Banner: Sacred Memories

[Hawk King]

5 hours ago, Usana said:

Really. Go ahead and tell me me how to use a unit that goes from 28 to 24 atk thanks to a bane. It just depends on what you get dropped to and what you were going to use the unit for/what the other stats are. So for example, +SPD/-ATK Setsuna. With an Attack refined Bow she would have 37 ATK and 40 SPD for offense. With 39/22/23 defenses she isn't exactly sturdy even with a guard bow.  Having 4 extra attack at that range can be a huge difference. Sword Lyn is in a better spot due to better defenses and a prf weapon, but having 24 base attack still hurts her. A quick run on a the 700-710 tally list seems to indicate that a neutral ATK scores nearly TWICE as many wins from a single initiation as a -ATK(assuming sol katti is in effect). I dunno, I would say that hurts. Just a little. But Lyn is a bit of an extreme case due to how Sol Katti works. Still my point is if you end up with 25 or less atk after the bane you had best hope you have something other than hitting things going for you. Like Pain+ or being so tanky it doesn't matter that your only source of damage is your special.

Now on someone like Myrrh. That is a fair bit less noticeable. Not only does her weapon carry the equivalent of a full ATK refine unlike any refinable weapon and only drop to 30 base, but she also has solid defenses to enable her to rely on specials to blast foes into the ground.

No one from this banner will care much. Both mages can Blade their way out of an ATK bane(Though L'Arachel would appreciate at least getting some speed out of it I would think) and Myrrh is effectively a 2 move flying armor unit(currently the only non-armor unit with higher BST than an armor unit, she beats all the ranged armors by 2 points and has 1 less than folks like Hector) and as such kinda just laughs at banes in general. Though losing 4 defense really isn't pleasant and may prompt you to do a lightning build.

A good way to overcome abysmally low Atk, is to just go with TA3 and breaker skills and have those characters focus on taking out specific enemies. Setsuna being colorless, however, doesn't let her do this and she is one of the few characters that is completely screwed by -Atk since neither of her defenses are high enough for big damage from specials.

Most characters with terrible Atk will have at least one of their defense stats over 30 though.

Now if a character wants a brave build, -Atk will completely shut the door on that plan as they exclusively want +Atk.

11 hours ago, Clogon said:

For Myrrh, I actually don't mind it! Except that her Boon is HP. If it was -ATK/+DEF, I would be a very happy camper.

Overall, -ATK as a bane has very nice uses depending on char and boon. For my glass cannon -Blade mages, I STRICTLY prefer -ATK/+SPD. The only time I dread -ATK is on low ATK chars like Merric...

Myrrh is an absolute beast. The only thing -Atk on her would do is prevent her from running Heavy Blade. I completely agree with you about the -Blade tome mages. When I first got my Summer Corrin, I was pretty upset she was -Atk, but after giving her a Blarblade+ and using her with emblem buffs, I see that it makes no difference in what she can kill. Surprisingly she always seems to be able to take a hit because of it as well.

[Vaximillian]

4.25% now. My last hope is for the tempest. Will it be the repeat of Celica’s tempest banner, Holy War banner, or Lucina’s tempest banner?
Time will tell.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Vaximillian

[Hawk King]

1 hour ago, Vaximillian said:

4.25% now. My last hope is for the tempest. Will it be the repeat of Celica’s tempest banner, Holy War banner, or Lucina’s tempest banner?
Time will tell.

I know that feeling. I got up to 4% or higher 3 times on this banner. Seliph and 2 fucking Greys came to pity break me. Still looking for Eirika.

[NoirCore]

You know, I was originally iffy against Brave Eirika, but after realizing we're getting two free new SS units and have a chance to get two more new ones, I think Eirika is excusable in this time of three-person banners.

[bottlegnomes]

22 hours ago, NoirCore said:

You know, I was originally iffy against Brave Eirika, but after realizing we're getting two free new SS units and have a chance to get two more new ones, I think Eirika is excusable in this time of three-person banners.

