OMG it's a tier list

[Fenrir]

Rhys wins at: chip damage and physic range. Mist wins at: movement. ALL 9 MOVE UNITS INTO HIGH/TOP TIER!

To be honest, I still think that the whole Physic range card fails to impress me when Rhys is completely dependent on them. Also, Rhys may be easier to feed kills to, but 6 move means he's unlikely to be seeing much, if any, combat, and thus it really doesn't help his case much.

mist moves 1 space further, its not like shes frontline or anything, and they dont really need to be building supports. This card fails to impress me.take tht bitch!

[RNG Princess]

After looking at dondon's videos I am convinced Mist and Rhys should be closer to each other, but I still think she has small advantages over him such as the bonds, the pony and supports promising better utility for part 4 and maybe endgame. However Rhys is still undoubtebly good for Part 4's desert chapter so I'm not entirely sure if she should go above him or not ;).

Also Kyza should drop to bottom imo, he's got no reason to be deployed since innate smite Mordecai shoves better and can use resolve better as well.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[General Banzai]

I'm going to take this from the top down.

Ike is incapacitated due to late promotion for half of Part 3, and then is a liability in the last couple of parts of the final because he's got one of the worst resistance stats in the game. Not to mention, also due to late promotion time, he's probably not even hitting --/20/20 which while isn't a huge hit against him, makes me wonder why he's being placed above Haar, who is the only reason 2-F isn't insanely difficult, is not only usable for all of Part 3 but also far better than Ike statistically and utility-wise thanks to his flying and massive movement, as well as Haar's general overlevedness pretty much making him the highest-leveled unit on your team at that point (perhaps tied with Titania). When it comes to the Final Haar has higher resistance than Ike as well as higher MT and Canto which makes it easy for him to attack an enemy and then drift over to a defense or resistance boosting square, while Ike has no such re-move and thus doesn't have the same luxury. Haar also has a skill that activates far more frequently than Aether.

Reyson being so high is a joke. He's only in a handful of chapters, is nearly impossible to get to a high level, is doubled and OHKO'd by nearly every enemy on the map, and takes a long time to get up that transformation bar, meaning until like ten turns into the stage he's got pitiful movement and can't easily get out of the way of enemies. He's a liability in any map that has Wyverns in it. And what does he give you? The ability to move 1 (or 4, after a set period of time) guy(s) again? You're usually better off just standing still and letting the enemy massacre themselves on your beastly stats by the time Reyson becomes available. And you've got him pegged as the second-best unit in the game? You must be joking.

I fail to see how Mia is a more appealing option than Gatrie, Shinon, or Titania. Being stuck to swords is not a good thing unless you're Ike. I don't even understand the reasoning for her being so high; what's so special about her? She joins at a moderate level, does moderate damage, and takes moderate damage. Why not use Gatrie instead? He comes five levels higher, uses a better weapon, does virtually the same amount of damage, and takes much more damage.

Volug. Seriously? Volug? Volug is lousy. He's definitely no better than Sothe. Volug can't kill anything except Mages and Myrms in Part 1, and his high HP drops real fast because every enemy is doing over 10 damage to him. He's outclassed by Tauroneo in 1-6, Muarim in 1-7, and Nailah in 1-8 and 1-F. He gains pittance experience and his growths are lousy anyways. Oh, and when Part 3 rolls around, he's become completely and utterly useless. He can't do anything by then. And better than Sothe? Sothe, who is invaluable in 1-3 through 1-5? Sothe, who can at least do things in the later parts of the game? Really, Volug has nothing going for him. He's out-Jeigan'd by nearly every other Jeigan and can't reliably kill anything.

Leanne is likewise ridiculously high, she's in even less chapters than Reyson (IIRC) and suffers from all his faults. Ditto for Rafiel.

Laura in Upper Middle is pathetic as well. She's better off not deployed in 1-5 and 1-6-1, and thanks to the uber Vulneraries in this game, is easily replaceable. She becomes useless as soon as Part 1 ends and Micaiah promotes and most of the time is just another unit who has to be protected, because everyone and their mother OHKO's AND doubles her.

Mist is laughably high as well; she's definitely a liability; Ike's guys are better off with Vulneraries. She's useless in 3-4 and 3-7 and is never a viable combat unit.

Soren is too low; caps half his stats after gaining 5 levels and after that is the single best candidate for Bexp in the game. Nearly every level of Bexp is guaranteed Spd and Def or HP, which irons out every statistical problem he has and also the fact that he's underleveled. He'll promote relatively early because of it and become a far better unit for healing than Mist or Rhys simply because he can take a hit and dish out damage instead of sitting around like a sop and soaking up a spot on your team. By endgame he's an unstoppable monster who has almost zero competition for the SS rank Rexcalibur. The fact that he's a high-res healer also makes him great for the later stages of the Final because thanks to AoE and magical enemies a lot of people will need healing and Micaiah can't always cover it herself.

Ilyana is also too low; she's basically a slightly lesser version of Soren who is also around in Part 1. Unlike Micaiah, she can actually take a hit and isn't doubled due to high base spd, which means you don't have to put so much effort into protecting her. She's got Rexbolt all to herself and becomes the single best unit you could possibly bring into 4-F-3.

Bastian needs to go up; lategame high stats healer who only has one unit to compete for an SS rank weapon, and you have him lower than Volke and Stefan? The fact that Bastian can exploit the weakness of every single enemy in 4-5 except Izuka is enough to put him over those two. Renning should be higher than Stefan and Volke as well; re-move should give him the edge over both of them.

Also, I fail to see how Pelleas is better than Oliver.

[Narga_Rocks]

So...ignore?

[Florete]

ITT someone who hasn't been around for the last 6,000 posts. I'm only going to reply to a few obvious things (at least I'll try to).

Ike is incapacitated due to late promotion for half of Part 3,

Doesn't matter.

and then is a liability in the last couple of parts of the final because he's got one of the worst resistance stats in the game.

Lol? Seriously?

as well as Haar's general overlevedness pretty much making him the highest-leveled unit on your team at that point (perhaps tied with Titania).

