Revival of Mafia Mafia- Day 3

[Izhuark]

I'm not dedicated to argue a paper lynch actually. I'm dedicated to argue on anything paperblade is just my only real read for now. But people jumped on me for voting him and i admit that i freaked out because i didn't saw what was wrong in my manner of putting it.

Yeah i think Shin should come back and start playing so we can move on from his shitposting and have actual reads. Same for zeonth and gaius but for different reasons, noc should take more effort than eimm imo it's not because the deadline is larger than you can flake more.

[BBM]

@cam- prims claiming numbers isn't really relevant to the scumslip though? gaius pointed out the same thing, albeit as a joke, on the first page. more importantly I still don't get your reason for voting izhuark. how is izhuark's reason for voting paperblade similar to his reason for saying SB wasn't scummy?

@refa- I did say why I unvoted SB, in the post where I voted Cam... I said that I originally didn't like the vote because it seemed opportunistic to vote for something he could have voted for earlier, but as a pressure vote for reactions it's ok. The Cam thing didn't bother me until I reread the thread to look for a better vote when I didn't want to vote SB anymore.

prims's shin vote is lazy. I agree that it's bad play for Shin to self-vote but it's still something Shin has done a lot as town, which Prims even alludes to in his post. 

[ZoesMad]

Catching up

[BBM]

also numbers just seems like an easy fake. almost all 12p setups are 9/3; the utility it offers over a vanilla is minimal.

[ZoesMad]

Prims pushing Shins self vote bothers me, especially since it was in the muck of RVS.

##Vote Prims

[ZoesMad]

Izhu wagon is not my favorite. Cam's voting him for the discussion ended point mainly which is more semantics than anything else and Boron's vote doesn't make much sense to me. If Izhu believes Mafia would/wouldn't do something (regardless of the true answer) he'd push/vote according to that belief. Where's the actual scum intent in his Paper vote (bad logic isn:t scum intent)

[Prims]

15 minutes ago, Lord Gaius said:

Prims pushing Shins self vote bothers me, especially since it was in the muck of RVS.

##Vote Prims

If I hadn't posted then who would your vote be on right now if not also still on Shin?

[ZoesMad]

probably Boron

[Prims]

35 minutes ago, BBM said:

also numbers just seems like an easy fake. almost all 12p setups are 9/3; the utility it offers over a vanilla is minimal.

why does scum need a useless fakeclaim in a game where the OP states there's non-zero number of vanillas? if anything this would screw over a theoretical scum!Prims if he got tracked on the kill later on. this looks like you're trying to discredit me even though the numbers claim doesn't really mean anything

[Sunwoo]

2 hours ago, Refa said:

If SB's reasoning didn't bother you, why did you vote him in the first place?

What confuses me is how you can excuse SB and Cam for trying to get out of RVS but aren't considering the possibility that Izhuark did the same thing.  Maybe there's something that makes Izhuark's vote worse but I'm not seeing it.  I'm also not bothered by his later posts (if he was trying to get votes off of him as opposed to ending a pedantic discussion, I would be), but that's beside the point.

Because I was trying to contribute to getting out of RVS and wanted to see how SB would react to additional votes on him.

The main reason why I can excuse SB and Cam is because I know they've been playing mafia for a while and know they're capable of thinking "one step ahead" like that. I don't know enough about Izuhark's interactions in mafia to believe he can do the same.

Also, didn't read page 4 yet.

[Prims]

6 minutes ago, Lord Gaius said:

probably Boron

why vote me over Boron now then?

in fact I'm not particularly fond of Gaius' posts in general; what he says about Cam's Izhuark vote is diminishing the back and forth to one post which was made after Cam's initial vote, and the vote on me is also very insubstantial compared to what he has on Boron (what's actually wrong with pushing somebody's self-vote?). going for an easy vote while throwing shade at a wagon without getting directly involved seems like a convenient position to take here. I actually think Boron's vote has a clear reason behind it which he's ignoring too but I'll let her address that herself.
##Unvote
##Vote: Lord Gaius

FWIW I don't find Shin particularly scummy but besides Zeonth nobody else bugged me either at the time (four people still hadn't posted content!) so I wanted to at least see how Shin would respond if I kept my vote down. Gaius actually reads scummy to me though so no point in that anymore.

