Is Henning really a bad boss?

[Jotari]

So a Fire Emblem youtuber called Mekkah released a video about the top 10 worst Fire Embelm bosses the other day. One boss on the list was Henning, the boss who guards Durandel in Sword of Seals. And it made me recall an argument back in the day about Henning where one user said they actually liked Henning as he provides a challenge, but not an insurmountable one that they wish more Fire Embelm bosses would provide. And I found myself agreeing. I never really had that much trouble with Henning (and yeah I play Hard Mode before that's a question). You can bait him into using hand axes and then Rutger take care of him, or keep him using the Steel Blade and pick him off from afar using rescue drop tactics to ensure he never gets an enemy phase attack in. Hell in my FE6 hack I gave him Durandel to use and it barely made a difference due to forcing him to use the hand axe. But he's obviously provides a lot of trouble for a lot of people, I've heard people saying stuff like early promoting Rutger is a requirement for beating him. I feel it's a complex enough a topic that it's worth it's own dedicated thread. So what do you think of Henning?

Edited October 8, 2020 by Jotari

[Benice]

I've also never found him that bad, at least compared to some others-Leygance was worse than him IMO. Lugh always was decent enough to deal with him, and if I earlypromoted him, he very capably removed Henning. He is annoying as heck, but not as bad as advertised.

[joevar]

All gaiden chapter in FE6 seems to give you a challenge (or it was meant to?), but i dont recall the durandal one being the worst. if it did i would remember it. CMIIW, he's still just another boss who wouldnt move from his throne spot right?

[henrymidfields]

While my memories are a bit rusty on this, I can kind of see the potential issues. I think I remember Henning having high speed at this particular point in the game, so there's not a lot of your units that can avoid being double-attacked by Henning, let alone you double-attacking him. Not to mention the fact that his high speed also results in a high dodge rate. I don't remember even Marcus being much help with this particular boss... In other words, your choices are somewhat limited.

[Hello72207]

I have done a few ironmans of FE6. One of which Rutger and Dieck died before the end of chapter 8x. Let me tell you this, without those two, Henning is a nightmare. Zealot has 30-40 hit with an iron lance even when he has the steel blade, and deals barely any damage. If I hadn't had a trained Lugh that could slowly whittle him down, I would have lost. I would have run out of heal staves and been unable to do that ironman there and then. I like bosses that are tough, but Henning's problem is that without one or two characters trained he becomes extremely difficult to nigh impossible to fight.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Hello72207

[German FE Nino]

Thronebosses in FE6 in general are an issue. For example the first boss in the game, damas, is basically designed around clapping him away with marcus in hardmode and the only reason people do not have to do that is that axes are inaccurate in the game. No idea why mekkah singled out henning, but yeah, earlygame FE6 has a bossproblem. It is not a challenge, it is just kinda dumb. If people like to have to avoid the bosses until they die, then that is fine, but this is just my opinion.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, German FE Nino said:

Thronebosses in FE6 in general are an issue. For example the first boss in the game, damas, is basically designed around clapping him away with marcus in hardmode and the only reason people do not have to do that is that axes are inaccurate in the game. No idea why mekkah singled out henning, but yeah, earlygame FE6 has a bossproblem. It is not a challenge, it is just kinda dumb. If people like to have to avoid the bosses until they die, then that is fine, but this is just my opinion.

Henning generally has been the most notorious of them all in my experience.

[Whisky]

I think the video exaggerates him a bit, but Henning can still be pretty brutal. The video basically implied that you need promoted Rutger to fight him, and I’ve seen other people more or less claim the same, which is not true. I’m not sure if the video was trying to imply that you needed promoted Rutger or if it was just assuming you would have him, but either way, the video wasn’t thorough.

The video claimed that Henning would have a low % chance of killing Rutger with a Crit. That’s true, but there are ways to reduce that chance. You get a Goddess Icon you could use on Rutger to reduce Henning’s Crit chance against him, possibly to 0. You also get an Angelic Robe that could potentially allow Rutger to survive a Crit from Henning. Maybe most people would prefer to use it on other units, but the option should be mentioned if it makes the “terrible boss” more manageable.

