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Conquest tiering discussion

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To be fair the main unique use of Siegfried is on the wall in 23 (where it's actually really good in not-nos play), and the main use of Leo's booty garbage tome is never. 

We can pretty freely emulate either with a light forge anywhere else.

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3 hours ago, joshcja said:

It's E all around. No rank on promo here.

E bows are low-key extremely good in CQ. We're missing out on big WTA early on but a +2 bronze now is not to be scoffed at with 10 MT and near perfect to-hit for 2k coin with a nice defensive rider. Our next best deal is silver (which is pure murder) and crecent (at extremely high stack) is a far better capstone weapon than a brave sword.

E bows is probably the "best" E in the game.

Okay, but what about a vanilla Bronze Bow?  Forging wasn't touched upon in the opening post (whether it's allowed or now, and for how far is unknown), and when it comes to tiering, it means sticking to whatever rules the list abides by.

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On 12/21/2018 at 11:32 PM, Dean said:
  • I think Elise depends on our stance on visiting online castles. If we allow it, a lot of the opportunity cost of reclassing her goes. I don't care too much for Troubadour Elise but I can see that Wyvern Elise would be a tier above Leo, if we're moving him to B. She is a bit of an Arthur hog though.

I dunno about you, but I think Wyvern Elise is... not very good, to put it nicely. Axes combined with godawful skill and low strength??? I would have a hard time seeing this as anything other than dumb on frigging Normal mode, let alone Lunatic.

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@eclipse Even without forging, a Mechanist Kaze is one-rounding late game falcons and wyverns with a bronze bow. The Merc/Bow Knights might need 2 rounds due to lack of doubles.

@Shadow Mir When you see Wyvern Elise, think Malig Knight. Flight, tomes and enough bulk to survive a stray hit or two. Not really my choice but it works for many.

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12 minutes ago, Johnnie said:

@Shadow Mir When you see Wyvern Elise, think Malig Knight. Flight, tomes and enough bulk to survive a stray hit or two. Not really my choice but it works for many.

Which doesn't impress me because the Wyvern Rider phase that you have to go through first is just that damn bad. Or are you going to level her up as a Troubadour then seal her after promotion...?

Edited by Shadow Mir

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If I were to go Wyvern Elise, it would be on promotion to go straight to flight and tomes. Others seal ASAP to get her to C axes by Chapter 13 for the bolt axe.

I prefer Dark Knight Elise. Better skill rank, she keeps the horse and she's Ophilia's best mom.

Also, re: katanas vs. yumis. You get access to neither for the bulk of Conquest so their stat bonuses are irrelevant. For my money, bows are always better than swords when considering promotion paths.

And since we're sharing personal tier lists:

Niles - Niles tier. He exists outside of the list.

S - Camilla, Elise, Azura, Jakob1

A - Silas, Beruka, Odin, Bowzu

B - Royal brothers, Effie, Felicia1 (with Flame Shuriken), Wyvern Gunter

Everyone else

Edited by Johnnie

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1 hour ago, Johnnie said:

If I were to go Wyvern Elise, it would be on promotion to go straight to flight and tomes. Others seal ASAP to get her to C axes by Chapter 13 for the bolt axe.

The thing is, either way, you have problems, as I see it. That being said, I generally think Malig Knight is an unclass, so I find it not worth giving the time of day. Also, I don't see the appeal of Bolt Axe Elise - having to rely on a weapon with only 65 base hit is far from ideal when you have crap for skill.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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7 hours ago, joshcja said:

To be fair the main unique use of Siegfried is on the wall in 23 (where it's actually really good in not-nos play), and the main use of Leo's booty garbage tome is never.


Absolutely. Whenever I think about Sigfried's most important contribution I picture Chapter 23.
For me, usually Mozu & Co. deal with the welcoming Snipers, while +Mag Corrinette & Co. are the brave and the bold taking the stairs on the wall.
I guess that I have yet to learn how to use Leo. Not using Camilla and Xander may be a challenge, but Leo always seems superfluous.


