General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[DLNarshen]

I'm happiest about Lief, but I'm most curious to see what they do with Henry.  Outside of some the launch healers, I'm having a hard time thinking of any unit with worse offensive prospects (Spring Xander maybe?).  Right now he is entirely dependent on special procs to do any meaningful damage.  Someone mentioned a +7 true damage effect, but I don't think that's enough.  On most units that is sufficiently strong, but Henry just goes from doing 0 damage, to 7 at best.  He's going to need something truly ridiculous to be worth anyone's time. 

[XRay]

24 minutes ago, DLNarshen said:

I'm happiest about Lief, but I'm most curious to see what they do with Henry.  Outside of some the launch healers, I'm having a hard time thinking of any unit with worse offensive prospects (Spring Xander maybe?).  Right now he is entirely dependent on special procs to do any meaningful damage.  Someone mentioned a +7 true damage effect, but I don't think that's enough.  On most units that is sufficiently strong, but Henry just goes from doing 0 damage, to 7 at best.  He's going to need something truly ridiculous to be worth anyone's time. 

He can have a Refinement that activates Ignis on every hit, just as how Lunar Arc/Saintly Seraphim is basically Moonbow on every hit. That is 25 true damage based on just his Def alone without any skills.

Maybe something like the following. I threw in Sagittae and did some minor adjustments everywhere for good measure.

Weapon:
Grants Def/Res+6. Grants weapon-triangle advantage against colorless foes, and inflicts weapon-triangle disadvantage on colorless foes during combat. At start of combat, if foe's Atk ≥ unit's Atk, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 during combat.

Refinement:
Deals damage = 80% of unit's Def. If unit's Def > foe's Def, boosts damage dealt by 100% of difference between stats.

Edited January 4, 2020 by XRay

[DLNarshen]

7 minutes ago, XRay said:

He can have a Refinement that activates Ignis on every hit, just as how Lunar Arc/Saintly Seraphim is basically Moonbow on every hit. That is 25 true damage based on just his Def alone without any skills.

Well, maybe instead of true damage they can double down on the whole "requiring specials for damage" thing.

Corvus Tome: Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1) Grants weapon-triangle advantage against colorless foes, and inflicts weapon-triangle disadvantage on colorless foes during combat.
[Refine] If Special triggers before or during combat, grants Special cooldown count-2 after combat.

After the first combat, enemies will require the Guard effect to not get smacked by Ignis on the counter. 

[Hilda]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

He can have a Refinement that activates Ignis on every hit, just as how Lunar Arc/Saintly Seraphim is basically Moonbow on every hit. That is 25 true damage based on just his Def alone without any skills.

Maybe something like the following. I threw in Sagittae and did some minor adjustments everywhere for good measure.

Weapon:
Grants Def/Res+6. Grants weapon-triangle advantage against colorless foes, and inflicts weapon-triangle disadvantage on colorless foes during combat. At start of combat, if foe's Atk ≥ unit's Atk, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 during combat.

Refinement:
Deals damage = 80% of unit's Def. If unit's Def > foe's Def, boosts damage dealt by 100% of difference between stats.

Yes they will give him 4 effects on his weapon... suuuuuuuure thing. Boey got a 14 Mt Raven tome with a conditional close Counter refine and you think they will give Henry a 14 mt raven tome with  Fortress Def/Res 3 (no drawback), a spectrum in combat buff based on his poor attack AND a true dmg refine without any condition to fullfill lol.

This isnt book 10 yet where this might be possible we still in Book 4.

IF Henry is lucky, they will give him the new years unit refine but based on DEf, and even that would be a shitty refine for him, because his Def is decent but its not that high to make use of such an effect.

His only worthwile stat is his Max High HP. A refine based on his Max High HP would be imho the best for him. but who knows they might surprise us.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Hilda said:

Yes they will give him 4 effects on his weapon... suuuuuuuure thing.

Nagi is only Gen III I think, and Ethereal Breath got four effects: Slaying, dragon effectiveness, Raven, and area Special dampening.

[DLNarshen]

4 hours ago, XRay said:

Nagi is only Gen III I think, and Ethereal Breath got four effects: Slaying, dragon effectiveness, Raven, and area Special dampening.

As silly as it is, Heroes doesn't seem to count effective damage as an "effect".   

