent our men to fight and die for nothing! This isn't war- it's murder!”

That's the moral fiber that Xander needed and never had.

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Wow. Thats an amazing analysis. I could never have done as such to that extent, let alone explain it. Wait, english isn't your native language? Because wow, it sure looks like it O_O Even I can't write proper english like that. Kudos to you.

I'd like to see if you can analyze the siblings age differences (both Nohr and Hoshido, plus Azura). I have an idea on it, but I can't seem to organize my thoughts to explain it. I'd like to see your take on it too. :D

Thank you! Hahaha, I'm afraid a good part of that is paying attention to auto-correct and using google translate whenever I have a doubt about something. I went through that post several times before posting, so I hope there weren't a lot of mistakes.

Sure! I never thought about that in depth, but I can see why it can be interesting. Gonna start doing some research on that, see what I can come up with.

As I pointed out in another thread, this doesn't really hold up. After Elise dies, Xander goes easy on Corrin; he admits as much. He is no longer really trying to defend either his country or his father.

This leaves me with one of two possible conclusions, neither of which is very flattering for Xander:

1) He's a coward who can't face up to his responsibility for Elise's death, and so seeks the easy way out by forcing Corrin to kill him, even though he knows how much Corrin loves him. He also doesn't even consider that Leo and Camilla will be even more torn up to hear that their big brother is dead as well as their baby sister.

2) He ultimately agrees with what Elise told him, and wants to stand down, but he convinces himself that he can't abandon his loyalty to Garon, so he puts on a show. That's not really being true to himself; that's being too weak to make a stand for what is right.

So either he listens to Elise and is too weak to follow through, or he doesn't and he's a snivelling coward who abandons his obligations to his family because he feels sad and guilty. He's only brave and noble when it's easy to be so.

Hmmm... I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think what went on is exactly what you're saying in those two options (thought it does lean considerably towards the second one). Personally, I think Xander agreed with the sentiment of what Elise asked - stop figthing his family - but I don't think he necessarily thinks that this is the right thing to do. What I mean by that is the following: he is the crown prince. In his mind, this estabilishes a certain sense of duty that he must follow, certain things he must do. Being loyal to father and country is one of those things, and while I think that he knows Garon is more-than-a-little-off-the-line, the respect and admiration he had for him, joined by this sense of duty, made him so loyal. So, in his mind, following his father's orders (at least where they are sensible) and protecting Nohr (both crown and country) is the "right thing to do", because of his position.

So, basically, what I think is that while he, Xander the Person, wanted to do what Elise asked and stop figthing, Xander the Crown Prince still thought he needed to keep his loyalty and defeat Corrin. In other words, he was conflicted, and that internal conflict made him unable to go all out on Corrin. Like I said, it leans towards the second, but differenciates in that he's not putting a show: he really is trying, even if he ultimately can't bring himself to give his all. And, of course, there is the whole "depressed state after killing sister" to take into account too.

Wow, that's a very good essay, especially since English isn't your first language. Kudos to you!

Thank you! Your kind words are appreaciated, good sir!

i liked this, more so because i thought the same for the most part.

i do feel like in birthright he went 'suicide by cop" after Elise's death, but i don't hold that on him.

i'd wanna die too if i killed my cinnamon roll sister

Yeah, like I said to Seafarer, I do think this played a role in it, but that at the same time the issue with Xander was deeper than that, you know? But it's cool! I'm just trying to explain (and at the same time, understand) his motivations for what he did in various points.

People who speak fluent English but apologize for their 'less than perfect' English really grind my gears.1

Lemme tell you why that's bullshit a proper analysis but I still disagree with your conclusions.

Part of my counterargument is going to be directed at the way the story is told, but it's important for how players perceive and appreciate characters.

