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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

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9 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

…I'm more like welp, she's psycho and they clearly chose Story Xander instead of Support Xander to be represented in Heroes. Really it's the devs' fault.

I think the problem for the writing team is that they don't see a difference between Story and Support Xander. The Camus archetype has been a long standing tradition for Fire Emblem but the underlying principle that the well written ones have (I'd list Selena and Lloyd among them) is that they are sympathetic antagonists. With Xander they seem to have gone the route that any amount of villainy (it's hard to be hyperbolic with how evil Garon and Veronica are) is negated by 'noble' qualities like bravery and loyalty. 

3 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

Xander shouldn't have been a GHB unit, and same with Camus. 

Or else they might have been twice as better than the way they are now thanks to natures.

That could be said about any GHB unit. The way I see it, a unit without a nature isn't really different than one with a nature besides a lack of variety in build options. if Xander's stat spread was 44/29/27/37/17 and given a +Atk/-Spd nature, it would be right where it is now at  44/32/24/37/17. It's the choice of the developers to give them a viable stat line. The only GHB unit who got particularly screwed by this was F!Robin, and that's only in comparison to M!Robin because they have identical stats at neutral.

Xander and Camus are still pretty good, anyway. They are horses and have DC weapons, which make them unique in the game. I think their decline in popularity has more to do with a lack of availability and the aggressive player phase orko meta.

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41 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

Xander shouldn't have been a GHB unit, and same with Camus.

I agree with Xander if only for consistency's sake.  Why have the other royals obtainable normally and make Xander special?  I get that he's supposed to reprise his role as a Camus archetype in Heroes's story mode, but why bother making him playable at all if this is the case?

Camus, however, seems kind of special as an archetype original, so I don't really mind him being a GHB exclusive.

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Some of my opinions that are unpopular:

  • Tharja is overrated as a unit. I find it hard to see her as living up to the hype with her bad skill and luck resulting in trouble hitting with non-wind magics. The latter also results in her facing crit chances often, which is unacceptable in a game series as punishing as this.
  • The Jugdral Fire Emblem games are among the worst FE games.
  • Revelation isn't nearly as bad as everyone and their grandma tries to paint it as.
  • Berserkers are the worst class in Fates. Having first-class offense is one thing, but it shouldn't come at the cost of being vulnerable to critical hits.
  • Faye isn't that bad a character.
  • Ryoma is overrated af. He might be one of the best units in Birthright, but what he ISN'T is an immortal god of war.
  • Fates' story wasn't that bad.
  • Shouzou Kaga is not a good director.
Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Some of my unpopular opinions...

  • Revelations wasn't that bad in all honesty, I thought some of the maps were pretty creative and cool, which forced you to be a little more strategic and careful with your units. The story was pretty bland but, I didn't think it was that bad as most people paint it as.
  • The Wind Tribe map in Conquest and Revelations is one of my favorite maps to play in Fates
  • Lyn wasn't even that bad to use outside of Lyn mode, she's still pretty decent for the most part
  • Lilina > Lugh (though both aren't worth using tbh)
  • Jill is overrated AF in Radiant Dawn (and so is Marcia for the most part)
  • As much as I love Anna, seeing her all the time in every game is annoying 
  • GBA games have better art than the 3DS games

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3 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

That could be said about any GHB unit. The way I see it, a unit without a nature isn't really different than one with a nature besides a lack of variety in build options. if Xander's stat spread was 44/29/27/37/17 and given a +Atk/-Spd nature, it would be right where it is now at  44/32/24/37/17. It's the choice of the developers to give them a viable stat line. The only GHB unit who got particularly screwed by this was F!Robin, and that's only in comparison to M!Robin because they have identical stats at neutral.

Xander and Camus are still pretty good, anyway. They are horses and have DC weapons, which make them unique in the game. I think their decline in popularity has more to do with a lack of availability and the aggressive player phase orko meta.

I think they would still build him faithfully so he wouldn't have garbage base stats, that is after all how they wanted to build him when making him a GHB so to make him with IVs he would probably still be around where he is now in terms of neutral stats. Same probably with Camus. I think if they also gave DC Weapons a upgrade it could help restore DC units back up to their top tier status, which they have lost because newer units have better skills in their weapon and specials that make them very powerful with DC in their A slot, and there's also just the straight up BST increase. Ayra is just straight up a better than Ryoma for example.