You know what, Johnnie, since I agree with most of your list, I think that I should give Beruka a try. My disliking her is purely subjective.
And outside this tier list, since you mentioned Mechanist Kaze, you might one to try Mechanist Anna (immediately class-changed into an Apothecary at L10.) She will surprise you.

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8 hours ago, joshcja said:

To be fair the main unique use of Siegfried is on the wall in 23 (where it's actually really good in not-nos play), and the main use of Leo's booty garbage tome is never. 

We can pretty freely emulate either with a light forge anywhere else.

Forging doesn't make any ordinary weapon have the +10 Cev that those have to offer (unless it's a bronze, where you'd have to go up to +4 to get close to the might level of either - and I'm extremely hesitant to accept forging as legitimate with the way resources are, aka the part where you only get one resource regularly and have to rely on luck for the rest), and it definitely doesn't give any namby-pamby sword range. Not to mention I have better things to do with my time and money.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Can someone explain to me why Arthur tends to be in the mid tier? From my perspective his middlish speed and very poor luck makes consistency hard when everyone else has better results.

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Since others have posted their personal tier lists, might as well...

"Junk's more useful than you" tier: Arthur, Charlotte

"Only good thing about you is your child" tier: Odin, Silas, Laslow, Niles

S Tier: Camilla

Everyone Else tier: Everyone else

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3 hours ago, Jingle Bells said:

Can someone explain to me why Arthur tends to be in the mid tier? From my perspective his middlish speed and very poor luck makes consistency hard when everyone else has better results.

Probably because of his availability, great pair-up bonuses, access to Cavalier and easy 8.000-11.000 Gold in his son's map by Chapter 11.
That is my guess, at least; I do not use him personally, nor do I use 'backpacks' in general.

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@starburst Beruka is easily overlooked since she joins with Camilla. She's a cross between Benny and Effie; a little less strength and defense than either, high utility and both Arthur and Silas want wings. At promotion she's a better tank than Camilla.

I've never bothered to use Anna. I'll have to give her a shot on my next run.

@Shadow Mir It's trivial to forge a +1 weapon without any sort of luck or grinding, and you're given enough free Iron weapons to make it worth the effort. A +1 Iron is 1 mt less than Steel with no speed penalty.

@Jingle Bells Arthur is serviceable. He has a respectable Speed growth, great Strength and decent Skill and Defense. You're given 2 Goddess Icons before Chapter 10 to offset his growth and personal. He seals to Cavalier where he performs as a second Silas with similar Strength and Defense.

Edited by Johnnie

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10 minutes ago, Johnnie said:

Beruka is easily overlooked since she joins with Camilla. She's a cross between Benny and Effie; a little less strength and defense than either, high utility and both Arthur and Silas want wings. At promotion she's a better tank than Camilla.

I've never bothered to use Anna. I'll have to give her a shot on my next run.

Well, about that, the thing is... I do not even use Camilla. He he he.
It is not just that Beruka is a worse Camilla, but that I dislike her looks and character (just like I hate Jakob.) It is this subjective opinion what has prevented me to give Beruka a serious try along a whole campaign.

Mechanist Kaze is faster and a tiny bit stronger than Mechanist Anna, but she has equally powerful Magic and Strength. No, seriously, she hits hard as fuck and gives you the versatility to target Defence and Resistance with both weapons (the only other unit who can do something similar is +Mag Corrinette with the Yato and a Levin Sword, but Anna does it with two weapon types.) If you think that Shining Bow Nina and Flame Shuriken Felicia are a thing, Anna wields both and also has considerably more Strength than those two.

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39 minutes ago, Johnnie said:

It's trivial to forge a +1 weapon without any sort of luck or grinding, and you're given enough free Iron weapons to make it worth the effort. A +1 Iron is 1 mt less than Steel with no speed penalty.

...for ONE weapon type. Out of six. If you want to forge weapon types other than the one which you get the resource for in your castle, you have to get lucky with the lottery or other character interactions. That's way too much of a random factor to see forging as legitimate.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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You can swap five of your castle's gemstone for one of the others, then use the arena to duplicate those. Merely by doing this, you should be able to get enough gemstones to get a +1 for your entire army by midgame, and enough to get a +2 for your entire army by lategame, speaking as someone who regularly does it (and I don't even do anything "extra" like resetting to get better arena results, although I probably would if I ever got hit by a low-% crit on my last current copy of a gemstone).