[Prims]

24 minutes ago, Prims said:

this looks like you're trying to discredit me even though the numbers claim doesn't really mean anything

to be clear I don't really think BBM is scum I just think it's not a good thing to post

[Sunwoo]

Okay, I reread the last three pages again (helpful note: posting right after a nap is not the best idea).

Lord Gaius: You may not like Prims pushing Shin's self-vote in RVS, but is it scummy? And why is it scummier than anything else people have done in the game? How does pushing the self-vote in the muck of RVS make it worse? Also, Izuhark's vote on Paperblade is not well-explained. He asks Paper to expand his thought process but doesn't actually say why it's scummy. He goes into hypotheticals and assumptions to "back up" his vote on Paperblade (which I feel does not justify his vote), and seems like he wants to shut down discussion because it was "getting on my nerve".

There's also this:

4 hours ago, Izhuark said:

2. The discussion wasn't about paperblade himself. It was about the reasons mafia could have to put someone at hammer range just after RVS. So stop making it look like it was a case on paper blade when it obviously wasn't.

Then why the heck are you voting him.

[BBM]

54 minutes ago, Prims said:

why does scum need a useless fakeclaim in a game where the OP states there's non-zero number of vanillas? if anything this would screw over a theoretical scum!Prims if he got tracked on the kill later on. this looks like you're trying to discredit me even though the numbers claim doesn't really mean anything

vanilla claims would also get screwed if they get tracked, though I guess numbers give less flexibility. but non-vanilla claims just look better than vanilla, even something like numbers. it's minor but meh.

I don't really know how to read izhuark's posts tbh. I can't particularly find a reason for why he's town but I think he is. boron's case is better than cam's though.

[CT075]

 

8 hours ago, Izhuark said:

Well it doesn't seem that opportunistic to me, i must agree with SB on that one. That Day one was slowest ever and we needed to get it started. There are no reason for mafia to put someone in hammer range without actually hammering them (and even then it's pretty dum), yeah they could bait a towny to put suspicion on him but that will never happen ED1.

I don't like this vote justification because it reads like a handwave "i don't like this" with a slapdash reason and feels like scum pre-emptively distancing from a wagon that wasn't likely to go anywhere (in particular by buddying with SB)

 

i'll admit that "this discussion is over" is probably not a good reason, but i still think it's an inherently anti-town thing to say. mafia 101 aside, it's as i said -- it's a really easy way to make it feel like something holds less weight than it does

4 hours ago, Refa said:

Cam, why did you vote Paper?  He just said "I don't think this is scummy" and you were like "well it's fine for ED1" and that translates to a vote how?

I disliked that because it felt like paperblade was just laying it down as a random defense without much substance (it's pretty weak but i wasn't going to vote for shin at that stage) -- you'll also note that i unvoted pretty soon afterwards

 

more coming

[CT075]

3 hours ago, Izhuark said:

it's true that his reversal seemed a little off

what reversal?

i swapped off of paperblade because i found someone i felt would be more productive to press

what does "a little off" even mean? are you saying i'm scummy or not? this entire part just seems like pointless fluff

2 hours ago, Izhuark said:

i admit that i freaked out because i didn't saw what was wrong in my manner of putting it.

fine. this is reasonable. at the same time, i don't see why town cares about what they look like

2 hours ago, BBM said:

@cam- prims claiming numbers isn't really relevant to the scumslip though? gaius pointed out the same thing, albeit as a joke, on the first page. more importantly I still don't get your reason for voting izhuark. how is izhuark's reason for voting paperblade similar to his reason for saying SB wasn't scummy?

the shortest answer to "why didn't you vote shin when you voted SB" is that it slipped my mind due to it being 5 am

i thought there were actually people on an sb wagon at that time (which would make paperblade getting on sb's wagon actually a thing). i'll freely admit i wasn't paying much attention to ed1 posts so i missed that the people on SB were RVS

1 hour ago, Lord Gaius said:

Cam's voting him for the discussion ended point mainly which is more semantics than anything else

that's not why i voted him, but it didn't make me feel better about him.