32 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I agree with Xander if only for consistency's sake.  Why have the other royals obtainable normally and make Xander special?  I get that he's supposed to reprise his role as a Camus archetype in Heroes's story mode, but why bother making him playable at all if this is the case?

Camus, however, seems kind of special as an archetype original, so I don't really mind him being a GHB exclusive.

Yep this is my other reason that is also just plain obvious. They treated Xander like a GHB even though he's a fulltime ally just like Ryoma across a total of two games. Camus is also still an ally. They should've given Zephiel DC or something instead of making these two the free DC units.

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16 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

I think if they also gave DC Weapons a upgrade it could help restore DC units back up to their top tier status, which they have lost because newer units have better skills in their weapon and specials that make them very powerful with DC in their A slot, and there's also just the straight up BST increase. Ayra is just straight up a better than Ryoma for example.

Do they really need a boost? DC weapons are great and are used by everyone who has access to one. Do you see many Black Knights without Alondite? How about manaketes without Lightning Breath (besides Myrrh)? It takes rare SI to get DC on other units, I think you're doing pretty well to have it built into your weapon.

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1 hour ago, Ae†her said:

Yep this is my other reason that is also just plain obvious. They treated Xander like a GHB even though he's a fulltime ally just like Ryoma across a total of two games. Camus is also still an ally. They should've given Zephiel DC or something instead of making these two the free DC units.

Xander's placement in a GHB may have been Fates's generally weak villain lineup. Fates is course one of the games Heroes started high on, so it had to have an early GHB. Now who does Fates have that is a full villain who could fulfill this role?

Hans, Iago, Garon, Zola, Kotaro, Sumeragi, Arete, Anankos. 

None of these are very good by the standards of many. Xander on the other hand has some lore strength and character charm to him. He's the closest thing to a Black Knight Fates has.

However, in the two games you fight him, his Rev appearance is ignorable, his BR2 where you actually defeat him has stats Merlinus's donkey could excrete even on Lunatic. Leaving his BR1 Opera House fight, where you really don't have to fight him, but it isn't difficult to, the one fight against him which is anything of challenge. He is such a weak enemy to me that to treat him like a villain is something of a joke. Ryoma's 2 CQ battles make him out to be a much stronger foe (but not unbeatable of course). But this is just talking gameplay.

 

As for Camus, Camus is never an ally as Camus, save in one battle of Archanea Chronicles. He is an ally as Zeke and as Sirius, and these will eventually appear in some other capacity in Heroes, maybe TT Zeke and pull Sirius. Both Zeke and Sirius come after Camus has "died" and is hence freed from his Camusian obligations of loyalty to an disagreeable cause unto death.

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47 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Xander's placement in a GHB may have been Fates's generally weak villain lineup. Fates is course one of the games Heroes started high on, so it had to have an early GHB. Now who does Fates have that is a full villain who could fulfill this role?

Hans, Iago, Garon, Zola, Kotaro, Sumeragi, Arete, Anankos. 

None of these are very good by the standards of many. Xander on the other hand has some lore strength and character charm to him. He's the closest thing to a Black Knight Fates has.

However, in the two games you fight him, his Rev appearance is ignorable, his BR2 where you actually defeat him has stats Merlinus's donkey could excrete even on Lunatic. Leaving his BR1 Opera House fight, where you really don't have to fight him, but it isn't difficult to, the one fight against him which is anything of challenge. He is such a weak enemy to me that to treat him like a villain is something of a joke. Ryoma's 2 CQ battles make him out to be a much stronger foe (but not unbeatable of course). But this is just talking gameplay.

GHB from Fates aren't limited to that lineup. Flora, Shura, Fuga, and Yukimura are possible candidates, if we take into consideration characters that Corrin fights against in multiple routes. My guess that IS didn't wanted to give a powerful unit like Xander at the start of game.

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50 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Do they really need a boost? DC weapons are great and are used by everyone who has access to one. Do you see many Black Knights without Alondite? How about manaketes without Lightning Breath (besides Myrrh)? It takes rare SI to get DC on other units, I think you're doing pretty well to have it built into your weapon.

