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Erureido

Opinions on that Fire Emblem Echoes SoV Character #1-#52 (Check the OP)

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I remember back when I first started lurking around SerenesForest, there was a thread where fans would discuss their opinions on various characters from Fire Emblem Fates. A successor thread was eventually made for Fire Emblem Awakening following the conclusion of the Fates one, and I remember keenly following both threads because of how interesting it was to hear other people's opinions on various characters.

Now that Echoes has been out for almost three months now amongst the worldwide audience to the point most of us are familiar with the game's cast, I'd figure it'd be a good time to make a "Opinions on that Character" thread for Echoes similar to the Fates and Awakenings ones from the past.

For those that participated in those threads linked above, you should already know how it works. For those that are new to a thread like this, it's simple: each day, I will randomly pick a major character from Fire Emblem Echoes and make a post in this thread asking fans to give their opinion on that character. When giving your answer, you can consider any aspects related to the character: personality, overall character, performance as a unit, stats, design, voice acting, etc.

Below is a list that will be updated with various characters for each passing day:

08/12/17:

#1: Alm

#2: Celica

08/13/17:

#3: Forsyth

#4: Valbar

08/14/17

#5: Tatiana

#6: Atlas

08/15/17

#7: Faye

#8: Nomah

#9: Berkut

08/16/17

#10: Luthier

#11: Kamui

#12: Irma

08/17/17:

#13: Mycen

#14: Boey

#15: Rinea

08/18/17:

#16: Delthea

#17: Est

#18: Halcyon

08/19/17:

#19: Tobin

#20: Conrad

#21: Slayde

08/20/17:

#22: Clair

#23: Leon

#24: Massena

08/21/17:

#25: Mathilda

#26: Genny

#27: Fernand

08/22/17:

#28: Zeke

#29: Saber

#30: Desaix

08/23/17:

#31: Kliff

#32: Palla

 #33: Grieth

08/24/17:

#34: Python

#35: Mae

#36: Nuibaba

08/25/17:

#37: Clive

#38: Jesse

#39: Rudolph

08/26/17:

#40: Lukas

#41: Catria

#42: Jedah

08/27/17:

#43: Silque

#44: Deen

#45: Mila

08/28/17:

#46: Gray

#47: Sonya

#48: Duma

08/29/17:

#49: Randal

#50: Emma

#51: Shade

#52: Yuzu

I'll be posting the next updates to this thread between 8:00-9:00 PM CST each day, so be sure to come back and check around the given time frame to give your opinion on the next batch of characters.

For these first few days, I will present two playable units to give opinions on. After a short while, I will be presenting three characters to give opinions on: two playable units (one from Alm's army, the other from Celica's army) and one major antagonist/major NPC. The choices for these playable units plus major enemy units and NPCs come from SerenesForest's Pre-release Character poll.

 

Edited by Erureido

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Alm: While not my favorite protagonist in the series, he is pretty cool. He does kinda have the whole "lost heir to the throne" thing going, but it doesn't really hurt his character or seem too generic. As a unit, he's one of the best! However, I acknowledge that that may simply be because I tend to always put a focus on leveling up the protagonist. Design-wise, I like his design, his armor is pretty cool and he's one of the few protagonists that doesn't have blue hair!

Celica: Like Alm, she's not my favorite protagonist in the series, but I do still like her, although maybe to a lesser extent than Alm. She seemed kind of thoughtless in some parts in the story, and I couldn't help but frown at it. Unit-wise she, like Alm, is one of the best, but again that may be because of my own playing style. As for her design, I'm a fan! They successfully made her look eloquent, yet her outfit doesn't seem ridiculous for a battlefield.

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Alm: He's actually my favorite Lord in the series (before, it used to be Roy). Very likable personality, an amazing unit, and one of his two signature Arts, Scendscale, reminds me of Monado Buster. While he does feel too perfect, i can forgive him due to him having a very likable personality. Also, that shield drop was 10/10 amazing moment.

Celica: My favorite female Lord in the series. She has her flaws (something most Lords in the series don't have), and i like her dual-style combat of magic and swords. I do think people blow her action in Act 4 and 5 out of proportion. She's also a pretty good unit, being one of the better units on her route. Her signature Art, Ragnarok Omega, is perfect for adding in Megumin's "EXPLOSION" voice clip from Konosuba.

Both of these get points for being one of the few Lords who doesn't have blue hair.

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Alm: I wasn't really ever a fan of him before Echoes, but post-Echoes, I can get behind a character like this. He's kind of in this weird middle ground between Ike and Chrom - he starts as a villager but eventually realizes his noble status. His stats are kind of like theirs too - high Attack and Defense with middling Speed and a sword wielder. Overall he's probably on the upper half of male protagonists for me, he's certainly more interesting than Marth. I don't really get the appeal of his Conqueror overclass, though. If I rated him out of 10, he'd be a 7.5/10.

Celica: She's a mage and can wield swords, so she's got a good start at being one of my favorite unit types overall. She is associated with Fire magic, which while not my favorite, is still pretty cool and matches her color scheme too. Similar to Alm, I think her overclass is overdoing it and prefer her Princess class look. She has a couple of questionable moments in Echoes that make her seem pretty naive and all, but those moments just remind of Eirika in Sacred Stones so I didn't really mind all that much. Not as good as Alm combat-wise, but still a heavy hitter with acceptable bulk. I'd put her somewhere around 8/10.

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Alm:

Spoiler

Alm is my 3rd or 4th favorite lord in the series.

 

As a unit, he is simply amazing and may be the best in the game. He has very good speed, attack, and durability, so he's a very strong front-liner. Double Lion and Scendscale are also very fun to use.