Level means (mostly) nothing. Stats mean something.

is nearly impossible to get to a high level,

Level for a Heron? Lol.

is doubled and OHKO'd by nearly every enemy on the map,

Someone hasn't done their research.

and takes a long time to get up that transformation bar, meaning until like ten turns into the stage he's got pitiful movement and can't easily get out of the way of enemies.

Laguz stones.

I fail to see how Mia is a more appealing option than Gatrie, Shinon, or Titania. Being stuck to swords is not a good thing unless you're Ike. I don't even understand the reasoning for her being so high; what's so special about her? She joins at a moderate level, does moderate damage, and takes moderate damage. Why not use Gatrie instead? He comes five levels higher, uses a better weapon, does virtually the same amount of damage, and takes much more damage.

Lol, Gatrie takes more damage than Mia. Typo or different use of terms?

Volug can't kill anything except Mages and Myrms in Part 1,

More lack of research.

He's outclassed by Tauroneo in 1-6

Except for mobility.

Muarim in 1-7,

Except for gauge.

He gains pittance experience and his growths are lousy anyways.

Doesn't matter. Good thing his bases rock.

Oh, and when Part 3 rolls around, he's become completely and utterly useless. He can't do anything by then.

Soren is too low; caps half his stats after gaining 5 levels and after that is the single best candidate for Bexp in the game.

Cap stats: Who cares? His caps suck. BEXP may help but it isn't doing much when he'll never double.

By endgame he's an unstoppable monster who has almost zero competition for the SS rank Rexcalibur.

Lol @ unstoppable, who cares about Rexcalibur?

The fact that he's a high-res healer also makes him great for the later stages of the Final because thanks to AoE and magical enemies a lot of people will need healing and Micaiah can't always cover it herself.

Fortify, my friend.

Unlike Micaiah, she can actually take a hit

You say that like Ilyana's durability is not terrible.

She's got Rexbolt all to herself

Again, who cares?

and becomes the single best unit you could possibly bring into 4-F-3.

Lol.

Bastian needs to go up; lategame high stats healer who only has one unit to compete for an SS rank weapon, and you have him lower than Volke and Stefan? The fact that Bastian can exploit the weakness of every single enemy in 4-5 except Izuka is enough to put him over those two. Renning should be higher than Stefan and Volke as well; re-move should give him the edge over both of them.

And you asked if we were joking?

Also, I fail to see how Pelleas is better than Oliver.

-Slot competition.

-Speed (Oliver's lack of it).

That's the basic idea.

So...ignore?

I probably should have, but I want to be sure.

[RNG Princess]

I never got the point why people say vulenaries are better than staves :/ they waste a player turn and can't perform long range healing.

@ the Soren comment maybe he's confusing it with normal mode.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

After looking at DonDon's videos I am convinced Mist and Rhys should be closer to each other, but I still think she has small advantages over him such as the bonds, the pony and supports promising better utility for part 4 and maybe endgame. However Rhys is still undoubtebly good for Part 4's desert chapter so I'm not entirely sure if she should go above him or not ;).

1. Don't capitalize my name (any part of it). I'm rather anal about this =P

2. I'm glad that we're taking baby steps. Now I just need to convince you that bonds and supports aren't as big of a deal as you think they are.

Bonds for healers, in the first place, are questionable to begin with, mostly because they need to be adjacent to the attacker to begin with. Additionally, none of Mist's bonds have class crit, which means that her small bonus of +5 crit is usually not even enough to get any listed crit with generic weapons. Which means that you have to resort to using killers, which means in turn that you tend to forego better 2HKO combinations because killers are pretty weak. Either that or you were taking a chance that you really shouldn't be taking in the first place.

The main draw of Mist's support is the +atk. Rhys also offers +atk. Mist's +def is, of course, a nicer bonus than +hit, but with another +def affinity, Mist only offers +1 def total, which is generally not enough to create a noticeable difference.

Also Kyza should drop to bottom imo, he's got no reason to be deployed since innate smite Mordecai shoves better and can use resolve better as well.

Yeah, I actually agree with this. I'd deploy Meg, Astrid, and Fiona, but I'd never deploy Kyza or Lyre. Even if Kyza's combat is salvageable with resources (not like it's any good still though...), he's just not worth using.

As for General Banzai, what year are you living in? Get with the times.

Edited August 12, 2010 by dondon151

[RNG Princess]

1. Don't capitalize my name (any part of it). I'm rather anal about this =P

2. I'm glad that we're taking baby steps. Now I just need to convince you that bonds and supports aren't as big of a deal as you think they are.

Bonds for healers, in the first place, are questionable to begin with, mostly because they need to be adjacent to the attacker to begin with. Additionally, none of Mist's bonds have class crit, which means that her small bonus of +5 crit is usually not even enough to get any listed crit with generic weapons. Which means that you have to resort to using killers, which means in turn that you tend to forego better 2HKO combinations because killers are pretty weak. Either that or you were taking a chance that you really shouldn't be taking in the first place.

The main draw of Mist's support is the +atk. Rhys also offers +atk. Mist's +def is, of course, a nicer bonus than +hit, but with another +def affinity, Mist only offers +1 def total, which is generally not enough to create a noticeable difference.

Yeah, I actually agree with this. I'd deploy Meg, Astrid, and Fiona, but I'd never deploy Kyza or Lyre. Even if Kyza's combat is salvageable with resources (not like it's any good still though...), he's just not worth using.

@ Bold thats ok :) I edited my post just for that :P

Your post seems to make sense to me for now since in order for bonds to activate Mist needs to be risked and healers aren't meant to be risked unless the player wants them to die. I have nothing I can say about Mist -vs- Rhys but I do admit based on my playthrough giving her the pony delays her performance on either of the two chapters.

For 4-2 Mist having the horse lets her keep up and its actually useful having her carry torch staff with her but it will cost her on 4-5 to not climb ledges.

If she's promoted on 4-5 then she doesn't have the luxury of running around freely in 4-2.