They lack BST so the least they could get is stat boosts. Ryoma ranked at number 10 and Xander like 20ish in the CYL poles, they could use the help to stand out like they once did. People whaled for these units when they were the best at one point, so it's also just a big hit in the face to them. 

15 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Xander's placement in a GHB may have been Fates's generally weak villain lineup. Fates is course one of the games Heroes started high on, so it had to have an early GHB. Now who does Fates have that is a full villain who could fulfill this role?

Hans, Iago, Garon, Zola, Kotaro, Sumeragi, Arete, Anankos. 

None of these are very good by the standards of many. Xander on the other hand has some lore strength and character charm to him. He's the closest thing to a Black Knight Fates has.

However, in the two games you fight him, his Rev appearance is ignorable, his BR2 where you actually defeat him has stats Merlinus's donkey could excrete even on Lunatic. Leaving his BR1 Opera House fight, where you really don't have to fight him, but it isn't difficult to, the one fight against him which is anything of challenge. He is such a weak enemy to me that to treat him like a villain is something of a joke. Ryoma's 2 CQ battles make him out to be a much stronger foe (but not unbeatable of course). But this is just talking gameplay.

 

As for Camus, Camus is never an ally as Camus, save in one battle of Archanea Chronicles. He is an ally as Zeke and as Sirius, and these will eventually appear in some other capacity in Heroes, maybe TT Zeke and pull Sirius. Both Zeke and Sirius come after Camus has "died" and is hence freed from his Camusian obligations of loyalty to an disagreeable cause unto death.

There's also Fuga, and Flora. Flora would've been perfect as a Fates GHB unit. Xander is practically a big FE lord, and his presence in Revelations was still very high compared to other Fates' major characters so he didn't deserve GHB treatment regardless. 

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On 7.2.2018 at 3:27 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Some of my opinions that are unpopular:

  • Tharja is overrated as a unit. I find it hard to see her as living up to the hype with her bad skill and luck resulting in trouble hitting with non-wind magics. The latter also results in her facing crit chances often, which is unacceptable in a game series as punishing as this.
  • Berserkers are the worst class in Fates. Having first-class offense is one thing, but it shouldn't come at the cost of being vulnerable to critical hits.
  • Faye isn't that bad a character.
  • Ryoma is overrated af. He might be one of the best units in Birthright, but what he ISN'T is an immortal god of war.
  • Fates' story wasn't that bad.

I agree with all of these wholeheartedly.
Though I'd argue that the hybrid classes, namely Basara, Dark Knight, Malig Knight and Oni Chieftain are at least as bad as Berserkers, because most of the time, they fail at being hybrid classes. They're either good at physical or magical attacks, but never both. And even then, there are better alternatives, i.e. Sorcerer, Onmyoji on the magic side, Spear Master and Wyvern Lord on the physical. Oni Savage in it's entirety is only really useful for (PvP) skills, really.
Just my two cents, though.

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1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

I agree with all of these wholeheartedly.
Though I'd argue that the hybrid classes, namely Basara, Dark Knight, Malig Knight and Oni Chieftain are at least as bad as Berserkers, because most of the time, they fail at being hybrid classes. They're either good at physical or magical attacks, but never both. And even then, there are better alternatives, i.e. Sorcerer, Onmyoji on the magic side, Spear Master and Wyvern Lord on the physical. Oni Savage in it's entirety is only really useful for (PvP) skills, really.
Just my two cents, though.

This has been a problem I've had with hybrid units in any game, really. There's really no reason for hybrid units outside of locking more skills behind level walls, and they very rarely make sense on even a conceptual level. 

Bandits and barbarians=Brutes, use axes

Mercs and myrmidons=Speedy, skilled fighters, use swords

Oni Chieftain=???, use axes and magic??? 

I'd really want the next FE to scale back on hybrid units, just because most of them feel like fluff added because there's some weird mentality that's especially apparent with Fates that "more=better". It doesn't feel like they exist because somebody had a genuinely interesting idea to add to gameplay, it feels like they exist because somebody was forced into a room for 4 hours and had to come up with more class ideas or they wouldn't get their lunch break. 

Edited by Slumber

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2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

This has been a problem I've had with hybrid units in any game, really. There's really no reason for hybrid units outside of locking more skills behind level walls, and they very rarely make sense on even a conceptual level. 

