Ranking each game by Class: Brigand/Pirate/Berserker

[Whisky]

I messed up last time as in 3H, Warriors and WarMasters are actually more like Berserkers rather than Warriors, despite the name. Even if they're called Warriors, they have a Crit bonus and don't use Bows, so they're more like Berserkers. Oh well, I'll include them again here. This is a somewhat uncommon class. There are no Axes in Echoes, and no Berserkers in RD. I haven't played Awakening or Fates. I feel that Berserkers are a pretty consistent class throughout the series. They seem to always be pretty good but not great. I could really switch around the order a bit, but my explanations will matter more than the order any way, so let's get into it.

Three Houses - I think Warrior is possibly the worst class in the game, but WarMaster is pretty good. It's a very strong class and can be a good choice for characters that need extra power in order to get kills. If you want mobility, go Wyvern, but if you want raw killing power, go WarMaster. 20% Crit bonus on any weapon and +5 Str with both Axe Faire and Fist Faire makes them very good at killing either with an Axe or by punching things. With Smash and a Killer Axe they can reach 100% Crit rate. It's a good class, but what holds back from being really great is that there are a lot of other ways to kill effectively in other classes too. Sniper and Grappler have Hunter's Volley and Fierce Iron Fist. Certain units have Swift Strikes, Point Blank Volley, or Vengeance. Some units can even be effective at killing enemies without Combat Arts like Edelgard as a Wyvern Lord with Death Blow and Darting Blow. Some of these options can match the killing power of WarMaster while having better mobility and/or utility.

Blazing Sword - I feel like the GBA games could go in any order. This is the game that has Hawkeye. Probably the best default Berserker in the series, that I know of. How much of that is from his class though? It's a fairly average class. Just being able to use Axes (mostly Hand Axes) makes it decent enough. Like I said, pretty good but not great. There are plenty of worse classes in this game but also plenty of better ones.

Binding Blade - Like Swordmasters, Berserkers get a 30% Crit bonus in this game instead of 15% like the other GBA games. That's a nice bonus to have and makes Berserkers a lot better at killing things than they would be otherwise, which is nice because enemies are are harder to kill in this game so the Crits can really be helpful. I think Garret is underrated. He's no Hawkeye but he's not bad. The class itself is again pretty average I think. Being Axe locked is somewhat of an issue in this game compared to the others but Axes have situations they are good for. There are plenty of Lance enemies in the game.

Sacred Stones - This class is again pretty average I feel. I forgot to mention before that Berserkers have some small utility in the GBA games with water walking. This can come in handy on a few occasions in all of these games including this one. Again just being able to use Axes makes the class decent. It's probably Ross' best class. Dozla isn't great, I think he's the worst of the starting Berserkers.

Path of Radiance - Largo is the only Berserker in this game. He joins late but his stats aren't bad. Axes are the best weapon type in this game but being an infantry unit uint this game really holds him back. I said Berserker is a pretty class in most games but it's hard to call any infantry class good in PoR.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

24 minutes ago, Whisky said:

I messed up last time as in 3H, Warriors and WarMasters are actually more like Berserkers rather than Warriors, despite the name. Even if they're called Warriors, they have a Crit bonus and don't use Bows, so they're more like Berserkers.

Every class in Three Houses can use bows without penalty. Warriors lack Bowfaire, but...so do Archers? The progression from Fighter to War Master is more linear than the path most of our units will realistically take. It's entirely sensible to clump up all Infantry Axes into a single ranking or even a single thread. Just focusing on two classes because of their name, and neglecting to acknowledge that 3H is not awarding new weapon types on promotion feels like it's not taking 3H seriously on its own terms. There are five class tiers, and they all have a new name by necessity. So excluding War Master is like excluding Dread Knight or FE10's Reavers because they're a new class name. Nobody gets Boyd to level 20 in FE10 and says "whoops, I better bench Boyd before he promotes". It's the next class promotion.

[AnonymousSpeed]

S-tier in every game, baby. Berserker is an S-rank class.

[samthedigital]

This is one of the less interesting ones unfortunately, at least in my opinion. I can't say for the reclass era outside of Engage where Berserker is just inferior to Warrior, but Berserkers are generally pretty average, and I don't have a lot to say about them, so I wouldn't really object to any kind of placement as long as they're not S-rank lol.