Anyway I don't really see how Silas is better than Xander unless you give way too many points for availability. Xander admittedly loses speed, but he has a big win in defence, and Siegfried is a major boon for reasons already given; it's basically a +3.5 Bronze Sword and a +2.5 Javelin all in one, and if you get enough speed for Xander, he can even double with it. And Chivalry is quite a bit better than Vow of Friendship IMO; it's almost always relevant, and is 67% as good as Vow even when the latter is active, which can require some rather specific and/or finnicky play to attain and maintain IMO.

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My biggest issues with Xander is that he's not impressive in his first 3 chapters and without his weapon he is mediocre at best. It's a useless argument since Xander is always going to carry Siegfried, but compared to Ryoma or even Camilla he is barely on par with your other units. I do agree he has the better personal compared to Silas. Hell, Peri's is better.

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2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

You can swap five of your castle's gemstone for one of the others, then use the arena to duplicate those. Merely by doing this, you should be able to get enough gemstones to get a +1 for your entire army by midgame, and enough to get a +2 for your entire army by lategame, speaking as someone who regularly does it (and I don't even do anything "extra" like resetting to get better arena results, although I probably would if I ever got hit by a low-% crit on my last current copy of a gemstone).

Anyway I don't really see how Silas is better than Xander unless you give way too many points for availability. Xander admittedly loses speed, but he has a big win in defence, and Siegfried is a major boon for reasons already given; it's basically a +3.5 Bronze Sword and a +2.5 Javelin all in one, and if you get enough speed for Xander, he can even double with it. And Chivalry is quite a bit better than Vow of Friendship IMO; it's almost always relevant, and is 67% as good as Vow even when the latter is active, which can require some rather specific and/or finnicky play to attain and maintain IMO.

Here's the thing - you either have to fight 4 fights or wait a whole day before you can mine ores. That's not something I'm willing to ignore. Are we really going to assume that we're willing to wait for several days just to get enough ores to trade for others??? 

I agree on Silas being overrated to holy hell and back. Availability only means so much, and his personal requiring something moronic to be the case to work (half-dead main character - No chance in the name of Anankos am I okay with this) automatically renders it impractical, since I want Corrin healthy and on the front lines.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Anyway I don't really see how Silas is better than Xander unless you give way too many points for availability. Xander admittedly loses speed, but he has a big win in defence, and Siegfried is a major boon for reasons already given [...]


Siegfried (and a dedicated 'backpack') is the answer. Without it, Xander is not better than Silas. If anything, the Wyvern tree is what may grant Xander an objective lead over Silas. Their growths are basically the same, but Xander will haver more HP and more Luck, while Silas will have more Skill and more Speed. I personally value Skill and Speed, but it may be just me.

Anyway, as already stated by Johnnie, since there is no compelling reason not to equip Siegfried (or not to abuse 'backpack' bonuses), yeah, Xander will always rank higher than Silas.

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So I've read through the arguments in this thread, and made some adjustments.

  • Moved Niles from A to S.
  • Move Silas from B to A.
  • Moved Xander from S to A.
  • Moved Odin from C to B, for now.
    • I was curious about his mid-game (I already know his earlygame with Nosferatu is very solid). Some KO thresholds:
      • C14 Archers: 20 Atk, 17 AS
      • C14 Oni Savage: 21 Atk, 16 AS
      • C16 Dark Mage: 27 Atk, 14 AS
      • C16 Fighter: 23 Atk, 19 AS
      • C16 Berserker: 27 Atk, 21 AS
      • C16 Mercenary: 24 Atk, 21 AS
      • He hits all of these pretty easily...
  • Moved Leo to B.
  • Added Jakob 2 to D. I have Felicia 2 in C right now, and I figured worse chip damage + weaker personal skill warranted a tier difference.
  • Added Shura to D.