Another option is promoted Dieck, which Mekkah did not mention at all. Promoted Dieck will not be as effective at killing Henning as quickly as Rutger, but he’ll get the job done eventually. Dieck has more Luc, HP, and Def, giving him a higher likelihood of having either enough bulk to survive a Crit from Henning, or enough Luc to reduce the Crit chance to 0, especially with the previously mentioned stats boosters. This can actually make him more reliable than Rutger.

And others have already mentioned promoted Lugh being able to slowly whittle away at his HP from range until he dies, via Rescue/Dropping, another tactic that Mekkah did not mention.

Now, the reason I say that Henning is still rather brutal, is because these options are rather limited, especially without foresight about the fight. What if you don’t want to promote Rutger or Dieck, or even Lugh? What if you want to promote Lott and Clarine? Promoting the ‘wrong’ unit can result in Henning being nearly unbeatable. Even Marcus and Zealot don’t do well against him so you’re in for a rough ride if you aren’t prepared for this boss.

[Shadow Mir]

I would agree, largely because it's no fun dealing with someone who dodges everything you throw at it, as it makes the game much more luck-based than it needs to be (incidentally, I saw a blog with an entry talking about the top 10 annoying enemies in Fire Emblem. Bosses with high Avoid on thrones made the list at number 5). Also, @Jotari would I be safe in assuming Hyman/Reynard is also on this list of worst FE bosses?

45 minutes ago, Whisky said:

And others have already mentioned promoted Lugh being able to slowly whittle away at his HP from range until he dies, via Rescue/Dropping, another tactic that Mekkah did not mention.

I don't think promoted Lugh is that good of an answer thanks to thrones giving 5 resistance. 10/1 Lugh does 9 damage with Fire (with rounding up assumed; this also puts aside random stat variance). This sounds good on paper, but this still asks for him to hit consecutive attacks, which I cannot really bank on.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would agree, largely because it's no fun dealing with someone who dodges everything you throw at it, as it makes the game much more luck-based than it needs to be (incidentally, I saw a blog with an entry talking about the top 10 annoying enemies in Fire Emblem. Bosses with high Avoid on thrones made the list at number 5). Also, @Jotari would I be safe in assuming Hyman/Reynard is also on this list of worst FE bosses?

Yes, he is along with the boss from the level before as a combined slot. And that's where I agree that the line is crossed and the bosses are stupid hard. But Henning I've never found so difficult that a weapon break is required. It's never even taken ridiculously long for me. I've had more trouble taking Murdock on safely than Henning. And by virtue of rescue drop strategies being possible in FE6, it makes powerful bosses much more manageable than in Shadow Dragon where you just have to commit to a unit being on range on enemy phase.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

Now, the reason I say that Henning is still rather brutal, is because these options are rather limited, especially without foresight about the fight. What if you don’t want to promote Rutger or Dieck, or even Lugh? What if you want to promote Lott and Clarine? Promoting the ‘wrong’ unit can result in Henning being nearly unbeatable. Even Marcus and Zealot don’t do well against him so you’re in for a rough ride if you aren’t prepared for this boss.

True, preparation is a factor here, but I'd also argue that this is mainly in regard to hard mode. And FE6's hard mode in general is such a step up I could see it as designed specifically for people who already know the game already and should know what needs preparing for. And while Henning isn't as difficult in normal mode, he'd still provide enough of a challenge that someone would be aware that there's a boss here you might want to be prepared for.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Jotari

[joevar]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I've had more trouble taking Murdock on safely than Henning. And by virtue of rescue drop strategies being possible in FE6, it makes powerful bosses much more manageable than in Shadow Dragon where you just have to commit to a unit being on range on enemy phase

ah yes Murdock i actually remember having problem with him. Because i've been grinding in the arena (not extensively but still a couple lvl up for several unit) and can still lose a unit against him because i thought he's like any other boss before him. But Murdock being really powerful actually fitting since he's the most powerful after zephiel

Edited October 15, 2020 by joevar

[Whisky]

I’ve never had much issue with Murdock. He’s strong, but he can be killed pretty easily with an Armour Slayer. He doesn’t double most units. I don’t remember Crits being an issue. As long as you don’t fight him with someone with particularly low Luc, I don’t think he will have a Crit chance.

