[DATAMINE] Special Heroes Arrive! Greil's Devoted!

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

But, again, you have no proof whatsoever for any of this. You are basing it entirely on the fact that Zelgius declared Ike Greil's equal after receiving the blessing, and that therefore it was only thinks to the blessing that Ike became Greil's equal, which only works if:

1: The english was a very specific mistranslation and that they weren't purely talking about skill (unproven)

Or:

2: The blessing improved his skill (unproven)

and

3: Ike didn't make any other normal improvement in skill between those two fights with Zelgius (unproven).

Your entire argument is based on premises you have yet to provide any evidence for whatsoever, only semantic arguments for why it's plausible to believe it might be the case. You have shown absolutely nothing that would demonstrate any of these things are the case.

Ike, despite three years of training after the events of Path of Radiance, is stated by the Black Knight to not yet be in Greil's league still if Ike fights and beats the Black Knight in Part 3 of RD. It is only at Part 4, after Ike has received the blessing, that they have their final battle, and Zelgius states that Ike is finally at Greil's level. 

Your entire claim that I have no proof is utterly ridiculous because I literally gave you text that indicated as such. 

Everything is literally shown in the very text that is shown, but you are trying to wave every evidence and trying to insist that they don't mean anything, then trying to throw logic about how Greil could have just legendary strength in his prime despite how Ike did far more than Greil did. 

I literally explained everything, and you still don't get it.

[Alastor15243]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ike, despite three years of training after the events of Path of Radiance, is stated by the Black Knight to not yet be in Greil's league still if Ike fights and beats the Black Knight in Part 3 of RD. It is only at Part 4, after Ike has received the blessing, that they have their final battle, and Zelgius states that Ike is finally at Greil's level. 

Your entire claim that I have no proof is utterly ridiculous because I literally gave you text that indicated as such. 

Everything is literally shown in the very text that is shown, but you are trying to wave every evidence and trying to insist that they don't mean anything, then trying to throw logic about how Greil could have just legendary strength in his prime despite how Ike did far more than Greil did. 

I literally explained everything, and you still don't get it.

You're acting like Ike hasn't drastically improved in extreme wartime before. That's what he always does. Look at the first game. He went from an absolute rookie to a veritable dragonslayer in a matter of months. How is it so hard to believe that he closed the rest of that vague gap during a cross-country road trip while hounded by super-soldiers? And how is it so much harder to believe that that you think it's more plausible to assume, without explicit evidence, that Yune just gave the extra skill to him for free?

Edited February 8, 2019 by Alastor15243

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

You're acting like Ike hasn't drastically improved in extreme wartime before. That's what he always does. Look at the first game. He went from an absolute rookie to a verified dragonslayer in a matter of months. How is it so much harder to believe that he closed the rest of that vague gap during a cross-country road trip while hounded by super-soldiers that you think it's more plausible to assume, without explicit evidence, that Yune just gave the extra skill to him for free?

Let me ask. How much experience does someone need to go from level 1 to level 50 as opposed to the experience needed to go from level 50 to level 100?

Ike has grown much stronger, but that ends up making him ultimately hit a wall and no longer feel challenged. His conversation with Mia indicates that he's rather bored of fighting with her. The only one that Ike indicates gives him a real challenge is the Black Knight. So fighting against a bunch of level 1 schmuks in Ike's eyes yields little strength to be gained. 

Do you get it now? Or do you still think that Ike should experience the same drastic leap of skill and power from another war like last time? Because that would not be truly accurate. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Othin said:

Another FE9 banner would make a lot of sense now that beasts are in the game, and those three do seem like good picks.

Hopefully Ashnard GHB, too. He's overdue, I'd say.

And Ilyana will will probably be thrown on too. I just hope they pick a color other than Blue for our blue kitty with the soft belly, partly because Nailah already gives us a Blue Beast, and partly because I'd rather not get three copies of the tapeworm mage and no Ranulfs.

Still no Haar, and loading him on the same banner as Jill, although making sense in story, would not be quite so good in gameplay. Although they could make her Lance, Haar Axe, and Ashnard is obviously Sword, thus giving us a triple cocktail of melee physical fliers in one pack. -Too much probably.

I'm hoping they're generous with Ashnard and that he is a good GHB char.

[Gregster101]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And Ilyana will will probably be thrown on too. I just hope they pick a color other than Blue for our blue kitty with the soft belly, partly because Nailah already gives us a Blue Beast, and partly because I'd rather not get three copies of the tapeworm mage and no Ranulfs.

Still no Haar, and loading him on the same banner as Jill, although making sense in story, would not be quite so good in gameplay. Although they could make her Lance, Haar Axe, and Ashnard is obviously Sword, thus giving us a triple cocktail of melee physical fliers in one pack. -Too much probably.

I'm hoping they're generous with Ashnard and that he is a good GHB char.

My guess is that Jill will be added on a Tellius banner this year along with Lethe and Ranulf, while Haar will be on this year's Farfetched Heroes/Brave Redux banner

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Let me ask. How much experience does someone need to go from level 1 to level 50 as opposed to the experience needed to go from level 50 to level 100?