 

In terms of presentation, Alm is very good. He has a good design, and his voice acting is very solid. I also really like that his in-game portrait changes once he promotes.

 

Personality-wise, Alm really shines. He's very friendly and always does what he thinks is right. Although generally laid-back, he is willing to criticize others when he feels that they failed or did something wrong; an example of this is when he blames Clive for the Southern Outpost falling and Clair getting captured. His quotes in villages help to develop his friendly personality and add some more characterization outside of the story. His supports are not the best, but there are some moments that are great, especially in his support with Clair.

 

Alm's role in the story is a mixed bag for me. His route is enjoyable to watch unfold, and I couldn't help but feel very invested in his story by the end of the game. Sometimes, he seems to be praised too much for his actions, which can make him seem too perfect as Armagon said. However, there are several instances when he is criticized; the best example is in the scene where Clive says that Alm "ruined everything" if you let Mathilda die during the fight against Desaix. However, I believe that Alm does a very poor job in helping to develop the themes of SoV. In my view, there are three main themes of SoV: over-reliance on the Gods, balance between pleasure and work, and that anyone can accomplish anything no matter their station of birth. The last two are explored in Alm's story; in both cases, Alm detracts from their development. For balancing pleasure and work, the game tries to strike a contrast between Alm and Celica; Alm is supposed to represent the harsh meritocracy of Rigel whereas Celica is supposed to represent the passivity of the Zofians. However, Alm is not aggressive enough to represent Rigel's themes, and it doesn't feel as though he is influenced very much by Celica, leading Alm to seem too perfect. As for anyone being to accomplish anything, Alm starts off very well. As a villager, he is able to successfully lead the Deliverance and becomes a hero. However, this theme is derailed by the fact that Alm is actually Rudolf's son. If Alm is royalty, then his accomplishments don't prove that a common villager can accomplish anything. In this way, Alm again hurts one of the main themes in the game

 

Overall, I think Alm is a good lord. He has a strong personality, a great design, superb combat use, and an engaging story. However, he's held back by his serious thematic issues.

 

Celica:

Spoiler

Celica is my favorite lord in the series, edging out Hector for the top spot.

 

Like Alm, Celica is an amazing unit. She has terrific growths and a great spell list. I found her to be the most fun unit to use in the game because she could use both magic and swords from the very beginning. I also prefer Ragnarok Omega to Scendscale. She's held back by only having 4 movement, but this can be alleviated by giving her Boots.

 

Celica's presentation is excellent as well. Her design is amazing, and her dungeon and battle animations are also very good. Her voice acting is terrific as well. As I said with Alm, I appreciated that her in-game portrait changed once she promoted.

 

I found Celica's personality to be very enjoyable. She's very kind and tries to do what is right. However, she's also secretive and a little cold; this made her distinctive from the other lords in the series. Like Alm, Celica's personality is also helped by her village quotes. I'm a cat person, so I loved her comments on the cats in the harbors. In my opinion, Celica has some of the best supports in the game; my favorite is her support with Mae. That support dealt with a topic seriously and realistically while mixing in some humorous moments. I also enjoyed her memory prisms, especially the one with Conrad. I liked how she hinted at that memory prism early on in Act 2 when she tells Mae and Boey that she had a brother who was afraid of ghosts; it was a nice detail that people playing through the game a second time could pick up on.

 

In the story, I thought Celica was a pretty deep character. I didn't like that she had to be saved 4 times, but the rest was good. In her fight with Alm at the end of Act 2, she lashed out when she realized he was going to continue leading the Deliverance. Although not the nicest thing to do, it felt realistic. Her dream at the start of Act 2 made her believe that Alm was destined to die, and Alm choosing to lead an army against the strongest military power on the continent would certainly suggest that those fears would come true. She trusts Jedah in Act 4, but this also is inline with her character because she truly believes that people need the Gods to survive. When she was a child, Desaix and Slayde nearly killed her and Conrad. She then goes to live in Ram Village but is forced to move again after Slayde finds her. She goes to live and grow up in the Priory, which is the first place where she finds stability. When considering this, it makes sense that she would be be very dependent on Mila. She doesn't tell her friends about her talks with Jedah, but this is also consistent with her character. Because she feared her identity would be blown, she never revealed to any of the Ram villagers that she was the princess of Zofia. This caused her to become a very secretive person. This is shown in her base conversation with Mae in Act 3. In that conversation, Mae asks Celica who Alm is; the fact that Celica in 7 years never told her best friend about the person she was in love with is a very clear signal that she has always been very secretive. This is also reinforced at the end of Act 3 when she reveals her identity to her entire party. Despite telling everyone that she was the long missing Princess Anthiese, she still preferred to be called Celica; this could signify that her attachment to her secret identity is so strong that she actually prefers it to her true identity. Although I can understand why people would not like her secretiveness, I found it relatable, and it made her actions in Act 4 much more understandable to me. Also, unlike Alm, Celica succeeds in developing SoV's themes. Her story focuses on over-reliance on the Gods and the balance between pleasure and work. As I discussed earlier, Celica is a very religious person who greatly depends on MIla. She sets out on her journey because she believes that Mila can fix everything, and she becomes distraught and feels powerless when she sees that Mila sealed herself. After she dies and is resurrected, however, she realizes that people could survive and prosper on their own. This shows that she learned from her mistakes and developed as a character, which is something that many lords do not do. On the need for balance between pleasure and work, Celica helps to develop this theme much better than Alm. She embodies the traits of Zofia much better than Alm does for Rigel, and her realization that people could survive on their own helps to move her closer toward the middle of the two extremes. For those reasons, Celica does an excellent job at developing SoV's themes.

