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Talk about IT'S BYLETH, STOP MAKING THREADS in Smash here

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87 members have voted

  1. 1. what do you think, the readership

    • I love Byleth!
    • I love Byleth, but not here!
    • What the fuck!


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2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I am fine whit that as long as it's aknowledged and people don't act like Fire Emblem does not receive a preferential treatment. 

Because we have 3 Links whit very similar movesets. If link was reworked, they could change a bit Young Link so he play like the Link we had since 64. As they are, i feel 3 links are reduntant.

Doing the same whit mario and Dr. Mario is an option, but i feel that you can't really do justice to Cappy in smash, because possessing other players is too hax.

And that's a totally separate problem. 

 

In a Smash reboot, Young/Toon Link and Dr. Mario would be among my first cuts of choice (after combining all the Marth clones into costumes, of course.)

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Long have I been of the opinion that Toon Link should have just been called Young Link. Toon Link is a silly name.

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24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Long have I been of the opinion that Toon Link should have just been called Young Link. Toon Link is a silly name.

Okay I don’t know the deep end of the Zelda lore, but I’m pretty sure that distinction is made because those Links technically aren’t the same character. Young Link is the Link you play as in Ocarina of Time and Majora Mask, while Toon Link is an entirely different person you play as in Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks. That’d be like calling Ike “Roy” because the former replaced the latter at one point but are both headband wearing protagonists of the same series. 

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14 minutes ago, Silverly said:

Okay I don’t know the deep end of the Zelda lore, but I’m pretty sure that distinction is made because those Links technically aren’t the same character. Young Link is the Link you play as in Ocarina of Time and Majora Mask, while Toon Link is an entirely different person you play as in Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks. That’d be like calling Ike “Roy” because the former replaced the latter at one point but are both headband wearing protagonists of the same series. 

To be fair, the ST Link isn’t even the same character as the WW/PT Link either, as his journey takes place a century after his predecessor’s.

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58 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Couldn't one also use this logic to say Shulk and Rex represent main series Xenoblade while X isn't deserving of representation as its a spin off, just like there's no expectation to put a Tokyo Mirage Session character in Smash.

Fair point, although I will say that the cases are a bit different for two reasons:

  1. Tokyo Mirage Sessions is a crossover, with no illusions of being anything more than a fun crossover. By contrast, XCX is designed with grander ambitions, including a sequel hook and everything. 
  2. Tokyo Mirage Sessions is a controversial acclaimed-flop. 

 

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

But them, kirby has definitly a generation shift when Bandana Dee start appearing, but he is not in, neither any of those newcomers. Pokemon does not have a rep per generation. Botw is not properly represented for being such a new direction in the Zelda franchise, even if just with a proper botw link that uses the statis and champion powers. And so on.

It's either that Fire emblem is treater more favourably, or everything else is treated in a worse way than they deserve.

What a false dichotomy. As I said before, when it comes to representation in Smash Bros., it all comes down to context. 

I can't really say anything about Kirby, as my experience with the series is limited to renting the air ride game and playing a friend's copy of the N64 game. 

Pokémon is an odd case; I wouldn't really call it overrepresented or underrepresented, but it is very oddly represented.

  • Pikachu and Mewtwo are obvious: both of them are pretty much staples of the Pokémon series. 
  • Pokémon Trainer is a neat way to incorporate some of the different Pokémon-Battling mechanics.
  • Lucario and Greninja were added because they're Breakout Characters: TV Tropes' name for when a character becomes unexpectedly very popular and appears more often (particularly in other media) as a result. 
  • Pichu was Melee's surprise joke character. 

Individually, each of these fighters had very good reason to be in Ultimate (notice for that reason that I didn't list Incineroar; Decidueye FTW), but, when considered as a whole, they are a mess. 

One thing that struck me as odd back during Smash 4 was that, with Charizard flying solo and Greninja being added, there was a water starter and a fire starter, but there was no grass starter. That would've been a good time for some gen 3 representation through Sceptile (as gen 5's grass starter would be hard to implement; being a snake). 

As for Link not being 'BOTW enough', they already made him right-handed (a blight which better be undone in the next Zelda game); what more do you want (rhetorical)?

