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3 hours ago, XRay said:

It is not about scoring the highest for the max rewards. It is about scoring high enough so players will have a decent income so they can pursue other priorities. I agree that most players do not care about having max rewards, but they still care about having good rewards. Dumping all your resources to get max rewards is not the goal for most players. For most players, it is about investing just enough to get to decent rewards so they have a decent income to pursue whatever projects they want. The goal of most players is to land somewhere between Tier 19 and Tier 21 Arena and maintain Tier 21 Aether Raids.

The disparity is freaking huge. It is a difference of around 5,000 Orbs and 3 million Feathers if comparing a day 1 player like me to someone who just started in February this year. That is like around two 5*+10 exclusive units with full premium skill sets and thirteen promoted +10 units.

That is true, but the point still stands that they have to spend those resources in ways that veterans did not have to. I did not have to spend any extra Sacred Coins for the vast majority of Sacred Seals. I did not have to spend extra Grails to get my first copy of Grail units because the game already gave me the first few copies during their debut.

If these maps were permanent or on some kind of rotating schedule, I would be much less opposed to them having such strict requirements. But the fact is that these are not permanent and we are not sure if they will be on a rotating schedule. We already have Quests, Events, Coliseum-Aether Raids, and a portion of Special Maps that continuously widen the gap between veteran players and players who just started. We do not need to speed up the widening of that gap anymore than it already is.

I am all for encouraging new players, but what you are kinda demanding is handing over the silverplatter with everything, while saying FU to the longtime loyalist players that supported the game since day 1 and are playing it every day/week.

Gen 4 units curbstomb on Gen 1. an unmerged Gen 4 unit is just by BST powercreep a +10 Gen 1 unit. and then they have like 1-2 extra effects on their personal weapon compared to Gen 1 unit and hefty passives. A new player has to invest far less into a Gen 4 unit then a loyalist invested since day 1 on Gen 1 unit to get the same or better firepower.

What I agree upon though is, that all seals should become available to everyone after 3 Months of the Tempest Trial they were introduced. The upgrade cost is allready enough, no need for a forging cost.

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4 hours ago, Hilda said:

Gen 4 units curbstomb on Gen 1. an unmerged Gen 4 unit is just by BST powercreep a +10 Gen 1 unit. and then they have like 1-2 extra effects on their personal weapon compared to Gen 1 unit and hefty passives. A new player has to invest far less into a Gen 4 unit then a loyalist invested since day 1 on Gen 1 unit to get the same or better firepower.

The vast majority of gen IV units are 5* exclusive, so it is not like new players can just dump everything into gen IV units and call it a day unless they are a whale.. Gen I units also are not pushovers and are far from being curb stomped. Some of the strongest and best units are gen I units, and many of them fulfill important niches. And with Resplendent stats eventually becoming a thing for most of them, many will rival gen IV units. Players should still invest in gen I units, especially the top tier ones.

22 hours ago, XRay said:

A lot of gen I units are still worth using, and a lot of them are still top tier. Celica is still outright bonkers. BB!Cordelia is the third best colorless archer in the game, with only Eleonora and SK!Alm outclassing her in total Atk/Spd. All the first year CYL units besides BH!Lyn have important unique niches to fill, and BH!Lyn is still pretty good. And that is just the 5* exclusive units.

Tharja, Tailtiu, Nino, and Klein are really strong nukes. All the Dancers/Singers are still really good. All the staff cavalry can still oppress opponents with Pain and Panic. Eliwood is almost on par with BH!Roy now. M!Corrin is a top tier support unit. Reinhardt is still a really powerful crutch. Cordelia is one of the best Galeforcers, and top of her class. Cherche is also the top of her class. Raven is superior to the latest infantry axe units for Player Phase builds as he can match them in Atk/Spd, and his low BST is a blessing since he does not have the stupid high bulk that later units have so he can more effectively use Wings of Mercy. The White Wings are a little more niche, but they are top notch for Røkkr Sieges.

Even less meta gen I units can still hold their own in combat or have really niche support roles. Practically any gen I mage with decent Atk can go toe to toe with the latest mages by virtue of Blade tomes existing. The dragon lolis are still pretty good for PvE content. Lyn is on par with gen III sword infantry. Lukas is a solid Def tank. Azama and Wrys occupy a convenience niche of training other units due to their pathetic Atk. Anyone that does not have pathetic Atk is pretty much usable in combat, and for ones that do, they often Refinements that help address that issue.

