Can we talk about how terrible Those Who Slither in the Dark are as villains? (Spoilers Obviously)

[eclipse]

On 8/26/2019 at 2:08 PM, Crysta said:

They could go really ballsy and have all of the lords do terrible things and force the fanbase to make really ridiculous arguments to justify liking one better than the other due to their own biases.

Who wouldn't enjoy several 'is Edelgard wrong' threads?

If the story had focused more on how screwed-up Fodlan's social standings are, I think this could've happened.

21 hours ago, Seazas said:

Fire Emblem fanbase can't handle moral gray either. Plenty are blindly calling Rhea and Edelgard evil just because they have bad and flawed aspects to them.

This is a people problem, not a FE one.  Shades of gray are apparently hard to see (including you).

21 hours ago, Seazas said:

Additionally, she sees him as incompetent doesn't she? She easily gets mad at Claude's jokes. Dimitri sees right through them and controls himself: leading to the two having better relations toward each other.

Black Eagles spoilers:

Spoiler

After the timeskip, she has a lot more respect for him, especially his intelligence.

 

[Eryon]

The only thing Those Who Slither show is that Rhea is a disgrace to her kind for how lenient she was with humans even after the extermination of the Goddess' Chldren. She could've done much to prevent them and other future disasters if she recognized how depraved humans really are and acted accordingly (namely by not being naive enough to think they could be trusted to not twist her mercy gifts to them for their purposes).

Edited August 28, 2019 by Eryon

[timon]

1 minute ago, Eryon said:

The only thing Those Who Slither show is that Rhea is a disgrace to her kind for how lenient she was with humans.

You're going around calling people out because you see "Humanity Fuck Yeah" everywhere, but you're clearly on the opposite end of the spectrum, which I'd argue is way, way worse.

Because if I look at your posts I see that "Edelgard is evil because she wants humans to rule" and people who support her are sick and just want mankind on top of everything. And now you're telling me that Rhea needed to obliterate humans a lot sooner. So I understand that humanity has done some pretty bad things, but you do realize you're a human being as well don't you? And that erasing the species is probably not a very sane nor good approach?

[NobodiePichu]

those who slither in the dark suffer both from a case of 'did you really need to be here' and 'your only here to make X character look good in comparison arent you?', which compounds to make them weirdly relevant to events yet also unimportant. simply rolling them into the flame emperor army proper would solve the issue of their presence especially in part 1 but it also has the issue of making edelgard look worse morally if they arent just some weirdos shes allied with for convenience but full on subordinates. By keeping the most morally reprehensible acts off of her by shifting them onto a third party it makes edelgard look better as a person, even if the act of allying with TWSD at all is questionable to begin with, if she isnt directly responsible for those acts and can grumble about it the entire time well still retaining her light yagami lelouch title of villain protagonist. conversely if you retain those who slither in the dark but also put edelgard in a more active role in regards to her distaste for them earlier it really does elect the question of 'why didnt you go about this in a more conventional and less evil manner to begin with, are you some kind of moron?'

so arguably its a damned if ya do damned if ya dont kinda deal.

i suppose if ya wanted to deal with it in some way you could:

1. give edelgard a genuine 'oh shit what have i done?' moment during the war phase about her alliance with TWSD, say by having the faerghaus capital destroyed earlier in the story by dubstep missiles and capping the story off with an actual all out attack to destroy TWSD that they player interacts with to give a proper sense of closure to the story and as edelgards personal 'repentance' for taking the bloodied road she did in order to achieve her goals. maybe wreck the imperial capital as well just to give a greater sense of cost (say by having TWSD destroy it to quash edelgard now that shes outlived her usefulness or a bit earlier by an absolutely livid dimitri trying to enact some form of revenge for the lost people of his home)

2 . just role TWSD into the flame emperor army proper and go all in on making edelgard a villain protagonist and magnificent bastard the likes of which leolouch and light yagami can be proud of at villain protagonist parties. of course this also comes with the caviet of her failing in her goals in some way due to her roles nature but still i feel it would be more entertaining and interesting to see in action

3 . role the flame emperors army into TWSD instead and have them pulling the strings from the back to engulf the continent in a three way devastating war that would wipe out the usurpers of what rightfully belonged to them, and instead of becoming the flame emperor edelgard is just another person who got strung up in their web of deceit and lies and was hurt because of it.

[Eryon]

6 minutes ago, timon said:

You're going around calling people out because you see "Humanity Fuck Yeah" everywhere, but you're clearly on the opposite end of the spectrum, which I'd argue is way, way worse.

Because if I look at your posts I see that "Edelgard is evil because she wants humans to rule" and people who support her are sick and just want mankind on top of everything. And now you're telling me that Rhea needed to obliterate humans a lot sooner. So I understand that humanity has done some pretty bad things, but you do realize you're a human being as well don't you? And that erasing the species is probably not a very sane nor good approach?