Would've preferred it be like Ewan or Lute, but yeah. Especially after pulling her, she's fantastic, her art is quite nice, and Eirika is certainly far from the worst character they could've repeated. Guess I can finally kiss the prospect of building Leo goodbye. She comes fairly well built. Obviously she wants the usual suspects, buff C slot, reposition, special, but Gleipnir is actually pretty freaking good, and while a blade tome is probably better, I'm not sure it's enough better to really need to prioritize it.

Plus this means that someday they might make a new Palla who's amazing.

Still would trade her for a Myrrh, but I might pull a little more toward the end of the banner.

Edit: Wow I'm stupid and forgot Lute was in the game.

Edited January 28, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[shadowofchaos]

20 hours ago, Usana said:

Really. Go ahead and tell me me how to use a unit that goes from 28 to 24 atk thanks to a bane. It just depends on what you get dropped to and what you were going to use the unit for/what the other stats are. So for example, +SPD/-ATK Setsuna. With an Attack refined Bow she would have 37 ATK and 40 SPD for offense. With 39/22/23 defenses she isn't exactly sturdy even with a guard bow.  Having 4 extra attack at that range can be a huge difference. Sword Lyn is in a better spot due to better defenses and a prf weapon, but having 24 base attack still hurts her. A quick run on a the 700-710 tally list seems to indicate that a neutral ATK scores nearly TWICE as many wins from a single initiation as a -ATK(assuming sol katti is in effect). I dunno, I would say that hurts. Just a little. But Lyn is a bit of an extreme case due to how Sol Katti works. Still my point is if you end up with 25 or less atk after the bane you had best hope you have something other than hitting things going for you. Like Pain+ or being so tanky it doesn't matter that your only source of damage is your special.

Now on someone like Myrrh. That is a fair bit less noticeable. Not only does her weapon carry the equivalent of a full ATK refine unlike any refinable weapon and only drop to 30 base, but she also has solid defenses to enable her to rely on specials to blast foes into the ground.

No one from this banner will care much. Both mages can Blade their way out of an ATK bane(Though L'Arachel would appreciate at least getting some speed out of it I would think) and Myrrh is effectively a 2 move flying armor unit(currently the only non-armor unit with higher BST than an armor unit, she beats all the ranged armors by 2 points and has 1 less than folks like Hector) and as such kinda just laughs at banes in general. Though losing 4 defense really isn't pleasant and may prompt you to do a lightning build.

Hi.

This game is mostly single player. And I have been using a -ATK Rein for most of my account lifetime. So yes, I can say that for someone like me, an -ATK bane is *NOTHING* that I panic about, ever. There is no competitive aspect of this game that is actually raw PvP.

So your frustration with -ATK is proportionately equal to how much you care about Arena.

The beauty of unit variety with natures is how willing people are to be creative or compromise about caring about "ZOMG IT'S NOT OPTIMAL IT IS THE END OF THE WORLD"

Each person playing this game has their own individual goals.

My personal view is that if you're willing to say that a unit has lost their entire value over a bane says you weren't flexible enough to begin with to play Japanese Gacha games in the first place.

A -ATK bane detriment is *NEVER* as bad as to the amount of drama and temper tantrums people seem to showcase when they get one in this community.

The question is, how creative are you to get past it? Are you going to give up your sacred seal slot for an ATK+3? Are you going to overcome it with positioning? Are you going to overcome it with other units comphensating for it?

Edited January 28, 2018 by shadowofchaos

[bottlegnomes]

@shadowofchaos Don't get me wrong, -atk is hardly the end of the world (unlike -spd), but it's still pretty disappointing. I got lucky enough to pull Rhajat on my free summon on her banner, but she was -atk/+def. She's still great—+def along with innate distant defense makes her actually semi-decent at baiting—and she might actually be my most used green mage since I'm too lazy to bother building either her or Nino beyond their base kits, but I still find myself wishing she had a little extra punch to her attacks a decent amount.

[shadowofchaos]

8 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

@shadowofchaos Don't get me wrong, -atk is hardly the end of the world (unlike -spd), but it's still pretty disappointing.