And here are other units who are top tier or have important niches that I have not mentioned:
- Caeda, Clair, Ogma, and Navarre are also really good for the same reason as Eliwood and BH!Roy, as they allow the player to field much more Galeforcers than normal.
- Abel and Cain are like the White Wings and are really good for Røkkr sieges. Luke is also good, although an expensive option.
- Ephraim got Bold Fighter, although a weakened version of it. Alternatively, he can be a dual phase unit with Flame Siegmund. Only a handful of non-armor units have access to guaranteed follow-ups on Player Phase or dual phase (Tibarn; LL!Ephraim, DM!Ephraim, Hríd, Dimitri, Edelgard, Líf, Yune, Bramimond).

Edited by XRay
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20 minutes ago, XRay said:

The vast majority of gen IV units are 5* exclusive, so it is not like new players can just dump everything into gen IV units and call it a day unless they are a whale..

Currently, each new banner only has 3 of its 5 units 5* exclusive. 60% is a majority, but I wouldn't call it a vast majority.

Edited by Othin
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Well I dunno about you guys, but I did the Limited battles for A/C and Lyon super cleanly.

Yes I did use high to max merge units, but not one Dancer was used each time. This was also the first time in a while that I used Owain or Innes, which in its own way was nice.

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45 minutes ago, Othin said:

Currently, each new banner only has 3 of its 5 units 5* exclusive. 60% is a majority, but I wouldn't call it a vast majority.

If we are counting Special Heroes and Legendaries and Mythics too, I think it is a vast majority.

Edited by XRay
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26 minutes ago, XRay said:

If we are counting Special Heroes and Legendaries and Mythics too, I think it is a vast majority.

I am counting Special Heroes. Like New Heroes, there's 5 associated units, with one (temporary) demote and one free unit.

Legendaries and mythics bump up the 5* exclusives to 7 of the 11 new units in a typical month. So, a bit rougher than just looking at the regular banners, but still under two thirds.

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14 hours ago, XRay said:

The gap between an individual new player and a veteran player will stop growing, but the gap is still there and is pretty massive. And the gap between newer players as a whole and veterans will still keep on growing the later a new player joins.

The gap between newer players and veterans is entirely irrelevant for PvE game modes, which is what I believe started this discussion.

There is no need for new players to close the gap between themselves and veterans. They simply need to close the gap between themselves and the hardest PvE challenge content. And while that gap has grown significantly since the game's release, the ability to close that gap has also grown significantly.

A new player doesn't need a barracks of hundreds of top-of-the-line units when you can only field at most two dozen units on a single team.

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8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The gap between newer players and veterans is entirely irrelevant for PvE game modes, which is what I believe started this discussion.

There is no need for new players to close the gap between themselves and veterans. They simply need to close the gap between themselves and the hardest PvE challenge content. And while that gap has grown significantly since the game's release, the ability to close that gap has also grown significantly.

A new player doesn't need a barracks of hundreds of top-of-the-line units when you can only field at most two dozen units on a single team.

They do not need tons of top tier units, but they do need tons of options. Barracks diversity is key, and getting diversity is not always easy.

They can often follow Pheonixmaster1's guide, but if it is back to back content with little to no breather in between like the current LMBs, they might not be able to procure enough resources in the meantime to follow guides. Free guides generally use no or minimal skill inheritance, but they sometimes require unit promotion and upgraded Sacred Seals. If the LMBs are permanent, or if we know for sure that it is on a rerun schedule, then it is not a huge issue as players can take their time, but LMBs are not permamnent and we are not sure if it is on some kind of schedule. If it is one-off like weekly Rival Domains or the occasional limited time Special maps, that means it unnecessarily widens the gap further.

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28 minutes ago, XRay said:

They do not need tons of top tier units, but they do need tons of options. Barracks diversity is key, and getting diversity is not always easy.