I speak nothing of wiping out mankind (Rhea should be above such filthy behavior). I do speak of recognizing human depravity and planning accordingly rather than just sitting back and letting said human depravity fester until World War Edelgard happens. See her shameful decision to turn Nemesis' minions into saints despite them being party to extermination. This among other decisions left a cut on Fodlan that rotted until the limb had to be removed.

[Crysta]

What exactly do you suggest she do?

I'm convinced it'll just make World War Edelgard happen even sooner - much how like completely gutting Germany in WWI helped actual Hitler - but I'm curious. 

[OsFalchion]

I think that the Agarthans are a race of evil Xanes, and aren’t actually human like Rhea thinks they are.

[Eryon]

6 hours ago, Crysta said:

What exactly do you suggest she do?

Well for one, she could have made sure once Nemesis and his followers were put to death that their names be cursed instead of most them turned into damn saints (it'd be like a Jewish man declaring to condemn Hitler but make Joseph Goebbels and Heinreich Himmer saints). Look into acquiring their crests when doable for them to be kept safely in the watch of her and allies. Arrange for her Holy Bible to preach that men are not to use or study the crests without the grace of the goddess and/or her spokeman.

6 hours ago, Crysta said:

I'm convinced it'll just make World War Edelgard happen even sooner - much how like completely gutting Germany in WWI helped actual Hitler - but I'm curious. 

Modern Germany doesn't celebrate its history in WW1 to WW2 and paid reparations to those they terrorized under Hitler. Rhea in the end showed she didn't have her surviving kind's honor and keeping the humans from ruining the continent as her top priority, just stalling for time until she could find a way to get her mother back.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Eryon

[Jotari]

Legit thought Solon and Thales were the same guy, they each have so little presence.

[Jotari]

On 8/24/2019 at 5:36 PM, CyberNinja said:

Why can't I divine pulse to ace every conversation like a sociopath?

 

[SpiceMan]

A lot of character motives in Three houses could be fulfilled if everyone just talked to each other and became Allies. 

- Have Edelgard and Dimitri marry and therefore fuse Empire and Kingdom into one Country.

- Claude can freely fuck off to Almyra to be King there like he does in every other route while giving the Alliance to Edelgard and Dimitri.

- Byleth inherits title of Archbishop from Rhea.

This setup fulfils most of what everyone was trying to accomplish.

Edelgard gets a united Fodlan and since she is the ruler she and Dimitri can work on Fixing the Noble System, Keeping Crests but using Hanneman and Linhardt's research to make them less mandatory and detrimental to life. Since they rule the world they can Gangbang TWSITD pretty easily to eliminate them and Since Byleth is now the Archbishop Edelgard doesn't have to wage war on the church or kill Rhea because Byleth could reform it to be less Harmful, and the church being around does more good than destroying it which Edelgard considers in her Manuela supports.

Dimitri mainly just wanted to bring order back to Faerghus and of course, to get revenge on the people responsible for the Tragedy of Duscur. Unifying Fodlan would definitely bring order to Faerghus and If it was explained properly to him that Edelgard wasn't involved and that Lord Arundel was the cause of it, Dimitri would gladly go after TWSITD to get his revenge, since he trusts Edelgard deeply and truly doesn't want to hurt her either. Also him and Edelgard get a nice bonus of Marrying each other since they both have implied love for each other.

Claude would get his goal of Bye Bye Racism because as Edelgard mentions in her Paralogue, she also wants to become friends with foreign countries in the future. Dimitri would also agree with this as he has seen the racism towards Duscur and finds it disgusting and so would 100% support this endeavour.

And Finally Rhea wanted to A) Bring Mummy back and B) Make Byleth the new archbishop because she was tired of this shit. Of Course A) Partially fails but she would still be fine with Byleth becoming the Archbishop as she mentions this a lot and it actually happens in Azure Moon. 

Of Course this isn't a criticism of the story at all, because to get all the lords to have an open and honest conversation with each other would be hard to orchestrate (Mainly because of Edelgard trust issues). There is a chance of it happening but it might require to much hindsight and open thinking to actually realistically pull of. Still fun to think about though especially as it results in Dimitri x Edelgard which is something I need to happen in my life after my Blue lions playthrough. 

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, SpiceMan said:

A lot of character motives in Three houses could be fulfilled if everyone just talked to each other and became Allies. 

- Have Edelgard and Dimitri marry and therefore fuse Empire and Kingdom into one Country.

- Claude can freely fuck off to Almyra to be King there like he does in every other route while giving the Alliance to Edelgard and Dimitri.