I'm not debating that it's disappointing.

But with how often walls of text saying "Really? Tell me how to use a unit..." like it's some unusable piece of garbage?

[bottlegnomes]

4 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

I'm not debating that it's disappointing.

But with how often walls of text saying "Really? Tell me how to use a unit..." like it's some unusable piece of garbage?

Ah, maybe I haven't been active enough to really see that, but yeah, unless you're top of tier 20 in arena, I'd highly doubt IVs really make or break a unit.

[eclipse]

16 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

I'm not debating that it's disappointing.

But with how often walls of text saying "Really? Tell me how to use a unit..." like it's some unusable piece of garbage?

I can sort-of understand the sentiment.  But that was way back when units didn't have such overkill statlines.  Let's take two of my -Atk units that I use for similar purposes - Hector and Zelgius.

In Hector's case, I've missed several counter-kills due to -Atk.  It's frustrating, and it's cost me an Arena run or two (because Wings of Mercy), but it wasn't the end of the world.  Hector's boon is Speed - useless at first glance, but damn good defense-wise.  The number of units that fail to double him has saved me from even more disasters.

Zelgius doesn't care about -Atk because his opponent dies the minute he activates Luna.  He's also physically bulkier than Hector due to a defense boon, and his naturally good speed keeps him from being doubled by a bunch of things that would've ruined Hector's day.

It feels like later units aren't as adversely affected by -Atk, unless they're Brave glass cannons.  Or L'Arachel, since her stat line is a little shaky.

[shadowofchaos]

19 minutes ago, eclipse said:

In Hector's case, I've missed several counter-kills due to -Atk.  It's frustrating, and it's cost me an Arena run or two (because Wings of Mercy), but it wasn't the end of the world.  Hector's boon is Speed - useless at first glance, but damn good defense-wise.  The number of units that fail to double him has saved me from even more disasters.

My problem with the sentiments is that when people look up stuff (ala gamepress) instead of trying by experience they form this crowd mentality that anything outside of optimal is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE.

Your Hector would have been treated as the end of the world sacrificed to Distant Counter someone faster than you can say "nature, not IV".

Edited January 28, 2018 by shadowofchaos

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, shadowofchaos said:

My problem with the sentiments is that when people look up stuff (ala gamepress) instead of trying by experience they form this crowd mentality that anything outside of optimal is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE.

Your Hector would have been treated as the end of the world sacrificed to Distant Counter someone faster than you can say "this unit is garbage".

He's my one and only.  I'm going to use whoever I get.  If I can't figure out how to make a unit useful, that's on me as a player.

Speaking of L'Arachel, I would've used her even if she was -Atk.  Luckily, she was -HP. . .it's scary, but I'll manage.

[bottlegnomes]

I feel like skill power inflation, inheritance, and the refinery have really gone a long way in making non-optimal IVs more easily managed. Now Hector can, with large but reasonable investment, run slaying axe+def, QR, and bonfire to have 47 attack on the first hit and 67 (68?) on the second. Before inheritance, Hector had to settle for two hits of 49 attack, which while not terrible wasn't ideal, and before the refinery, that build was possible, but a lot harder to pull off since it meant either actually pulling two Amelias or one that was worse than Hector and you being willing to sack your only copy of another very good unit. Yeah, a killer axe+ could've been similar, but that would've meant 44 attack, which is getting into the realm of okay, and no +def refine meant capping out at 62 (63?) on the follow-up. After the refinery, you need 20K-40K feathers and a while to grind SP and coins.

Edited January 28, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Clogon]

6 hours ago, shadowofchaos said:

The question is, how creative are you to get past it? Are you going to give up your sacred seal slot for an ATK+3? Are you going to overcome it with positioning? Are you going to overcome it with other units comphensating for it?