There are two units that I want to mention in particular:

Dart in FE7 is a unit who I've seen be underrated because of the ranked mindset where gold is actually valuable. I wouldn't say that he's good otherwise, but he's definitely a salvageable unit.

Ross is the second one, and he's a unit who I think is a little overrated. His water walking ability often comes up when evaluating him. It saves a turn, but it requires effort that doesn't show up when we're just looking at turn counts. Everyone already knows that his bases are bad and all that.

Edited March 19, 2023 by samthedigital

[Whisky]

15 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Every class in Three Houses can use bows without penalty. Warriors lack Bowfaire, but...so do Archers? The progression from Fighter to War Master is more linear than the path most of our units will realistically take. It's entirely sensible to clump up all Infantry Axes into a single ranking or even a single thread. Just focusing on two classes because of their name, and neglecting to acknowledge that 3H is not awarding new weapon types on promotion feels like it's not taking 3H seriously on its own terms. There are five class tiers, and they all have a new name by necessity. So excluding War Master is like excluding Dread Knight or FE10's Reavers because they're a new class name. Nobody gets Boyd to level 20 in FE10 and says "whoops, I better bench Boyd before he promotes". It's the next class promotion.

In 3H there aren't separate class lines for them but in most games they are separate class lines. In 3H the class line of Warrior-WarMaster are both more similar to how Berserkers are in most games since they have a Crit bonus and no bonus with Bows. They can use Bows as can any class in that game but get no bonuses with them nor require them for certification. Heroes for example get a skill bonus with Axes and requite a certain level of Axes to certify for. Even though they suck at using Axes the game is still keeping Axes a part of the class somewhat. That's not the case with Warrior but it does get the Crit bonus that's normally associated with Berserkers. I never excluded or separated WarMaster from Warrior. I just listed both Warrior and WarMaster in both the Warrior and Berserker topics.

14 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

S-tier in every game, baby. Berserker is an S-rank class.

I has Seth as a Berserker in a randomizer. He was unstoppable.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

On 3/18/2023 at 6:33 PM, Whisky said:

I never excluded or separated WarMaster from Warrior. I just listed both Warrior and WarMaster in both the Warrior and Berserker topics.

Okay when you said "I messed up" I took that as genuine regret and possibly chastising of people who did the same. All I want is for nobody to be shouting down other people's inclusions/exclusions due to their personal preferences. I too want to count it for both topics, but these topics are for fun at the end of the day. It's not even a RTU style thread where we cumulate everybody's posts into points so I've got no tolerance for policing other peoples' approach.

1. Three Houses: No matter how you slice it, Brigand and War Master are easily two of the contenders for best class in the game. They also both happen to have the best class masteries too. And if we expand our survey to include Fighter and Warrior, Fighter keeps this ranking high for being another essential class for 80% of students. And while the Warrior struggles to outperform other Advanced classes it is by no means unsalvageable by combining axe crit and axefaire on a batallion wrath user. Said Bat Wrath user would ultimately prefer to be a fortress knight for more durability, but not every unit has armor rank trained up.
2. FE6: Look, Berserkers rock. If you can get them to fight wyverns on a peak tile, they're invulnerable. Even if you never raise up the pirate or brigand, Deploying Garret in Chapter 21 and 23 is always optimal because of the terrain. No one else will contribute more on those maps. Before promotion, Geese and Gonzo aren't doing much beyond shaky hand axe chips but their stats are competitive, and the promotion grants another 8-10 base Hit. High HP frontliners are more likely to survive siege tomes. Geese is the only of these three that lacks hard mode bonuses, but he's still a competitive pick on Normal. That B rank in Axes means he only needs one rank up to use Armads right around the time you collect it, which gives him dragon killing utility for chapter 16. Maybe even the desert, if he saw a ton of combat or you threw him into the arena. Gonzales' D rank is admittedly annoying, and Garret's C rank is outrageously low compared to every other pre-promote. But even if these guys were stuck with just hand axes and killer axes, they're a huge threat. 
3. FE9: Like most people I haven't used Largo so I don't have any unique insights. His stats are typically on par with a trained Boyd at that point of the game however. Having +15 Crit is without question more valuable than access to bows or the Triangle Attack. Largo comes with no skill, but Boyd's skill should be removed because it's so bad. Good pre-promote, but shouldn't be a rockstar of those remaining chapters.
4. FE8: Dozla's not bad. He's very close statistically to what Garcia ends up as, but with a different class. For Ross, it's worth mentioning that the Pirate > Berserker class path nets you the same +2 speed you'd get being a fighter that turns into a Hero and he enjoys one of those points of speed even sooner on this class path. His Con as a Berserker or Warrior ends up two points higher than Hero as well. And there's no question Ross would prefer the +15 crit over access to swords when he often gets just one swing at the enemy. Ross' biggest problem is his speed typically being a few points short of the double on Hard mode. While I wouldn't rate Ross and Dozla as high tier units, I have little doubt Berserker is one of the better classes in the game. It lacks a mount, but crosses mountains and river tiles better than any non-flier. Can't cross Peak tiles though, so there are still limits.
5. FE7 Hawkeye famously invalidates infantry axe units like Dorcas and Bartre. Dart is not bad either. He's the fastest axe unit in the game, except I guess for Raven. His join chapter has some lucrative rivers you can cross. The big problem with him comes during Ranked runs. His promotion item is worth 50000G toward your funds rank. A ranked run would probably still use him to gain levels, but he would not be a long term powerhouse. Even casually it takes a while for him to take off.
6. FE1: Darros is the fourth of the axe users recruited in chapter 2, and his base stats and stat growths are not on par with the others. He enjoys no unique advantages beyond water walking at a rate of three tiles per turn. I can't think of a map where this is valuable beyond using the sea as an avenue of retreat when low on health. His speed really lags behind, but FE1 is the only version of this game where you only need one point higher for the double and dodge tanking isn't really a thing. If you were stuck with Darros in a draft run, he can still bonk armor knights with the best of them. Taking out armor knights is the primary niche of axe units in FE1. Shared mostly with Marth's Rapier because Merric's excalibur is too valuable to expend on them (can't be hammerned in this version). All told, Darros is probably the only axe user that would rank in the bottom half of a tier list.