As for Kyza I'm actually surprised you agree since I think you were the first one to disagree the last time I mentioned Kyza dropping, I'm not entirely sure it was you though.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

Ike is incapacitated due to late promotion for half of Part 3, and then is a liability in the last couple of parts of the final because he's got one of the worst resistance stats in the game. Not to mention, also due to late promotion time, he's probably not even hitting --/20/20 which while isn't a huge hit against him, makes me wonder why he's being placed above Haar, who is the only reason 2-F isn't insanely difficult, is not only usable for all of Part 3 but also far better than Ike statistically and utility-wise thanks to his flying and massive movement, as well as Haar's general overlevedness pretty much making him the highest-leveled unit on your team at that point (perhaps tied with Titania). When it comes to the Final Haar has higher resistance than Ike as well as higher MT and Canto which makes it easy for him to attack an enemy and then drift over to a defense or resistance boosting square, while Ike has no such re-move and thus doesn't have the same luxury. Haar also has a skill that activates far more frequently than Aether.

Nope. Ike shouldn't cap his level until late in Part 3, since that gives you more time to slowplay BEXP and give him good speed. Regardless, even with his level capped, he's still really good. 27STR, something like 28SPD, and an 18ATK weapon as well as 1-2 range, plus being pretty much indestructible.

Late in Endgame, we will be 1-turning many maps anyway. 4-E-2, 3 and 4 can all be beaten fairly easily in 1 turn.

Reyson being so high is a joke. He's only in a handful of chapters, is nearly impossible to get to a high level, is doubled and OHKO'd by nearly every enemy on the map, and takes a long time to get up that transformation bar, meaning until like ten turns into the stage he's got pitiful movement and can't easily get out of the way of enemies. He's a liability in any map that has Wyverns in it. And what does he give you? The ability to move 1 (or 4, after a set period of time) guy(s) again? You're usually better off just standing still and letting the enemy massacre themselves on your beastly stats by the time Reyson becomes available. And you've got him pegged as the second-best unit in the game? You must be joking.

Sadly, standing still does not complete the game. Reyson's Vigor allows people to place themselves closer to more enemies, meaning more enemy phase exposure, or reach Seize tiles more quickly, or reach bosses such as Izuka more quickly. Laguz Stones are abundant and Reyson uses them better than any other Laguz in the game since his gauge is slow without them but with them, his gauge remains full for a while because he doesn't enter combat.

I fail to see how Mia is a more appealing option than Gatrie, Shinon, or Titania. Being stuck to swords is not a good thing unless you're Ike. I don't even understand the reasoning for her being so high; what's so special about her? She joins at a moderate level, does moderate damage, and takes moderate damage. Why not use Gatrie instead? He comes five levels higher, uses a better weapon, does virtually the same amount of damage, and takes much more damage.

Well, Gatrie comes 3 levels higher, not five, his accuracy is awful without forges, he doubles very little in early chapters while Mia doubles everything, even Swordmasters that nobody else can double. Mia can give herself high avoid with a support, and she is generally durable enough to be relied upon to not die. In addition, she can use Adept very well, since she has a ~50% chance to activate it in a round of combat and it stacks well with her innate crit.

She also has better mobility than Gatrie, which is important in maps like 3-4.

Volug. Seriously? Volug? Volug is lousy. He's definitely no better than Sothe. Volug can't kill anything except Mages and Myrms in Part 1, and his high HP drops real fast because every enemy is doing over 10 damage to him. He's outclassed by Tauroneo in 1-6, Muarim in 1-7, and Nailah in 1-8 and 1-F. He gains pittance experience and his growths are lousy anyways. Oh, and when Part 3 rolls around, he's become completely and utterly useless. He can't do anything by then. And better than Sothe? Sothe, who is invaluable in 1-3 through 1-5? Sothe, who can at least do things in the later parts of the game? Really, Volug has nothing going for him. He's out-Jeigan'd by nearly every other Jeigan and can't reliably kill anything.

Volug in Part 3, base level, S Strike

49HP 36ATK 26AS 18DEF

20/01 Nolan in Part 3, with Tarvos

38HP 36ATK 18AS 18DEF

Apparently, 'kicking Nolan's ass in Nolan's best chapter' is the same as 'completely and utterly useless'.

Leanne is likewise ridiculously high, she's in even less chapters than Reyson (IIRC) and suffers from all his faults. Ditto for Rafiel.

I see no flaws with getting to move again.

Laura in Upper Middle is pathetic as well. She's better off not deployed in 1-5 and 1-6-1, and thanks to the uber Vulneraries in this game, is easily replaceable. She becomes useless as soon as Part 1 ends and Micaiah promotes and most of the time is just another unit who has to be protected, because everyone and their mother OHKO's AND doubles her.

Mist is laughably high as well; she's definitely a liability; Ike's guys are better off with Vulneraries. She's useless in 3-4 and 3-7 and is never a viable combat unit.

No comment on the healer hatred, since I can sympathise with it myself.

Soren is too low; caps half his stats after gaining 5 levels and after that is the single best candidate for Bexp in the game. Nearly every level of Bexp is guaranteed Spd and Def or HP, which irons out every statistical problem he has and also the fact that he's underleveled. He'll promote relatively early because of it and become a far better unit for healing than Mist or Rhys simply because he can take a hit and dish out damage instead of sitting around like a sop and soaking up a spot on your team. By endgame he's an unstoppable monster who has almost zero competition for the SS rank Rexcalibur. The fact that he's a high-res healer also makes him great for the later stages of the Final because thanks to AoE and magical enemies a lot of people will need healing and Micaiah can't always cover it herself.

Having used Soren myself, I can testify to the fact that he's awful. I have no idea how the second lowest levelled combatant on the team, with the worst durability of any combatant on the team and tied for the worst movement, is EVER going to promote without a pile of resources that could have been more useful on other people. If he doesn't promote, he's stuck at his awful 23SPD cap and never doubles. If he does promote, we wasted a Crown. Regardless of what we do, he won't double in Part 3 since he needs to be about 20/10 to do so, and he's always stuck with bad durability and bad movement.

Seriously, just try arguing him above Tanith. Tanith has flaws, but even if Soren was to go beyond the impossible and cap HP/DEF in Tier 2, Tanith would still match him in concrete durability and kick his ass in mobility, as well as have better speed.

Use Fortify and/or Ashera staff to cover 4-E healing. And as I said, most of the chapters are over pretty quickly.

Ilyana is also too low; she's basically a slightly lesser version of Soren who is also around in Part 1. Unlike Micaiah, she can actually take a hit and isn't doubled due to high base spd, which means you don't have to put so much effort into protecting her. She's got Rexbolt all to herself and becomes the single best unit you could possibly bring into 4-F-3.