Pretty true.

The original hybrid- Priestess/Princess, had little reason to use Swords after the beginning of Gaiden due to low Mov and more powerful and safer to use magic, if SoV is anything to go by.

And then FE4 adds Mage Knights and Mage Fighters. While not having 1-2 range is pretty fine from what little I know, and even though Swords are the best weapon type besides Wind in FE4, Azel and Tailtiu are not suited to using Swords, nor are Arthur and Tine or their subs, unless the Tordo twins get a physical dad, which causes them to need Swords to avoid the bench.

Leif and Lachesis have terrible Magic, so them going hybrid offense on promotion isn't great from what I'm aware, other than having heard some use for Tornado!Leif (since no one else wants it unless Tine has Lewyn as a dad). 

Illios might be the one good hybrid unit in FE5, unless Amalda with a magic sword counts, Olwen and Miranda have not enough Str.

Skip to FE9, and however though that giving pathetically weak Knives as a promotion option for Sages just wanted to gimp Calill and Bastian by keeping them from Staffs, or they wanted to make unfunny emo Soren/cannibal Ilyana jokes.

FE13- We have three hybrid classes: Dread Fighter, Dark Flier, and Dark Knight. Dread Fighter leans towards physical in caps, and Axes are nearly as viable as Tomes given easily buyable 1-2 range. Dark Flier can use Javelins, but with caps leaning towards magical, just stick with Tomes. Dark Knight- Swords are pained in FE13 by the absence of an infinitely buyable physical variant, so unless you have Ragnells and Armsthrift, your DK is best sticking to Tomes because 13 is so Enemy Phase heavy that 1-2 range unless on a full GF team is a sine qua non.

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19 minutes ago, Slumber said:

This has been a problem I've had with hybrid units in any game, really. There's really no reason for hybrid units outside of locking more skills behind level walls, and they very rarely make sense on even a conceptual level. 

Bandits and barbarians=Brutes, use axes

Mercs and myrmidons=Speedy, skilled fighters, use swords

Oni Chieftain=???, use axes and magic??? 

I'd really want the next FE to scale back on hybrid units, just because most of them feel like fluff added because there's some weird mentality that's especially apparent with Fates that "more=better". It doesn't feel like they exist because somebody had a genuinely interesting idea to add to gameplay, it feels like they exist because somebody was forced into a room for 4 hours and had to come up with more class ideas or they wouldn't get their lunch break. 

My best guess is that they were going for the Magic Knight trope on most of these.
Hybrid classes are admittedly very well suited as a segue for magically oriented folk to go into a more physically oriented class or vice versa when skill grinding (which even then, is actually painful. Who in their right mind decided it was a good idea to give a magical reclass option to physical units (Kagero, Kaden, Effie) / physical reclass option to magical units (Elise, Nyx, Orochi)?), but otherwise, I just don't really get the point. I mean, who seriously used Leo's sword rank? I know I certainly didn't.

The other thing I can imagine is that the Basara and Oni Chieftain classes are somehow rooted in Japanese mythology and that's why they can use magic in addition to physical stuff. Malig Knight and Dark Knight are easier to justify: Dark Knight is literally a Magic Knight, while the Malig Knight class rides a Zombie wyvern, which in itself is necromancy, a form of magic.
It's also not like Hybrid classes were invented by Fates. I hear the Dark Knight class, itself a returnee from Awakening, has actually been in FE4 and 5 as well and in FE9, you had the option of giving Daggers to your Mages  as a secondary weapon upon promotion, but why the actual hell would you ever do that? *angrily stares at FE9!Calil*

But yeah, all in all, they're pretty much pointless.

EDIT: Nvm, Interdimensional Observer has already said this.

Edited by DragonFlames

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40 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

My best guess is that they were going for the Magic Knight trope on most of these.
Hybrid classes are admittedly very well suited as a segue for magically oriented folk to go into a more physically oriented class or vice versa when skill grinding (which even then, is actually painful. Who in their right mind decided it was a good idea to give a magical reclass option to physical units (Kagero, Kaden, Effie) / physical reclass option to magical units (Elise, Nyx, Orochi)?), but otherwise, I just don't really get the point. I mean, who seriously used Leo's sword rank? I know I certainly didn't.