 

[CT075]

all that being said, i'm no longer really sure why i voted izhu in the first place. his reactions to it, though, i think are worth keeping track of (i don't think i'm gonna move my vote yet)

[CT075]

i'm also inclined to believe prims' numbers claim because i have no reason not to

[CT075]

2 minutes ago, CT075 said:

the shortest answer to "why didn't you vote shin when you voted SB" is that it slipped my mind due to it being 5 am

s/slipped my mind/i didn't see it/g

[Prims]

Spamtech075

[CT075]

come to think of it, SB said that he voted shin to get shin to talk. has shin said anything? legitimately curious, i don't see it

[CT075]

4 minutes ago, Prims said:

Spamtech075

i blame rich text making it painful to post normally

[CT075]

9 minutes ago, CT075 said:

what does "a little off" even mean? are you saying i'm scummy or not? this entire part just seems like pointless fluff

clarification: what i'm reading is literally "cam waffled/reversed his opinion which is 'a little off' but not scummy"

like, what does 'a little off' mean, then? that's just an opening to say literally anything about it later

[Refa]

1 hour ago, BBM said:

@refa- I did say why I unvoted SB, in the post where I voted Cam... I said that I originally didn't like the vote because it seemed opportunistic to vote for something he could have voted for earlier, but as a pressure vote for reactions it's ok. The Cam thing didn't bother me until I reread the thread to look for a better vote when I didn't want to vote SB anymore.

prims's shin vote is lazy. I agree that it's bad play for Shin to self-vote but it's still something Shin has done a lot as town, which Prims even alludes to in his post. 

Oh, I thought you were saying your vote was a pressure vote for reactions.  I'm dumb and also wasted fifteen minutes of my life making that case.

Do you think his vote is scummy?

1 hour ago, Lord Gaius said:

Izhu wagon is not my favorite. Cam's voting him for the discussion ended point mainly which is more semantics than anything else and Boron's vote doesn't make much sense to me. If Izhu believes Mafia would/wouldn't do something (regardless of the true answer) he'd push/vote according to that belief. Where's the actual scum intent in his Paper vote (bad logic isn:t scum intent)

Why is Prims worse than Boron?

53 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Because I was trying to contribute to getting out of RVS and wanted to see how SB would react to additional votes on him.

The main reason why I can excuse SB and Cam is because I know they've been playing mafia for a while and know they're capable of thinking "one step ahead" like that. I don't know enough about Izuhark's interactions in mafia to believe he can do the same.

Also, didn't read page 4 yet.

Fair enough.

Seems like an unfair assumption to me (don't think it takes experience to make a weak ass RVS vote), but whatever.  Your latest post shifted your Izhuark read from "actively bothers me" to "I can see how you'd have that read as town", so it's not worth nitpicking.

Is anyone else bothering you?

 

Stream of consciousness time because I feel like I've reached a dead end in terms of my reads.

-Gaius' latest posts don't bother me.  He makes similar posts as both alignments, and its from his followups that I'll get a read of any value (and if he doesn't make any at all, then he's probably scum got emm).

-I'm not sure about Cam.  I'm fine with his Paper vote, don't really like his Izhuark case.  It feels like a case he'd make as scum (by which I mean he's voting someone who reacts badly to pressure and not reevaluating his read) but his actual posts read as genuine (in particular, his last few posts).

-Reading back, Elieson made several posts in the middle of Paper/SB's spat without making any effort to actually, you know, make reads/votes?  Bothers me because there were ~2 of these and he could have easily commented on the situation.  I don't think it's stronger than my issues with Cam but he's also the only person I am unambiguously okay with voting.

-Everyone else I'm either townreading or don't have an issue with (including Boron/BBM, yes).  No problems here.

##Unvote

##Vote: Elieson

[CT075]

can someone explain gaius' prims vote to me? i read back and all i can find is literally "pushing shin's self-vote", which i can't really find (unless it's "pushing the supposed numbers slip + selfvote"?)