Ilyana is basically Soren, but not content to be the slowest and least durable combatant on the entire team, she goes beyond the impossible and is even slower and less durable and has even worse chip damage to back it up. It's really quite funny - Ilyana not only gets doubled by many enemies in 3-2, but since she only has 9 luck, half the map has crit on her. Even Thunder Sages can OHKO her if they crit!

Not sure why I care about Rexbolt, when the only important enemy in 4-E-3 OHKOes her and she still does less damage than most other units and also has poor movement and can't combo with Ena.

Bastian needs to go up; lategame high stats healer who only has one unit to compete for an SS rank weapon, and you have him lower than Volke and Stefan? The fact that Bastian can exploit the weakness of every single enemy in 4-5 except Izuka is enough to put him over those two. Renning should be higher than Stefan and Volke as well; re-move should give him the edge over both of them.

Yeah, Bastian is pretty good in 4-5, shame he picked one of the shortest chapters in the game to be good in. Volke and Stefan kick his ass in every Endgame section except 4-E-3, where they're all useless. Well, Stefan can bless Wyrmslayer.

Also, I fail to see how Pelleas is better than Oliver.

Pelleas has two chapters where he can chip or weaken stuff and he's free to deploy in those chapters. Oliver comes in at the tail-end of 4-E-4, when everything's likely dead.

And the fact that Oliver is better than Pelleas in Endgame (which is only true if we don't Crown Pelleas) is irrelevant since we're not going to take them to Endgame since they're so bad.

[dondon151]

For 4-2 Mist having the horse lets her keep up and its actually useful having her carry torch staff with her but it will cost her on 4-5 to not climb ledges.

I'm sure you meant 4-1 (and 4-4 for the statement below). Anyway, a horse is helpful on 4-1, but only because fog makes it difficult for you to determine if healing is safe. Rhys can still stand at the center of the map and Physic pretty much anyone. Additionally, since Rhys has at least 12 staff range, and the most threatening enemies on this map (the FKs) can only have 11 attack range at maximum, Rhys is pretty much completely safe. Also, I don't really see a point in the Torch staff. It costs more, does the same thing as a regular Torch, and you'll already have at least 2, maybe 3 Torches available (and this is the last fog map).

If she's promoted on 4-5 then she doesn't have the luxury of running around freely in 4-2.

She also loses 2 move. I don't think this is as big of a deal as we'd want to make it out to be, though. Titania is forced on the Greil Army and can't climb the ledges either, and there are enemies on the bottom floor anyway, so there's no problem with Mist hanging back. It just means that Rhys has to climb up the gap and support the rest of the team with Physic.

As for Kyza I'm actually surprised you agree since I think you were the first one to disagree the last time I mentioned Kyza dropping, I'm not entirely sure it was you though.

You might be getting me confused with GJ. I don't really ever support units not worth using.

Edited August 12, 2010 by dondon151

[NinjaMonkey]

Lol, Gatrie takes more damage than Mia. Typo or different use of terms?

I think he means "can take more hits before he dies than Mia"

[Fenrir]

@ the Soren comment maybe he's confusing it with normal mode.

exactly, i love soren in NM but in HM he is shit.

Kyza can go to bottom as well.

Mist's bonds dont mean much because do we really want her at frontline? where Ike, Titan, Boyd and Jill are all going to be. her support CAN be nice, but Rhys has fire aff so hes not at to much of a disadvantage, and again Mist is not that useful for supports because she is far away. Unless we are talking about Int's pocket mist.

[RNG Princess]

I'm sure you meant 4-1 (and 4-4 for the statement below). Anyway, a horse is helpful on 4-1, but only because fog makes it difficult for you to determine if healing is safe. Rhys can still stand at the center of the map and Physic pretty much anyone. Additionally, since Rhys has at least 12 staff range, and the most threatening enemies on this map (the FKs) can only have 11 attack range at maximum, Rhys is pretty much completely safe. Also, I don't really see a point in the Torch staff. It costs more, does the same thing as a regular Torch, and you'll already have at least 2, maybe 3 Torches available (and this is the last fog map).

She also loses 2 move. I don't think this is as big of a deal as we'd want to make it out to be, though. Titania is forced on the Greil Army and can't climb the ledges either, and there are enemies on the bottom floor anyway, so there's no problem with Mist hanging back. It just means that Rhys has to climb up the gap and support the rest of the team with Physic.

You might be getting me confused with GJ. I don't really ever support units not worth using.

Torch staff is more expensive but I happen to like using it, I guess it personal preference but I like having Laura/Micaiah torch staff one side while Meg/Fiona torch the other side on 3-6. I like how the staff gives the same wexp as the mend staff, but its probably not worth its price.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[General Banzai]

Ike: Haar is always going to be at least five levels higher than him as he basically has 2-P all to himself and 2-F is filled with exp, while 3-P and 3-1 have less enemies and more viable units to split the exp between. Once Ike hits level 20, that level difference will only get higher. When Ike gets stuck on Level 20, Haar (--/20/5) will have +4 HP, +5 Str, = Spd, +2 Lck, +6 Def, and +6 Res, not to mention +2 Move and flight, as well as a 3rd tier skill that has about a 30% chance of activating. Haar's flight is useful in 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 3-7, and especially 3-11, and his higher move and Canto is useful during 3-8, as it helps him better avoid lava tiles.

Ike gets Ragnell near the end of Part 3, and even then, Haar will be doing more damage with a Steel Poleax (which, because of his high skill, he can use without fear of missing), and Haar only widens the statistical advantage he has over Ike with every level-up he gets, until Part 4 rolls around and Ike finally promotes. Haar is of course going Micaiah's route for the desert chapter, in which he is the single most useful unit you could possibly bring into that chapter (Naesala is a close runner-up but has to run away from the several Crossbow-weilding Snipers on that map). Ike, while statistically strong, is going to be underleveled and thus not too much better than most other units you've managed to train to that point. He's definitely not the single most useful unit you could bring in to either of his Part 4 chapters.