If I put this in a tier list, Three Houses is alone at S. A has only FE6, FE 7-9 are B tier, and FE1 is C tier

Edit after replaying FE6: Berserkers demand mention.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Whisky]

36 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Okay when you said "I messed up" I took that as genuine regret and possibly chastising of people who did the same. All I want is for nobody to be shouting down other people's inclusions/exclusions due to their personal preferences. I too want to count it for both topics, but these topics are for fun at the end of the day. It's not even a RTU style thread where we cumulate everybody's posts into points so I've got no tolerance for policing other peoples' approach.

I don’t care at all what people decide to include or not include in their own lists, and I didn’t mean anything serious by saying I messed up, just that I wasn’t thinking about Berserkers when I talked about WarMasters during the Warrior topic. There’s no harm in including them in both though.

These topics are for fun mostly but also for us to possibly learn some things about these games, which is why the explanation part is really what matters along with whatever discussion we can get out of it. The order isn’t very important nor are the specifics of which classes or games you talk about. There (aren’t) rules about that, people can talk about the classes they want to talk about.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Whisky

[Jotari]

Pirates are cool and should come back.

[Shadow Mir]

16 hours ago, Whisky said:

I haven't played Awakening or Fates.

In Awakening, you'd need to reclass to get a Berserker, as no one starts as a Barbarian. Fates has it as the Warrior replacement for whatever reason... for worse.

Anyways... 

• E rank in Binding Blade. Most of the problems Fighters and Warriors have in that game plague them too, except they don't have an alternate weapon to get around that. They have a massive 30% crit bonus... but that means jackshit in the face of the fact that they're extremely unreliable at connecting. Doesn't help that all of Geese, Gonzales and Garret are mediocre at best. Nor does it that the former two need Hero Crests to promote, which are heavily contested.
• C rank in Blazing Blade. Hawkeye is great out the box. Dart has a pretty bad start, which isn't helped by his starting with a steel axe with only 10 build. He can become good... IF you find the Ocean Seal in the desert.
• D rank in Sacred Stones. Dozla is pretty lousy bases wise, with poor stats aside form Strength and HP. Ross is a really high investment unit, with returns that imho, don't justify the work.
• C rank in Path of Radiance. Largo isn't bad, per se, but again, Path of Radiance is dominated by mounted units. That said, his first chapter is one where cavalry are gimped in movement, with Clash being next, so he might be able to put in work as a filler unit. 
• B rank in SD and New Mystery. Axes have it pretty good in the DS games, with evade being nerfed, meaning their hit rates aren't going to be a problem much, if at all.
• E rank in Fates. On the Hoshido side, Oni Savage has poor distribution, and the one unit that starts in the class is laughably bad (also, exactly where would Oni Savage and its promotions fit in this anyway?); its promotions are nothing special too. The Nohr side also misfired, as the Fighters there are also of poor quality. Berserker is a very high risk class with very little reward here, too.