Non-mage -ATK Units that have 25 or lower Neutral ATK are unsalvagable for offensive use without MAJOR investments. It is better to invest into other units and get a better return. Lets look at a -ATK/+DEF Felicia for example. The extra def won't help her survive any optimized physical threats but the -ATK drops her down to 20 ATK. Even with a Kitty Paddle and + ATK seal, she can't even ORKO a neutral Delthea, the most fragile of mage glasscannons. This means that she won't be able to reliably do her job as a mage killer, especially in Inferno or Arena where you fight enemies with boosted stats.

Can you invest even more into said Felicia to make her usable? Sure but as an F2P with very limited resources, why would anyone do something so inefficient? You can just use the -ATK/+DEF H!Sakura instead. A -ATK Reinhardt can still delete any reds and fulfill his role with little to no investment. This isn't the case with every unit.

Sacred coins don't come cheap. SI fodder isn't readily available. Creativity is one thing. But how can you be creative if you have no resources? Investing into +ATK seal means more than just sacrificing a Seal slot. It also means using 150 coins on a 120 SP seal instead of a 240 SP seal. This translaes to 1~2 point difference in the unit's arena score (there are many 120sp seals that only require 50 Sacred Coins) and further limit a player's ability to collect resources.

If people had unlimited resources, -ATK wouldn't mean much at all. I deal with -ATK units just fine but this is because I have the funds to do so. It greatly restricts what you can do with them which, for the casual F2P, is further compounded by their limited resources. 

 

____________

On topic:

Yay I finally pulled new Eirika! She is -ATK/+Res which means Raublade+! Kinda wish she was +SPD but at least I got one, for 200 orbs... I am way over budget this month (had to spend $300 to for a plane ticket to get my younger brother home).

Edited January 28, 2018 by Clogon

[Poimagic]

I’m happy. I got a +atk/-hp Myrrh. Seriously, all of my recent 5 stars are +atk. Airzura, NY!Takumi, Katrina, and now Myrrh.

[Hawk King]

Spent 160 more orbs going for New Eirika and walked away with 2 more Myrrhs, 1 Hector, and 1 Mist LOL. Didn't even get a 5* red unit. I'm not willing to just snipe for red because I eventually want a +10 Myrrh and it seems my decision was a good one. Hector broke yet another pity % of over 4%, then a Myrrh came on the next set, and then Myrrh came not too long after and Mist came with the 2nd Myrrh. That's when I decided to take another break with summoning.

[Usana]

I am putting the tangential bits in spoilers since I tend to write walls of text and I figure some folks may not be interested in the tangential discussion.

So my orbs today netted me a 1 colorless, 2 red, 2 blue session. I pulled on the red and Eirika pops up. The regular Eirika. At 4*. Who I already have a 4*+10 of. Oh well. She has pivot, drag back, and hone speed. So not useless for foddering. Though my barracks are filling up with her. I currently have the +10 4*, 2 5*, and 3 non-merged 4*'s of her. Maybe I shouldn't have merged that earlier 5* down so that she could have her weapon. I have pulled 3 total 5*'s of her and counting the ones I foddered off probably nearly 20 4*'s. And so many sessions in this banner are all red for me, so I think new Eirika is trying to get in on it as well. I think I need to get a restraining order. Hey Ephraim come over here and help me get your sister under control! Yeah, I have never pulled an Ephraim so I am on my own for now. And yes I am kinda regretting merging down that -ATK/+HP pity breaker so that the +9 could become +10 and have her signature weapon.

@Hawk King

Spoiler

Yeah I included Set in that post purely because I know many low attack units who are colored can try a Gem build. Though I tend to HATE gem weapons. Crippling overspecialization is a pet peeve of mine in games. That said the defense boost TA or gem gives is nothing to shrug at since it can help salvage a unit without a good defense or offense. I just don't like them. Still while Gem units will win duels against their colored foes, they may not do it quickly. And that can cause problems particularly on infernal maps(in AA I haven't seen much issue, but I have also never tried to use a -ATK Fir before either).