 

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Alm: A likable guy. He's not my favorite character in this title, but he's I think he's a cool lord. His growth through this game is rather minor, since he sticks to his morals and values entirely and doesn't actually change much. It was more of him gaining experience in real war rather than developing his character. I wish he had different supports though. Faye support wasn't all that interesting, as it focused more on Faye's character than Alm's. Clair support wasn't that interesting, and was a weird choice for a convo. Still need to see the Mycen support... Design wise, I like his look. I personally think he stands out from many of the other lords, although it could because I still need to familiarize myself with them. As a unit, he was amazing. Even without a pitchfork (because he can't even use it), he still manages to get the highest base stat total. I really like in the end dungeon how

Spoiler

he has his own little fight he has to complete. I'm really hoping we get more unit restricted chapters. The only other one I've seen was the Conquest chapter with Azura, Corrin, and Gunter in a playthrough.

Celica: She was okay, but I don't really stand with her actions/beliefs. Honestly, I don't like the naive/peace-loving archetypes for female protagonists. What was it she wanted to do when she talked to Alm? I remember she said something like talking to Rudolph to make resolve. In the midst of clashing steel and death, words mean little to the opposing side. Self-sacrifice isn't a bad feature, but I felt like it was so pushed for her character. She constantly kept her issues to herself, believes in her enemies. I know being a princess in hiding is a very important position to be in, and that the situation ways heavy on her shoulders, but it's so lame to see her getting herself into worse situations because of "I cannot fail my friends, I must do this alone" or "maybe we can talk things through". Design wise, I think she was done very well. As a lord, she stands out heavily from the rest of the females. Unit wise, she was underwhelming. She had a much lower BST than Alm at similar levels. She also died on the Ninth floor of End Game so screw her for that :P

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Alm

My second least favorite lord in the series and the worst written character in Echoes.

Spoiler

Had Alm only been a generic lord like many other protagonists in the series, I wouldn't have cared so much, but the fact of the matter is that the circumstances surrounding Alm are ridiculous. First of all, he directly goes against the two major themes of Echoes, which are unifying two opposing ideals and finding middle ground, and that the circumstances of one's birth aren't relevant to the quality of one's character or abilities. These are the two themes the game pushes very hard, yet the protagonist effectively renders them moot anyway.

The first theme is unnecessary due to Alm starting off the game as a perfect individual that never makes any mistakes, never needs to change his outlook on things and never loses. You might point out that this development in lacking in other lords in the series as well, to which I will agree, but the difference here is that the very theme of the game hinges on Alm and Celica, the human representations of Duma and Mila, needing to influence each other and finding a middle ground. By making Alm perfect, Celica's importance in the story is greatly reduced, since Alm doesn't need her to grow as a person, and he's the one who does all the important things in the story anyway, with Celica being the one to be rescued and forced to apologize towards the end. You might also say that Alm grows more competent as a leader, but that's not any real character development; Alm starts off overly sympathetic and mellow, and that's how he finishes the game, going so far as to not even holding grudges or being upset at Berkut and Fernand, which makes him feel utterly inhuman as a character. If Alm is supposed to represent Duma, then why is he as forgiving as Celica?

The second theme is practically completely contradicted. Alm's noble blood is what saves the day in the end. It's what allows him to pass through the wall that physically hinders everyone else from continuing in Duma's cave. It's Alm's noble blood and/or Brand that allows him to cleanse Falchion and use it to seal Duma. It's Alm and Celica's noble blood that makes some cast members point out how different and better they are than the rest of them. I mean, doesn't this prove Berkut and Fernand right? Alm is born of the highest station in the cast alongside Celica, and they would've been completely failed without his special blood, so therefore, isn't the villainous point of view completely justified?

I know some people like pointing out that, in the epilogue, several commoners rose in rank, but not only do we never get to see that in the main game, but it might as well be because they're buddies with the new God-Emperor of Valentia.

Then there are the more minor things that bug me. Both playable characters and NPC's kiss Alm's boots whenever the opportunity arises, three girls are at least initially enamored with him, he's made leader of the Deliverance on some really flimsy grounds, he handwaves his specialness in spite of overwhelming evidences like with the Royal Sword and thus making him look stupid, and, finally, he unites two countries which have been separated for millenia in a year, completely ignoring social, cultural, economic, religious, linguistic and historical differences. That last part is on the same level as Corrin being given a crown in Revelation. But whereas Corrin just rules over a dead land and nothingness, Alm's got the impossible task of uniting two countries - just look around you in the world today and see how utterly ridiculous this is.

I know that some people believe that the character itself should be removed from how they're treated by other characters or what role they have in the story, and while that is true in some cases, I don't believe that can be applied to the protagonist. This was the same defense that was originally used for Corrin as well, but like Alm, their circumstances and how they're treated by the plot is such a big part in the narrative that it can't be neglected. At least, that is my opinion. However, even if we only look at Alm as a character in a vacuum, ignoring the themes he defies and everything, we'd still be left with a generic lord that's far, far too forgiving, mellow and flawless for me to ever care about him.

Celica

Generic anime princess we've seen dozens of times hit with the idiot bat.