[AnonymousSpeed]

16 hours ago, Whisky said:

I has Seth as a Berserker in a randomizer. He was unstoppable.

The power of BIG DUDES.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Pirates are cool and should come back.

Yes. I demand more sea-swinging axe users! They are, objectively, the best class.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

The power of BIG DUDES.

Yes. I demand more sea-swinging axe users! They are, objectively, the best class.

They need not even be limited to axes. We need a proper promotion for pirate. Something like captain, wielding swords or knives (preferably knives because sword-axe infantry's pretty common).

[AnonymousSpeed]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

They need not even be limited to axes. We need a proper promotion for pirate. Something like captain, wielding swords or knives (preferably knives because sword-axe infantry's pretty common).

We don't have any axe-knife classes at all, and I am personally down for these swarthy cutthroats to plunder red units in the means and manner of Shanty Pete.

[Whisky]

5 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

The power of BIG DUDES.

I also have Dieck as a Berserker in a current randomizer run. He is absolutely MASSIVE with 17 Con. I imagine him being a 7 ft tall super muscular dude carrying around a battle axe with one hand. (which the battle sprite supports)

52 minutes ago, Jotari said:

They need not even be limited to axes. We need a proper promotion for pirate. Something like captain, wielding swords or knives (preferably knives because sword-axe infantry's pretty common).

That's a pretty cool idea. Too bad FE doesn't have any guns.

[Eltosian Kadath]

Time for another useful graphic for how I feel these roughly align, with a few thoughts below on the games individually. I will note that I feel the tiers are right, but would need more time to really order them within each tier. Also I am not using exactly the same metric for the tiers below A rank, as I did in the last one of these, as find these tiers share something that I can use as emphasis. Compared to the the Sword Master version, the Berserker A tier is more between Sword Master's A and S tiers, the Berserker B rank is more between Sword Master's B and C rank, and Berserker's C tier is more between Sword Master's C and D tier (closer to C then D).

 

A Tier: A good class in this game

Three Houses: Going by the Brigand and War Master distinction, makes this a great class in this game, and arguably worthy of the S tier rank, but I am not sure if I want to declare them one of the best classes in the game (especially with competition like wyvern), the same way I am willing to for FE6 Sword Master, but both are still excellent classes in Three Houses, with great class mastery skills.

New Mystery of the Emblem: Like Three Houses, I am tempted to have this in the S tier as well, but I think it is a bit too debatable...really I can't think of a single New Mystery class line that is so dominant that I would put it in S tier, so this might be a mistake overall, as this is a really good class in New Mystery. Like Sword Master it hits the critical speed caps needed for the highest difficulty of the late game, but it is also the highest strength class that can do so, making it one of the best late-game physical classes. It also has the niche benefit of being a class line with one of the highest numerical growth rate, which matters with how levelups in the Dueling Grounds works, so those that want to go through the hassle of micromanaging such things might change to the Berserker line to hit a higher growth rate threshold for guaranteeing an extra stat on Dueling Grounds levelup. It is also a staple of Lunatic/Lunatic Reverse runs to reclass Draug to Pirate in chapter 1 to hit utterly vital speed benchmarks.

Fates:  This might be a bit controversial, but I think it is a really good class in Conquest, although in a somewhat subtle way, as they are some of the best attack stance, and pairup partners. To be fair they also tend to get the strength and speed to one shot anything with a player phase attack hit of their own as well, and while they don't have the defensive bulk to be the best enemy phase unit, they do get the highest HP of any class in the game which gives them the bulk to survive a stray crit if they have to. Where they really shine is in Fates specific supporting roles, for one they can get well above 50 crit with killer weapons, which makes them potent attack phase partners as suddenly your weakest chip damage units can start using a Berserker attack stance to fish for a >50 chance to crit kill the enemy anyway. The stats they add as a pairup partner are some of the most useful in the game, and the only reason Xander is considered as good as he is, is because everyone assumes he is using a Berserker Charlotte backpack to fix his god awful, cripplingly bad speed. They also get the excellent Strength rally as an excellent basic support ability on top of all of this. Overall, an incredibly useful class in Fates if you know how to use them.

