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AnonymousSpeed

You must pick one character to give Knight as their Heart Seal class

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I think Conquest has a decent variety of Heart Seal classes (at least by comparison to Birthright), but there is one Nohrian class which nobody can Heart Seal into- Knight.

Now, Knight isn't a great class, even in Conquest. The units who join as knights aren't bad, but with the arguable exception of Benny, they'd all rather be something else. Despite that, I just think it's weird that nobody has it as a Heart Seal option even though basically every other class is a Heart Seal option for someone.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to pick one character in Conquest who doesn't join as a Knight and replace their Heart Seal class with Knight.

You can provide as many or as few reasons of whatever quality you like.

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Arthur.

Cav Arthur feels like an off choice when Knight Arthur could have been and it would have suited better for him to get General than Paladin, especially for the superhero argument alongside his Speed being enough of a crapshoot that he could benefit from Wary Fighter and get there without partner or friend seals.

That's my general argument.

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12 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

they'd all rather be something else.

who dat

12 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to pick one character in Conquest who doesn't join as a Knight and replace their Heart Seal class with Knight.

Flora. 

From Maid to General to Hero.

It´d be funny. Not good but... y´know. Funny. Maybe.

 

otherwise Subaki, but anti-hoshidan sentiment

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I've played very little Fates, and what I have played of it was on a friend's 3DS, but every time I know I'll never be able to get very far before I will never see the save file again, so I usually let Corrin be an knight just because it's the worst class. (Though I unironically like some armored knights in the series, but mostly it's for the joke. 24 defense 0 speed Bord though...)

Moral of the story: I still need to play Fates.

Edited by 3PercentCrit

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38 minutes ago, 3PercentCrit said:

I've played very little Fates, and what I have played of it was on a friend's 3DS, but every time I know I'll never be able to get very far before I will never see the save file again, so I usually let Corrin be an knight just because it's the worst class. (Though I unironically like some armored knights in the series, but mostly it's for the joke. 24 defense 0 speed Bord though...)

Moral of the story: I still need to play Fates.

Funny thing is, knights are actually good in this game. Fighters and Oni Savages (the Hoshidan equivalent to fighters), on the other hand.... not so much.

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33 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Funny thing is, knights are actually good in this game. Fighters and Oni Savages (the Hoshidan equivalent to fighters), on the other hand.... not so much.

Knights? Good? This sounds like the recipe for my favorite game of all time!

Edited by 3PercentCrit
Oswin and Gilliam are easily some of my favorite units.

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Capture a generic knight instead.

8 hours ago, 3PercentCrit said:

Knights? Good? This sounds like the recipe for my favorite game of all time!

Yeah, all of Conquest's natural knights are pretty good. Effie is a physical powerhouse that isn't that tanky actually, but will often one-shot stuff you want one-shotted. And while Benny's offense is lackluster, his defenses are unparalleled, man's damn near invincible. Benny's son Ignatius is a sort of middle ground between the two, where he is better at combat than Benny and at tanking than Effie.

Edited by Saint Rubenio

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9 hours ago, 3PercentCrit said:

Knights? Good? This sounds like the recipe for my favorite game of all time!

 

22 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Yeah, all of Conquest's natural knights are pretty good. Effie is a physical powerhouse that isn't that tanky actually, but will often one-shot stuff you want one-shotted. And while Benny's offense is lackluster, his defenses are unparalleled, man's damn near invincible. Benny's son Ignatius is a sort of middle ground between the two, where he is better at combat than Benny and at tanking than Effie.

Also of note, Generals get Wary Fighter, which disables follow-ups from either side. This primarily benefits Benny, who is your quintessential armored knight stat wise.

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10 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

who dat

Effie appreciates a more offense-oriented physical class, like Archer via Mozu friendship. I don't have much experience with Ignatius, but I'd assume (based on this being true of everyone in Conquest) that he'd rather be a wyvern.

10 hours ago, 3PercentCrit said:

Moral of the story: I still need to play Fates.

It's pretty good.

35 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Capture a generic knight instead.

But generics can't heart seal except to switch promotion options, thereby cannot satisfy the challenge.