Spoiler

I've seen people try and justify Celica's actions and behavior in chapter four and five many times. Usually, they say it was the only right choice and that she literally had no other options, but I refuse to believe that. I refuse to believe Celica would keep trusting a man she calls "completely insane" - someone who attacks her and her friends and never once backs up his claims. Sure, we know about dragon degeneration, but Celica doesn't. She never receives any proof that it's a real thing, that Jedah can do anything about it or that her soul will be used for its stated purpose. Hell, even when Jedah talks about sending the world into fear and chaos, Celica doesn't react - why would she give up her soul to this man, again? This is not even going into how she treats her supposed friends and allies while keeping all information to herself as they make their way through very hostile territory. I don't care if it makes sense for her character if it makes her completely unlikeable and they only pay lip service to her idiocy.

Then there's the issue of her being completely rendered useless in the main plot anyway because of God-Emperor Alm. What does she even do, or accomplish? Sure she helps out across Valentia and supports Alm, but she fails in her mission and becomes a damsel to be saved. Alm is the one who stops the war, knocks sense into her and kills Duma.

 

Edited by Thane

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Alm: Good, but not great basically sums him up. He gets bows, but he doesn't really get the range an archer can hit with them, and ultimately the range play you can get with your archer of choice just isn't there. His ending gauntlet, aside from forcing a player to use him all the time, simply suggests the fatigue meter might've been a late addition. Personality wise, I didn't really see a whole lot that made him different from Marth or Roy, and when we had "I'll crush these bastards" Alm...

Celica: A much more interesting character, whose main mistake was not being judgemental enough. She's kind, but still plenty childlike. I enjoyed her, and I enjoyed playing her- though getting her up to level 5 to fight the necrodragon means Boey is basically never getting used.

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Oh wow, has it been a year since we got one of these?  'Cuz it sure feels like it...

Anyway, I think I'll participate in this thread.  Or I'll try as much as I can.  Forgive me if I don't post every day.

Alm

So Alm... is essentially given convenient circumstances and challenges.  I know writers often "cheat" to make their characters seem better than they actually are, the most notorious example being Sherlock Holmes seeming smart because the author had him "figure out" mysteries he (the author) already knew.  But while for the latter it was a clever way to express the character's intelligence without alienating readers with mindless sciency/psuedo-intellectual jargon, the former has any chance to grow entirely sapped from him.  You end up with a guy who doesn't ever really change as a character, so in a way he's like a typical shonen anime protagonist.  Except I'd say he has even less character growth than Goku from Dragon Ball, who you at least get to see grow into a mature fighter and see him react dramatically to his closest friend dying twice.

And there's more I could say about how he doesn't really represent Celica's opposite, but Thane pretty much covered all that stuff.  I do like him more than Nohrrin because he actually takes action against injustices as soon as he witnesses them.  And in spite of him not being the best written character ever, I don't think he's all that terrible.  Certainly not offensive by any means, though it's exceptionally difficult to actually offend me (and I mean really offend me; usually when I express an opinion, I exaggerate, so if you thought any one character offended me, you'd be wrong) with works of fiction.

Celica

So ever since... certain gaming controversies that were surfaced, I've always had a very acute awareness to how female characters are treated in media.  That isn't to say that I always equate sexism in games to bad writing... nor is it to say that I think we ought to ban any games that have sexism in them... but...

Well essentially, the damsel in distress/naive princess tropes never do it for me.  I always see them as cheap, simple-minded ways to invoke emotions in men or create conflict.  And Celica's is one of the worst cases I've ever seen in any of the video games I've played.  There was never a point in Chapter 4 where I thought "You know, Celica's got the right idea".  And of course the reason she acts the way she does is because she's obsessed with Alm.  It's always gotta be about the boy, doesn't it?

On the same coin, though, she's the one protagonist that actually does make mistakes.  Of course I have my reservations about that - I think it's mostly to make the boy all the more powerful - but I do think it's refreshing to have a protagonist who actually slips up in the first place.  If anything, it's symbolic of gender disparity in the real world - how women are forced to go the extra 25 miles just to find themselves continuing to trail behind privileged men - though I highly doubt that symbolism is intended by the writers.

 

 

Of the two protagonists, I prefer Celica a bit more.  I just wish that her flaws weren't brute-forced, that Alm wasn't such a Gary Stu, and that Celica wasn't so powerless in the end.

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Alm

To my surprise Alm actually turned out to be one of my more favored lords. He is a very pleasant character to have on screen with his general nice demeanor and incredibly dorky moments which are all voiced very well. Alm generally tends to put a little charm in everything he does, even small actions like addressing the sun as ''mr sun'' or blushing as soon as he sees Matilda. 

His designs isn't really blowing me away but its good enough. He manages to have a very boyish look while still looking more combat orientated than some other lords like Marth or Roy. The combo suits him.

He's a great unit and I particularly enjoy the double lion skill. 

The story doesn't always use Alm in the best ways but he's so likable that I can overlook that. I don't entirely agree with the argument that Alm is particularly worshiped by other characters. Alm isn't elevated to command because he's Alm but as a crafty PR plot that eventually causes a senior member to turn traitor. Clive and Celica aren't particularly shy about criticizing Alm either. At one time Clive even seems to threat Alm like a bit of a tool he wants to dispose of when his use runs out. 

Celica

Overall I really like Celica. I'm a big fan of her design and consider her to be one of the better looking females in the series. I tend not to openly call characters attractive but the fact that I'm very open of doing it to Celica says how much I like her design. Celica's design also very low key on fanservice which only helps its success. 

I could have done without the ''Oh none of you can understand how I feel'' whining but aside from that I like Celica's personality. She's a kind and helpful girl, a bit naive without coming across as meek and with a strong opinion on certain matters. Celica does seem to repress some emotions and keep some amount of distance but while this usually comes across as a character being aloof or indifferent Celica still manages to come off as kind and very close to her friends, particularly Mae.
I don't really like her actions in part 4, especially her behavior towards her comrades but like with Alm I like Celica enough to give her a pass on her questionable moments. I also think her actions are blown a bit out of proportion. At the start of their little deal Jedah actually bothers to have a solid argument to give Celica and he presents himself as more rational than someone in his position needs to be. That he eventually starts cackling is something I find more a problem with Jedah's writing than Celica's. 