 

B Tier:  A mixed bag with some really good, and some questionable possibilities

Blazing Blade: This is an odd split between a unit which it would be down right detrimental to use, Dart, and an excellent unit that everyone should use in Hawkeye. If Hawkeye were the only one in the game this would be easy A tier, but if it were only Dart it would be in the C to D tier range, so it made sense to me to split the difference here.

Engage: Admittedly this game is new enough that my explanations will be rough, and I am having a hard time separating class from units, but Panette's massive strength I found useful, and I didn't want to weaken her with a reclass, so I guess it found some kind of niche there for me. Although like Blazing Blade above, while Panette makes a great impression, Boucheron, and Anna don't make the best impression for themselves, although I think that has less to do with Boucheron's quality in his case.

 

 

C Tier: A class that isn't useless, and might have some notable niche uses

Sacred Stones: First off, Dozla is an OK unit, not great like Hawkeye was in Blazing Blase, but perfectly usable, although its Pirate Ross that has one interesting niche use that puts him up here as well. Rescue dropping Pirate Ross into the sea to spawn block the ambush spawn boss of Phantom Ship is an important part of turning one of Sacred Stones most infamous maps, into a trivial walk in the park. Admittedly a flyer could do that as well (and are needed to get him into the water, as Sacred Stones is kinda stupid with how it handles water walking), but they do a better job of covering the seas above/below the ships with Javelins (and possibly a Pure Water) to enemy phase the eyeballs, so the otherwise kinda meh Ross fills the role better.

Binding Blade: Calling the Bandit/Pirate/Berserker class good is a strong word for any axe class in this game, although both Gonzales, and Garret get HM bonuses, and with those boosted stats, extremely high damage, and high crit means they might see some use in spite of using Axes.

Shadow Dragon: There are effective axe weapons, so starting out in Pirate to build axe rank up for a shift over to Draco knight is a passable idea, although the classes is rarer than Fighter/Warrior, and with worse base stats than Fighter, although it not a huge difference, and you might still want it for the higher speed growth. Also there is a fair bit of water early on, so you might be able to use water walking for something sneaky. Its not a bad option per se, but with all the competition it has, choosing it over one of the other classes with access to effective axes is a bit of a niche pick.

 

D Tier: Why Would you use this

Path of Radiance: In the land of horses and growth units, why would you use an underwhelming prepromoted Infantry unit like Largo.

Awakening: Perhaps I am being too hard on this class, but it isn't one of those that really breaks this game open, and is only seen on some mostly useless prepromotes, so it doesn't make a good impression for itself.

[Shadow Mir]

On 3/19/2023 at 9:12 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Awakening: Perhaps I am being too hard on this class, but it isn't one of those that really breaks this game open, and is only seen on some mostly useless prepromotes, so it doesn't make a good impression for itself.

The issue is less that, and more that you need a reclass for it because nobody starts as one.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I just remembered that FE1 gives an outrageous 30 avoid to sea tiles (that's tied with Thrones), and Darros is the only unit in the game that can take advantage of it. Well him and Xane when his flier transformation embarrassingly wears off when crossing the ocean. I'm still struggling to think of any specific map where this can pay off. Jumping into a nearby sea tile gives you a better position to bait enemies, but bodies of water are more often than not River tiles instead of Sea tiles. River tiles grant 0 avoid. I guess because sea water is salty and will rust the opponent's blade before hitting you.

In FE3 Sea tiles give 0 avoid. Though FE3 also doesn't get to be a part of this conversation because Darros was cut from Book 1, and the remaining axe users are suspiciously missing from Book 2. The new Barbarian class they built for Book 2 is also enemy-only when it could have served as a promotion for either Darros or the three axe buddies. There is an enemy-only class named "Berserker", but they use swords. Baffling. 

On 3/19/2023 at 11:05 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Yes. I demand more sea-swinging axe users! 