Xander's worst behavior is in Birthright where we never see his motivations beyond his blind loyalty to Garon. Even in Conquest, his fond memories of his father are only told through supports so if you didn't read them, you'd never know why he's so stubbornly loyal. EVEN IF you read his supports, WE never get to see this kinder Garon. All we have is kitten-soup gourmet Garon to base our opinions off of. Putting the antagonist's primary motivation in optional content or not telling it at all is terrible story-telling.2

So, let's look at this list of priorities: Country > Father > Siblings.

What exactly is Nohr's stake in this war? We never really hear WHY this conquest needs to happen. Silas (iirc) mentions in Birthright that Nohr has food shortages, but it's not treated like it's central to the story (no one brings it up in Conquest). The only reason they are marching off to war is loyalty to Dr. Evil. You say Xander must fight for his country but his country is just war-mongering. Xander wouldn't need to defend Nohr against Kamui's counterstrike if Garon hadn't attacked Hoshido in the first place. Should I mention that Garon assassinated TWO of Hoshido's sovereigns? Nohr really has it coming.3

You say that Xander remembers a kinder Garon but how much good karma could Garon have that Xander isn't horrified by his present-day behavior? Garon kills defenseless prisoners, casually orders the execution of his own children, openly delights in Kamui's suffering and shows signs of madness (his communion with Anankos, that even fellow puppy-kicker Iago is freaked out by). No matter how rose-tinted Xander's glasses might be, "this guy is bad news" should be first on his mind. Xander is "concerned" and his solution is "maybe if we conquer the world, dad will stop being so darn crazy." I hate to invoke Godwin's law but can you imagine if a Nazi said "I didn't LIKE the things Hitler did but I thought he'd cool off if we took over Europe first. Whoops."4

Apparently Xander cares about Nohr, even though if he did, he probably wouldn't serve a war-mongering tyrant. Apparently her cares about Garon even though Garon is nothing but cruel and possibly insane. So how much does he care for those siblings? Not a lot, apparently. The other Nohrian children are deathly afraid of disobeying Garon and for good reason. Garon (in Conquest) tries to have Kamui killed multiple times and isn't shy to gloat about it. Does Xander really care about his siblings when they are constantly in mortal peril because of Garon? Xander is so loyal to Garon that he threatens to kill Kamui in Conquest and ignores his sister's sacrifice in Birthright. His Birthright behavior is particularly bad because (as Seafarer explained) not only does he make Elise's efforts to reunite their family meaningless, he further hurts his siblings by 1. forcing Kamui to kill their own brother and 2. depriving Leon and Camilla of ANOTHER sibling.5

Xander isn't brave or noble. A brave man would stand up to the injustices of his country. If he were noble, he wouldn't believe in moral relativism ("Justice in an illusion"). Xander will be heroic when it's convenient but those morals disappear when Garon is around.6

Let me quote another Fire Emblem character who was similarly devoted to his country and liege but actually had a backbone, Duessel.

“Your Majesty, you know that I will gladly lay down my life for an honorable cause! But these orders- and all of our recent actions- they are not just! If I saw any way in which this invasion protected Grado, I would hold my tongue. But now, Renais is left ungoverned to drown in chaos, and we gain nothing! Why do you wage this war? What is it you hope to achieve? You've sent our men to fight and die for nothing! This isn't war- it's murder!”

That's the moral fiber that Xander needed and never had.

Ooooh, boy, that is going to be a long one.

1: #sorrynotsorry

2: Wait... how does that change anything in what pertains to the discussion at hand? I mean, we're discussing Xander's character here, not the story of Birthright, Conquest or Revelations. Sure, one of the things I tried to do is explain his behavior at certain points of the story, but those are relevant to his character. The discussion is not exactly about how good is his development through a particular campaign or how is the development of a particular story, but about trying to understand his character in a general sense and trying to figure out why he acts in a particular way at certain events. I understand what you're getting at, but I don't think the fact that the story-telling is not great is particularly relevant to the issue at hand (with the exception of we never seeing the kind Garon. I agree with you that seeing this kind Garon would help in understanding and empathizing with the character of Xander, though, that said, the lack of this doesn't decharacterizes him (I'm half sure there a easier word for that. Blame Google Translate)).