The other thing I can imagine is that the Basara and Oni Chieftain classes are somehow rooted in Japanese mythology and that's why they can use magic in addition to physical stuff. Malig Knight and Dark Knight are easier to justify: Dark Knight is literally a Magic Knight, while the Malig Knight class rides a Zombie wyvern, which in itself is necromancy, a form of magic.
It's also not like Hybrid classes were invented by Fates. I hear the Dark Knight class, itself a returnee from Awakening, has actually been in FE4 and 5 as well and in FE9, you had the option of giving Daggers to your Mages  as a secondary weapon upon promotion, but why the actual hell would you ever do that? *angrily stares at FE9!Calil*

But yeah, all in all, they're pretty much pointless.

EDIT: Nvm, Interdimensional Observer has already said this.

Hybrids definitely didn't start with Fates. They've been around since FE2, but they've been pretty sparse. FE4-5 had Mage Knights/Valkyries and Mage Fighters, with Master Knight being a Lord promotion for Lachesis and Leif, and Barons, who were enemy only. All of them had situational uses, but by and large, you just had most of them just sticking to either physical OR magical damage, rarely ever actively switching between the fly. Sage from FE9 and 10 with the Knife option is more or less the Mage Fighter brought back, only with there being 0 reason to ever use a Knife. Mist as a Valkyrie is slightly better off and can actually make use of swords, but she falls off in the endgame in this regard. 

FE13 had Grandmaster, Dark Knights, War Monks, Tricksters and Dark Fliers(With Falcon Knights gaining Staves at promotion instead of Swords). Dark Knights and Dark Fliers make sense to me. Dark Knights are just a Magic Knight concept, and Peggies in FE have always been closely linked to magic. Falcon Knights, even though I hate the change, also make sense. Grandmaster is sort of a necessity for a proper Avatar class. Regardless, on a base level, I don't think Dark Knights pulled off being hybrids well, and the other three classes were pretty middling. But this is Awakening, so anyone can be good at anything/everything. Tricksters and War Monks still make no goddamn sense to me, and they're the first signs to me that IS was just throwing in hybrids for the hell of it. 

Fates is where seemingly they just stopped caring altogether. There's like what? 11 hybrid classes? And I can't think of reasons for like 7 of them. And the 4 that I can aren't balanced particularly well. Certainly not enough to really justify them. 

I mean, Fates was filled with bizarre-ass classes even without hybrids(Machinists, anyone?), but the hybrids are so thoroughly baffling that they're easier to point at as a whole. 

Edited by Slumber

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15 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Tricksters and War Monks still make no goddamn sense to me, and they're the first signs to me that IS was just throwing in hybrids for the hell of it. 

Funny thing is, I'd say they weren't that bad off - for the most part, the effectiveness of healing is linked to the staff being used.

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

This has been a problem I've had with hybrid units in any game, really. There's really no reason for hybrid units outside of locking more skills behind level walls, and they very rarely make sense on even a conceptual level. 

On that note, would you say Master Knights suffered from the issues that plagued hybrid units? Because I've seen people clamoring in "which classes should return?" threads that Master Knight should return, but I'm not sold. Especially not in this day and age, where you have to actually work to get your weapon ranks up.

2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

I agree with all of these wholeheartedly.
Though I'd argue that the hybrid classes, namely Basara, Dark Knight, Malig Knight and Oni Chieftain are at least as bad as Berserkers, because most of the time, they fail at being hybrid classes. They're either good at physical or magical attacks, but never both. And even then, there are better alternatives, i.e. Sorcerer, Onmyoji on the magic side, Spear Master and Wyvern Lord on the physical. Oni Savage in it's entirety is only really useful for (PvP) skills, really.
Just my two cents, though.

Yeah - I practically never bother with those classes, and the one Malig Knight you get is best off going to Wyvern Lord stat.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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23 minutes ago, Slumber said:

FE13 had Grandmaster, Dark Knights, War Monks, Tricksters and Dark Fliers(With Falcon Knights gaining Staves at promotion instead of Swords). Dark Knights and Dark Fliers make sense to me. Dark Knights are just a Magic Knight concept, and Peggies in FE have always been closely linked to magic. Falcon Knights, even though I hate the change, also make sense. Grandmaster is sort of a necessity for a proper Avatar class. Regardless, on a base level, I don't think Dark Knights pulled off being hybrids well, and the other three classes were pretty middling. But this is Awakening, so anyone can be good at anything/everything. Tricksters and War Monks still make no goddamn sense to me, and they're the first signs to me that IS was just throwing in hybrids for the hell of it. 