And you are going to make me have eyes greener than Myrrh's when her special activates! Do you have a boon/bane combo you are happy with yet? I don't recall if you mentioned such yet.
@shadowofchaos

Spoiler

 

Maybe the text was too long and you missed it, but I am referring to specific units(generally those with less than 30 atk before the bane is applied and lack the defenses to special tank) and am not saying OMG ATK BANE MAKE ANY UNIT USELESS ALWAYS. A -ATK Setsuna for example(lets assume her boon is spd to get more doubles). Since I don't care much for AA or Arena and am mostly focused on Infernal Clearing let us see how she does against the units in Lyon's Infernal GHB. 24 Base, +12 from weapon, +1 from refinement, +6 from Death Blow, and +3 from seal. She reaches a whole 46 attack on initiation. With 1.5 extra that is 69. The red flier has 39 defense and 57 HP. So YAY she can just barely kill it. However, since Deathblow 3 is kinda hard to get(I basically have no such fodder half the time even with spending money on this game) let us assume ATK+3 now. So 43 becomes 64.  7 HP short. That can be fixed by a hone though. BTW she needs the atk refine on her weapon to kill the lance flier even with a hone, that or a special proc, which would pretty much require the slaying bow.

But what about against the non-fliers? Without a hone attack the two armors actually zero out her damage, so lets assume a hone attack, because you most likely will have that. The bow Cavalier survives, the manaketes survive, the physical cavs survive, the blue mage survives, the mage cav dies. Well since she can double lets just assuming she has slaying bow + moonbow combo. The blue mage lives, manaketes live, the bow cavalier lives, the physical cavs live. What if she were attack neutral? That would be 51 vs 47 when having a hone. The Blue Mage dies, the Manaketes live, the Bow cav dies, The sword cav dies, the lance cav survives with 3HP. Frankly that Bow Cav is a very important difference for me. Blue mage is also a nice addition to the kill list. An Attack Boon would net you the other Physical cav. The manaketes are just tough cookies. So yeah I would say -ATK makes a big difference for Setsuna and I almost certainly woudn't build a -ATK Setsuna. I would just use her for Guard Bow, Bow Breaker, or Reciprocal Aid fodder(probably a better source for that though).

Of course this is just one map, and my math could be off. But Infernal can be a pain in the arse to clear even without handicapping a low attack hero with an attack bane. But it does depend a lot on the hero. And if there is a bane that really hurts the unit's ability to contribute it may not be ATK. And even if it hurts one build some other builds may still be possible or even opened up by your boon/bane combo. My +DEF/-ATK Charlotte for example. Yeah I was hoping to run a CHARLOTTE SMASH build, but 46/33/32/28/19 is pretty tanky. Particularly when you get +4 from refinement. I threw a spare Fjorm at her so when near an ally Charlotte has 51/52/32/37/19 without counting seals or ally spurs/etc. That is pretty nice(and since I just left her with First Bite, she can have 42 defense if I used her to attack something). But Charlotte also doesn't have sub 30 attack before the bane is applied. Notice that IS hasn't really released any such units in a while. Or if the unit does have sub 30 attack before banes they have something else going for them like being a dancer. I think Mathilda is the most recent hero under 30 attack that doesn't dance. Actually if I didn't already spend enough time I might see what a -ATK Mathilda does in Infernal maps. I kinda shudder to even think of that. Particularly since I don't swim in hectors for DC.

 

 

Spoiler

Part of what is causing me to change my mind on inflated BST is the bane issue. At first I was rather miffed since older characters weren't being updated to match the new BST tiers, but then I started to realize it means far less 'this character becomes significantly less useful with a particular bane'. Which makes me much happier about summoning in general.

 

[Hawk King]

1 hour ago, Usana said:

And you are going to make me have eyes greener than Myrrh's when her special activates! Do you have a boon/bane combo you are happy with yet? I don't recall if you mentioned such yet.

I've gotten 4 total. My 1st one was +Atk/-Spd. Quick Riposte 3 with Heavy Blade seal is quite nice.

The only boon/bane I might want more would be +Def/-Spd. But then I wouldn't run Heavy Blade so idk...