3: True, Nohr is the agressor and, while it's hinted at other motivations besides Garon for the attacks, it's not really elaborated so much on them. But, does that really change things that much? Xander is the crown prince. As the crown prince of any nation, duty and honor demands that you follow the will of that nation and defend it's interests. Granted, you may choose to not do so if you disagree with said interested in a moral or ethical point, but in doing that you are going against what your duty demands of you. While it's true that Nohr attacked Hoshido, the fact that Hoshido is attacking Nohr doesn't change. It's not so much a question of who is in the right or wrong; Xander has loyalty and duty to his nation, and regardless of whether Nohr is on the right or wrong, defending Nohr and it's interests is one of his priorities. And, like I said in the analyzes, he believes (even if deluding himself to it) that his father have Nohr's best interests in mind, which motivates him to work towards it's goals.

4: You speak as if turning against your father is a easy thing to do. It really is not, especially when you’re in a position such as Xander – when said father is someone who you admired and respected for years. Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying that what he did is the right thing or anything like that, but I’m explaining his motivations. Knowing that there’s something wrong with someone does not mean you will want to act against said person, especially if said person is someone dear to you. For example, take Rhaegar from GRRM A Song of Ice and Fire. He knew his father was dangerous, knew his father was mad, was known for being brave and noble and kind, but never acted against him. Even after his father burned a man to death, had another strangled while laughing, called the heads of people innocents and started one of the greatest civil wars in the history of the kingdom, he didn’t come to the capital and put his father in chains. Instead, he personally commanded the royal army to battle with the rebels.

Whoa, actually, Xander is a lot like Rhaegar in regard to their fathers…

5: Now, you’re taking a lot of things out of the equation here. For example: Xander defends his siblings from his father a lot of times, both in indirect ways (sending Elise and her retainers to help Corrin, for example) and in a lot more direct ways (outright calling his father out and saying he won’t kill Corrin for him). As I tried to explain in my analyzes, Xander’s threat to Corrin is because, if proven false, Corrin would have been trying to incite the siblings to rebel against Garon, which would go directly against two of his priorities – and like I said, his father and country are bigger priorities for him than his siblings. Similarly, he doesn’t simply ignore Elise’s death; I’m not going to repeat myself since I feel I’ve already elaborated on this particular point, but things go deep in regards to that, and even if they didn’t, it’s not like the character doesn’t literally show himself to be deeply saddened by her death.

6: No, that would be a just man. To be brave is not to stand against injustices, but to not fear your enemies, to face challenges head on, to show no fear. You can very easily be a brave man fighting for an unjust cause. Likewise, while one of the meanings of noble truly pertains to an exalted moral, the word has many meanings, and Xander falls in a lot of them. Like I pointed out, he displays several noble traits, both in the way he acts and in the way he carries himself. True, you may try to make a point of questioning his nobility in regards to his morals, but even so he displays a sense of morality and honor at several points: insisting on a duel without assistance, granting Ryoma the duel he asked, defending Corrin from things like the Faceless or Iago and Hans… hell, one can even say that sticking to your nation and following your duty and sense of loyalty, regardless of your sentiments about it’s ruler and what he does until the bitter end is honorable. So, there’s that.

Also, Tactician D., I forgot to quote you - sorry about that! Thank you for taking the time to read this, and yeah, I can see your point. Though I feel like this is something kind of inevitable with this kind of characters. In Xander's case, I believe his loyalty to his father causes him to believe that following him is the best for Nohr, but we know it's not and it seems sometimes that he is deluding himself to think in a particular way. I can understand why he acts in this particular way, but, while I would not necessarily call it cowardish, he's definetly not acting in the most brilliant way in the situation. Understandable, but... y'know...

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Thank you! Your kind words are appreaciated, good sir!

...I'm a woman... *sobs*

lok jk, it's okay

Edited by Abvora

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I enjoyed the read. There are minor points I can go over in more detail when I'm not on mobile and about to go to sleep.