I'm also recalling now that because of how the Famicom drew the tiles in FE1, Water-walking pirates look majestic. The terrain tile beneath each unit is redrawn to look like a Plains tile. So when pirates cross the ocean, it can be interpreted that the land is rising up to meet them and supporting their every step.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I just remembered that FE1 gives an outrageous 30 avoid to sea tiles (that's tied with Thrones), and Darros is the only unit in the game that can take advantage of it. Well him and Xane when his flier transformation embarrassingly wears off when crossing the ocean. I'm still struggling to think of any specific map where this can pay off. Jumping into a nearby sea tile gives you a better position to bait enemies, but bodies of water are more often than not River tiles instead of Sea tiles. River tiles grant 0 avoid. I guess because sea water is salty and will rust the opponent's blade before hitting you.

In FE3 Sea tiles give 0 avoid. Though FE3 also doesn't get to be a part of this conversation because Darros was cut from Book 1, and the remaining axe users are suspiciously missing from Book 2. The new Barbarian class they built for Book 2 is also enemy-only when it could have served as a promotion for either Darros or the three axe buddies. There is an enemy-only class named "Berserker", but they use swords. Baffling. 

I'm also recalling now that because of how the Famicom drew the tiles in FE1, Water-walking pirates look majestic. The terrain tile beneath each unit is redrawn to look like a Plains tile. So when pirates cross the ocean, it can be interpreted that the land is rising up to meet them and supporting their every step.

I assume the waters of Pyrathi are considered sea tiles. Altea too, maybe?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I assume the waters of Pyrathi are considered sea tiles. Altea too, maybe?

Pyrathi yes, Altea no. Some maps like chapter 2 will feature both. You can tell them apart at a glance because the sprites are different. River tiles have more white dots and are animated to look like sunlight is flickering. Sea tiles are static except for a coastline tile that should look like waves.

[Jotari]

30 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Pyrathi yes, Altea no. Some maps like chapter 2 will feature both. You can tell them apart at a glance because the sprites are different. River tiles have more white dots and are animated to look like sunlight is flickering. Sea tiles are static except for a coastline tile that should look like waves.

If Gra and Altea are out, then it really seems like it's just Galdr and Pyrathi that Darros can take advantage of. Port Warren too, but the sea tiles in that are pretty much for the sake of appearance as all of the fighting is going to be taking place in the valley.

[ping]

On 3/20/2023 at 3:12 AM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Blazing Blade: This is an odd split between a unit which it would be down right detrimental to use, Dart, and an excellent unit that everyone should use in Hawkeye. If Hawkeye were the only one in the game this would be easy A tier, but if it were only Dart it would be in the C to D tier range, so it made sense to me to split the difference here.

Isn't that a bit harsh on Dart? His combat goes from kinda bad when he joins to pretty good if a bit unreliable once he promotes - not a particularly good unit profile by BlaBla standards, sure, but I don't know if I would call that "detrimental to use". His promotion costs a lot of money, but that's not an issue outside of ranked runs. And even then, my own HHM ranked run featured Farina, 6 promotions not counting Hector, and a 90'000 gold surplus in the end, so...

I think I broadly agree with your rankings, though, as far as I've played enough of the games to make an informed call.

[Eltosian Kadath]

18 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The issue is less that, and more that you need a reclass for it because nobody starts as one.

For some reason I had it in my head that Basilio started in Berserker.

 

4 hours ago, ping said:

Isn't that a bit harsh on Dart? His combat goes from kinda bad when he joins to pretty good if a bit unreliable once he promotes - not a particularly good unit profile by BlaBla standards, sure, but I don't know if I would call that "detrimental to use". His promotion costs a lot of money, but that's not an issue outside of ranked runs. And even then, my own HHM ranked run featured Farina, 6 promotions not counting Hector, and a 90'000 gold surplus in the end, so...

Yeah, I was probably a bit too harsh on Dart there, although I will note that you are underplaying the value of his 50,000 gold promotion a bit here, as those funds arrive at a critical time. Sure you might have plenty of money by the end of the game, but the 25k you get from selling his promotion item arrives at a time where you need those funds. There is this dearth of shops with Hand axes and Javelins from the last shop in chapter 24/26 (although the 23/24 chop tends to be the safer one to use for the shopping spree) until 29x/31x, and you get this 25k just in time to cover the 1-2 range cost through some of the largest, and most intense chapters in the game. Also it helps cover to 20K cost of recruiting  Farina in Hector mode as well. I have had to suffer through running out of all 1-2 range weapons on HHM Cog of Destiny once, and it is not a pleasant experience...