I don't think Celica is as good a unit as Alm but I enjoy her more. I enjoy the magic system in Echoes and it made Celica very versatile. Whether its dominating monsters with seraphim, getting that extra bit of range with thunder or healing she tends to have at least some use in every situation. I never really felt compelled to have her use a sword but she's not terrible with it and I appreciate that a mage can use a sword decently. 

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1 hour ago, Ertrick36 said:

But while for the latter it was a clever way to express the character's intelligence without alienating readers with mindless sciency/psuedo-intellectual jargon, the former has any chance to grow entirely sapped from him.

Also worth pointing out that Sherlock Holmes loses several times, and that he manages to piss people off because he's an obnoxious asshole most of the time. This does not apply to Alm.

1 hour ago, Ertrick36 said:

it's exceptionally difficult to actually offend me

Oboro sucks

7 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Clive and Celica aren't particularly shy about criticizing Alm either.

Clive not trusting Alm reflects badly upon the former and gives the latter a chance to prove once and for all that he's a flawless saint; this little subplot ends with Clive bowing down to the God-Emperor and calling him a teacher. Celica, on the other hand, just comes across as a crazy person.

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Alm

I like him. He's like Ephraim without bordering on being kinda Gary Stu-ish. He can be kinda reckless and won't back down from a fight, but can be kind and level headed, though his kindness has limits and isn't afraid to speak his mind or criticize something or someone. I also like that he's just some backwoods kid that wants to prove himself in an unfair and structured world which is very relatable.

Celica

I like her a lot. Best female lord and one of the best overall imo. People who write her off as just pink Eirika or generic dumb/naive anime princess are being extremely disingenuous. She's bold, confident, has her own set of morals, and is willing and able to make sacrifices for the greater good at the cost of her own happiness. That last point reminds be a lot of Marth (another favorite and at times underrated lord). Take his quote: "I am a prince before I am a son or brother.” Celica is the last true living member of the Zofian royal family and thus in her point of view, she has a duty and responsibility to her people as their princess and that comes first and it's something that weighs very heavily on her and it's something that people who criticize her in act 4 don't understand. Both her and Marth go through terrible shit and suffer so much loss when they were younger, all of which hardened them as a person. I also like that her character flaws are actually relevant and bite her in the ass in some points. She has a slight martyr complex and has a tendency to bottle up her emotions at times. Overall she's a very complex character with  a lot of layers.

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1 minute ago, Thane said:

Also worth pointing out that Sherlock Holmes loses several times, and that he manages to piss people off because he's an obnoxious asshole most of the time. This does not apply to Alm.

This is true.  Though even if it wasn't, Holmes is still a more compelling character.  But I prefer intellect to brawn, so maybe I have some bias.

2 minutes ago, Thane said:

Oboro sucks

You can't even pretend that you hate Oboro.  You and I both know this.

4 minutes ago, Thane said:

Celica, on the other hand, just comes across as a crazy person.

Spoiler

As stupid as the scene on top of the castle was, I think it was the only time anyone brought up why Alm being a commoner isn't a good thing for where he's going with his life at that point.  Or at the very least, it was the only time class was brought up and wasn't just typical mindless "I'm superior to you," versus "Station doesn't matter," trite.  I'm talking about when Alm criticized King Lima, and Celica said that Alm was raised a commoner so he couldn't really understand what it would be like to be a king.  That's something I can actually get behind; up until he kills Rudolf, he never even once thinks about what it'd be like to be a king, and he certainly hasn't ever had to wield that kind of authority apart from being the leader of some ragtag band of kids with sticks and a few actual soldiers.

Or maybe I'm just reaching for something more from the classist conflicts because I find such conflicts compelling and was so disappointed by how they were handled in this game that I'm reaching for anything of even remote substance and sense in that regard.

 

9 minutes ago, Bowbow said:

Celica

I like her a lot. Best female lord and one of the best overall imo. People who write her off as just pink Eirika or generic dumb/naive anime princess are being extremely disingenuous. She's bold, confident, has her own set of morals, and is willing and able to make sacrifices for the greater good at the cost of her own happiness. That last point reminds be a lot of Marth (another favorite and at times underrated lord). Take his quote: "I am a prince before I am a son or brother.” Celica is the last true living member of the Zofian royal family and thus in her point of view, she has a duty and responsibility to her people as their princess and that comes first and it's something that weighs very heavily on her and it's something that people who criticize her in act 4 don't understand. Both her and Marth go through terrible shit and suffer so much loss when they were younger, all of which hardened them as a person. I also like that her character flaws are actually relevant and bite her in the ass in some points. She has a slight martyr complex and has a tendency to bottle up her emotions at times. Overall she's a very complex character with  a lot of layers.

You know what else has layers?  Fockin'... onions... *plays Smash Mouth midi*

I mean, more power to you if you like the lords of this game, but I like to think I'm not a disingenuous person.  Though I am of the opinion that a lot of my problems with her come more from the circumstances she's in and the overall convenience in her having the flaws she does so that the story can progress the way it's supposed to and the boy can come along and save the day for her.

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18 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

This is true.  Though even if it wasn't, Holmes is still a more compelling character.