When the Final Chapter rolls around, Ike will likely have a speed advantage over Haar, although it won't be too great because Ike still isn't --/20/20 while Haar is. Haar will still be able to double all the generals in 4-F-1 and his flight allows him to easily jump back and forth from the two wings to the left and the right of the central path, as well as get around the enemy units who like to clog up those pathways and get to Lekain/Hetzel quicker so they don't pull out their obnoxious Silencing effects. In 4-F-2 Ike is trapped in the Black Knight's room, which basically makes him useless for the actual combat portion of the chapter. In 4-F-3 Haar is also doing more damage than Ike due to Urvan.

I fail to see one part of this game where Ike is superior to Haar.

Reyson: Reyson, untransformed, at base, has 11 speed, 6 defense, and 40 HP. So, perhaps he isn't getting OHKO'd, but he's definitely getting one-rounded. Until he transforms he only gives one unit and extra turn. He's only in six chapters before the final, and in his Part 4 chapters, he will have a difficult time catching up with Tibarn and Elincia. Why, then, is he so damn high? He's helpful. He can, in the right situations, provide an irreplaceable service that greatly benefits your team. However, for most of Part 3 Haar also provides an irreplaceable service that greatly benefits your team, only Haar isn't a liability and is also around about twice as long as Reyson. Having Reyson as the second-best unit in the game implies that using him instantly makes the game easier. I don't see how a unit who constantly needs to be covered and hidden from any possible enemy makes the game that much easier. As for Laguz Stones, you get a mere three in the game, if Serenes' information is correct. I fail to see how making it so Reyson isn't doubled but still 2HKO'd gives him an exclusive right to those, when they could be given to, say, Ranulf so he isn't a useless boob in all the Part 3 chapters you're forced to bring him in on.

And yes, I meant that Gatrie can take much more damage before he dies. >.>

Volug: In Part 1 at base, Volug has 25 or 26 MT (not sure if the halved transformation bonuses of his skill round up or down). Base Sothe with an Iron Dagger has 23 MT, +2 MT for his auto-support with Micaiah, giving him 25 MT. Volug has equal speed and defense as Sothe, too. All Volug really has over Sothe his high HP and movement. However, Sothe is around in 1-2, 1-3, and 1-4, when Volug is not, and in 1-6, you get Zihark, who is faster and stronger than Volug, and Tauroneo, who is much stronger and much more defended than Volug. Volug's only real use in 1-6-2 is charging to the right side of the map to perhaps save a couple more of the NPCs. Volug is only really the best Part 1 Jeigan in 1-5.

In Part 3, unless you're waiting for Volug to transform on his own without Formshift, his attack is not 36, even with an S-rank strike. His attack speed is only 17 or 18 with Formshift, and his defense only 14. Of course, if you know of some way that Volug can easily transform without Formshift, please let me know, as it would void this whole argument.

I'll concede Soren and Ilyana, you guys have me beat there, and Pelleas/Oliver are too close for me to really waste my time debating over, so I'll concede that one as well. But the other three: Ike, Reyson, and Volug, I'm going to continue debating.

[dondon151]

In Part 3, unless you're waiting for Volug to transform on his own without Formshift, his attack is not 36, even with an S-rank strike. His attack speed is only 17 or 18 with Formshift, and his defense only 14. Of course, if you know of some way that Volug can easily transform without Formshift, please let me know, as it would void this whole argument.

Use Olivi Grass?

Chapter 3-6 (1): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLjMy-kLEzM
Chapter 3-6 (2): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5ibnaA1T6I

Volug is at base stats. Observe how he absolutely destroys the map.

Edited August 12, 2010 by dondon151

[General Banzai]

Use Olivi Grass?

Chapter 3-6 (1): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLjMy-kLEzM
Chapter 3-6 (2): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5ibnaA1T6I

Volug is at base stats.

Olivi Grass isn't too easy to come across in Part 1, and you would probably want to give it to Muarim and Vika in 1-8 and 1-F so they can actually do things.

Oh, and sorry for coming across as a troll earlier. That wasn't what I intended, and looking back, that definitely was not the best post I could have made to try and prove my points. >.>

[Florete]

Ike: Haar is always going to be at least five levels higher than him

Quit talking like plain levels matter.

as he basically has 2-P all to himself

Half of it. By the time Haar shows up you should have at least half the enemies cleared out already.

Once Ike hits level 20, that level difference will only get higher.

And once again, that level difference doesn't mean much. Ike can slowplay BEXP for more Spd, allowing him to double where Haar can't, among other things.

When Ike gets stuck on Level 20, Haar (--/20/5) will have +4 HP, +5 Str, = Spd, +2 Lck, +6 Def, and +6 Res, not to mention +2 Move and flight, as well as a 3rd tier skill that has about a 30% chance of activating.

Level 20 Ike at the same time as 20/5 Haar. Lol.

When the Final Chapter rolls around, Ike will likely have a speed advantage over Haar, although it won't be too great because Ike still isn't --/20/20 while Haar is.

Did you miss the "Hard mode" tag on this list or something? It's in the description.

In 4-F-2 Ike is trapped in the Black Knight's room, which basically makes him useless for the actual combat portion of the chapter. In 4-F-3 Haar is also doing more damage than Ike due to Urvan.

Lol @ playing 4-E-2 like it's an advantage for Haar. Hey, who is that allows us to advance to 4-E-3? Not Haar, my friend. And in 4-E-3 Ike can use a Wyrmslayer.

As for Laguz Stones, you get a mere three in the game, if Serenes' information is correct. I fail to see how making it so Reyson isn't doubled but still 2HKO'd gives him an exclusive right to those, when they could be given to, say, Ranulf so he isn't a useless boob in all the Part 3 chapters you're forced to bring him in on.

Because giving 4 units another move is way better than making my cat transform a turn sooner.

His attack speed is only 17 or 18 with Formshift

His base AS with Halfshift (if it was Formshift he'd be epic) is 19. Earlier you even mistakenly said 20, so what the hell are you smoking?

But the other three: Ike, Reyson, and Volug, I'm going to continue debating.

Then you should be happy to know that there have been fairly recent arguments to put Haar above Ike and Reyson below them, possibly in High. But first you need to learn how to use all three properly.

Olivi Grass isn't too easy to come across in Part 1, and you would probably want to give it to Muarim and Vika in 1-8 and 1-F so they can actually do things.