Semi-jokes aside, I can see where you're coming from, but I agree with Etheus that it was better that they played it safe (which I wish they had thought about before changing his handedness). I personally would've used magnesis to replace the clawshot; seeing as they were planning to get rid of the clawshot anyway. I also would've given Young Link something from Majora's Mask; not much, but just one thing; probably Fierce Deity Link as the Final Smash. 

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My reaction ? Well...

"Another character from the latest Fire Emblem" => Gee what a novel idea.
"Another swordsman" => Ahh shit here we go again... is what i'd say if Byleth did not have a whip sword and had some nice tricks like Corrin with his penis arm.
"Heroes Relic" => AAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWW YEAH !
"How you use them, with the direction of the pad" => Uhhhh, I'm going to be terrible at this.

Honestly I accepted that swordsmen are a stable of smash, I mean Sword Mii is there for a reason. No problems for me.
I really liked the trailer, you can feel the warmth and passion in it.

One thing tho, no God Shattering Star. Unforgivable.

And I don't like the final smash, nyeh !

Edited by B.Leu

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ok so now that i've digested most of my salt and assumed enough sodium for a whole month (rip my heart), i had this thought:

i get those dimitri, edelgard and claude skins, sothis's one is ok too i guess, but were the super sayan skins really necessary?

i would've honestly preferred two skins based on rhea and jeralt over these two, they feel so uninspired, also that reference is already in his final smash so i really fail to understand the reason behind this

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On a different note, how does everyone feel about Byleth's viability.

 

On one hand, he/she packs a lot of reach, and having a sword all but guarantees high tier or better in ultimate. 

 

On the other hand, he/she has no defensive utility or mobility skills whatsoever. It could make them easy to outplay or poke from a distance.

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20 minutes ago, Etheus said:

On a different note, how does everyone feel about Byleth's viability. On one hand, he/she packs a lot of reach, and having a sword all but guarantees high tier or better in ultimate. On the other hand, he/she has no defensive utility or mobility skills whatsoever. It could make them easy to outplay or poke from a distance.

1) If it's easier, you could just say "they" instead of "he/she"; "they" can be used as a singular pronoun when referring to the person explicitly gender-neutrally.

As for Byleth's potential viability. Hm... I'm not the best at judging viability, but I'll do my best:

In terms of recovery, Byleth suffers from not having much jump range as well as relying on their up special being able to grab an opponent or a ledge, as otherwise, it's about as useful for recovery as Yoshi's up special. They also seem to be a fairly heavy unit, which means that they will fall quickly. 

Byleth is definitely not lacking in KO potential, their attacks have excellent reach for the most part, and they seem to have decent aerial attacks. However, they seem like they will suffer heavily from exploitability. A lot of their most powerful attacks seem to be easily exploitable: for example, their down special is cancelled by grabbing (what else is new) as well as counters, and their standard special is also a relatively basic ranged attack with a lot of start lag; making it exploitable even by those without reflectors. 

Overall, Byleth seems like a character with a lot of offensive potential, but little to help them when they're on the defensive. If an opponent can reliably counter and exploit their attacks, they are in for a world of hurt. Basically, don't put Byleth against Palutena.

Edited by vanguard333

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7 hours ago, Silverly said:

Okay I don’t know the deep end of the Zelda lore, but I’m pretty sure that distinction is made because those Links technically aren’t the same character. Young Link is the Link you play as in Ocarina of Time and Majora Mask, while Toon Link is an entirely different person you play as in Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks. That’d be like calling Ike “Roy” because the former replaced the latter at one point but are both headband wearing protagonists of the same series. 

None of the Link's are the same character. When Melee was released they used Ocarina of Time Link and Majora's Mask Link, calling them Link and Young Link respectively. When Brawl was released they used Twilight Princess Link and Wind Waker Link. I think they should have just kept the same naming pattern and called Wind Waker Link Young Link. There were just as many differences between Toon Link and Young Link as there were between Twilight Princess Link and Ocarina of Time Link.

6 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Fair point, although I will say that the cases are a bit different for two reasons:

  1. Tokyo Mirage Sessions is a crossover, with no illusions of being anything more than a fun crossover. By contrast, XCX is designed with grander ambitions, including a sequel hook and everything. 
  2. Tokyo Mirage Sessions is a controversial acclaimed-flop. 