Ike has grown much stronger, but that ends up making him ultimately hit a wall and no longer feel challenged. His conversation with Mia indicates that he's rather bored of fighting with her. The only one that Ike indicates gives him a real challenge is the Black Knight. So fighting against a bunch of level 1 schmuks in Ike's eyes yields little strength to be gained. 

Do you get it now? Or do you still think that Ike should experience the same drastic leap of skill and power from another war like last time? Because that would not be truly accurate. 

Look, if you really want to keep arguing this, PM me. We’ve been arguing about this in this thread too long.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Look, if you really want to keep arguing this, PM me. We’ve been arguing about this in this thread too long.

I really don't need to. If you don't get it, then whatever. 

[Othin]

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And Ilyana will will probably be thrown on too. I just hope they pick a color other than Blue for our blue kitty with the soft belly, partly because Nailah already gives us a Blue Beast, and partly because I'd rather not get three copies of the tapeworm mage and no Ranulfs.

Still no Haar, and loading him on the same banner as Jill, although making sense in story, would not be quite so good in gameplay. Although they could make her Lance, Haar Axe, and Ashnard is obviously Sword, thus giving us a triple cocktail of melee physical fliers in one pack. -Too much probably.

I'm hoping they're generous with Ashnard and that he is a good GHB char.

Ilyana would be a good pick to round it out, yeah.

The nice thing about Haar is that he's more prominent in FE10 while Jill is more prominent in FE9. So that helps with the separation even before the whole Farfetched banner enters the picture.

I'm guessing we'll get more beasts in the meantime, particularly the Fates ones. If they do a banner dedicated to those, they'll probably round out all four colors. Although that'd make blue the color with two infantry beasts rather than one.

Blue tome Ilyana, axe Jill, red beast Lethe, and colorless beast Ranulf would make color balance, although colorless Ranulf could seem kind of wasteful. I feel like they'd be more likely to just continue stacking blue.

[Alastor15243]

Anyway, I really liked the paralogue for this, though not so much the ending.

When Greil argued why he couldn’t stay, I expected him to say something about the Ike and Mist of his timeline needing him. But instead, he basically said:

Greil: Children need to be orphaned in order to grow up into respectable adults. You would never have become as strong as you are if I had been there.

And, well... yeah that’s horrifying nonsense.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Anyway, I really liked the paralogue for this, though not so much the ending.

When Greil argued why he couldn’t stay, I expected him to say something about the Ike and Mist of his timeline needing him. But instead, he basically said:

Greil: Children need to be orphaned in order to grow up into respectable adults. You would never have become as strong as you are if I had been there.

And, well... yeah that’s horrifying nonsense.

The teachings of Duma is strong with this one.

[thecrimsonflash]

6 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Anyway, I really liked the paralogue for this, though not so much the ending.

When Greil argued why he couldn’t stay, I expected him to say something about the Ike and Mist of his timeline needing him. But instead, he basically said:

Greil: Children need to be orphaned in order to grow up into respectable adults. You would never have become as strong as you are if I had been there.

And, well... yeah that’s horrifying nonsense.

can you honestly say that Ike would have turned out the same with greil alive?

without the black knight motivating him it is probably right to assume that Ike would never have grown beyond being greil's son.

there is a reason why Ike refers to zelgius as his final teacher.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

can you honestly say that Ike would have turned out the same with greil alive?

without the black knight motivating him it is probably right to assume that Ike would never have grown beyond being greil's son.

there is a reason why Ike refers to zelgius as his final teacher.

In some way, yes, Ike COULD have grown to become like he was. It reminds me of this case in My Hero Academia, where Class A, where they grow through chaotic situations and adapt to it to get stronger, went against Class B, who trained diligently through the normal method and grew stronger as a result. 

Going about how RD has the case of chaos vs order, Ike could have attained the strength he got through an orderly training method from his father. What he got was the more chaotic way of becoming stronger though.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, thecrimsonflash said:

can you honestly say that Ike would have turned out the same with greil alive?

without the black knight motivating him it is probably right to assume that Ike would never have grown beyond being greil's son.

there is a reason why Ike refers to zelgius as his final teacher.

That’s more an issue of timing and circumstance. Forcing Ike into a leadership position just in time for history-making events to happen. Not an issue of his father holding him back and keeping him soft. The idea that Ike wouldn’t have turned out amazing if he hadn’t lost his father, or worse, the implication Greil made that if he got his father back he’d lose all the badassery he gained, is too horrible for words.

[bottlegnomes]

@omegaxis1 It feels like you're treating this as it's what the writers intended when that, one, makes absolutely no sense in Ike's narrative arc (unless as stated Ike and Zelgius are both too dumb to recognize an influence they'd consider unfair), and two, is just as likely to be an oversight/plothole. If that's what you took from the story cool, but if you're arguing that's how the writing staff intended it, I find that highly suspect.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

@omegaxis1 It feels like you're treating this as it's what the writers intended when that, one, makes absolutely no sense in Ike's narrative arc (unless as stated Ike and Zelgius are both too dumb to recognize an influence they'd consider unfair), and two, is just as likely to be an oversight/plothole. If that's what you took from the story cool, but if you're arguing that's how the writing staff intended it, I find that highly suspect.