There's enough around that they can use a few and still leave plenty for Volug in part 3.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

Olivi Grass isn't too easy to come across in Part 1, and you would probably want to give it to Muarim and Vika in 1-8 and 1-F so they can actually do things.

His playthrough is continuous. Check out his 1-8 and 1-E. If you think that you can do better while burning more grass than he did, be my guest. Trust me, if you don't suck you won't have grass problems in 3-6.

Oh, and sorry for coming across as a troll earlier. That wasn't what I intended, and looking back, that definitely was not the best post I could have made to try and prove my points. >.>

It would help if you weren't under the delusion that in an efficient playthrough of HM units will come anywhere near 20/20/20. Also it would help if you focused on what units do to enemies rather than minor statistical advantages. Like, say unit A ORKOs and unit B ORKOs, but unit A causes 60 damage and unit B causes 50 damage. Do we care? No. They both ORKO. Ike's level "issues" aren't actually going to be a problem.

[Shadow Mir]

Ike: Haar is always going to be at least five levels higher than him as he basically has 2-P all to himself and 2-F is filled with exp, while 3-P and 3-1 have less enemies and more viable units to split the exp between. Once Ike hits level 20, that level difference will only get higher. When Ike gets stuck on Level 20, Haar (--/20/5) will have +4 HP, +5 Str, = Spd, +2 Lck, +6 Def, and +6 Res, not to mention +2 Move and flight, as well as a 3rd tier skill that has about a 30% chance of activating. Haar's flight is useful in 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 3-7, and especially 3-11, and his higher move and Canto is useful during 3-8, as it helps him better avoid lava tiles.

Unless you're talking about Normal mode, I can't really see how Haar's going into part 3 with a 5 level advantage on Ike. Also, Haar gets -2 Mov in 3-8. Oh, and 2-P's half done by the time Haar shows up.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[dondon151]

Olivi Grass isn't too easy to come across in Part 1, and you would probably want to give it to Muarim and Vika in 1-8 and 1-F so they can actually do things.

There are buyable Olivi Grass in 1-8 and 1-E bargains. That's 16 uses total.

They only require 2 uses in 1-8, max. Vika gets 15 gauge from 1 use of Olivi Grass and 15 gauge from a no damage counter on turn 1 enemy phase. Muarim gets 15 gauge from 1 use on turn 1, but he can't transform until turn 3 whether he uses another Olivi Grass or not. Assuming that you don't find any extra Olivi Grass in 1-9, there's still 14 uses left.

1-E is variable based on how you clear it. If you went as fast as I did (6 turns), Vika requires 2 uses for 30 gauge and Muarim requires 1 use for 15 gauge. They should remain transformed for the entirety of the chapter. 11 uses left. Assume that you take a couple of turns longer; you use 1 extra for each of Muarim and Vika. 9 uses.

9 uses is plenty for 3-6. Volug needs 2 uses to transform on turn 3, and at worst he has to use Olivi Grass every turn, but chances are there are turns where he won't face enough enemies to warrant another use of Olivi Grass. A cat also drops Olivi Grass in this chapter. Let's say that you use 7 uses. 11 uses remaining. You don't get any Olivi Grass in 3-12, but you do get another one in 3-13, and 11 uses is plenty for both 3-12 and 3-13.

[Narga_Rocks]

There are buyable Olivi Grass in 1-8 and 1-E bargains. That's 16 uses total.

They only require 2 uses in 1-8, max. Vika gets 15 gauge from 1 use of Olivi Grass and 15 gauge from a no damage counter on turn 1 enemy phase. Muarim gets 15 gauge from 1 use on turn 1, but he can't transform until turn 3 whether he uses another Olivi Grass or not. Assuming that you don't find any extra Olivi Grass in 1-9, there's still 14 uses left.

1-E is variable based on how you clear it. If you went as fast as I did (6 turns), Vika requires 2 uses for 30 gauge and Muarim requires 1 use for 15 gauge. They should remain transformed for the entirety of the chapter. 11 uses left. Assume that you take a couple of turns longer; you use 1 extra for each of Muarim and Vika. 9 uses.

9 uses is plenty for 3-6. Volug needs 2 uses to transform on turn 3, and at worst he has to use Olivi Grass every turn, but chances are there are turns where he won't face enough enemies to warrant another use of Olivi Grass. A cat also drops Olivi Grass in this chapter. Let's say that you use 7 uses. 11 uses remaining. You don't get any Olivi Grass in 3-12, but you do get another one in 3-13, and 11 uses is plenty for both 3-12 and 3-13.

Also, since someone advocating 20/20/20 units for the end of the game clearly doesn't care about turncounts, the one in 1-9 that you mentioned should be considered fair game to him. That's 24 uses and you'd have to burn at least 18 of them in part 1 for Volug to start having problems in 3-6.

And if you are really crazy, there is a second grass in 3-6 that you can steal. That's a potential 5 x 8 = 40 uses of grass before the cat drops one in 3-13.

(Oh, dondon, the site doesn't actually mention a dropped grass in 3-6. I could watch your video to confirm that there is one, but you hit confirm way too quickly for me and I hate trying to look at stuff like that in your videos. Also there are two videos so I don't know which one has that part. I vaguely remember there being two in 3-6, so it is probably true.)

Edited August 12, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Might as well do these before I forget.

Those 15 uses do matter. 1 use can generally mean a difference of 1 turn if not wasted. Plus, consider that Physic can hit any unit within a 12 tile "radius" while Mist's shoving and movement advantages can only work on a much more limited scale (shove works 1 tile at a time, doesn't work if Mist is adjacent to an untraversable tile or needs to be shoved in the direction of an untraversable tile, movement is limited to traversable terrain, etc.). The opportunities for Physic to aid efficiency, therefore, are much more common than the opportunities for being shovable and having +1 move aid efficiency.

Now you're talking like Mist can't also use Physic. Remember that Rhys' advantage with Physic isn't 12, it's 6 and closing. That's part of the problem I have with the argument; how often is Mist going to be in danger when she's 6 spaces away from what she's healing? Then you get the issue of if she can reach, but that's where her higher mobility comes into play. In a normal playthrough I'd call myself very (un)lucky to need to heal someone that's too far away for Mist to reach with Physic.