They can often follow Pheonixmaster1's guide, but if it is back to back content with little to no breather in between like the current LMBs, they might not be able to procure enough resources in the meantime to follow guides. Free guides generally use no or minimal skill inheritance, but they sometimes require unit promotion and upgraded Sacred Seals. If the LMBs are permanent, or if we know for sure that it is on a rerun schedule, then it is not a huge issue as players can take their time, but LMBs are not permamnent and we are not sure if it is on some kind of schedule. If it is one-off like weekly Rival Domains or the occasional limited time Special maps, that means it unnecessarily widens the gap further.

So lets punish longtime invested players of the game, by not releasing a fun game-mode, because new players who havent carried the game over time are not on equal standing foot?
F*** the playerbase that actually carried your game for the last 2-3 years!

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13 minutes ago, Hilda said:

So lets punish longtime invested players of the game, by not releasing a fun game-mode, because new players who havent carried the game over time are not on equal standing foot?
F*** the playerbase that actually carried your game for the last 2-3 years!

Reducing the resource gap does not equate to punishing veteran players. I do not see how being generous to new players equates to punishing veterans. Every generosity that is shown to new players would also be reaped by veteran players.

It makes no sense to fight or be jealous over resources given to new players, and veterans have not done very well with carrying the game either as Heroes' revenue has dropped to about half of it what it was during the first year. We need to recruit more players to keep the game going.

And as I have stated multiple times, I would be much less opposed to the mode if they simply made the mode permanent or at least les ut know that it is on a rotating schedule.

On 4/13/2020 at 4:42 PM, XRay said:

2. I would be less opposed to LHBs if they are permanent.

2a. This allows new players to take their time to complete them.

2b. This reduces the massive resource gap between new players and veteran players.

19 hours ago, XRay said:

If these maps were permanent or on some kind of rotating schedule, I would be much less opposed to them having such strict requirements. But the fact is that these are not permanent and we are not sure if they will be on a rotating schedule. We already have Quests, Events, Coliseum-Aether Raids, and a portion of Special Maps that continuously widen the gap between veteran players and players who just started. We do not need to speed up the widening of that gap anymore than it already is.

49 minutes ago, XRay said:

If the LMBs are permanent, or if we know for sure that it is on a rerun schedule, then it is not a huge issue as players can take their time, but LMBs are not permamnent and we are not sure if it is on some kind of schedule. If it is one-off like weekly Rival Domains or the occasional limited time Special maps, that means it unnecessarily widens the gap further.

 

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2 hours ago, Othin said:

If we're getting silhouettes, they should be tonight, since the trailer should be before the TT banner starts on Saturday.

I wonder if we will even get silhouettes since we already know two of the characters that are going to appear. I kind of hope they show us the trailer tonight instead if they are not planning to show it tomorrow.

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30 minutes ago, NSSKG151 said:

I wonder if we will even get silhouettes since we already know two of the characters that are going to appear. I kind of hope they show us the trailer tonight instead if they are not planning to show it tomorrow.

Yeah, I'm not sure we'll actually get silhouettes this time either since we do already know that Marth and Caeda are there, not to mention that the rest of this banner's characters will also be from Shadow Dragon. So the silhouettes could be really obvious and that's no fun. We did have a couple cases of very obvious ones before, but still.

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4 hours ago, Hilda said:

So lets punish longtime invested players of the game, by not releasing a fun game-mode, because new players who havent carried the game over time are not on equal standing foot?
F*** the playerbase that actually carried your game for the last 2-3 years!

Yeah and while we’re at it, let’s also cancel all future Grand, Bound, Legendary and Mythic Hero battles just in case the newbies can’t handle those in time either. 

Anything to keep the playing field “even”, after all.

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1 hour ago, Tybrosion said:

Yeah and while we’re at it, let’s also cancel all future Grand, Bound, Legendary and Mythic Hero battles just in case the newbies can’t handle those in time either. 

Anything to keep the playing field “even”, after all.

Those get rerun, this does not. I would prefer if they keep these limited hero battles as permanent content like blessed gardens. 

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50 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

Yeah and while we’re at it, let’s also cancel all future Grand, Bound, Legendary and Mythic Hero battles just in case the newbies can’t handle those in time either. 

Anything to keep the playing field “even”, after all.

To be fair, most of those come back regularly. 