[Mars of Aritia]

I don't see what the problem is. You have two mages to chuck magic at him, and this chapter is pretty much designed to grind up Lilina, so just lead with someone with a killing edge then have her nuke him with Roy nearby, with Lugh doing some light chipping as well. and i believe the light sword always does 10 damage at range, so you can even have rutger chuck light magic as well. then just rescue drop them out of danger and repeat.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Mars of Aritia

[Shadow Mir]

On 10/14/2020 at 8:48 PM, Jotari said:

Yes, he is along with the boss from the level before as a combined slot. And that's where I agree that the line is crossed and the bosses are stupid hard. But Henning I've never found so difficult that a weapon break is required. It's never even taken ridiculously long for me. I've had more trouble taking Murdock on safely than Henning. And by virtue of rescue drop strategies being possible in FE6, it makes powerful bosses much more manageable than in Shadow Dragon where you just have to commit to a unit being on range on enemy phase.

Henning may fall short of the level of stupid that Hyman and Gomer are (you know something's wrong when you pretty much HAVE to break the boss's weapon to have a chance to kill them because no one can engage them safely otherwise; that said, there is one strategy for Hyman, but it is heavily luck-based, as said strategy involves Ogma getting a critical hit with the Killing Edge, followed up by Barst hitting with the Devil Axe. I don't exactly consider this reliable, considering that both can fail [Ogma might not crit, and the devil axe could damage Barst instead]), but he still crosses the line into frustrating territory, especially since the one unit that can most reliably dispose of him has low enough luck that crits are a concern. 

26 minutes ago, Mars of Aritia said:

I don't see what the problem is. You have two mages to chuck magic at him, and this chapter is pretty much designed to grind up Lilina, so just lead with someone with a killing edge then have her nuke him with Roy nearby, with Lugh doing some light chipping as well. and i believe the light sword always does 10 damage at range, so you can even have rutger chuck light magic as well. then just rescue drop them out of danger and repeat.

Magic isn't that good an answer to him because thrones give 5 resistance. Second, Lilina isn't exactly considered a good unit, so she might not be in play. Third, the Light Brand isn't that accurate (I'm not exactly enthusiastic about having to hope I can connect with hit rates that are in all likelihood around, if not lower than 50).

[ping]

He's definitely not *dangerous*. Defaulting to a one-range weapon and not moving means that you can just throw 40-60% accurate 2-range attacks at him until finally enough of them stick - Lugh's magic, or the light brand. You don't even need any promoted characters, either - I definitely remember beating Henning on HM without using any promotion items beforehand. It may take an extra turn or three, but as long as you're rescueing diligently, you can bombard him with two or even three attacks per turn (three attackers with two rescue/drop bots for each of them - you have 10 character slots, so you can set this up, no problem) without him getting a single chance to hit back.

[whase]

I never really thought about this, but it makes sense that not low-manning this game makes bosses really hard. I normally train no more than 5 units at that point of the game, and even then these bosses are tough to take down. Not dangerous though, so long as I don't try to hurry, but I never play for ltc.

Bring plenty of vulneraries and these bosses are simply good sources of experience.