You don't need such measures, but they work. Generally they work just as well as the growths strategies. Shouldn't this tier list consider everything that works well, not only the strategies that normal players bank on because they just don't have the incentive to try other strategies?

There are an infinite number of strategies that can be used and be successful. Why should the one that relies on Physic because of extreme circumstances mean so much as to actually change positions itself?

Only reason Mist is better is if you let her get attacked (and even then she's still ORKOd a lot), and considering the tier player is "perfect" it's inefficient for Mist or Rhys to be attacked in the first place. If we're valuing based of efficiency, not how much we like to use certain characters, Rhys has more advantages.

When did anyone ever say the tier player is "perfect?" We only don't assume the player does stupid things because it opens too many holes in arguments. Protecting against a mistake still works as an advantage.

Let me put it this way: It is not assumed the player will put Rhys or Mist in harm's way, but knowing it can happen and sometimes needs to happen is what gives Mist this advantage.

(Oh, dondon, the site doesn't actually mention a dropped grass in 3-6. I could watch your video to confirm that there is one, but you confirm way to quickly for me and I hate trying to look at stuff like that in your videos. Also there are two videos so I don't know which one has that part.)

It's definitely there. I've gotten it and used it for arguments in the past. I actually don't know why it isn't listed on the site...perhaps someone should tell Vincent.

[Anouleth]

Ike: Haar is always going to be at least five levels higher than him as he basically has 2-P all to himself and 2-F is filled with exp, while 3-P and 3-1 have less enemies and more viable units to split the exp between. Once Ike hits level 20, that level difference will only get higher. When Ike gets stuck on Level 20, Haar (--/20/5) will have +4 HP, +5 Str, = Spd, +2 Lck, +6 Def, and +6 Res, not to mention +2 Move and flight, as well as a 3rd tier skill that has about a 30% chance of activating. Haar's flight is useful in 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 3-7, and especially 3-11, and his higher move and Canto is useful during 3-8, as it helps him better avoid lava tiles.

Well, I personally also think that Haar is better than Ike, but it's not for the reasons you say. Haar is not going to be at such a ridiculous level, and many of his advantages are also overkill. 2-E can be completed very quickly, so Haar is not going to sit around gaining experience. He is certainly not going to be 6 levels higher than Ike. EXP gain is as slow as molasses in hard mode, especially when you are third tier.

Ike gets Ragnell near the end of Part 3, and even then, Haar will be doing more damage with a Steel Poleax (which, because of his high skill, he can use without fear of missing), and Haar only widens the statistical advantage he has over Ike with every level-up he gets, until Part 4 rolls around and Ike finally promotes. Haar is of course going Micaiah's route for the desert chapter, in which he is the single most useful unit you could possibly bring into that chapter (Naesala is a close runner-up but has to run away from the several Crossbow-weilding Snipers on that map). Ike, while statistically strong, is going to be underleveled and thus not too much better than most other units you've managed to train to that point. He's definitely not the single most useful unit you could bring in to either of his Part 4 chapters.

Well, Ike is himself a very useful unit since Greil Army is filled with fast enemies that attack from 1-2 range that he's perfect to deal with. Many other units can excel in Micaiah's Route, such as Janaff, Ulki, Jill, Skrimir, Naesala, Calill and Tanith.

I'm really hard pressed to come up with a better unit in Ike's chapters. Nailah has no 2 range, Mia has strength issues, Titania can't climb ledges and has potential speed issues, Gatrie has mobility and speed issues, Shinon has no 1 range. Nailah is probably better if only for the movement advantage, but that's about it.

When the Final Chapter rolls around, Ike will likely have a speed advantage over Haar, although it won't be too great because Ike still isn't --/20/20 while Haar is. Haar will still be able to double all the generals in 4-F-1 and his flight allows him to easily jump back and forth from the two wings to the left and the right of the central path, as well as get around the enemy units who like to clog up those pathways and get to Lekain/Hetzel quicker so they don't pull out their obnoxious Silencing effects. In 4-F-2 Ike is trapped in the Black Knight's room, which basically makes him useless for the actual combat portion of the chapter. In 4-F-3 Haar is also doing more damage than Ike due to Urvan.

Uh, Haar is NOT 20/20. Let me check quickly what level I got Haar to for Endgame.

Okay, Haar got 12.32 and Ike got 13.44 . It's debatable whether Haar will even double Generals. Even at level 12, his average speed is only 28, which doubles nothing in 4-E-1. Even with a Speedwing, he can still come short.

Reyson: Reyson, untransformed, at base, has 11 speed, 6 defense, and 40 HP. So, perhaps he isn't getting OHKO'd, but he's definitely getting one-rounded. Until he transforms he only gives one unit and extra turn. He's only in six chapters before the final, and in his Part 4 chapters, he will have a difficult time catching up with Tibarn and Elincia. Why, then, is he so damn high? He's helpful. He can, in the right situations, provide an irreplaceable service that greatly benefits your team. However, for most of Part 3 Haar also provides an irreplaceable service that greatly benefits your team, only Haar isn't a liability and is also around about twice as long as Reyson. Having Reyson as the second-best unit in the game implies that using him instantly makes the game easier. I don't see how a unit who constantly needs to be covered and hidden from any possible enemy makes the game that much easier. As for Laguz Stones, you get a mere three in the game, if Serenes' information is correct. I fail to see how making it so Reyson isn't doubled but still 2HKO'd gives him an exclusive right to those, when they could be given to, say, Ranulf so he isn't a useless boob in all the Part 3 chapters you're forced to bring him in on.

Even me, a shit player, can keep all the Herons alive in all of their chapters. Why should they be penalised because you're too stupid to use them properly?

Laguz Stones do not only up his durability, they increase his mobility and allow him to Vigor four units instead of one. There are also more than three Laguz Stones in the game, and he only takes a handful of uses. Maybe a use in 3-5, 3-8, 3-10 and 3-11?

In addition, other Laguz do not get as much out of Laguz Stones as Reyson does. Reyson is limited entirely to Player Phase action, and if he uses Grass to keep his gauge up, he's not being useful, while other laguz can use Grass and work on enemy phase. An intelligent player will therefore give Laguz Stones to Reyson to get the most mileage out of them.