However, Arena/AR rewards don't. Technically speaking, adding Divine Codes to those weekly rewards resulted in another thing longer time players will have more of over time. But in practice, they have diminishing benefits the more fodder you have. So they do more to help newer players catch up than to help long-time players get further ahead, even if the newer players get fewer of them. 

LMB rewards are Divine Codes and feathers, and feathers have the same diminishing returns. Most resources do. 

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2 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Those get rerun, this does not. I would prefer if they keep these limited hero battles as permanent content like blessed gardens. 

Do we have a confirmation that these are a one-time deal and won't ever be rerun again?

Even in that case, we also have zero guarantee that Grand Hero Battles will have unlimited access in the future. All Grand Hero Battles after the first 14 have so far been run only a maximum of 3 times: once for the original release, once for the rerun, and once for the currently running anniversary event. We have no guarantee that we'll get a third daily rotating set.

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The competitive scene relies on pointless items like crowns and thrones being highly valued. If veterans think new players can reach that rank too easily, of course they will get jealous.

Quote

 veterans have not done very well with carrying the game either as Heroes' revenue has dropped to about half of it what it was during the first year. We need to recruit more players to keep the game going.

It depends on whether those new players spend. I don’t think there are many potential whales that are not already playing Heroes, and there’s no guarantee they will be as loyal as the veterans who have been playing for three years.

 If you alienate the veteran whales trying to attract a smaller market, revenue will go down even further.

Edited by Baldrick
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1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

The competitive scene relies on pointless items like crowns and thrones being highly valued. If veterans think new players can reach that rank too easily, of course they will get jealous.

It is not about reaching the highest rank or max rewards. It is about not alienating new players and helping them reach a reasonable level of income so they have enough resources to pursue whatever project they want. Anything that can be done to help new players also helps veterans.

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

It depends on whether those new players spend. I don’t think there are many potential whales that are not already playing Heroes, and there’s no guarantee they will be as loyal as the veterans who have been playing for three years.

If you alienate the veteran whales trying to attract a smaller market, revenue will go down even further.

Most new players probably will not be whales, but any spender gained is might be worth it in my opinion. Every spender helps. It is a team effort.

There is no alienation going on, and this mindset of veteran vs newbie is just ridiculous. I cannot think of single scenario that is done to help new players that would be detrimental to veteran players. Even with Altina being given away for free, I was worried that it would have significant impact on my ranking, but I actually have not noticed much difference. If the game does anything to benefit free players, all players benefit.

Edited by XRay
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2 hours ago, XRay said:

There is no alienation going on, and this mindset of veteran vs newbie is just ridiculous. I cannot think of single scenario that is done to help new players that would be detrimental to veteran players. Even with Altina being given away for free, I was worried that it would have significant impact on my ranking, but I actually have not noticed much difference. If the game does anything to benefit free players, all players benefit.

The Heroes Path is probably the best example of this (I still hate it by the way). For completing everything, whether growing as a player or already being a player from launch, you get:

  • 5* Reinhardt (one of the stronger heroes in the game post-SI, still remains a potent unit overall)
  • Ninian (5* exclusive Dancer)
  • Two Xanders, one 4* the other 5* (GHB unit with DC weapon and alright usability in the modern setting, awesome usability for clearing lower-level content)
  • 3* Barst (technically looks like he was given for a separate mission, but hey free Reposition fodder)
  • Anamnesis Lady Eirika (definitely not the strongest Red Tome, but she's still viable if you invest in her)
  • Brave Ike (literally the definition of defensive powerhouse in the current metagame, units had to be made to counteract him)
  • Various resources to give a newbie an extra bottom boost, and a veteran... well, not like they'll say no.
  • A number of orbs

Now a veteran is VERY likely to have Reinhardt and Xander already, maybe Brave Ike to, but even still that's 5 valuable free 5* units given to a new player for completing mundane tasks, and 5 free 5* units that a veteran will appreciate the extra merge levels for (I know I liked it for Eirika and Ike). And nobody would say no to free stuff, ESPECIALLY not free Orbs. 32 orb if I counted right.

...also some Reposition fodder. That's cool to.

Edited by Xenomata
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11 hours ago, XRay said:
 

It is not about reaching the highest rank or max rewards.
 