 

What a false dichotomy. As I said before, when it comes to representation in Smash Bros., it all comes down to context. 

I can't really say anything about Kirby, as my experience with the series is limited to renting the air ride game and playing a friend's copy of the N64 game. 

Pokémon is an odd case; I wouldn't really call it overrepresented or underrepresented, but it is very oddly represented.

  • Pikachu and Mewtwo are obvious: both of them are pretty much staples of the Pokémon series. 
  • Pokémon Trainer is a neat way to incorporate some of the different Pokémon-Battling mechanics.
  • Lucario and Greninja were added because they're Breakout Characters: TV Tropes' name for when a character becomes unexpectedly very popular and appears more often (particularly in other media) as a result. 
  • Pichu was Melee's surprise joke character. 

Individually, each of these fighters had very good reason to be in Ultimate (notice for that reason that I didn't list Incineroar; Decidueye FTW), but, when considered as a whole, they are a mess. 

One thing that struck me as odd back during Smash 4 was that, with Charizard flying solo and Greninja being added, there was a water starter and a fire starter, but there was no grass starter. That would've been a good time for some gen 3 representation through Sceptile (as gen 5's grass starter would be hard to implement; being a snake). 

As for Link not being 'BOTW enough', they already made him right-handed (a blight which better be undone in the next Zelda game); what more do you want (rhetorical)?

Semi-jokes aside, I can see where you're coming from, but I agree with Etheus that it was better that they played it safe (which I wish they had thought about before changing his handedness). I personally would've used magnesis to replace the clawshot; seeing as they were planning to get rid of the clawshot anyway. I also would've given Young Link something from Majora's Mask; not much, but just one thing; probably Fierce Deity Link as the Final Smash. 

This is largely true for Xenoblade Chronicles X. It underperformed. And of these two games, one of them has just released a Switch Port while the other seems to be forgotten, it's sequel hook going nowhere.

Edited by Jotari

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14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

This is largely true for Xenoblade Chronicles X. It underperformed. And of these two games, one of them has just released a Switch Port while the other seems to be forgotten, it's sequel hook going nowhere.

Yeah; it underperformed... though not nearly as badly. 

As for the Switch port thing, Takahashi: the head of Monolith Soft, has said that he would love to see a Switch port of Xenoblade Chronicles X, but "money" is an issue, and they're having trouble reconfiguring it for the Switch due to the game's sheer size (remember that the game needed four free-to-download packs to run optimally, and its open world is bigger than Breath of the Wild).

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48 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah; it underperformed... though not nearly as badly. 

As for the Switch port thing, Takahashi: the head of Monolith Soft, has said that he would love to see a Switch port of Xenoblade Chronicles X, but "money" is an issue, and they're having trouble reconfiguring it for the Switch due to the game's sheer size (remember that the game needed four free-to-download packs to run optimally, and its open world is bigger than Breath of the Wild).

And I'd hazard a guess as that's precisely why it underperformed more than TMS. It was clearly a much bigger project with much more investment in it that didn't live up to its potential. While TMS, I doubt anyone thought that was going to make waves and they were probably satisfied, if not impressed, with its sales. If it really did all that badly then they wouldn't waste any money porting it to Switch.

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@Jotari In any case, we should probably stop talking about Xenoblade X, since this is supposed to be a thread about Byleth. 

To that end, I still think Byleth should've been like Pokémon Trainer, but I'll probably still get Byleth. What would you have preferred:

  • What we got
  • Byleth alone, but different in some way
  • Edelgard alone
  • Dimitri alone
  • Claude alone
  • Byleth as Three Houses Trainer

 

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20 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

@Jotari In any case, we should probably stop talking about Xenoblade X, since this is supposed to be a thread about Byleth. 