[XRay]

18 minutes ago, DLNarshen said:

As silly as it is, Heroes doesn't seem to count effective damage as an "effect".   

They think it is good enough as a stand alone effect for Est's Whitewing Spear and Clive's Lordly Lance so I think it should still count.

[DLNarshen]

10 minutes ago, XRay said:

They think it is good enough as a stand alone effect for Est's Whitewing Spear and Clive's Lordly Lance so I think it should still count.

It's certainly good enough to stand on its own, but almost every time it's stacked on a bonus.  The Falchions have all been like this since the beginning - while every other Prf Sword had only one effect, they got dragon effectiveness + Renewal 2.  Or more recently with Phina getting effective damage against two unit types + two additional effects.  Compare that to Sirius (who debuted on the same banner) only getting the standard two effects.  I think it should count, and it does for non-Prfs and unrefined Prfs for older units, but generally this is not the case.  

[XRay]

2 hours ago, DLNarshen said:

It's certainly good enough to stand on its own, but almost every time it's stacked on a bonus.  The Falchions have all been like this since the beginning - while every other Prf Sword had only one effect, they got dragon effectiveness + Renewal 2.  Or more recently with Phina getting effective damage against two unit types + two additional effects.  Compare that to Sirius (who debuted on the same banner) only getting the standard two effects.  I think it should count, and it does for non-Prfs and unrefined Prfs for older units, but generally this is not the case.  

It counts sometimes and it does not count sometimes. I do not think it has to be categorized strictly as one or the other.

Since effectiveness is in a grey zone, I think Henry can take advantage of that and run infantry and armor effectiveness on his Weapon and be considered as effects that do not count, and he can run additional effect to improve his damage output.

Edited January 5, 2020 by XRay

[Ice Dragon]

Weapon names in Japanese are "Cordelia's Love Lance", "Rebecca's Hunting Bow", and "Black Crow Tome" or "Black Raven Tome" (the common names for both crows and ravens are the same in Japanese).

I highly doubt that Light Brand will get adaptive damage unless it replaces its base effect since its base effect is intended to be a weaker version of adaptive damage to begin with.

 

On 1/3/2020 at 2:23 AM, Glennstavos said:

Henry will have an owl effect somewhere in there. It's the book 1 mage curse.

At least Raudhrowl is actually good on Henry.

I'm still annoyed that they gave the Robins Litrraven instead of Litrowl since they actually need the extra stats that Litrowl provides. Bulky Gen 1 ranged units are seriously lacking in points in stats to actually do that job.

 

On 1/3/2020 at 2:33 PM, X-Naut said:

Renewal is another possible effect since he can heal with it in Thracia although it's redundant with S Drink.

Healing every other turn is not redundant with a full heal at the beginning of the map. Especially because healing at the beginning of the map is completely pointless outside of Chain modes for player-controlled units.

 

On 1/4/2020 at 9:43 PM, DLNarshen said:

As silly as it is, Heroes doesn't seem to count effective damage as an "effect".   

On 1/5/2020 at 1:14 AM, XRay said:

It counts sometimes and it does not count sometimes. I do not think it has to be categorized strictly as one or the other.

For consistency, it does not "count" for the purposes of balancing how many effects a weapon has. How strong a weapon is and how many effects it has are independent of each other. (After all, Berserk Armads is still pretty much the strongest weapon in the game despite only having two effects and no bonus effects that don't "count".)

All weapons created before Niles's Bow have at most two effects that "count". Not "exactly" two effects, "at most" two effects. If you are aware of the "god of the gaps" fallacy, this is basically the same thing on a more mundane scale. If an effect is "missing", there's no need to force an effect to count there to fill in the gap (especially if it makes other things more complicated in the process).

Also note that this is descriptive, not prescriptive. It's simply a means of explaining weapon effects with the fewest rules and fewest exceptions.

[XRay]

On 1/4/2020 at 12:57 PM, Hilda said:

Yes they will give him 4 effects on his weapon... suuuuuuuure thing.

On 1/4/2020 at 7:43 PM, DLNarshen said:

As silly as it is, Heroes doesn't seem to count effective damage as an "effect".   

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

For consistency, it does not "count" for the purposes of balancing how many effects a weapon has. How strong a weapon is and how many effects it has are independent of each other. (After all, Berserk Armads is still pretty much the strongest weapon in the game despite only having two effects and no bonus effects that don't "count".)