Then as I said before, no units are necessary and the free units are good and diverse enough to handle PvE and reach a decent rank in PvP.

Quote

It is about not alienating new players and helping them reach a reasonable level of income so they have enough resources to pursue whatever project they want.

They have thousands of orbs to harvest, what more could you want? How does veterans getting slightly more drip-fed resources prevent new players from pursuing whatever projects they want?

Quote

. Even with Altina being given away for free, I was worried that it would have significant impact on my ranking, but I actually have not noticed much difference.

But if it had an impact, it would be detrimental to you, no?

Edited by Baldrick
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5 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Then as I said before, no units are necessary and the free units are good and diverse enough to handle PvE and reach a decent rank in PvP.

A lot of free units require Grails that new players have to fork over. Super new players also would not have access to BH!Ike and a few others later in the Heroes' Path as it still takes a little time to reach certain Tiers in Aether Raids.

5 hours ago, Baldrick said:

They have thousands of orbs to harvest, what more could you want? How does veterans getting slightly more drip-fed resources prevent new players from pursuing whatever projects they want?

A lot of those Orbs are not immediately accessible as players need to build up their teams and/or confer Blessings to complete some of them. A player is not realistically going to knock them all out in a period of a few days.

Veterans have a huge advantage in resource. We have 5,000 more free Orbs and 3 million more Hero Feathers than a new player who just started this February; that is a huge amount of resources, that is two 5* exclusive with full premium skill kits and 13 promoted merge+10 units. And that also does not factor in 2 years worth of Summoning Stones, Divine Dew, and Sacred Coins, and a year's worth of Grails. And there is also a new player "tax" on Sacred Coins and Grails since they have to spend extra resources on to create Sacred Seals and spend Grails to get their first copy of many Grail units.

5 hours ago, Baldrick said:

But if it had an impact, it would be detrimental to you, no?

It would be detrimental if it has a negative impact, but I do not think there was much negative impact if at all, since I managed to get my Gold Throne after she was released for free.

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

Veterans have a huge advantage in resource.

You have an obsession with how much of a gap there is between the barracks of a new player and a veteran player when that is entirely irrelevant.

As a veteran player and a former whale, I know full well that it absolutely doesn't matter that I have 137 level 40+10 5-star units and 461 total level 40 5-star units when I only ever use the same 30 or 40 of them on a regular basis. Having a huge amount of barracks variety is utterly pointless after you reach a certain point where you have enough of your bases covered.

Veteran players have already reached the soft power ceiling where they have enough units to run every type of endgame PvE content and do reasonably well in endgame PvP content. What matters is how long it takes for a new player to reach the soft power ceiling. The barracks gap is absolutely meaningless.

 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Super new players also would not have access to BH!Ike and a few others later in the Heroes' Path as it still takes a little time to reach certain Tiers in Aether Raids.

Super new players do not need Brave Ike to do well at their stage in the game because offensive playstyles are cheaper to build and equally viable prior to reaching the top of the PvP ladders, and by the time they reach the top of the PvP ladders they'll have gotten Brave Ike already.

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5 hours ago, XRay said:

A lot of free units require Grails that new players have to fork over. Super new players also would not have access to BH!Ike and a few others later in the Heroes' Path as it still takes a little time to reach certain Tiers in Aether Raids.

The important grail units like Aversa do their job at +0, so they will obtain enough grails very quickly. If a new player hasn't progressed far enough into the Heroes' Path to get Ike, they're not yet ranked high enough to need him.

5 hours ago, XRay said:

A lot of those Orbs are not immediately accessible as players need to build up their teams and/or confer Blessings to complete some of them. A player is not realistically going to knock them all out in a period of a few days.

In the process of collecting those orbs, they will build up their team. The Blessed Gardens are endgame PvP, regardless you get 4 water blessings to start you off, and completing the early levels gives you enough blessings to start tackling the higher levels.

5 hours ago, XRay said:

Veterans have a huge advantage in resource. 

I don't see the logic. How does veterans having a huge advantage in resources prevent newbies from pursuing whatever projects they want?

5 hours ago, XRay said:

It would be detrimental if it has a negative impact,

Exactly.

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3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You have an obsession with how much of a gap there is between the barracks of a new player and a veteran player when that is entirely irrelevant.