[Mars of Aritia]

  

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Magic isn't that good an answer to him because thrones give 5 resistance. Second, Lilina isn't exactly considered a good unit, so she might not be in play. Third, the Light Brand isn't that accurate (I'm not exactly enthusiastic about having to hope I can connect with hit rates that are in all likelihood around, if not lower than 50).

it's 15 total def vs 8 total res, magic is the way to go. he has 63 avoid, barely anything is super accurate against him.

some quick calculations, levels may be higher at this point. I've never played hard mode, so I assume the serenes stats page is correct:

deke lvl10: 11 str, 14 skl, 6 luck = 5dmg, 51 hit, 30 crit (killing edge)
rutger lvl10: 17 skl, 5 luck, 18 spd = x2 10 dmg, 46 hit (light sword)
lugh lvl10: 7 mag, 9 skl, 8 luck = 4 dmg, 58 hit (fire)
lilina lvl5: 8 mag, 5 skl, 6 luck, C Roy = 6 dmg, 58 hit (fire)

it's pretty simple: deke waits in front of boss, boss attacks deke, deke heals, ranged people attack with magic, ponies and roy rescue drop range attackers, boss attacks deke, repeat. though it's a bit coin flippy, so it could take anywhere from 2-5 turns really. promoting one of them would really help. and i guess deke faces a negligible 3% crit chance.

 

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Mars of Aritia said:

  

it's 15 total def vs 8 total res, magic is the way to go. he has 63 avoid, barely anything is super accurate against him.

some quick calculations, levels may be higher at this point. I've never played hard mode, so I assume the serenes stats page is correct:

deke lvl10: 11 str, 14 skl, 6 luck = 5dmg, 51 hit, 30 crit (killing edge)
rutger lvl10: 17 skl, 5 luck, 18 spd = x2 10 dmg, 46 hit (light sword)
lugh lvl10: 7 mag, 9 skl, 8 luck = 4 dmg, 58 hit (fire)
lilina lvl5: 8 mag, 5 skl, 6 luck, C Roy = 6 dmg, 58 hit (fire)

it's pretty simple: deke waits in front of boss, boss attacks deke, deke heals, ranged people attack with magic, ponies and roy rescue drop range attackers, boss attacks deke, repeat. though it's a bit coin flippy, so it could take anywhere from 2-5 turns really. promoting one of them would really help. and i guess deke faces a negligible 3% crit chance.

Magic sounds like the way to go on paper, but Lugh and Lilina aren't exactly all-stars (the most recent tier list, on this site anyway, has Lugh as only mid tier, while Lilina is lower mid). Also, tomes lose durability even on missed attacks, which doesn't help the "just have mages chuck magic at him" strategy, as it means every attack Lugh or Lilina does has a non-trivial chance of accomplishing nothing but wasting weapon uses.

[Mars of Aritia]

41 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Magic sounds like the way to go on paper, but Lugh and Lilina aren't exactly all-stars (the most recent tier list, on this site anyway, has Lugh as only mid tier, while Lilina is lower mid). Also, tomes lose durability even on missed attacks, which doesn't help the "just have mages chuck magic at him" strategy, as it means every attack Lugh or Lilina does has a non-trivial chance of accomplishing nothing but wasting weapon uses.

So what? fire tomes have 30 uses, are cheap, and can be bought in the prep screen.

and those tier lists are based on the whole game (and the arbitrary goal of low turn counts). For this specific situation, they are your best and safest options.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, whase said:

I never really thought about this, but it makes sense that not low-manning this game makes bosses really hard. I normally train no more than 5 units at that point of the game, and even then these bosses are tough to take down. Not dangerous though, so long as I don't try to hurry, but I never play for ltc.

Bring plenty of vulneraries and these bosses are simply good sources of experience.

Maybe that's the answer. It's efficiency players who train just a handful of units and care about turn counts that complain about Henning, while for more casual players (but not like filthy casuals, casuals who paly hard mode!) see it as a challenge to overcome.

1 hour ago, Mars of Aritia said:

So what? fire tomes have 30 uses, are cheap, and can be bought in the prep screen.

and those tier lists are based on the whole game (and the arbitrary goal of low turn counts). For this specific situation, they are your best and safest options.