7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also of note, Generals get Wary Fighter, which disables follow-ups from either side. This primarily benefits Benny, who is your quintessential armored knight stat wise.

I don't think Wary Fighter is really that good, to be honest. I think it sounds really good in theory- negate the primary statistical weakness of armor knights! But it doesn't matter in that many practical cases. Effie isn't really slow enough to need it, and Benny (who benefits the most of anyone from it) takes very little damage from faster enemies anyway.

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12 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't think Wary Fighter is really that good, to be honest. I think it sounds really good in theory- negate the primary statistical weakness of armor knights! But it doesn't matter in that many practical cases. Effie isn't really slow enough to need it, and Benny (who benefits the most of anyone from it) takes very little damage from faster enemies anyway.

I think Wary Fighter is very good and I think Benny really takes off when you get it. Benny's problem is that unless you stack a lot of speed on him (which is inefficient compared to the stats of his you actually want to boost), he gets doubled by not just fast enemies, but mid-speed ones, including most magic users. Axe-users, mages, and enemies who hit weakness can all do quite a lot of damage to him when doubling; halving their damage is real good.

I definitely think it's worth picking up. If you just send him to Great Knight (or Wyvern, etc.) immediately, he'll be way more killable by a variety of things, both because his defence is lower and because a lot of things will double him.

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14 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Effie appreciates a more offense-oriented physical class, like Archer via Mozu friendship.

Yeah, maybe in the lategame but not in the earlygame - maybe not before Kitsune chapter.

She already has a lot of offense, Generals STR cap allows her PS to activate easier and General has more STR than Sniper can compensate with Bowfaire - Effie is a unit that can effectively EP in CQ with little to medium-ish threat of immediate death, which isn´t something many other units can do - Sniper/Kinshi compromises that in favor of better PP, but PP is 1 kill/turn lest we dance/PU shenanigans and good PP is easier to come by in CQ than EP.

Great Knight and maybe General might be a candidate for an Arms Scroll, i suppose, for WT control and effective damage - Bow good, but not Beast Killer/Hammer, Dual Club access kinda good. 

14 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Effie isn't really slow enough to need it,

5 base SPD tho

Hoshidans are fast as fuck

´cept Orochi

 

I am no fan of Benny - overwhelming Defense only leads through BeNeLux.

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2 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

5 base SPD tho

Hoshidans are fast as fuck

This is also Fates. There is more than enough to ways stack stats to shore up any weakness, especially since Effie has a good speed growth.

For example, an average Effie promoted at level 15 averages around 13 speed as a great knight. Throw in a master ninja Kaze Pair up and a Speed Tonic, that's 20 Speed. That's enough to double almost every enemy in Chapter 13.

And that's just the normal stuff. If we threw on everything such as Speed Meals, Special Dance, and a Raider Naginata, she could double Ryoma in Chapter 12.

Wary Fighter is just not very good since it does nothing to help reach one rounding benchmarks to prevent seal skills and poison strike and drastically slows down the rate shield gauge goes up.

It only helps Benny because he is on the lower end of the cast since he lacks a good offense and his speed is unsalavageable without massive favoritism. If you wanted to use an Armor Knight, Ch 18 General Boss is a much better unit.

Edited by LoneRecon400

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35 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

If you wanted to use an Armor Knight, Ch 18 General Boss is a much better unit.

I hard disagree. Being a generic comes with no perks, only disadvantages. And that's without factoring in the fact that I need to field a specific character (whose usefulness wanes as the game goes on, mind you) just to have a chance to get him. OR the time-consuming process of actually getting to use him.  All this leads to me finding capture to be overrated as fuck. All that trouble for what is, to be blunt, a worse version of a unit I can get just by playing the damn game? Pass.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

All that trouble for what is, to be blunt, a worse version of a unit I can get just by playing the damn game? Pass.

Average 20/4 General Benny:

HP 39.75 | Str 22.80 | Skl 22.20 | Spd 7.05 |

Lck 16.60 | Def 31.00 | Res 15.75

Ch 18 General boss:

HP 47 (+8) | Str 28  (+6) | Skl 20 (-2) | Spd 11 (+4) |

12 Lck (-4)  | Def 31 (0) | Res 15 (0)

+7 Strength (A-Rank Lances) is quite significant, especially since they don't need any levels learn Wary Fighter.