Other things on my mind:

  • Will have another look over Silas and Odin debates, as their position is still a bit up in the air.
  • Kaze brings a lot of positive qualities, but he might be niche enough to drop to B.
  • Elise is very close to A atm.
  • Selena's probably not far off B. Gunter's another interesting one, from the current C rank.
  • I think Peri's very underwhelming and close to D.
  • Nyx can be pretty useful for a few chapters which is probably more than the rest of D.

 

Voting on the Reddit list is starting within the next 12 hours I think? If people were interested in contributing to that.

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I have never understood Dark Knight Nyx. I've tried it a few times and I don't see it. Even promoted in Chapter 9, she's nearly useless in 10; 11 can be done with Effie, Silas and Niles so everyone is superfluous there; she can be a PP nuke on 12 with a forged Fire tome provided she can hit a damn thing; and she might do a bit of work in 13 and 14. I just don't see the point.

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2 hours ago, Johnnie said:

I have never understood Dark Knight Nyx. I've tried it a few times and I don't see it. Even promoted in Chapter 9, she's nearly useless in 10; 11 can be done with Effie, Silas and Niles so everyone is superfluous there; she can be a PP nuke on 12 with a forged Fire tome provided she can hit a damn thing; and she might do a bit of work in 13 and 14. I just don't see the point.

Ditto. She's just too inaccurate. Simply put, she's like a magical Gonzales, AKA I cannot rely on her for anything worth a damn. Her non-magic and speed stats being poor only makes me ask "how in the name of Duma did she wind up making a rather undeserved meteoric rise on the Reddit tier list???".

Edited by Shadow Mir

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16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Here's the thing - you either have to fight 4 fights or wait a whole day before you can mine ores. That's not something I'm willing to ignore. Are we really going to assume that we're willing to wait for several days just to get enough ores to trade for others??? 

 

Huh, I feel like you and I might play through the game at very different rates! I was assuming the player does roughly one battle per day, and thus get roughly one shot at the mine per battle. I guess forging suffers a bit if you plan to blitz through a playthrough over a weekend or something (or we're doing tier list for a real-time speedrun), but in general I'd prefer to assume in tiering discussion that we're talking about an average player who lives a balanced life and has other demands on his or her time.

 

16 hours ago, Johnnie said:

My biggest issues with Xander is that he's not impressive in his first 3 chapters and without his weapon he is mediocre at best.

Really? I find Xander is outright overpowered if sent to the right side of chapter 16 (OHKO the adventurers, 2HKO at worst and be nearly invincible against the rest), then his incredible defence allows him to be a very effective and mobile wall against the all-physical Chapter 17.

How good Xander is without Siegfried isn't really a relevant point of discussion since he always has access to it and it's a big part of what makes him useful.

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20 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Anyway I don't really see how Silas is better than Xander unless you give way too many points for availability. Xander admittedly loses speed, but he has a big win in defence, and Siegfried is a major boon for reasons already given; it's basically a +3.5 Bronze Sword and a +2.5 Javelin all in one, and if you get enough speed for Xander, he can even double with it. And Chivalry is quite a bit better than Vow of Friendship IMO; it's almost always relevant, and is 67% as good as Vow even when the latter is active, which can require some rather specific and/or finnicky play to attain and maintain IMO.

MN reclass off Kaze and sol makes Silias coparable with a +X iron knife to talisman Xander at join if you're willing to abuse VoF.

Not saying Xander isn't one of the best EP units in the game. Just that we can emulate him off a high value early join unit and that he's a high value late join unit.

--------------------------

As for forge being forge. Why would we not consider this? Pretty much all of my comments on this mechanic (unless explicitly stating otherwise) can be used in a single sitting playthrough with a sub-optimal resource mine and are less expensive/restrictive than the alternate seal/booster/tonic options.

Edited by joshcja

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2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Huh, I feel like you and I might play through the game at very different rates! I was assuming the player does roughly one battle per day, and thus get roughly one shot at the mine per battle. I guess forging suffers a bit if you plan to blitz through a playthrough over a weekend or something (or we're doing tier list for a real-time speedrun), but in general I'd prefer to assume in tiering discussion that we're talking about an average player who lives a balanced life and has other demands on his or her time.

See, that's why I think forging is illegitimate as an argument, otherwise you might as well give the okay to Anna shops in Awakening.

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