- Byleth inherits title of Archbishop from Rhea.

This setup fulfils most of what everyone was trying to accomplish.

Edelgard gets a united Fodlan and since she is the ruler she and Dimitri can work on Fixing the Noble System, Keeping Crests but using Hanneman and Linhardt's research to make them less mandatory and detrimental to life. Since they rule the world they can Gangbang TWSITD pretty easily to eliminate them and Since Byleth is now the Archbishop Edelgard doesn't have to wage war on the church or kill Rhea because Byleth could reform it to be less Harmful, and the church being around does more good than destroying it which Edelgard considers in her Manuela supports.

Dimitri mainly just wanted to bring order back to Faerghus and of course, to get revenge on the people responsible for the Tragedy of Duscur. Unifying Fodlan would definitely bring order to Faerghus and If it was explained properly to him that Edelgard wasn't involved and that Lord Arundel was the cause of it, Dimitri would gladly go after TWSITD to get his revenge, since he trusts Edelgard deeply and truly doesn't want to hurt her either. Also him and Edelgard get a nice bonus of Marrying each other since they both have implied love for each other.

Claude would get his goal of Bye Bye Racism because as Edelgard mentions in her Paralogue, she also wants to become friends with foreign countries in the future. Dimitri would also agree with this as he has seen the racism towards Duscur and finds it disgusting and so would 100% support this endeavour.

And Finally Rhea wanted to A) Bring Mummy back and B) Make Byleth the new archbishop because she was tired of this shit. Of Course A) Partially fails but she would still be fine with Byleth becoming the Archbishop as she mentions this a lot and it actually happens in Azure Moon. 

Of Course this isn't a criticism of the story at all, because to get all the lords to have an open and honest conversation with each other would be hard to orchestrate (Mainly because of Edelgard trust issues). There is a chance of it happening but it might require to much hindsight and open thinking to actually realistically pull of. Still fun to think about though especially as it results in Dimitri x Edelgard which is something I need to happen in my life after my Blue lions playthrough. 

The fact that this is a fudealistic society (possibly the most fudealistic out of any setting we've seen) and she doesn't consider marriage as an option for expanding her power is actually kind of weird. Hell it's kind of weird that arranged marriages aren't more of a thing in any Fire Emblem. Closest would be Genealogy where some of the villains seem to be paired up based on politics rather than affection. Heroes still get to marry whomever they want because dating sim though. I guess Genalogy and it's limited examples aside, Fire Emblem culture just places more emphasis on individual pursuit than family service. Not super weird in light of the fact that there's universal equality of opportunity in combat roles (class restrictions aside, if women want to fight then they get no argument from the system in any of these worlds).

Edited September 1, 2019 by Jotari

[Sid Starkiller]

48 minutes ago, SpiceMan said:

A lot of character motives in Three houses could be fulfilled if everyone just talked to each other and became Allies. 

- Have Edelgard and Dimitri marry and therefore fuse Empire and Kingdom into one Country. 

- Claude can freely fuck off to Almyra to be King there like he does in every other route while giving the Alliance to Edelgard and Dimitri.

- Byleth inherits title of Archbishop from Rhea.

This setup fulfils most of what everyone was trying to accomplish.

Edelgard gets a united Fodlan and since she is the ruler she and Dimitri can work on Fixing the Noble System, Keeping Crests but using Hanneman and Linhardt's research to make them less mandatory and detrimental to life. Since they rule the world they can Gangbang TWSITD pretty easily to eliminate them and Since Byleth is now the Archbishop Edelgard doesn't have to wage war on the church or kill Rhea because Byleth could reform it to be less Harmful, and the church being around does more good than destroying it which Edelgard considers in her Manuela supports.

Dimitri mainly just wanted to bring order back to Faerghus and of course, to get revenge on the people responsible for the Tragedy of Duscur. Unifying Fodlan would definitely bring order to Faerghus and If it was explained properly to him that Edelgard wasn't involved and that Lord Arundel was the cause of it, Dimitri would gladly go after TWSITD to get his revenge, since he trusts Edelgard deeply and truly doesn't want to hurt her either. Also him and Edelgard get a nice bonus of Marrying each other since they both have implied love for each other.

Claude would get his goal of Bye Bye Racism because as Edelgard mentions in her Paralogue, she also wants to become friends with foreign countries in the future. Dimitri would also agree with this as he has seen the racism towards Duscur and finds it disgusting and so would 100% support this endeavour.

And Finally Rhea wanted to A) Bring Mummy back and B) Make Byleth the new archbishop because she was tired of this shit. Of Course A) Partially fails but she would still be fine with Byleth becoming the Archbishop as she mentions this a lot and it actually happens in Azure Moon. 