 

At least most if not all of the Low Atk units are available at 3* and 4*  so you will eventually get one that isn't -Atk. I don't worry about stuff like that though. If I get a boon/bane that I like on a character I will build them. If I don't get something that I'm willing to work with I just wait for a better one to come along.

I have been pity broken by a 5* Caeda 6 or 7 times none with +Atk. After the 4th time, I decided to promote a 4* with +Atk/-HP and merge all of my 5*s onto that one. Now at +7 she is looking very promising with her new weapon coming with the next update. I have plenty of 4*s just waiting to be promoted so she can become +10.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Hawk King

[shadowofchaos]

7 hours ago, Clogon said:

Non-mage -ATK Units that have 25 or lower Neutral ATK are unsalvagable for offensive use without MAJOR investments.

What context are we defining this as?

Strictly Tier 20 Arena or other areas of the game?

7 hours ago, Clogon said:

 But how can you be creative if you have no resources? Investing into +ATK seal means more than just sacrificing a Seal slot. It also means using 150 coins on a 120 SP seal instead of a 240 SP seal. This translaes to 1~2 point difference in the unit's arena score (there are many 120sp seals that only require 50 Sacred Coins) and further limit a player's ability to collect resources.

"No resources as F2P"?

This is strictly defined as how fast you use your resources.

I have been F2P for the past 4 months (due to being handed an unfair $3000 bed bug exterminator bill, in addition to the $2000+ we had to invest moving out into a new home) and have been consuming all of the content (such as Tier 18-19 Arena and all the quests) with the exception of 1 $20 purchase for my fiance to pull New Years Aqua and the $3.99 Burger King pack for both of us.

Same on my fiance's account.

People here who say "F2P have no resources" have no restraint and use their resources as soon as they have them have never played any other Japanese gacha games.

Just to put this in perspective:

Compared to all the gacha games out there, ESPECIALLY Japanese only ones: FEH gives upwards of 200+ free orbs a month. Japanese gacha games give *ONE* per week on daily login bonuses.

New maps give 5 per 2 weeks. And they don't have discount summons or pity rates. Pay up full 5 premium currency.

FEH gave out 278 in January. https://feheroes.gamepedia.com/Orb_Distribution

*TWO HUNDRED SEVENTY EIGHT FREE ORBS*

*THREE HUNDRED THIRTY FIVE FREE ORBS IN SEPT 2017*

This is not counting the ridiculous amount of feathers you can amass. 10 sacred coins per week + voting gauntlet? You're kidding if you're not getting at least 1 maxed seal per month.

The *ONLY* reason why I have such a low supply of Sacred Coins compared to her is I upgraded the Quick Riposte and Heavy Blade seal immediately to max. Both Belinda and I are content with Tier 17-19 just for the 4 instead of 3 orbs. And we do *FINE* with -ATK units everywhere. Her Brave Lyn. Her and my Reinhardt (granted, we pulled 4 star ones that are neutral attack and don't have to deal with that anymore).

My Myrrha.

My Tiki.

My Elincia.

And more, non-mages.

7 hours ago, Clogon said:

Non-mage -ATK Units that have 25 or lower Neutral ATK are unsalvagable for offensive use without MAJOR investments.

This statement is a misleading all-encompassing statement that only takes into account *ONE* playstyle and goal.

They are not "unsalvagable" by any means.

Edited January 28, 2018 by shadowofchaos

[Korath88]

7 hours ago, Clogon said:

Non-mage -ATK Units that have 25 or lower Neutral ATK are unsalvagable for offensive use without MAJOR investments. It is better to invest into other units and get a better return. Lets look at a -ATK/+DEF Felicia for example. The extra def won't help her survive any optimized physical threats but the -ATK drops her down to 20 ATK. Even with a Kitty Paddle and + ATK seal, she can't even ORKO a neutral Delthea, the most fragile of mage glasscannons. This means that she won't be able to reliably do her job as a mage killer, especially in Inferno or Arena where you fight enemies with boosted stats.