I can understand not wanting to use generics, but to say that they are weaker is just wrong unless you're stacking skills through supports.

Edited by LoneRecon400

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16 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

+7 Strength (A-Rank Lances) is quite significant, especially since they don't need any levels learn Wary Fighter.

I can understand not wanting to use generics, but to say that they are weaker is just wrong unless you're stacking the level 15 promoted class skills on units.

To be fair, while Benny admittedly loses strength, he does provide Fierce Mien, which is a nice accuracy boost. You also get better numbers out of supports, though the difference isn't that large overall.

I think which is better depends on how fast we're assuming the character is recruited from the persuasion mechanic. I kinda favour Benny myself because the personal is cool for reliability (which matters more in this game than ones with Divine Pulse, IMO), and some of the best maps for pure physical tanking are either before Generic General joins (17) or before I'd personally assume he is able to join (19).

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53 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

This is also Fates. There is more than enough to ways stack stats to shore up any weakness, especially since Effie has a good speed growth.

For example, an average Effie promoted at level 15 averages around 13 speed as a great knight. Throw in a master ninja Kaze Pair up and a Speed Tonic, that's 20 Speed. That's enough to double almost every enemy in Chapter 13.

What does CQ13 not have a lot of? Hoshidan enemies. What else does it have? Some of the slowest enemy classes in the game. What did I forget to mention? The faster enemies (Samurai, Ninja, Pegasus) tend to be physically frail, thus enabling Effie to 1HKO.

Having promoted units at chapter 13 strikes me as unnessecary and wasteful.

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32 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Average 20/4 General Benny:

HP 39.75 | Str 22.80 | Skl 22.20 | Spd 7.05 |

Lck 16.60 | Def 31.00 | Res 15.75

Ch 18 General boss:

HP 47 (+8) | Str 28  (+6) | Skl 20 (-2) | Spd 11 (+4) |

12 Lck (-4)  | Def 31 (0) | Res 15 (0)

+7 Strength (A-Rank Lances) is quite significant, especially since they don't need any levels learn Wary Fighter.

I can understand not wanting to use generics, but to say that they are weaker is just wrong unless you're stacking skills through supports.

Swing and a miss. Like was stated before, he's unusable in the chapters which would've really wanted a tank, and I'd say Fierce Mien outstrips the generic's meager offerings.

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30 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To be fair, while Benny admittedly loses strength, he does provide Fierce Mien, which is a nice accuracy boost. You also get better numbers out of supports, though the difference isn't that large overall.

I think which is better depends on how fast we're assuming the character is recruited from the persuasion mechanic. I kinda favour Benny myself because the personal is cool for reliability (which matters more in this game than ones with Divine Pulse, IMO), and some of the best maps for pure physical tanking are either before Generic General joins (17) or before I'd personally assume he is able to join (19).

Fierce Mein is pretty cool, but by itself isnt enough to make up for the difference. Especially since he has to be raised up to Wary Fighter to even start being useful.

How fast you recurit generics is a totally fair point. But I don't think Chapter 17 is a good map for him at all, since the chapter becomes a lot easier if you have units that can one round the ninjas, which he can't do at all.

27 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

What does CQ13 not have a lot of? Hoshidan enemies. What else does it have? Some of the slowest enemy classes in the game. What did I forget to mention? The faster enemies (Samurai, Ninja, Pegasus) tend to be physically frail, thus enabling Effie to 1HKO.

Having promoted units at chapter 13 strikes me as unnessecary and wasteful.

The example was supposed how she can regularly double even considering her base Speed. It not like every enemy in conquest is an ninja.

Early promoting is good. Going from 4 from 7 movement  and having speed to double is a pretty big boon. You don't need 20/20 stats to be useful in the lategame.

Edited by LoneRecon400

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20 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

The example was supposed how she can regularly double even considering her base Speed. It not like every enemy in conquest is an ninja.