I think I can cram up to 7 or 8 effects then, with 3 Whitewing effects to double the effect count and slap on double effectiveness on top.

Black Raven:
Effective against infantry foes. If the number of allies within 2 spaces ≥ 1, grants Def/Res +6 during combat, and at start of combat, if foe's Atk ≥ unit's Atk, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 during combat. If the number of allies within 2 spaces ≥ 2, neutralizes effects that prevent unit's counterattacks during combat, and grants weapon-triangle advantage against colorless foes, and inflicts weapon-triangle disadvantage on colorless foes during combat.

Refinement:
Effective against armor foes. If the number of allies within 2 spaces ≥ 1, neutralizes effects that grant "Special cooldown charge +X" to foe, or inflict "Special cooldown charge -X" on unit., and at start of combat, if unit's max HP ≥ foe's Spd, deals damage = 80% of unit's Def and restores HP = 50% of damage dealt.

Not sure if double effectiveness counts as 1 effect, so I decided to split them up. I think making the first proximity effect more lenient is okay since Henry really needs a stat boost as a gen I infantry mage. I also added Null C-Disrupt so he can shut down Firesweepers. Instead of Special Spiral, I figure Null S-Disrupt might be more useful and he can run Bonfire or Sol. Taking his high HP into account, instead of running 1 Special like Ignis, he can run "2 Specials" Special like Aether; and to make sure he always win the stat check, I decide to have his HP compared to the foe's Spd instead, since armor units might have a higher HP than him, but no one has that amount of visible Spd yet.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Henry's Corvus tome is pretty obvious.

 

It's going to have his base Raven tome. Raven ... Corvus. And that's ignoring that Henry is the unit that essentially themed the entire Raven tome set. 

 

I wouldn't expect anything wild from the refine. Likely something defensive, like a Stance skill. Optimistically, it could be something as good as Lull Atk/Res. Quick Riposte is also possible. 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Etheus

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, XRay said:

I think I can cram up to 7 or 8 effects then, with 3 Whitewing effects to double the effect count and slap on double effectiveness on top.

At that point, what's stopping you from just adding every skill effect in the game? If you're going to be unrealistic, why not just go all the way?

[XRay]

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

At that point, what's stopping you from just adding every skill effect in the game? If you're going to be unrealistic, why not just go all the way?

Neutral Henry got 48 Atk at +10+10 with Sagittae effect, so he really is not going to be doing much damage without other skills to help him out.

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, XRay said:

Neutral Henry got 48 Atk at +10+10 with Sagittae effect, so he really is not going to be doing much damage without other skills to help him out.

He can get Bladeravenowl and probably be fine with just 3 effects.

[Diovani Bressan]

16 hours ago, XRay said:

Black Raven:
Effective against infantry foes. If the number of allies within 2 spaces ≥ 1, grants Def/Res +6 during combat, and at start of combat, if foe's Atk ≥ unit's Atk, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 during combat. If the number of allies within 2 spaces ≥ 2, neutralizes effects that prevent unit's counterattacks during combat, and grants weapon-triangle advantage against colorless foes, and inflicts weapon-triangle disadvantage on colorless foes during combat.

Refinement:
Effective against armor foes. If the number of allies within 2 spaces ≥ 1, neutralizes effects that grant "Special cooldown charge +X" to foe, or inflict "Special cooldown charge -X" on unit., and at start of combat, if unit's max HP ≥ foe's Spd, deals damage = 80% of unit's Def and restores HP = 50% of damage dealt.

You forgot to add Guard effect, and smoke + panic after combat.

[XRay]

10 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

He can get Bladeravenowl and probably be fine with just 3 effects.

Blade is vulnerable to Panic. Owl is not very viable in Aether Raids unless his allies are also super bulky tanks who do not mind sticking with Henry.

4 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

You forgot to add Guard effect, and smoke + panic after combat.

C slot skills are not strong enough compared to A skills and B skills in my opinion.

And I do not think those skills are strong enough to replace any of the skills already mentioned.

[Diovani Bressan]

Just now, XRay said:

And I do not think those skills are strong enough to replace any of the skills already mentioned.

No, it's not replace... add Guard, spectrum smoke and panic smoke to that huge and not that exaggerated description.

[XRay]

48 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

No, it's not replace... add Guard, spectrum smoke and panic smoke to that huge and not that exaggerated description.