My main point is I think Xander is late 20s, maybe around 28. Garon slimified around the time Elise was born, whose about 14. That means he had the majority of his childhood to get to know the real Garon, explaining his loyalty. It's also not that easy to betray one's country. Even the most obviously evil nations in the world only have a small minority of people defect. The Camus archetype persists because it's true to history.

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Can I just say that I think you have his priority order wrong? If he really wanted what was best for Nohr, he'd have stood aside and let Corrin past. His loyalty to his father clearly overrules his loyalty to Nohr; otherwise, your interpretation requires that he's an idiot.

As I said, he's only brave when it's easy; when there's no conflict between his loyalties; no hard choice to make. When his loyalties are challenged, he always makes the easy choice, without thought for what that choice means for others.

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i liked this, more so because i thought the same for the most part.

i do feel like in birthright he went 'suicide by cop" after Elise's death, but i don't hold that on him.

i'd wanna die too if i killed my cinnamon roll sister

yeah pretty much my thoughts. In BR, hes pretty damn suicidal and figures he'd let Corn nuke his ass. He feels like he deserves it at that point.

. For example, take Rhaegar from GRRM A Song of Ice and Fire. He knew his father was dangerous, knew his father was mad, was known for being brave and noble and kind, but never acted against him. Even after his father burned a man to death, had another strangled while laughing, called the heads of people innocents and started one of the greatest civil wars in the history of the kingdom, he didn’t come to the capital and put his father in chains. Instead, he personally commanded the royal army to battle with the rebels.

Ohhhh hai! I feel the strong need to correct you here. You know, ummm...the reason why Rhaegar Targaryen threw that massive tournament in Harrenhal (where he meets Lyanna and the whole Knight of the Laughing Tree thing?) is because he wanted to meet with great lords large and small, to assess loyalties and actually conspire to remove Aerys from the throne. He was always rather anti-Aerys, and the reason he returned and fought at the Trident, wasnt because of loyalty of his father. It was because Robert Baratheon sought to utterly destroy the Targaryen dynasty. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Ohhhh hai! I feel the strong need to correct you here. You know, ummm...the reason why Rhaegar Targaryen threw that massive tournament in Harrenhal (where he meets Lyanna and the whole Knight of the Laughing Tree thing?) is because he wanted to meet with great lords large and small, to assess loyalties and actually conspire to remove Aerys from the throne. He was always rather anti-Aerys, and the reason he returned and fought at the Trident, wasnt because of loyalty of his father. It was because Robert Baratheon sought to utterly destroy the Targaryen dynasty. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also because Robert was trying to steal his new girlfriend.

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Requesting an analysis on Peri. Looks like you might be able to pull off an impartial one, and I'd like to compare notes with someone who's willing to dive really deeply into everything.

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...I'm a woman... *sobs*

lok jk, it's okay

... I need to stop trying to guess people's gender's by the avatar and start actually looking at the gender thingie, haha!

Sorry about that, my mistake! But the sentiment remains! Your words are appreaciated, good lady!

I enjoyed the read. There are minor points I can go over in more detail when I'm not on mobile and about to go to sleep.

My main point is I think Xander is late 20s, maybe around 28. Garon slimified around the time Elise was born, whose about 14. That means he had the majority of his childhood to get to know the real Garon, explaining his loyalty. It's also not that easy to betray one's country. Even the most obviously evil nations in the world only have a small minority of people defect. The Camus archetype persists because it's true to history.

Thank you! And yeah, it's really not that easy to betray your country or king, especially if you had respect/admiration foi them in the past. Taking the Sacred Stones in comparison, for example, we have Duessel, Glen and Selene as the original generals of Grado - all respectable soldiers with a good moral compass. Of the three, only Duessel eventually defects; Glen is killed by Valter when he tries to go back to Grado and question the Emperor, while Selene remains loyal to the end and dies facing Ephraim. And none of these were kin to said Emperor.

Can I just say that I think you have his priority order wrong? If he really wanted what was best for Nohr, he'd have stood aside and let Corrin past. His loyalty to his father clearly overrules his loyalty to Nohr; otherwise, your interpretation requires that he's an idiot.