Yeah, but the common sentiment strewn across "Rate the unit" threads across the internet has her marked down for problems with speed and not "if you waste resources unnecessarily on chapter 13 you can double the slowest enemies in the game in that chapter, only with no real benefit since they are also the tankiest varaint of enemies in the game and you will take significant counterdamage since you are vulnerable to the chapters Beastkillers."

22 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Early promoting is good.

Not good enough in CQ. Lategame enemies are higher quality than the rest of the franchise and debuffing via non combat exists.

22 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Going from 4 from 7 movement  and having speed to double is a pretty big boon.

Appropriate PU does that but enables 1HKOs and better AS on her - superior to 1RKOs in every way, since you can´t be debuffed by Daggers/Shurikens that way.

Without using ressources for neither reason nor gain.

24 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

You don't need 20/20 stats to be useful in the lategame.

You do, if you´re melee or tank.

Inb4 Maid Effie.

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36 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Yeah, but the common sentiment strewn across "Rate the unit" threads across the internet has her marked down for problems with speed and not "if you waste resources unnecessarily on chapter 13 you can double the slowest enemies in the game in that chapter, only with no real benefit since they are also the tankiest varaint of enemies in the game and you will take significant counterdamage since you are vulnerable to the chapters Beastkillers."

Not good enough in CQ. Lategame enemies are higher quality than the rest of the franchise and debuffing via non combat exists. You need 20/20 stats to melee or tank.

The point I'm trying to make is that Effie can consistently double mid speed enemies throughout the game. This makes her bulkier thanks to shield gauge and doesn't require much more than speed pair up and Tonic.  Wary Fighter is more of hindrance than a boon for her.

Lategame enemies may be stronger, but so are the tools you are given to face them. You can easily have rallies, food, shelter dances, and can stack skills to make up for the difference. You don't need raw stats when you have so many other ways to make stats.

Let me portray an example. An 15/15 Effie has 20 Speed. With S Rank Kaze and Speed Tonic, that's 28. Add on a Rally and Meal results on 34 Speed. That is more than enough to double the majority of enemies throughout chapter 22-24, the bulk of where you fight hoshidan soldiers in the late game.

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1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

But I don't think Chapter 17 is a good map for him at all, since the chapter becomes a lot easier if you have units that can one round the ninjas, which he can't do at all.

As long as you have a javelin (or other 1-2 weapon) equipped and enough def to nullify their attack stat, you can keep the ninjas from attacking you and thus chokepoint for squishier people as necessary (as well as keep them from being attacked by steel shuriken which ruin their one-shot capability). You can tear through ninjas fine on the player phase with Camilla and other one-shotters, but I do find having someone who can be immune to them on enemy phase is a nice boon, and Benny/Xander are good choices for this in my experience. Obviously Xander's the better overall unit of the two and I don't find Benny by any means necessary there, but I do think he performs well.

You do have to find opportunities to keep getting him exp, though; I'll readily admit that. The "be so tanky that nothing even attacks you" isn't very conducive to exp gain.

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See I find it more conductive just to get somebody to one round on enemy phase in Chapter 17. Defensive strategies like that give more time for Saizo to do something dumb, so I prefer to prefer to blitz the chapter.

Benchmarks to do so look intimidating at first, but it's actually pretty reachable, especially if you're using meals and forges. Like a base Shura is capable of one rounding master ninjas with heart seal and +2 bronze forge even with a Steel Shiriken Debuff.

Edited by LoneRecon400

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Re: Benny

I think people have already basically brought up why he doesn't really need Wary Fighter. Against fast enemies, he's usually taking such little damage that he doesn't need to avoid getting doubled. It actually makes his guard gauge build slower, so it's not really a strict advantage.

Re: Effie

Kills most enemies that can double her on counter-attack (or just attack on player phase) and her base speed is low, sure, but that's because she's in knight, and her speed massively ticks up when she's in basically anything else.

Aside from Benny, Gunter is the only unit who might like it, and that requires Corrin marriage with a knight talent so lol no.

I think Kaze is an interesting choice for knight talent, but I think Beruka could do okay too. She really appreciates axefaire for damage, but it fits her statline and Conquest has plenty of fighters. This would, however, limit Camilla's berserker options, and you can't pass down Sky Knight to Beruka!Percy, so I would overall consider it not an advantage.

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