 

Forgot the Grandmaster, which does make sense for an Avatar unit, even if Swords are still the worst physical type not Bows by a longshot. If Robin started with Lances and Tomes instead, maybe I would be inclined to go physical for once.

24 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Fates is where seemingly they just stopped caring altogether. There's like what? 11 hybrid classes? And I can't think of reasons for like 7 of them. And the 4 that I can aren't balanced particularly well. Certainly not enough to really justify them. 

I mean, Fates was filled with bizarre-ass classes even without hybrids(Machinists, anyone?), but the hybrids are so thoroughly baffling that they're easier to point at as a whole. 

While we would have had Pegasus and Wyverns, Myrmidons and Mercenaries, Mages and Dark Mages; and maybe Soldiers instead of Spear Fighters and Bandits/Barbarians over Oni Savages, I think the core issue may be FE14 had to invent two countries' worth of classes.

Some things, like Outlaw instead of the typical Thief to counter the absence of Archers in Nohr, and Ninjas to provide a class that used the new Daggers/Shuriken weapon type, worked out well, but others clearly did not. Not even Fates can remember it has the Blacksmith class; it's fought... twice? (I thought it looked cool and wish Hinata was good as one, but it's just a Hero clone.)

And I don't quite put Staff-Physical units in the same category as Physical-Magic hybrids. Staffs heal and do other supportive things which don't necessarily require a lot of Magic (hence Ethlyn and Nanna having poor Magic but still being useful). Nanna might have crap Magic, but with a Mend she can still heal 20+ HP, which is works most of the time, even if I'd leave my status Staff use to Saphy with her higher Magic.

Tomes and physical weaponry are both used to attack- the same job, and I can only equip one or the other at a given time; never outside of Ignis do the two stats combine for attacking. You need a high stat in either for dealing good damage in the first place as well, so you need the stats to be comparable and strong for true hybrid offensive potential, or for one of enemy Def/Res to be lower than the other without it being overpoweringly so in the favor of one of the two weapon choices. And the weapon types themselves need to be about equal in relevant statistics. Balancing all these things just so is much harder.

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2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Forgot the Grandmaster, which does make sense for an Avatar unit, even if Swords are still the worst physical type not Bows by a longshot. If Robin started with Lances and Tomes instead, maybe I would be inclined to go physical for once.

While we would have had Pegasus and Wyverns, Myrmidons and Mercenaries, Mages and Dark Mages; and maybe Soldiers instead of Spear Fighters and Bandits/Barbarians over Oni Savages, I think the core issue may be FE14 had to invent two countries' worth of classes.

Some things, like Outlaw instead of the typical Thief to counter the absence of Archers in Nohr, and Ninjas to provide a class that used the new Daggers/Shuriken weapon type, worked out well, but others clearly did not. Not even Fates can remember it has the Blacksmith class; it's fought... twice? (I thought it looked cool and wish Hinata was good as one, but it's just a Hero clone.)

And I don't quite put Staff-Physical units in the same category as Physical-Magic hybrids. Staffs heal and do other supportive things which don't necessarily require a lot of Magic (hence Ethlyn and Nanna having poor Magic but still being useful). Nanna might have crap Magic, but with a Mend she can still heal 20+ HP, which is works most of the time, even if I'd leave my status Staff use to Saphy with her higher Magic.

Tomes and physical weaponry are both used to attack- the same job, and I can only equip one or the other at a given time; never outside of Ignis do the two stats combine for attacking. You need a high stat in either for dealing good damage in the first place as well, so you need the stats to be comparable and strong for true hybrid offensive potential, or for one of enemy Def/Res to be lower than the other without it being overpoweringly so in the favor of one of the two weapon choices. And the weapon types themselves need to be about equal in relevant statistics. Balancing all these things just so is much harder.