To that end, I still think Byleth should've been like Pokémon Trainer, but I'll probably still get Byleth. What would you have preferred:

  • What we got
  • Byleth alone, but different in some way
  • Edelgard alone
  • Dimitri alone
  • Claude alone
  • Byleth as Three Houses Trainer

 

Celica as a Robin alt. Seriously, giving her the same moveset as Robin only exchanging limited tome use for a minor HP drain would be a really simple and easy way to make a moveset that would change the character in some distinct ways. Very similar to Marth and Lucina. I can understand why it won't happen though. They're not generous enough to put in the work and give it away for free, and if they charge anything, even a reduced price, people would bitch about wanting a full character instead of an Echo even if it would be much easier to make.

Edited by Jotari

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I forgot to comment about my opinion now that I watched the direct but I honestly think that the whining about the Byleths being just another sword user are ridiculous when a lot of their moveset doesn't even use it or it's used more like a whip than a traditional sword.

Anyways, I think Byleth's moveset is solid and looks fun. The only complaints I have is no gauntlets or gambits which where one of the more interesting additions to Three Houses and the lack of Divine Pulse although I have trouble seeing how they would have implemented that without it being another counter so maybe that was for the best. Oh the bland final smash was also a letdown but it's whatever.

I also think the lords should have been alt costumes since Byleth already uses their weapons. M/F Byleth and Pre/Post timeskip lords would have fit the 8 alt slots perfectly.

17 hours ago, B.Leu said:

God Shattering Star.

The first thing I looked for when they showed of what tracks were being added. Truly the blight of the direct.

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For me the thing about sword is far more a "flavour" thing rather than a moveset thing. And is mostly about the fact that melee weapons that are not swords  pretty much don't have a character. Fire emblem is the one best pool to draw from non sword users, so it's very annoying that it never happen even when reasonable options exist (Ephraim and Hector imo are not, because they were released too late for Melee and too early for Brawl. Azura, Edelgard, Dimitri, Claude or even Tiki are characters that imo could have been added over at some point.)

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25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Celica as a Robin alt. Seriously, giving her the same moveset as Robin only exchanging limited tome use for a minor HP drain would be a really simple and easy way to make a moveset that would change the character in some distinct ways. Very similar to Marth and Lucina. I can understand why it won't happen though. They're not generous enough to put in the work and give it away for free, and if they charge anything, even a reduced price, people would bitch about wanting a full character instead of an Echo even if it would be much easier to make.

Interesting. They should've done that instead of Chrom. 

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On 1/16/2020 at 7:45 PM, vanguard333 said:

At least XC2 fans got an expansion of the story, plenty of DLC, and Rex as a Mii Costume. You want to know what Nintendo has given to us XCX fans? Nada; zip, zilch. Be grateful you got that stuff. But yes, it must be absolutely terrible to see Nintendo give the cold shoulder to you guys like that (sarcasm). 

Haven't been able to log on recently and I know you said you were done talking about it but as this was partly addressed to me I wanted to have a chance to respond:

Yes, I acknowledge that in comparison to XCX, XC2 has gotten much more love in general with the Torna dlc pack and a bit more representation so far in smash (though until Rex/Pyra get in I dont really consider it THAT much more representation since both games have about the same number of spirits and music tracks afaik). Of course imo considering how well XC2 did I still think it deserves all the love it's gotten. My point was that for a game that had everything going for it, knowing that it had every reason to be in (relevancy, high selling, popular, very unique potential moveset and playstyle, one of the few new characters that would represent a best selling game that debuted and is exclusive on the Switch), the fact that it didn't make it in by only barely missing the original cut is a very special kind of disappointment for me. It's not the same kind I would feel for a character or game that I had next to no expectations to get in, and therefore wouldn't be overly hyped for. And the mii costume only made me feel worse since at the time since I felt that it kind of soft confirmed that he wouldn't be getting into this iteration of smash, which would then put him into the same situation as Elma come next XC and smash game, as I explained before.

Still, despite my preference for XC2, I do recognize that XCX has been unfairly forgotten and underrepresented in Nintendo stuff in general. I'd say it's more because it was unfortunately released exclusively on an unpopular console that not as many owned. While I'm hyped for XC1 remake, I feel XCX should've gotten a port first to help with its obscurity issue. Sorry for rambling though, just my 2 cents.