He's great, isn't he? I also feel like he handled some cases too easily, but I feel like you can't get around the fact that he's a very intriguing and amusing character. Plus, his banter with Watson feels surprisingly fresh and modern, which I didn't expect before reading the books. My favorite cases are the more low-stakes one, however, where Watson is more involved and they can really work their bromance. Silver Blaze is great because of that, since the two work in tandem so wel.

18 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

You can't even pretend that you hate Oboro.  You and I both know this.

Shit, he's right!

Quote

As stupid as the scene on top of the castle was...

Do you know why this scene was so dumb? Because it's the defining moment of the entire plot, and it's less than three minutes long and is so incredibly contrived that I'm surprised they didn't find a better way of executing this. At no point does Alm come across as unreasonable, but Celica - the chick who's supposed to rule the kingdom and feels like she has a duty to her people - suggests talking to Rudolf when his forces are still occupying half of Zofia. She then gets angry at Alm for rightfully pointing fingers at the last king, whom Celica hates, and she gets so upset that she storms off immediately, resolving absolutely nothing. 

Aside from how contrived the script is here, the problem is twofold: Alm being portrayed as being 100% as always, and Celica coming across as a loon. Why are we supposed to think it's a good thing Celica becomes queen when she doesn't care that her kingdom is being occupied? 

40 minutes ago, Bowbow said:

People who write her off as just pink Eirika or generic dumb/naive anime princess are being extremely disingenuous.

I'm really not. She really does blend together with a bunch of other characters, chiefly anime ones, and I find that she does not stick out in any real positive way. 

Take Elincia, who's a much better written character. In Radiant Dawn, we're shown that she's got a very tough time holding Crimea together and she has a damn breakdown because of it, yet soldiers on - she does not give in to Ludveck, but fights tooth and nail because she believes herself to be right. Celica goes along with a nutjob who marvels over how easy it is to manipulate her.

40 minutes ago, Bowbow said:

She's bold, confident, has her own set of morals

She is? Last I checked, her excuse for becoming a damsel was because of a lack of confidence and belief in mankind's strength.

40 minutes ago, Bowbow said:

is willing and able to make sacrifices for the greater good at the cost of her own happiness.

That would've been a good point, if her sacrifices in chapter four and five had made even one iota of sense. They do not.

40 minutes ago, Bowbow said:

it's something that people who criticize her in act 4 don't understand.

We do. We just don't buy her actions and behavior.

Edited by Thane

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2 minutes ago, Thane said:

Do you know why this scene was so dumb? Because it's the defining moment of the entire plot, and it's less than three minutes long and is so incredibly contrived that I'm surprised they didn't find a better way of executing this. At no point does Alm come across as unreasonable, but Celica - the chick who's supposed to rule the kingdom and feels like she has a duty to her people - suggests talking to Rudolf when his forces are still occupying half of Zofia. She then gets angry at Alm for rightfully pointing fingers at the last king, whom Celica hates, and she gets so upset that she storms off immediately, resolving absolutely nothing. 

Aside from how contrived the script is here, the problem is twofold: Alm being portrayed as being 100% as always, and Celica coming across as a loon. Why are we supposed to think it's a good thing Celica becomes queen when she doesn't care that her kingdom is being occupied?

Celica doesn't hate her father. She says that she does early on, but the ending shows that this is not the case. Also, Alm was wrong in saying that Lima caused the war. Lima should have given food to Rigel during the famine, but to blame the entire war on him is simplistic. It's like saying that WWI was fought only over nationalism. In fact, Alm is proven completely wrong later on when it is revealed that Rudolf started the war to bring an end to the Age of Gods. Also, I think Celica was also worried that Alm was putting himself in too great of danger, a fear complemented by her dream at the beginning of Act 2. When she asks him why he's making himself a target even though he's not a royal, she is influenced by that fact that she was almost killed for being royalty herself; this is furthered by the fact that her father and brother (to her knowledge) were also murdered for their station of birth.

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5 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

Celica doesn't hate her father. She says that she does early on, but the ending shows that this is not the case.

Really? This is news to me. Could you show me where this is said, please? 

5 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

Also, Alm was wrong in saying that Lima caused the war. Lima should have given food to Rigel during the famine, but to blame the entire war on him is simplistic

He says nothing of the sort. He says that this conflict is Lima's fault, but he never once says Zofia should've just given in to Rigelian demands. Lima was a shit ruler, as confirmed by many characters.

5 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

In fact, Alm is proven completely wrong later on when it is revealed that Rudolf started the war to bring an end to the Age of Gods.

Another huge writing issue. This does not mean Alm is wrong, however, as Lima's handling of the situation could be all the excuse Rudolf needed. Alm could also refer to the simple fact that Lima didn't manage to actually do anything about the Rigelians as they charged into Zofia, which would be another valid point.

5 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

Also, I think Celica was also worried that Alm was putting himself in too great of danger, a fear complemented by her dream at the beginning of Act 2.

For sure. However, this is a shit way of showing it. Look, I get that they're emotional teenagers and all that good stuff, but the way Celica handles that confrontation is absolutely awful, and it shows the writers had a hard time making Alm be a saint and Celica have a point at the same time. 

Also, that dream is one giant red herring. I wonder why that's never addressed in the game.

Edited by Thane

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1 minute ago, Thane said:

Really? This is news to me. Could you show me where this is said, please? 

In the epilogue she says, "Please don’t misunderstand. I don’t bear him any grudge. Not now. I just think he was a very sad man. Perhaps if I’d been there with him, I might have helped him change. If I have any regrets, it’s that."

 

I suppose that could mean she got over her hatred for her father, but I interpreted it to mean that she merely got over her anger at him and never truly hated him. After all, he is still her family, so I could understand why she might be upset why someone else would criticize him.