Can you invest even more into said Felicia to make her usable? Sure but as an F2P with very limited resources, why would anyone do something so inefficient? You can just use the -ATK/+DEF H!Sakura instead. A -ATK Reinhardt can still delete any reds and fulfill his role with little to no investment. This isn't the case with every unit.

Sacred coins don't come cheap. SI fodder isn't readily available. Creativity is one thing. But how can you be creative if you have no resources? Investing into +ATK seal means more than just sacrificing a Seal slot. It also means using 150 coins on a 120 SP seal instead of a 240 SP seal. This translaes to 1~2 point difference in the unit's arena score (there are many 120sp seals that only require 50 Sacred Coins) and further limit a player's ability to collect resources.

If people had unlimited resources, -ATK wouldn't mean much at all. I deal with -ATK units just fine but this is because I have the funds to do so. It greatly restricts what you can do with them which, for the casual F2P, is further compounded by their limited resources. 

I feel like the Felicia analogy is completely redundant as she's a free unit from the rotational maps, so everyone has a neutral natured one. Only an idiot would build a -Atk Felicia. Besides, it's not like there's any other sub-25 Atk physical unit that performs well in the arena anyways.

My -Atk Bike and Sigurd are doing just fine. Haven't missed any important KOs with them.

(this is also coming from the guy who fully upgraded all 4 Atk and Spd seals)

Edited January 28, 2018 by Korath88

[shadowofchaos]

Just a reminder:

The chance of pulling an optimal nature boon and bane combo is 4%, just assuming you get the pull.

Edited January 28, 2018 by shadowofchaos

[Usana]

47 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

My Myrrha.

My Tiki.

My Elincia.

And more, non-mages.

Myrrh just doesn't care about banes period thanks to a 167 BST. It may change her role but she has the points to absorb any bane and still kill stuff.

I would ask which Tiki, but both have enough attack to kill stuff even after a bane. Also they and Myrrh target Res which is a softer stat to hit in general.

Elincia gets a +3mt +3spd brave. It isn't even enough to really change her role.

I don't think you've yet to mention a hero where I think -ATK would be debilitating.

@Hawk King Yeah the +ATK and Heavy blade does indeed sound fun to play with.  +ATK and +DEF definitely want slightly different setups. I am curious though, are you preserving her RES for a particular reason? When running numbers I don't see much of a difference in matchups that way, so I would consider RES a safe dump stat for her. But it isn't like I have compared every possible RES targeting attack between the two. Plus it may be enough to let her take an extra hit from another unit too. Mine is still being built up so until I get her running through some content I am not sure how much a difference in tanking multiple units it will make.

You would be surprised at how long I sat with just one Setsuna. She started raining on me recently, but for ages I had to debate on whether a raven tome would want bowbreaker since I only got her once. Despite all the pulling for Bridal Cordelia I did way back when she was released. Or maybe you wouldn't be surprised since you probably have some such stories yourself. But yeah I was just using Setsuna as an example since she is a pretty clear one and I don't have to worry about TA numbers. I almost always mess up when calculating TA. Plus I don't like playing with TA characters most of the time so such numbers are low on my consideration list.

[shadowofchaos]

27 minutes ago, Usana said:

I don't think you've yet to mention a hero where I think -ATK would be debilitating.

Considering my investment in different parts of the game, neither have you. Nor would you ever.

I have no interest in Tier 20. Again, what is your investment? Are you a F2P that intends to go up against whaled teams? That, again changes your perspective on how -ATK units are to you.

But again, calling them "UNUSABLE" in a single context is a bit narrow minded.

I return to my previous statement:

"A -ATK bane is never as bad as people make it out to be."

I am not debating tiers. I am not debating unit usability in specifically optimal means a la Tier 20.

The problem with gacha mentality for the western communities is that this is their first experience with gacha games. Optimization with what you have or using what non-optimal units you have is what you learn to deal with. Expecting a good boon *OR* a not abysmal bane is 20%. Expectation of that is unrealistic at best.

The fact that mkv can enjoy all of the content of the game (with the exception of higher tier arena) without EVER SUMMONING ONCE says that you can enjoy the game without optimizing to the nth degree.