On topic: I havent played much of smash since release due to life and just not feeling like I found a main in ultimate (they changed the play style of what I used to main, and no other character really clicked for me). But since I already have the fighters pass, and (no joke) this is the first DLC character that actually interests me from both moveset and connection with source game, how hard does it look like for a relative casual player to pick up and main Byleth for anyone that knows this stuff? I knew I wasnt going to be interested in smash again until they released a character I wanted to play, and while there still are more hype choices on my wishlist, she's the first one I actually feel like picking up smash again for.

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28 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Interesting. They should've done that instead of Chrom. 

I agree. And Shadows of Valentia's trailer was released two years before Ultimate, so the timing for it was rather perfect. I guess they just never thought of it. Either that or people really wanted Chrom and peer pressure ensued.

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9 minutes ago, Silver Lightning said:

Haven't been able to log on recently and I know you said you were done talking about it but as this was partly addressed to me I wanted to have a chance to respond:

Yes, I acknowledge that in comparison to XCX, XC2 has gotten much more love in general with the Torna dlc pack and a bit more representation so far in smash (though until Rex/Pyra get in I dont really consider it THAT much more representation since both games have about the same number of spirits and music tracks afaik). Of course imo considering how well XC2 did I still think it deserves all the love it's gotten. My point was that for a game that had everything going for it, knowing that it had every reason to be in (relevancy, high selling, popular, very unique potential moveset and playstyle, one of the few new characters that would represent a best selling game that debuted and is exclusive on the Switch), the fact that it didn't make it in by only barely missing the original cut is a very special kind of disappointment for me. It's not the same kind I would feel for a character or game that I had next to no expectations to get in, and therefore wouldn't be overly hyped for. And the mii costume only made me feel worse since at the time since I felt that it kind of soft confirmed that he wouldn't be getting into this iteration of smash, which would then put him into the same situation as Elma come next XC and smash game, as I explained before.

Still, despite my preference for XC2, I do recognize that XCX has been unfairly forgotten and underrepresented in Nintendo stuff in general. I'd say it's more because it was unfortunately released exclusively on an unpopular console that not as many owned. While I'm hyped for XC1 remake, I feel XCX should've gotten a port first to help with its obscurity issue. Sorry for rambling though, just my 2 cents.

On topic: I havent played much of smash since release due to life and just not feeling like I found a main in ultimate (they changed the play style of what I used to main, and no other character really clicked for me). But since I already have the fighters pass, and (no joke) this is the first DLC character that actually interests me from both moveset and connection with source game, how hard does it look like for a relative casual player to pick up and main Byleth for anyone that knows this stuff? I knew I wasnt going to be interested in smash again until they released a character I wanted to play, and while there still are more hype choices on my wishlist, she's the first one I actually feel like picking up smash again for.

I wouldn't say its exclusively that. Many people are of the opinion that it just wasn't all that great a game. Even among Wii U sales it didn't prove to be a top seller.

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I wouldn't say its exclusively that. Many people are of the opinion that it just wasn't all that great a game. Even among Wii U sales it didn't prove to be a top seller.

I think is a combination of WiiU and people coming expecting a game like Xenoblade instead of what it turned out being. I still think it was great for what it was and deserve a chance on the switch now that the misconception is cleared. 

Edited by Flere210

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This seems to be an unpopular opinion, but I think picking Byleth and giving them the lords' Heroes' Relics is probably the best realistic outcome we could have gotten (adding three characters isn't a realistic outcome). And we finally got a FE stage that's actually based on a FE location, which is nice since Arena Ferox barely counts. We are also fortunate enough for the stage to be graced by the presence of Lorenz Hellman Gloucester and the almighty Gatekeeper himself.

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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Interesting. They should've done that instead of Chrom. 

*In addition to Chrom.

 

Thanks.

 

- A Chrom main.

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18 minutes ago, Etheus said:

*In addition to Chrom.

 

Thanks.

 

- A Chrom main.

Can you imagine the salt if they had added in YeT aNoThEr FiRe EmBlEm ChArAcTeR, regardless of how unique they are as seen demonstrated recently?

Of course I love that Chrom is in despite everything, and I'm all for delicious salt from people who seem to irrationally hate FE just because of smash, but I like to think of other people too lol

Edited by Silver Lightning

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