As I said, he's only brave when it's easy; when there's no conflict between his loyalties; no hard choice to make. When his loyalties are challenged, he always makes the easy choice, without thought for what that choice means for others.

Hm, truth be told, the priorities are something I thought considerably on. It really seems that way sometimes, yes, but I believe that if it was really that way, then he would not defect in Revelations upon hearing about how his father wants to destroy Nohr. That scene, in my impression, made Xander defect since it breaks his delusions about Garon while at the same time putting the one thing he cares the most in danger. In my opinion, if his father was really a priority over the nation, he would keep deluding himself or following his orders nevertheless.

In other words, I get your point and it's a really good point, but in the end, I do still think that he considered the country a great priority over his father, while at the same time he deluded/convinced himself into thinking that his father had the best for the country in mind. Not exactly a smart thing to do, but somewhat humane in my opinion; I can see people doing that.

Requesting an analysis on Peri. Looks like you might be able to pull off an impartial one, and I'd like to compare notes with someone who's willing to dive really deeply into everything.

Sure! Truth be told, she was someone I was planning to analyze later. I'll be going through her supports and all later, try to dig up what I can on her.

Loki, sorry, the system didn't quote your post among the other ones for some reason, my apologies. Yeah, I heard the theory about the Tournament of Harrenhal being made so that he could meet up with lords and all, but it wasn't really confirmed, was it? I'm not following Westeros or GRRM that close right now, so I can't say for sure, but I think it's still a theory (even if a very possible one). Regardless, yeah, there's enought evidence for you to say that Rhaegar was conspiring to take Aerys off the throne, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's also known that he had a lot of hesitation in acting against Aerys; his last talk with Jaime before leaving confirms that, if I'm not mistaken. Besides, while Rhaegar may have been conspiring against Aerys, it wasn't as if Aerys had shown signs of madness for quite some time (the Duskendale incident being a example), and while he may be conspiring, I do not recall a instance of him challenging his father's decisions or anything like that.

Also, in regards to the rebellion, I think Robert was only really made it's leader after the Trident, no? Before that he was quite a prominient figure, yes, but not that different from, say, Eddard Stark or Jon Arryn. And yes, while he was really pissed and probably wanted all Targaryens death, I do not think the same would extend to the other leaders. If instead of marching against them Rhaegar had, for example, taken his father in chains, deposing him and sent a raven to the rebels asking for a parley so that they could negociate peace, even if Robert was against this, Jon and Ned would certainly be in favor. In other words, I believe he could have taken a different course of action in regards to the war and his father, but he chose to first win the war to only then call a council to decide what to do with his father. Not exactly the same circunstances as Xander, sure, but it seems that two were very unwilling to go against their respectives fathers, even while knowing how dangerous they had become.

By the way, did you ever participate in the Westeros forum with a avatar of a cat attacking a finger that tries to click something? I feel like I remember someone at that forum with a similar name to yours, but I may be mistaken.

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Honestly my biggest issue with Xander, even more than his blindness to his father's evil, which at least has some semblance of a justification, is how childishly irresponsible he is regarding Peri. He should have known way better than to even consider making Peri one of his retainers, no matter how much combat potential she had. She's completely unstable, has the maturity level of a deranged eight year old, and attempts to murder her own teammates. And despite all of this, not only is Xander never shown disciplining her at all, but Silas's supports with Peri imply Xander actively makes excuses for her and in fact intimidates the rest of the army out of speaking ill of her. And it's not like he's shown to be a lenient person. His supports with Laslow show he's clearly capable of punishing retainers who embarrass him or cause trouble. And yet he never criticizes or punishes Peri, and keeps her on such a loose leash that she can run into the neighbor's yard, eat their dog and their cat, and loop around their house to pee on the tire swing in the front yard before coming back.