 

The question is how content are you with what you have? Answer that honestly.

I may want Micaiah. I may want Zelgius. I may want to roll for Takumi... but if you never had the chance to summon or use feathers again in this game, how satisfied would you be?

Edited January 28, 2018 by shadowofchaos

[Usana]

I do believe I just went through a pretty big post where I mathed out Setsuna's negative atk for an infernal map. -ATK took a significant number of units off her KO list. Team comp would depend on if you could still clear it or not, but it certainly makes a solid impact on team contribution from her. Also the earlier Mentioned Regular Lyn getting her kill count effectively cut in half according to the simulator. Sims aren't as useful as getting a KO list for an infernal map, but still can help show a general idea. I don't care specifically about any individual mode. But leaving maps uncompleted bothers me more than a little so Infernal Clearing is definitely a consideration.

I prefer numbers. Whether that is simulator numbers, as flawed as they can be, or comparative lists for Infernal maps/etc doesn't matter much. KO's aren't the only thing that matters. The ability to take a hit and not die matters too. So you need a survival list and a ko list for the best results. I got tired or mathing everything and didn't do a Setsuna Infernal face tanking list since I normally try to avoid face tanking with archers, but her speed and decent HP means she should survive a single hit. I'd hope anyways. The only thing I actually checked was if she would be killed on counter for the bow cav, mage cav, and blue mage). Even dancers don't get to avoid this completely since it isn't uncommon to require them to soak a hit here or there.

 

Edit- apparently you made edits while I was making this post

"but if you never had the chance to summon or use feathers again in this game, how satisfied would you be? "

Probably not at all. Building up new units or utilizing new builds is the whole point of the game to me. There is a reason I had no interest in heroes before inheritance became a thing. So without an influx of new skills/units into my barracks the game may as well be dead. That said new skills/units are coming out rather fast right now. Faster than I can build them up/acquire them anyways. Due to pull mechanics even without new skills or units I could go a while with just summoning from what is currently available. Or basically I would deal better with no further updates to the game than I would with no new skills/units coming into my barracks(GHB and TT are a thing of course, but that can be VERY slow acquisition so I would likely lose interest unless they came faster in succession).

Edited January 28, 2018 by Usana

[Clogon]

3 hours ago, shadowofchaos said:

This statement is a misleading all-encompassing statement that only takes into account *ONE* playstyle and goal.

They are not "unsalvagable" by any means.

How is it misleading when it specifies for a playstyle and goal which is offensive use (IE killing things)? I am not saying they cannot be used in other ways, only for this specific.

 

I also specifed in which context, though I should have stated Advanced Arena where you always face higher merges:

9 hours ago, Clogon said:

This means that she won't be able to reliably do her job as a mage killer, especially in Inferno or Arena where you fight enemies with boosted stats.

 

You and your fiance may have the self control and focus to keep and concentrate your resources but that is not the case for the majority of the players, especially the ones complaining. I am unsure if you guys even fit into the term "casual" but even I can't define the term properly. :/

The non mages you listed do not have 25 or lower base ATK.

There are thousands of people who play this game. The voices and complaints you hear are from a very small minority. Low resources + unable to meet their goals = complaint. To us it is trivial because we have a different mindset and different goals. But to a select few, it is a huge detriment to their goal and desires.

2 hours ago, Korath88 said:

I feel like the Felicia analogy is completely redundant as she's a free unit from the rotational maps, so everyone has a neutral natured one. Only an idiot would build a -Atk Felicia. Besides, it's not like there's any other sub-25 Atk physical unit that performs well in the arena anyways.

I chose her because she has the lowest ATK and was easy to math with. As a resident of top 2k arena, there are quite a bit. 26 base ATK won't stop me from +10'ing my Eirika. There was a team of 4 +10 Selena at one point. When you put investment into a unit, any of them can be built to fill specific roles that your team can use.

_______

On topic:

I wish everyone good luck on this banner! I already got what I want so I am happy.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Clogon