[ping]

10 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Yeah, I was probably a bit too harsh on Dart there, although I will note that you are underplaying the value of his 50,000 gold promotion a bit here, as those funds arrive at a critical time. Sure you might have plenty of money by the end of the game, but the 25k you get from selling his promotion item arrives at a time where you need those funds. There is this dearth of shops with Hand axes and Javelins from the last shop in chapter 24/26 (although the 23/24 chop tends to be the safer one to use for the shopping spree) until 29x/31x, and you get this 25k just in time to cover the 1-2 range cost through some of the largest, and most intense chapters in the game. Also it helps cover to 20K cost of recruiting  Farina in Hector mode as well. I have had to suffer through running out of all 1-2 range weapons on HHM Cog of Destiny once, and it is not a pleasant experience...

Depending on what units you're using/promoting, I think you do get some good sellables around the same time:

• Your third Guiding Ring, which you may or may not plan to use
• Your third Hero Crest (and if you're using Dart, it's unlikely that you're using this)
• Jasmine has a stealable White Gem on HHM
• Just flat 10k gold from a chest in Kinship's Bond
• Secret Book in 23x (OK, actually, Dart probably wouldn't mind using this)
• An Earth Seal in 24 (both versions, and I think it's quite plausible that you don't need it to promote anybody)
• A Red Gem (Lloyd) or Orion's Bolt (Linus) in 24

As a compulsive Farina recruiter, I have to admit that her recruitment cost is a good point. But especially with the Silver Card, I don't think it's unsurmountable at all - the 10k from Kinship's Bond plus Jasmine's White Gem pays for Farina's fee, and selling even just the Earth Seal on top of that will buy you a lot of Javelins/Hand Axes. Just don't forget to convoy-warp it if you're playing Linus's FFO.

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, ping said:

Depending on what units you're using/promoting, I think you do get some good sellables around the same time:

Not to mention the gold that you might have accrued earlier depending on the specifics of the playthrough.

[Shadow Mir]

On 3/19/2023 at 9:12 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Binding Blade: Calling the Bandit/Pirate/Berserker class good is a strong word for any axe class in this game, although both Gonzales, and Garret get HM bonuses, and with those boosted stats, extremely high damage, and high crit means they might see some use in spite of using Axes.

Frankly, I'd say even with hard mode bonuses, giving Gonzales or Garret a unit slot is still a hard sell. Mono-axes in Binding Blade is just that bad.

On 3/19/2023 at 9:12 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Fates:  This might be a bit controversial, but I think it is a really good class in Conquest, although in a somewhat subtle way, as they are some of the best attack stance, and pairup partners. To be fair they also tend to get the strength and speed to one shot anything with a player phase attack hit of their own as well, and while they don't have the defensive bulk to be the best enemy phase unit, they do get the highest HP of any class in the game which gives them the bulk to survive a stray crit if they have to. Where they really shine is in Fates specific supporting roles, for one they can get well above 50 crit with killer weapons, which makes them potent attack phase partners as suddenly your weakest chip damage units can start using a Berserker attack stance to fish for a >50 chance to crit kill the enemy anyway. The stats they add as a pairup partner are some of the most useful in the game, and the only reason Xander is considered as good as he is, is because everyone assumes he is using a Berserker Charlotte backpack to fix his god awful, cripplingly bad speed. They also get the excellent Strength rally as an excellent basic support ability on top of all of this. Overall, an incredibly useful class in Fates if you know how to use them.

I hard disagree here- first off, the two fighter units you get in Fates are of very poor quality; Arthur is Arthur, and Charlotte comes underleveled. This is bad enough, but Conquest being as unforgiving as it is makes them a VERY hard sell. Especially when they bring nothing to the table that other units don't - something I consider a death sentence for their viability when they're already downright detrimental to use. They're good as pair up partners, sure, but that ain't nearly enough for me to overlook their flaws... 

RE: Xander, by the time he comes along, there's much better things for the team than to blow a deployment slot on Charlotte over someone who is actually useful.

Also, where would you consider Oni Savage and its promotions to fit in this?

Edited March 22, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[samthedigital]

On 3/22/2023 at 3:25 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Frankly, I'd say even with hard mode bonuses, giving Gonzales or Garret a unit slot is still a hard sell. Mono-axes in Binding Blade is just that bad.

Deployment slots are not really that much of an issue for them. FE6 is generous with that even on hard mode. Axes are something of a problem when not fighting lance users, but the bigger issue would be Garret's speed and Gonzales being crap before he promotes and then being too heavy to pick up once he does.