I use Hinata as a Blacksmith on my current Birthright run. He's certainly better than as a Samurai / Swordmaster (particularly when compared to Hana or Ryoma), because he can finally make use of his admittedly high Defence stat / growth, but otherwise, as you said, it's basically Hero, albeit with a bit more focus of Defence instead of Speed and Luck. 

With balancing Strength and Magic comes the issue of being good at neither. Either the unit is good at one thing, the other thing, or they can do both, but there's always someone who can do better than them in one of the two categories, in which case it's hard to find a place for them on the team. I want to name Pidgeot, as in, the Pokémon, as an example. It has very balanced stats, but it's not good at either Physical or Special attacks, so there are Pokémon you can use that are much stronger than Pidgeot. In it's original generation, there's Fearow and in Gen VI, you have Talonflame, both of whom are outright better than Pidgeot because they don't have the issue of being TOO balanced.
One of the only things that would salvage hybrids is the fact that they are the only ones being able to use the magic weapons like the Levin Sword effectively.

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2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

With balancing Strength and Magic comes the issue of being good at neither. Either the unit is good at one thing, the other thing, or they can do both, but there's always someone who can do better than them in one of the two categories, in which case it's hard to find a place for them on the team. I want to name Pidgeot, as in, the Pokémon, as an example. It has very balanced stats, but it's not good at either Physical or Special attacks, so there are Pokémon you can use that are much stronger than Pidgeot. In it's original generation, there's Fearow and in Gen VI, you have Talonflame, both of whom are outright better than Pidgeot because they don't have the issue of being TOO balanced.
One of the only things that would salvage hybrids is the fact that they are the only ones being able to use the magic weapons like the Levin Sword effectively.

So Mega-Evolution, or OverClasses, fixes this problem?

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9 hours ago, Slumber said:

Tricksters and War Monks still make no goddamn sense to me, and they're the first signs to me that IS was just throwing in hybrids for the hell of it. 

War monks are probably a reference to the Crusades, where monks were forbidden from wielding bladed weapons, and instead used maces or other blunt weapons. Considering the hammer is really the only blunt weapon in the Fire Emblem series, they had to settle with axes (I got this information from this page from TV Tropes). As for Tricksters, I don't know. Maybe it's going along with the trope that trickster characters are as helpful in as many stories as they are problematic?

 

I've actually have had an idea for a while on handling hybrid classes, but it requires the magic triangle to return (and potentially third tier classes and/or branching promotions). Upon promotion, dark magic users could gain a sword, Anima users gain a lance, and light magic users get an axe. In this way, these classes cover the magics weakness (dark magic is powerful, but inaccurate, while swords are the weakest physical weapon, but have the highest chance to hit. Similarly Light magic is accurate but weak, while axes are the opposite. Anima users get the short end of the stick as both weapons are balanced) while also countering their previous disadvantage with the magic triangle (dark mages can know counter light mages in the weapon triangle, light mage users have the advantage against anima users, so on and so forth). As nice as this idea is, I have no idea how well it would work in practice.

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16 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

So Mega-Evolution, or OverClasses, fixes this problem?

Only when one of these things makes it so that you escape the "balance" curse, which in Pidgeot's case thankfully happened.

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4 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

Only when one of these things makes it so that you escape the "balance" curse, which in Pidgeot's case thankfully happened.

No Guard Hurricane for the win!

Too bad they locked Pidgeotite up in such a way that no casual player would know how to get it in ORAS without looking it up. It's still the only one I'm missing.

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On 2/8/2018 at 10:31 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Not even Fates can remember it has the Blacksmith class; it's fought... twice? (I thought it looked cool and wish Hinata was good as one, but it's just a Hero clone.)

Try once (that once being in Sakura's chapter in Conquest). The only other times I've seen it are in DLC maps.

On 2/8/2018 at 10:31 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Tomes and physical weaponry are both used to attack- the same job, and I can only equip one or the other at a given time; never outside of Ignis do the two stats combine for attacking. You need a high stat in either for dealing good damage in the first place as well, so you need the stats to be comparable and strong for true hybrid offensive potential, or for one of enemy Def/Res to be lower than the other without it being overpoweringly so in the favor of one of the two weapon choices. And the weapon types themselves need to be about equal in relevant statistics. Balancing all these things just so is much harder.