 

4 minutes ago, Thane said:

He says nothing of the sort. He says that this conflict is Lima's fault, but he never once says Zofia should've just given in to Rigelian demands. Lima was a shit ruler, as confirmed by many characters.

He says, "Do you think I WANTED this fight? This all started because Lima IV went and angered the empire. If you wish to point fingers, point them at the ruler who failed his people. It’s his fault we’re in this mess."

 

I interpreted this to mean that Alm blames Lima for not giving food to Rigel during the famine. Lima was a poor ruler, but it's not fair to completely blame him for Rigel invading.

 

8 minutes ago, Thane said:

Another huge writing issue. This does not mean Alm is wrong, however, as Lima's handling of the situation could be all the excuse Rudolf needed.

Why is this a writing issue? You could be right that Lima's handling of the situation served as Rudolf's excuse, but he was going to invade anyways.

 

10 minutes ago, Thane said:

For sure. However, this is a shit way of showing it. Look, I get that they're emotional teenagers and all that good stuff, but the way Celica handles that confrontation is absolutely awful, and it shows the writers had a hard time making Alm be a saint and Celica have a point at the same time.

I agree with you here. I thought that Celica was being completely unfair the first time I saw that scene. It could have been written better.

 

11 minutes ago, Thane said:

Also, that dream is one giant red herring. I wonder why that's never addressed in the game.

She mentions it in Act 5, but, yeah, it's never referenced again outside of that. In my headcanon, Jedah caused the dream to lure Celica away from Novis, but that's not really supported by anything in the game.

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Alm

Spoiler

Alm is okay. Kinda like Ike if Ike was a more sociable person. He's severely helped by the phoenix wright mode of examining objects. Among the bad "Urn" puns, there's an extremely down to earth and practical thinker. Alm is a refreshing viewpoint, but I don't find his journey very nuanced, especially in the end. The only anger he feels at Mycen is expressed faintly in thier C support conversation. Apparently Alm just needed a bit of time before forgiving the his father and foster grandfather that throw him into his destiny with little regard for his safety or emotional stability. I also hate Alm's occasional dialogue about Rigel seeming familiar or not being able to hate Rudolf "for some reason". I know that's just dumb schlock added in by writers having too much fun with foreshadowing, but it reflects poorly on Alm's character as he fails to piece together his lineage. He was able to piece together who Celica was the moment a concrete piece of evidence appears, so he's not the dumbest lord in the series.

Celica

Spoiler

Not enough done with her. I've theorized that her Act 2 finale scene would make a lot more sense if she was aware of Alm being Rudolf's kid. It's a pretty poorly kept secret if Zofian chancellor Desaix knew, and not unlikely that Mycen or Nomah told Celica once she was old enough, as Alm was still on her mind. Then her anger at Alm would be better focused on her desire to not see him kill or be killed by his father like in her nightmare sequence. Furthermore, I find there was a missed opportunity to inject her sense of faith into her actions. Celica does a lot of dumb things in the game's final acts, but you could write these actions as tragic folly if you focus on her general depression and faith in Mila. Celica's journey is nothing but Pirates, Grieth's thugs, terrors, Rigel assassins, and Duma faithful, the who's who of the worst people you could come across in Valentia. Look at Celica trying to save the world and everybody she comes across just want to kill her. I'm certain her trials would inform Celica's belief that that the gods are necessary, and that humans are incapable of ruling themselves - perfect counterpoint to Alm's faith in men that he ironically shares with Rudolf. It would also help communicate why she locks herself out from her trusted friends, she's suffering from depression.

 

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15 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

In the epilogue she says, "Please don’t misunderstand. I don’t bear him any grudge. Not now. I just think he was a very sad man. Perhaps if I’d been there with him, I might have helped him change. If I have any regrets, it’s that.

I suppose that could mean she got over her hatred for her father, but I interpreted it to mean that she merely got over her anger at him and never truly hated him. After all, he is still her family, so I could understand why she might be upset why someone else would criticize him.

I don't take that as her never having hated him. Like you say, it's more getting over her anger. She should most certainly not defend him, because like she says, he was a very sad man, and as many others point out, a bad ruler.

15 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

He says, "Do you think I WANTED this fight? This all started because Lima IV went and angered the empire. If you wish to point fingers, point them at the ruler who failed his people. It’s his fault we’re in this mess."

I interpreted this to mean that Alm blames Lima for not giving food to Rigel during the famine. Lima was a poor ruler, but it's not fair to completely blame him for Rigel invading.

I must've missed the first part, so that's fair for sure. However, this does not change the fact that Celica's reaction is completely uncalled for. It also does not change the fact that Alm is right: Rigel is there and won't leave peacefully.

15 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

Why is this a writing issue? You could be right that Lima's handling of the situation served as Rudolf's excuse, but he was going to invade anyways.

I was referring to Rudolf's nonsensical war for continental peace. It didn't work in Conquest, and it doesn't work here. Rudolf has no right to be portrayed as a sympathetic person after screwing over Berkut and causing a massive war.

I did edit my post since, yes, while Rudolf would invade, Alm could simply be referring to how Lima handled the invasion, too, which is why he's there in the first place. 

15 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

She mentions it in Act 5, but, yeah, it's never referenced again outside of that. In my headcanon, Jedah caused the dream to lure Celica away from Novis, but that's not really supported by anything in the game.

It's so weird, because it shows Rudolf going all super Saiyajin with Duma juice, but nothing like that ever happens in the main game. I guess it was meant to show what would happen if Celica didn't do anything, or something? But that's all guesswork. I've thought about Jedah, too, but like you say, it's not supported by the game.