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Thank you! And yeah, it's really not that easy to betray your country or king, especially if you had respect/admiration foi them in the past. Taking the Sacred Stones in comparison, for example, we have Duessel, Glen and Selene as the original generals of Grado - all respectable soldiers with a good moral compass. Of the three, only Duessel eventually defects; Glen is killed by Valter when he tries to go back to Grado and question the Emperor, while Selene remains loyal to the end and dies facing Ephraim. And none of these were kin to said Emperor. 1

Hm, truth be told, the priorities are something I thought considerably on. It really seems that way sometimes, yes, but I believe that if it was really that way, then he would not defect in Revelations upon hearing about how his father wants to destroy Nohr. That scene, in my impression, made Xander defect since it breaks his delusions about Garon while at the same time putting the one thing he cares the most in danger. In my opinion, if his father was really a priority over the nation, he would keep deluding himself or following his orders nevertheless. 2

In other words, I get your point and it's a really good point, but in the end, I do still think that he considered the country a great priority over his father, while at the same time he deluded/convinced himself into thinking that his father had the best for the country in mind. Not exactly a smart thing to do, but somewhat humane in my opinion; I can see people doing that.

I was going to type up a long rebuttal for your original reply, but it was more about whether I think Xander is a likable character (I dislike him greatly) than a pure disagreement of why he does what he does. It would seem you are trying to make an objective analysis of his behavior, so I'll keep my subjective opinions to myself for now. Now for this post:

1. The Grado generals were not family to Vigarde but they were very close. Glen and Selena knew Vigarde since they were children and observed his kindness, so they are quite similar to Xander in this regard. This is where Sacred Stone takes a different turn. Duessel straight up defects because he can't reconcile Grado's actions with his morals. Glen was in the midst of questioning Vigarde and may have defected as well if not for his untimely death. The only general who stays loyal to the end is Selena. Just as the quote I gave earlier suggests, Duessel was a principled character, who despite his fierce loyalty, knew when it was better to side against his liege for the betterment of his own country. Xander does not side with his country's interests, and Garon is a lot more openly evil than Vigarde was (Vigarde is known as the Silent Emperor, whereas Garon is a cackling-mad tyrant.)

2. There are two points in the story where Xander values his country over Garon. The first instance is in Conquest after Garon reveals himself as Gooron and the second was in Revelation when Garon spouts off like a man possessed that he intends to destroy Nohr along with Hoshido. What these two events have in common is Garon no longer being himself. Xander didn't turn on Garon for any of his prior behavior (no matter how much of a threat he was to his country and siblings) until Garon proved to be literally a monster.

The priorities are Garon > Country > Siblings

For how unabashedly evil Garon is (again, he casually orders the execution of his own children), it strains belief that Xander could support him, even if he is his father.

Edited by NekoKnight

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Honestly my biggest issue with Xander, even more than his blindness to his father's evil, which at least has some semblance of a justification, is how childishly irresponsible he is regarding Peri. He should have known way better than to even consider making Peri one of his retainers, no matter how much combat potential she had. She's completely unstable, has the maturity level of a deranged eight year old, and attempts to murder her own teammates. And despite all of this, not only is Xander never shown disciplining her at all, but Silas's supports with Peri imply Xander actively makes excuses for her and in fact intimidates the rest of the army out of speaking ill of her. And it's not like he's shown to be a lenient person. His supports with Laslow show he's clearly capable of punishing retainers who embarrass him or cause trouble. And yet he never criticizes or punishes Peri, and keeps her on such a loose leash that she can run into the neighbor's yard, eat their dog and their cat, and loop around their house to pee on the tire swing in the front yard before coming back.

This is why I asked for an analysis of Peri. She's much more complicated than that. Xander explains his logic in his support with Peri, no less.

I feel like I'm talking about Tharja all over again.

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This is why I asked for an analysis of Peri. She's much more complicated than that. Xander explains his logic in his support with Peri, no less.

I feel like I'm talking about Tharja all over again.

I read that support. He says he picked her because he saw potential in her as a fighter and then later admits that it was also because he was in love with her.