I am trying to find loopholes in the rules, not completely break the rules. The only way I can think of to add more effects is to nest conditional positioning/Special effects within another, so each effect can have 4 effects.

I will entertain the idea anyways. I do not like to nest conditional Special requirements because it requires Special Spiral and because both those effects makes the whole effect super vulnerable with Melancholy. All the effects I have previously mentioned also cannot be nullified in anyway via debuffs or skills, outside of Drag Back cavalry to disable the conditional positioning requirements. I added Special Spiral to make the whole thing work. I went with Dull over Panic since Panic can be negated with Restore, and if you really want Panic, just use the C slot since there is no other skill left on that slot to run. I also added debuff Blade effect to take advantage of spectrum Smoke.

Black Raven:

Effective against infantry foes.

If the number of allies within 2 spaces ≥ 1 and at start of combat Special is ready: if Special triggers before or during combat, grants Special cooldown count-2 after combat; inflicts Special cooldown charge -1 on foe per attack; grants Def/Res +6 during combat; and at start of combat, if foe's Atk ≥ unit's Atk, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 during combat.

If the number of allies within 2 spaces ≥ 2 and at start of combat Special is ready: Inflicts Atk/Spd/Def/Res-5 on foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions after combat; neutralizes effects that prevent unit's counterattacks during combat; and grants weapon-triangle advantage against colorless foes, and inflicts weapon-triangle disadvantage on colorless foes during combat.

Refinement:

Effective against armor foes.

If the number of allies within 2 spaces ≥ 1 and at start of combat Special is ready: grants bonus to unit's Atk = total penalties on foe during combat; neutralizes foe's bonuses (from skills like Fortify, Rally, etc.) during combat; neutralizes effects that grant "Special cooldown charge +X" to foe, or inflict "Special cooldown charge -X" on unit., and at start of combat, if unit's max HP ≥ foe's Spd, deals damage = 80% of unit's Def and restores HP = 50% of damage dealt.

2 M!Corrins can run Infantry Pulse to jump start Henry, although they will both need to run HP boosting A skill on the A slot; one of them can run HP/Def 2 to draw Def Chills away from Henry. 2 Eirs will be helpful for healing, and one of them can run Temari for debuffing support, and they can run Sabotage on their B for further debuff support.

Henry's Assist does not really matter. He is going to run Noontime or Moonbow. Close Counter on A. Quick Riposte on B. Panic Smoke on C. Deflect Magic on Sacred Seal so he can handle Reinhardt.

Edited January 7, 2020 by XRay

[Javi Blizz]

Could it be possible for Henry to get the same refine as Boey? Conditional Close Counter frees his A slot for something more useful (and more consistent than having X allies/foes in Y range) such as Brazen Atk/Def or Fierce Stance.

[Zeo]

I love how everyone is trying to make Henry's weapon OP when it'll probably just be something like a Raven tome with +4 to all stats if the enemy initiates combat. Rebecca will probably just have a Slaying Bow with true damage and some effect besides Flashing Blade as the 3rd effect. Leif should get DC + Adaptive damage though as a homage to the Light Brand.

[Diovani Bressan]

Here are the refinements. Honestly... I am kinda disappointed...

Edited January 8, 2020 by Diovani Bressan

[Roflolxp54]

This refinery update is a pretty big disappointment.

Cordelia's base Prf is fine (about expected) but the refine is very similar to Subaki's and in general feels like a downgrade from the Swift Sparrow refine Elincia and Hana got.

Leif's best effect from his refine is the CDR.

Rebecca's base Prf and effect aren't bad in PvE. The big problem is that debuffs are common.

Henry feels like the biggest winner from this batch since he doesn't need Fortress skills with his Atk being abysmally low already. However, Legend Alm is still likely a very hard matchup for him due to armor penetration since Henry's got good Def and low Spd.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Roflolxp54

[Jave]

Cordelia works great for quadding in Galeforce teams. Leif is decent, but I’m in no hurry on getting it myself.

Rebecca is okay, but not my cup of tea since I’m not too fond on Rallies and Hones. I have much better archers built, but I’m sure those who like the character will make it work.

Henry... yikes. Can’t say I regret not building this dude. 

[Sunwoo]

I mean

It's not the WORST bunch of refines ever

Better than Titania and Seth getting stuck with gem weapons and tactic refines at least