Edited by Thane

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I noticed something in the OP that I previously forgot to address, but I updated it with something for clarification:

The two random playable units each day will consist of 1 unit from Alm's army and 1 unit from Celica's army, so there will not be a day where it will be two units from a single side. Just wanted to get that out of the way for those that were curious about it.

Anyway, I'll give my thoughts on Alm and Celica now.

Alm:

Though not one of my favorite characters, I do like Alm. He can be quite the dorky guy as shown whenever he checks something in a castle, fort, and village, and I admire his resolve of wanting to learn more about the outside world and not just live in a far-out village for the rest of his life. He has quite the likable personality overall, but I do understand the criticisms regarding that he is too "perfect" or acts too saintly at parts of the game. I mean, I won't deny that him forgiving Fernand and Berkut later in the game despite the fact the two have constantly put him down at every turn does not sit well with me, especially the latter's case when taking certain story actions into account. His design doesn't stand out as much as other characters, but I think it looks good enough. He's a great unit too. That Double Lion skill is very clutch!

Celica:

I'm indifferent to her. She has her kind, playful, and sweet moments, and I do enjoy her interactions with other characters, especially with Mae and Conrad in her supports with them. However, her actions in Act 4 were off-putting to say the least. I wasn't the fan of how she didn't want to tell anyone about needing to sacrifice herself to save Valentia, nor was I fan how she was willingly able to trust Jedah like that.

She has quite a fantastic and gorgeous design, and I found her to be a pretty good unit. While I consider Alm more reliable due to his much higher Defense stats compared to Celica, she still proved to be a very effective mage in my playthrough. Giving her a Mage Ring only made her more deadly and a clutch unit use during the Duma Tower dungeon.

 

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18 minutes ago, Erureido said:

The two random playable units each day will consist of 1 unit from Alm's army and 1 unit from Celica's army, so there will not be a day where it will be two units from a single side. Just wanted to get that out of the way for those that were curious about it.

So does this mean we won't discuss the villains?

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1 hour ago, Thane said:

I don't take that as her never having hated him. Like you say, it's more getting over her anger. She should most certainly not defend him, because like she says, he was a very sad man, and as many others point out, a bad ruler.

I agree with you to some extent, but I still think that it's at least understandable that she would want to defend her father, even if he was a terrible ruler and father. We may just have different perspectives on this though.

 

1 hour ago, Thane said:

I must've missed the first part, so that's fair for sure. However, this does not change the fact that Celica's reaction is completely uncalled for. It also does not change the fact that Alm is right: Rigel is there and won't leave peacefully.

I understand what you mean, but I don't think Celica's reaction is completely uncalled for because she wanted to defend her father and was worried for Alm's safety. I agree that Alm was right that Rigel is there and won't leave peacefully, but I feel that Celica hoping to resolve the issue peacefully plays into Celica representing Mila's ideals, albeit to an extreme degree. I also take issue with how easy Alm seems to think that defeating Rigel will be. When asked at the end of Act 1 if the Deliverance should play it safe or go on the offensive, he only thinks about it for a couple of seconds before deciding to go on the attack. He was very inexperienced at the time and had never even seen a Rigelian outside of Mycen up to that point. He also seemed to think that the Deliverance simply needed to drive Rigel back to the border and never considered that Rigel would continue fighting. Gray even points this out in his conversation with Tobin after Alm's speech.

 

1 hour ago, Thane said:

I was referring to Rudolf's nonsensical war for continental peace. It didn't work in Conquest, and it doesn't work here. Rudolf has no right to be portrayed as a sympathetic person after screwing over Berkut and causing a massive war.

Oh, I see what you mean now. Yeah, that was weird how suddenly the game tried to portray Rudolf as perfectly justified. If it was at least portrayed as gray, I could get behind it more.

 

1 hour ago, Thane said:

I did edit my post since, yes, while Rudolf would invade, Alm could simply be referring to how Lima handled the invasion, too, which is why he's there in the first place.

I don't think Alm was referring to how Lima handled the invasion because he blamed Lima for causing the war, and the Rigelians invading would have marked the start. If that is what he meant, however, then I would feel Alm is more justified in his accusation.

 

1 hour ago, Thane said:

It's so weird, because it shows Rudolf going all super Saiyajin with Duma juice, but nothing like that ever happens in the main game. I guess it was meant to show what would happen if Celica didn't do anything, or something? But that's all guesswork. I've thought about Jedah, too, but like you say, it's not supported by the game.

Yeah, I feel like that could have been executed much better. What if it was a recurring dream that Celica had throughout the story?

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Alm is pretty meh. I do think he's favored by the plot a bit too much and they do kind of make him husbando bait the same way Chrom is. On the other hand, I do like how some characters like Tobin, Celica, and Clive are all willing to question him without being treated as bad people. Furthermore, I find it funny how despite being a secret prince, he comes across as a more convincing commoner than Ike, since he actually talks about things that commoners would, like farming, and has some idea on what's going on in the world.

Celica rocks and people like @Thane are the epitome of how fans just say they want flawed characters but when they actually get them, they bitch and moan incessantly. Her 'stupidity' is greatly exaggerated and a demonstration of people's poor reading comprehension, since she never actually trusts Jedah but only goes along with it at the last minute because she legit feels she has no choice (and for good reasons honestly).

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45 minutes ago, Thane said:

@CriticalMiss Going to have to respond to your post later; it's getting late and I've got a few tough days ahead of me. I apologize!

No worries. Take all the time you need. I might be busy over the next few days too, so I also might have a hard time responding.

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