Volug: In Part 1 at base, Volug has 25 or 26 MT (not sure if the halved transformation bonuses of his skill round up or down). Base Sothe with an Iron Dagger has 23 MT, +2 MT for his auto-support with Micaiah, giving him 25 MT. Volug has equal speed and defense as Sothe, too. All Volug really has over Sothe his high HP and movement. However, Sothe is around in 1-2, 1-3, and 1-4, when Volug is not, and in 1-6, you get Zihark, who is faster and stronger than Volug, and Tauroneo, who is much stronger and much more defended than Volug. Volug's only real use in 1-6-2 is charging to the right side of the map to perhaps save a couple more of the NPCs. Volug is only really the best Part 1 Jeigan in 1-5.

Volug is also faster in chapters like 1-7 and 1-E.

In Part 3, unless you're waiting for Volug to transform on his own without Formshift, his attack is not 36, even with an S-rank strike. His attack speed is only 17 or 18 with Formshift, and his defense only 14. Of course, if you know of some way that Volug can easily transform without Formshift, please let me know, as it would void this whole argument.

Olivi Grass. I mean, who the fuck else is going to want it?

I'll concede Soren and Ilyana, you guys have me beat there, and Pelleas/Oliver are too close for me to really waste my time debating over, so I'll concede that one as well. But the other three: Ike, Reyson, and Volug, I'm going to continue debating.

I sympathise with your position on Haar > Ike > Reyson, but I think you are going the wrong way about this.

[dondon151]

(Oh, dondon, the site doesn't actually mention a dropped grass in 3-6. I could watch your video to confirm that there is one, but you hit confirm way too quickly for me and I hate trying to look at stuff like that in your videos. Also there are two videos so I don't know which one has that part. I vaguely remember there being two in 3-6, so it is probably true.)

I believe Jill KO'd an untransformed cat and got the Olivi Grass as a drop. I don't remember in which segment it is.

(I thought 3-6 was one of my slowest chapters. Too much decision making on the fly.)

Now you're talking like Mist can't also use Physic. Remember that Rhys' advantage with Physic isn't 12, it's 6 and closing. That's part of the problem I have with the argument; how often is Mist going to be in danger when she's 6 spaces away from what she's healing? Then you get the issue of if she can reach, but that's where her higher mobility comes into play. In a normal playthrough I'd call myself very (un)lucky to need to heal someone that's too far away for Mist to reach with Physic.

You can have a varying set of objectives that results in needing Physic. Probably the easiest to illustrate are arrive and seize, as the goal there is simply to get unit A from point X to point Y as safely and as quickly as possible. In cases like that, not only can neither Rhys nor Mist keep up, but you're probably leaving enemies alive along the way, so it's dangerous to have them follow close behind. In those cases, 12 Physic range (the equivalent of 2 turns of movement for Rhys) is a great boon. If you looked at my 3-4 video, you will notice that after 3 turns, Haar and Ike are so far ahead that even if Rhys starts in a lead position, he still needs either a rescue + drop or 4 shoves to reach a tile where he can Physic Haar. And even then, he needs to be rescue + drop'd back to safety. Then you have maps like 3-11, which obstructs grounded units with sandbags and pitfalls, but Haar, Janaff, Ulki, Marcia, Tanith, Sigrun, and Leanne are completely unrestricted.

Even rout maps are not necessarily as simple as "obliterate everything in your path while moving from point X to point Y. It's probably more efficient to clear those maps if you, for example, took Haar with Savior and Celerity and dropped Ike on the other side of the map while your lower move units focus on the more proximate enemies.

There are an infinite number of strategies that can be used and be successful. Why should the one that relies on Physic because of extreme circumstances mean so much as to actually change positions itself?

Because that is the fastest one, so it has the most weight. The faster you go, the less permutations are possible for equivalent clears.

Edited August 12, 2010 by dondon151

[Interceptor]

Now, I'm anticipating that someone is going to invoke the "this is a playthrough under exceptional circumstances, so the consequences in the videos should not be reflected in the tier list" clause.

You're anticipating that someone is going to make your straw man come to life? That's pretty optimistic of you. What you've said above did not actually happen, even though you carefully put it between a pair of quotation marks. In reality, there is nothing wrong with a playthrough helping to inform arguments on the tier list. It's useful to have real-world experience to back up various bits of theorycrafting. However, your PT in particular comes packaged alongside three major things that considerably hobble its usefulness in this aspect:

1) 0% growths: no unit ever gains a stat outside of boosters and promotion bonuses. The implications of this are manifest, particularly since your run is actually worse than the worst possible case of RNG-screwage. The longer down the growth path that your run goes, the more it diverges from reality.

2) RNG manipulation: you rely on high chances of turn-count failure at times, at rates many people would deem unacceptable if they were some particular character's chance of death. There is nothing inherently wrong with chance-based things, but yours go so far as to trivialize the impact of non-guaranteed offense and avoid-based durability, for starters, which is not helpful for the tier list.

3) Narrow strategies: often times, in addition to RNG shenanigans, you have tight strategies that rely on very specific positioning and movement. Your playthrough is infinitely close to 100% on the Tier List Laffer Curve. This is nice for you, but not very helpful for tiering, since it significantly constrains the ways for us to discuss character differences. Note that this is not the same thing as "Gatrie is doritos for the 3-3 Master Crown" type argument, since [a] it's arguable, and it encompasses a more broad spectrum of possibilities for him.

This is not a criticism of your 0% growths runs, which are impressive in execution and interesting to watch. But when you have a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail. I am just pointing out that there is a limited amount of value to the tier list contained in your run. If you're so passionate about the specific results of your run being reflected in rankings, you should just make your own tier list. With hookers, and blackjack. I think that this list is better served with a broader suite of possibilities.

You may disagree, but that's where I stand.

As an aside: WTF @ this guy who rolls into a 20-month old, 6000+ post thread, and proceeds to lay down a bunch of crazy shit, with no preamble whatsoever. I hereby proclaim you the August 2010 winner of the Giant Brass Balls Medal, in recognition of your willingness to stroll naked up to a beehive, and then hit it with a baseball bat. Congratulations are in order, as this accolade is generally awarded posthumously.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Interceptor