I haven't seen those tier lists, but let's face if, if you're not using Lugh or Lilina as your mage then who are you using? Hugh? Sophia? Raigh? I'm sure Niime is high on the list for her staff utility, but unless there's a major aspect I'm forgetting, Lilina and Lugh are the primary offensive mages of the game.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Jotari

[Whisky]

Lugh is pretty good. He deals decent chip early on due to enemies having low Res. He has a good Spd growth and will start doubling slow enemies pretty quickly. He gains 4 Mag when he promotes and becomes pretty powerful. He also becomes an extra healer. I think he’s the best candidate for the first Guiding Ring.

Lilina starts too under leveled with too low base stats to compete. Aside from being able to surpass Lugh’s Mag, her Skl, Spd, and durability will be significantly worse throughout the game.

-

Back on topic, the magic tactic can work against Henning. It might not be the most effective strat against him, but it can work. I’ve done it. We’re talking about how unfair this boss is and how many options there are for beating him, so it doesn’t matter if it’s not greatly effective, as long as it works. If you don’t have promoted Rutger or Dieck, I think promoted Lugh with his magic is the next best option.

-

5 hours ago, Mars of Aritia said:

deke lvl10:

5 hours ago, Mars of Aritia said:

rutger lvl10:

Both of these two can easily reach higher level by this point.

5 hours ago, Mars of Aritia said:

lugh lvl10: 7 mag, 9 skl, 8 luck = 4 dmg, 58 hit (fire)
lilina lvl5: 8 mag, 5 skl, 6 luck, C Roy = 6 dmg, 58 hit (fire)

Lugh should still be more accurate. Lilina/Roy C Support only adds +5 Hit. Lugh’s 4 more Skl would add +8 Hit.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Whisky

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Mars of Aritia said:

So what? fire tomes have 30 uses, are cheap, and can be bought in the prep screen.

and those tier lists are based on the whole game (and the arbitrary goal of low turn counts). For this specific situation, they are your best and safest options.

Is the prep screen shop a thing in hard mode (which I assume this topic is in the context of)? I think it isn't, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this account.

 

[Whisky]

18 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Is the prep screen shop a thing in hard mode (which I assume this topic is in the context of)? I think it isn't, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this account.

 

I don’t think it is, but you can buy Fires in Ch 7. I said before that Henning can be pretty brutal of you don’t prepare for him but there are a few ways to beat him if you know how, so you aren’t restricted to only one option (Mekkah only mentioned one way to fight him).

[Mars of Aritia]

7 hours ago, Whisky said:

Lugh is pretty good. He deals decent chip early on due to enemies having low Res. He has a good Spd growth and will start doubling slow enemies pretty quickly. He gains 4 Mag when he promotes and becomes pretty powerful. He also becomes an extra healer. I think he’s the best candidate for the first Guiding Ring.

Lilina starts too under leveled with too low base stats to compete. Aside from being able to surpass Lugh’s Mag, her Skl, Spd, and durability will be significantly worse throughout the game.

-

Back on topic, the magic tactic can work against Henning. It might not be the most effective strat against him, but it can work. I’ve done it. We’re talking about how unfair this boss is and how many options there are for beating him, so it doesn’t matter if it’s not greatly effective, as long as it works. If you don’t have promoted Rutger or Dieck, I think promoted Lugh with his magic is the next best option.

-

Both of these two can easily reach higher level by this point.

Lugh should still be more accurate. Lilina/Roy C Support only adds +5 Hit. Lugh’s 4 more Skl would add +8 Hit.

Ah, yes you're right my mistake. Still, 53 hit is worth the gamble. and i think i might have underestimated the levels, even me who likes to spread the love to everyone had something like a lvl 12 deke. the stat difference should be minor though.

And there's no reason you can't use both mages for a while and drop one of them mid game. Enemies have pathetic res, and you already have plenty of mediocre physical units to pick from.

[joevar]

Tier list place lilina in low tier? i thought she should be medium tier at least, or thats how i remember many guide place her 15+ years ago when playing it.

but in case of Henning then yes of course Lilina cant contribute, its her second chapter versus Lugh 5th(6th?) chapter. But in long run she should be fine alongside lugh. Maybe it becomes harder because said person already used to places restriction to each of his playthru? (like low turn count, etc)