That was his justification for hiring a deranged serial killer as a retainer.

Peri threatens to kill Felicia repeatedly and Xander either was told of this and did nothing or Felicia didn't think that would help at all and didn't ask for help, which only makes sense if it's clear Xander doesn't realize how dangerous she is. And Silas's support with her heavily implies that something like this is indeed the case and he actively discourages criticizing her. And then Peri actually does try to murder Felicia in their A support and only fails because Felicia manages to fight her off. Laslow quite literally has to teach her about empathy. I know she's more complex than that, but she's still way too dangerous for Xander's treatment of her to be safe or responsible.

Edited by Alastor15243

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I read that support. He says he picked her because he saw potential in her as a fighter and then later admits that it was also because he was in love with her.

That was his justification for hiring a deranged serial killer as a retainer.

Peri threatens to kill Felicia repeatedly and Xander either was told of this and did nothing or Felicia didn't think that would help at all and didn't ask for help, which only makes sense if it's clear Xander doesn't realize how dangerous she is. And Silas's support with her heavily implies that something like this is indeed the case and he actively discourages criticizing her. And then Peri actually does try to murder Felicia in their A support and only fails because Felicia manages to fight her off. Laslow quite literally has to teach her about empathy. I know she's more complex than that, but she's still way too dangerous for Xander's treatment of her to be safe or responsible.

S-supports aside (they're another can of worms), you've stated why Xander chose Peri. However, the rest is you passing judgment, with absolutely no indication that you're willing to listen to another side, let alone change your mind. Thus, continuing this is pointless.

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S-supports aside (they're another can of worms), you've stated why Xander chose Peri. However, the rest is you passing judgment, with absolutely no indication that you're willing to listen to another side, let alone change your mind. Thus, continuing this is pointless.

No, I'm perfectly happy to hear your arguments. I'm honestly curious. That was me presenting my case. I'd love to hear yours.

And remember, I'm not arguing that Peri is a terrible character here, I'm arguing that it was extremely irresponsible of Xander to appoint somebody as dangerous as her without any added caution. If you can demonstrate that Xander does keep her on a suitably tight leash, or that she's actually not so unstable as to need one, I will concede.

Edited by Alastor15243

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Thank you! Hahaha, I'm afraid a good part of that is paying attention to auto-correct and using google translate whenever I have a doubt about something. I went through that post several times before posting, so I hope there weren't a lot of mistakes.

Sure! I never thought about that in depth, but I can see why it can be interesting. Gonna start doing some research on that, see what I can come up with.

Thank you.

In truth, I have been digging deep myself, and I believe I may have figured it out. Why I'm asking is to see if someone else can come to the same conclusions, or find something I have missed, or prove me otherwise. I'll post my thoughts once I've reorganized and you've given me the okay to post my analysis, in spite of the topic being "Kipor analyzes stuff".

Edited by TheTuckingFypo

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I mostly agree with the OP's thoughts on Xander. I like Xander, yes he is very flawed, but I find it very easy to understand where he is coming from and why he decides to do certain things. Except Conquest Mokushu and Izumo... To me that was out of character for most people involved.

I just think Peri was poorly handled by the writers. Every character is out of character when supporting with her, in general.

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Requesting an analysis on Peri. Looks like you might be able to pull off an impartial one, and I'd like to compare notes with someone who's willing to dive really deeply into everything.

Seconding this. I've done my own analysis and come to find very little redeeming about her (save for a few supports), but a fresh pair of eyes might be what I need to understand the character a bit better.

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I agree with your analyses Xander is a flawed character and that makes him likeable to me however the only thing that really stands in the way is the fact that he goes easy on the avatar when logically he should keep fighting till his last breaths for his kingdom and Garon. The problem is Cornbreads Mary Sue-ness they want to make the player feel special by making it seem as if Xander cannot bring themselves to kill precious cornbread so they let them win despite the fact that it completely undermines his character and that is why Mary Sues are horrible and why cornbread is unbearable.

Edited by Mackc2

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