Of Course this isn't a criticism of the story at all, because to get all the lords to have an open and honest conversation with each other would be hard to orchestrate (Mainly because of Edelgard trust issues). There is a chance of it happening but it might require to much hindsight and open thinking to actually realistically pull of. Still fun to think about though especially as it results in Dimitri x Edelgard which is something I need to happen in my life after my Blue lions playthrough. 

1: Dimitri blames Edelgard for the death of his mother due to the manipulations of Slither. Would YOU marry your mother's killer?

2: Rhea's mission isn't done. Yeah Sothis inhabits Byleth's body, but she's not the one in control. Was giving them the Sword of the Creator and seating them on Sothis's throne not intending to awaken her mother in control of Byleth's body?

[timon]

1 hour ago, SpiceMan said:

A lot of character motives in Three houses could be fulfilled if everyone just talked to each other and became Allies. 

- Have Edelgard and Dimitri marry and therefore fuse Empire and Kingdom into one Country.

- Claude can freely fuck off to Almyra to be King there like he does in every other route while giving the Alliance to Edelgard and Dimitri.

- Byleth inherits title of Archbishop from Rhea.

This setup fulfils most of what everyone was trying to accomplish.

Edelgard gets a united Fodlan and since she is the ruler she and Dimitri can work on Fixing the Noble System, Keeping Crests but using Hanneman and Linhardt's research to make them less mandatory and detrimental to life. Since they rule the world they can Gangbang TWSITD pretty easily to eliminate them and Since Byleth is now the Archbishop Edelgard doesn't have to wage war on the church or kill Rhea because Byleth could reform it to be less Harmful, and the church being around does more good than destroying it which Edelgard considers in her Manuela supports.

Dimitri mainly just wanted to bring order back to Faerghus and of course, to get revenge on the people responsible for the Tragedy of Duscur. Unifying Fodlan would definitely bring order to Faerghus and If it was explained properly to him that Edelgard wasn't involved and that Lord Arundel was the cause of it, Dimitri would gladly go after TWSITD to get his revenge, since he trusts Edelgard deeply and truly doesn't want to hurt her either. Also him and Edelgard get a nice bonus of Marrying each other since they both have implied love for each other.

Claude would get his goal of Bye Bye Racism because as Edelgard mentions in her Paralogue, she also wants to become friends with foreign countries in the future. Dimitri would also agree with this as he has seen the racism towards Duscur and finds it disgusting and so would 100% support this endeavour.

And Finally Rhea wanted to A) Bring Mummy back and B) Make Byleth the new archbishop because she was tired of this shit. Of Course A) Partially fails but she would still be fine with Byleth becoming the Archbishop as she mentions this a lot and it actually happens in Azure Moon. 

Of Course this isn't a criticism of the story at all, because to get all the lords to have an open and honest conversation with each other would be hard to orchestrate (Mainly because of Edelgard trust issues). There is a chance of it happening but it might require to much hindsight and open thinking to actually realistically pull of. Still fun to think about though especially as it results in Dimitri x Edelgard which is something I need to happen in my life after my Blue lions playthrough. 

It's one of those cases where it would make sense, but it would make too much sense for the game.

It would've still been a great story, but they'd obviously have to drop the core a big part of the principles they built 3H upon, which are fighting people you know and the impact of the player's choices.

Also @Sid Starkiller I disagree on Edelgard and Dimitri, they'd talk it out before he goes insane, we know there's a good deal of affection between them, and especially on Dimitri's side. If she could make him see the truth I don't see why they'd ever be enemies, they care for each other and share their ideals. On a side note I agree with SpiceMan, I need Dimitri/Edelgard support to exist, it would do so much for both the characters.

And Rhea would be okay with it, outside of CF where she doesn't go completely insane she's okay with Byleth being Byleth if they have the goddess's powers, so I don't think it'd be a problem. Then again, in a route where all 3 lords come together I'm not sure there'd be space for the CoS to remain much relevant.

[NobodiePichu]

33 minutes ago, Sid Starkiller said:

1: Dimitri blames Edelgard for the death of his mother due to the manipulations of Slither. Would YOU marry your mother's killer?

thing is, he only blames her specifically for their deaths because of her time spent as the flame emperor and her alliance with TWSD. If she just sat down and talked to him she probably could get him on her side without too much issue, or at least get his tacit support for her goals and save fodlan from a bloody five year war.

[Jotari]

If Edelgard was really interested in this whole continental conquest gig, then she would have jumped Dimitri's bones and seduced him from day one of school, before he has any reason to hate her. Given her confident and calculating personality, I'm sure she would have been capable of it.

[Crysta]

Indeed, a great many blood conflicts could be avoided if people got together and just talked through their issues.

Unfortunately, two of our three lords are terrible at coping with trauma and suck at communication.