As a veteran player and a former whale, I know full well that it absolutely doesn't matter that I have 137 level 40+10 5-star units and 461 total level 40 5-star units when I only ever use the same 30 or 40 of them on a regular basis. Having a huge amount of barracks variety is utterly pointless after you reach a certain point where you have enough of your bases covered.

Veteran players have already reached the soft power ceiling where they have enough units to run every type of endgame PvE content and do reasonably well in endgame PvP content. What matters is how long it takes for a new player to reach the soft power ceiling. The barracks gap is absolutely meaningless.

The resource gap absolutely matters.

A new player still has to spend extra Sacred Coins to create Sacred Seals and extra Grails to summon Grail units to follow free guides. It is not like they can quickly get 500 Orbs on demand and summon whatever 3*/4* unit a guide happens to use.

For PvP, having a huge amount of 4*+10 units from before the Combat Manual era helps a ton for selecting bonus units or to Bless them for Arena Assault scoring. Veteran players also are less likely to run out of high demand fodder like Reposition, Desperation, Fury, and Life and Death. Having all the extra conveniences 5,000 Orbs and 3 million Feathers provide absolutely makes a difference. For Arena Assault alone, I use at least 52 units on a semi regular basis (4 permanent Team 1 units; 4 groups of Blessed units with at least 12 units each), and at least half of them got Reposition; you can make do with Swap and Draw Back, but having a huge amount of Reposition definitely saves me a lot of hassle from restarting.

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Super new players do not need Brave Ike to do well at their stage in the game because offensive playstyles are cheaper to build and equally viable prior to reaching the top of the PvP ladders, and by the time they reach the top of the PvP ladders they'll have gotten Brave Ike already.

Getting that BH!Ike is not about doing well in PvP modes. BH!Ike is crucial for following free guides for some of the more difficult content.

1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

The important grail units like Aversa do their job at +0, so they will obtain enough grails very quickly. If a new player hasn't progressed far enough into the Heroes' Path to get Ike, they're not yet ranked high enough to need him.

They do their jobs at +0, but if a player has been using their Grails to follow guides for doing other content and then crap like LHBs show up, they might not be able to scrounge up enough Grails, Sacred Coins, Feathers, and Orbs quickly enough to follow LHB guides.

6 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

In the process of collecting those orbs, they will build up their team. The Blessed Gardens are endgame PvP, regardless you get 4 water blessings to start you off, and completing the early levels gives you enough blessings to start tackling the higher levels.

That Orb collection process takes time, and they do not have access to those thousands of Orbs immediately. Squad Assaults and Chain Challenges also demand quite a few built teams. The fact still remains that they cannot rely on permanent resources as much as people think because they cannot access those resources in a timely manner to complete time sensitive modes like LHBs.

21 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

I don't see the logic. How does veterans having a huge advantage in resources prevent newbies from pursuing whatever projects they want?

The resource advantage does not stop new players from pursuing their projects, but it does make their projects more expensive and difficult.

The most extreme example is that a day 1 veteran only needs to spend 250 Grails to get Marth!Lucina to +10, while a new player who started this February three years later has to spend 3,700 Grails. Even for a Tempest Trial unit with no rerun, a veteran player has a huge 28% discount at 2,700 Grails to merge +10 the unit, saving 1,000 Grails. For a new player, they have to juggle between splitting Grails to follow guides and their project, an issue that is far cheaper for veterans to deal with.

For projects involving 3*/4* units, the resource gap is not as negatively pronounced, but a new player is far more likely to run out high demand fodder that can impede their progress. Even veteran players today have issues with running out of high demand fodder, although it is less likely to happen. Only paying players do not really have to worry about running out of Reposition, Fury, etc. anytime soon.

52 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Exactly.

It does not have a noticeable negative impact. If anything, the release of Altina also significantly benefits veteran players, and any negative impact coming from difficulty in ranking is made up by the fact she also makes ranking easier for veterans too, as she is not a dud like Naga is. And since I got my Gold Throne when I got Altina on my team, I would say it helps me more than it has hurt me since I was able to utilize Altina's stat buff because I use Kronya, a unit that is generally more suitable for veterans to invest in.

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