I already said it. A lot of the writing in RD can very well be considered poor. Part 4 is filled with over the top plot conveniences, one after another.

[Baldrick]

If Zelgius just wanted to fight someone as strong as Greil, he could have picked a fight with one of the laguz kings. He specifically wanted to fight someone who had mastered Greil's style.

[bottlegnomes]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I already said it. A lot of the writing in RD can very well be considered poor. Part 4 is filled with over the top plot conveniences, one after another.

Ah. I took that as more of an "I guess that could be the case but this is more likely" than what I was intending. My apologies if I misinterpreted your stance.

@Baldrick To be fair, he did bitchslap the heir to Gallia's throne :P

Edited February 9, 2019 by bottlegnomes

[Gregster101]

37 minutes ago, Othin said:

Ilyana would be a good pick to round it out, yeah.

The nice thing about Haar is that he's more prominent in FE10 while Jill is more prominent in FE9. So that helps with the separation even before the whole Farfetched banner enters the picture.

I'm guessing we'll get more beasts in the meantime, particularly the Fates ones. If they do a banner dedicated to those, they'll probably round out all four colors. Although that'd make blue the color with two infantry beasts rather than one.

Blue tome Ilyana, axe Jill, red beast Lethe, and colorless beast Ranulf would make color balance, although colorless Ranulf could seem kind of wasteful. I feel like they'd be more likely to just continue stacking blue.

I feel like Ranulf will be a blue beast cuz...well, he's a blue cat. Not much to it really :P

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

If Zelgius just wanted to fight someone as strong as Greil, he could have picked a fight with one of the laguz kings. He specifically wanted to fight someone who had mastered Greil's style.

Well, he did say that he wanted to best the greatest swordsman in Tellius, which was none other than General Gawain. 

[Baldrick]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, he did say that he wanted to best the greatest swordsman in Tellius, which was none other than General Gawain. 

Did Yune give Ike swordfighting tips, then?

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Baldrick said:

Did Yune give Ike swordfighting tips, then?

Ike already has the teachings of Greil already, which Ike has more or less mastered. If anything, all Yune could do was just raise Ike's overall power. Faster, stronger, react more, etc. There doesn't need to be any fighting tips involved. When someone is at the pinnacle of their skill, all that's left is just to raise the overall power behind them. 

[Alastor15243]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ike already has the teachings of Greil already, which Ike has more or less mastered. If anything, all Yune could do was just raise Ike's overall power. Faster, stronger, react more, etc. There doesn't need to be any fighting tips involved. When someone is at the pinnacle of their skill, all that's left is just to raise the overall power behind them. 

So you admit Yune had nothing to do with Ike becoming Greil’s equal in skill then? :)

[Baldrick]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ike already has the teachings of Greil already, which Ike has more or less mastered. If anything, all Yune could do was just raise Ike's overall power. Faster, stronger, react more, etc. There doesn't need to be any fighting tips involved. When someone is at the pinnacle of their skill, all that's left is just to raise the overall power behind them. 

So Ike was already Greil's equal in skill without the blessing.

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

So you admit Yune had nothing to do with Ike becoming Greil’s equal in skill then? :)

 

5 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

So Ike was already Greil's equal in skill without the blessing.

Okay, I think I finally figured out how to perfectly explain to you guys.

What you guys are talking about sword skill, you are actually referring to sword techniques, the more appropriate term for this.

Now say this example. Ike has all the techniques learned and mastered from Greil. If him and Greil perform the exact same moves and techniques, but Greil performs them faster and stronger than Ike, who is the more skilled one? 

It would be Greil.

Yune enhancing Ike's strength and speed overall, that allows him to perform the techniques that he had acquired from his father to its full potential, Ike would then be as skilled as Greil.

Do you understand now?

[Alastor15243]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Okay, I think I finally figured out how to perfectly explain to you guys.

What you guys are talking about sword skill, you are actually referring to sword techniques, the more appropriate term for this.

Now say this example. Ike has all the techniques learned and mastered from Greil. If him and Greil perform the exact same moves and techniques, but Greil performs them faster and stronger than Ike, who is the more skilled one? 

It would be Greil.

Yune enhancing Ike's strength and speed overall, that allows him to perform the techniques that he had acquired from his father to its full potential, Ike would then be as skilled as Greil.

Do you understand now?

No. That’s not skill, that’s strength and agility. Skill is knowledge and the practice it takes to perform a task.

Nobody calls Superman more skilled than Batman unless we’re talking about the continuities where Superman’s mastered an insane number of skills through super intelligence. Because being super fast and strong enough to apply your knowledge better than weaker and slower but equally knowledgeable people is  not what we mean when we use the word skill.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Alastor15243