On 2/8/2018 at 12:45 PM, DragonFlames said:

With balancing Strength and Magic comes the issue of being good at neither. Either the unit is good at one thing, the other thing, or they can do both, but there's always someone who can do better than them in one of the two categories, in which case it's hard to find a place for them on the team. I want to name Pidgeot, as in, the Pokémon, as an example. It has very balanced stats, but it's not good at either Physical or Special attacks, so there are Pokémon you can use that are much stronger than Pidgeot. In it's original generation, there's Fearow and in Gen VI, you have Talonflame, both of whom are outright better than Pidgeot because they don't have the issue of being TOO balanced.
One of the only things that would salvage hybrids is the fact that they are the only ones being able to use the magic weapons like the Levin Sword effectively.

I must say, both of you hit the nail on the head there. This is more relevant competitive wise, but I'd say Kommo-o has a similar problem relative to the other pseudo-legends (outdone specially by Hydreigon and Goodra, outdone physically by the rest). It doesn't help its case that the Tapus are everywhere. Nor does it that its typing is pretty bad.

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On 2/8/2018 at 10:01 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Funny thing is, I'd say they weren't that bad off - for the most part, the effectiveness of healing is linked to the staff being used.

If it was a physical unit that gained staves, it might have worked a bit better, but as a magic/staff healer that gained axes? It was a bit wonky, and I can't say I ever kept Libra as a War Monk, and didn't really bother making Lissa one, either.

On 2/8/2018 at 10:01 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

On that note, would you say Master Knights suffered from the issues that plagued hybrid units? Because I've seen people clamoring in "which classes should return?" threads that Master Knight should return, but I'm not sold. Especially not in this day and age, where you have to actually work to get your weapon ranks up.

The thing with Master Knights is that their potency wasn't really dramatically impacted by being hybrid units. For the most part, you could entirely ignore them as magic users(Though there were situations where it'd come in handy) and just keep them as powerful physical units that could also heal on the front lines.

In that regard, I don't think they were good hybrid units. Neither of the Master Knights were anywhere near as effective as magic units as they were as physical units. I think they were better hybrid units than most, purely since you didn't really need a particularly good magic stat to deal damage in FE4, but they weren't ideal.

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I just read the whole thing out of curiosity(I'm bored and lack the motivation to do anything) and it's actually neat to see how many people agree with each other. Hard to say it's unpopular when so many share the sentiment but I suppose a few dozen are nothing against the mass of thousands upon thousands. 

Anyways here are some of mine:

 - Pelleas is one of my favourite characters from Radiant Dawn. Mind you I've only watched some clips and read the script.

 - I ship Lyn with Kent. It's always Lyn and Hector or Lyn and Florina.

 - Even though I love Lilina I don't like Roy. I don't like smash either so unfortunately that couldn't save my opinion of him.

 - I absolutely despise Lucina. I truly do.

 - I like the gameplay in Revelations. When you do stupid shit like giving joke weapons to everyone and making the worst possible pairings the run becomes pure gold. Admittedly it becomes a mess but it's a beautiful mess.

 - I like the artstyle of fe11 and fe12. The battle sprites were lazy but the character portraits were neat.

Off the top of my head this is all I got.

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55 minutes ago, Slumber said:

If it was a physical unit that gained staves, it might have worked a bit better, but as a magic/staff healer that gained axes? It was a bit wonky, and I can't say I ever kept Libra as a War Monk, and didn't really bother making Lissa one, either.

The thing with Master Knights is that their potency wasn't really dramatically impacted by being hybrid units. For the most part, you could entirely ignore them as magic users(Though there were situations where it'd come in handy) and just keep them as powerful physical units that could also heal on the front lines.

In that regard, I don't think they were good hybrid units. Neither of the Master Knights were anywhere near as effective as magic units as they were as physical units. I think they were better hybrid units than most, purely since you didn't really need a particularly good magic stat to deal damage in FE4, but they weren't ideal.

It's always seemed like hybrid units work out the best in games with generally low res enemies since it won't take a lot of magic to deal decent damage to them. In a game like fates where enemies have good def and res gaining physical or magic after a promotion when you used to focus in only one doesn't help since you're going to continue doing the best damage with what you were already using. In games with better def and worse res gaining magic could actually help you chip some bulky opponents, but these classes with no real focus end up being pretty worthless for anything other than their skills.

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