Super Smash Bros Universe Mafia

[Subieko]

Then D2 came around and he said he, subieko and proto should be top suspects when the town doesn't even know if the mafia kill can bypass stages

You brought this up wrt Scorri's posts as well, but why do you think the kill would always bypass stages? If night actions in general do not bypass stages, I see no reason to assume the NK does. Until you brought this up the idea that the NK would always ignore stages never crossed my mind.

" At least the Mafia can send different players to do the killing" again prancing around knowing more than he should.

It is pretty standard for the mafia to be able to choose which of them does the kill. Suggesting that in this game they cannot is much closer to knowing more than you should than assuming things are as normal is.

[scorri]

Subi: ... who was that post directed at?

[Grace]

Sure. Be glad to.

We currently have one claimed investigative role. With an unknown amount of other ones.

If we all grouped up onto one stage, we get a whole 1(+) investigates. However, the mafia would be able to kill whoever they wanted, and we wouldn't be able to figure out a specific group of people that it could be.

However, if we split up, we still get 1(+) investigates, which might be limited, but we could organize people to stages in order to have certain people able to be targeted, and people who don't comply would be under much scrutiny the following day. And then we can also figure out a subsect of people who may have taken the kill (stage ignoring kill should still be considered).

Which would give the most information? Option number two, regardless of the number of investigative roles. Got a problem? Say so.

[Grace]

that post of at Excellen, for reference because NINJAS

[Shinori]

Okay I'm back let me read and get caught up and ill make a post tonight.

[Subieko]

Subi: ... who was that post directed at?

Sorry, I was replying to Excellen and didn't quote it properly.

Thinking re: value of splitting up--this is a ridiculous meta reason, but I've been thinking that there must be some use to going to various stages, because if Town could gain a significant advantage by always bunching up on a stage then there would be little point to having the stages in the first place. So I feel like Kaoz and Paper would not have designed it that way because in a game with stages presumably the designers want the players to have reason to use the stages.

[Elieson]

Will gladly post more in tomorrow time. Today's been a f*'d day.

I apologize for not focusing or being active today like I planned. I know it doesn't excuse my past lack of activity in this thread, but I hope it excuse's today's lack of activity.

My dog got out today, and got hit by a speeding truck in our neighborhood. Bastard got away, but I'll let you assume what happened later on with Shadow (my dog)

Anticipate activity from me tomorrow. I just need the rest of tonight for my son; it was his dog first and foremost. If anything, I'll want to be active here to distract me from, you know.

[Jotaro Kujo]

I spent so long working on a post and then I accidentally closed out of the wrong tab, losing it.

Ok, now I'm going to do this again, and hopefully I won't lose it this time.

I'm feeling really "bleghuruegh" because I was at a friend's house today, and I got carsick on the ride home, so this post isn't going to be as long as I'd hoped because I'm fighting passing out at my desk to make this post.

I voted for Kay because I honestly thought that was the best choice out of the three wagons. I wasn't going to vote for myself, because that wouldn't have been smart, and Eclipse was really trying hard to work through feeling shitty to make posts and to help the town. Did it affect her playstyle? Yes, it did. She made mistakes, but she tried, which is why I didn't-and still don't-think that she is scum. Obviously, I made the wrong decision when I voted for Kay, and I helped to lynch our rolecop. :/

My opinion on Eclipse is subject to change, by the way. Just because I don't think she's scum right now, doesn't mean she won't say or do something that won't make me change my mind.

Now, Excellen said that we all should pick a stage and go there, and to weigh the pros and cons, so let's do that.

Pros: Whoever has an action will have an increased probability of it going through (not counting roleblocking), because they won't have to worry about their target going to a different stage. The vig has an increased chance of shooting a mafia member. If the mafia really can shoot across stages, then we won't have to worry about them shooting into a different stage to mess with us. (If they really can do this, then I really doubt them using it N1. Something like that should have a limited number of uses, so while I see the benefits of them using it N1, it's a really risky move and I'd like to think that the mafia is playing better than that.)

Cons: The mafia will be on the same stage as everyone else, so a kill will happen. Some stages mess with actions, so there's a chance that some actions won't go through, or they won't go through properly. There's a chance that the vig will shoot someone that they think is scum and they will flip town, making two townie deaths.

That's all what I can think of for the time being, but if anyone wants to add to this list, then please, feel free.

There's a lot of heat on Proto right now, for reasons that I will have to find out when I re-read the thread to catch up on what I missed. From what I can tell from a quick scan, he's making poor defenses and arguments to the people that are suspecting him. I'll read once this headache and pukey feeling goes away.

Also, Elieson, I'm so sorry to hear about your dog. I know how it feels to lose a pet to vehicles (when I was 5, my cat got hit by a car), so if you or your son needs someone to talk to, then I'm here.

[Kay]

Aw... I'm really sorry to hear about that, Eli...

[Subieko]

:( Sorry about your dog Elieson. *hugs*

[eclipse]

Ohmygosh. . .that's twice.

On one hand, trackers tend to be town. On the other, Impy's not exactly acting town. Seriously, stop dodging stuff that's aimed at you.

[Jotaro Kujo]

I am not fully up to date with the thread, Eclipse, I'm not dodging anyone. I'm about to head to bed, so tomorrow when my head's clear and I don't feel like puking my guts out, I'll provide my role PM, and quotes as to why I voted for Kay.

[eclipse]

All right, I guess. You could've said something earlier.

[Jotaro Kujo]

There's a lot of heat on Proto right now, for reasons that I will have to find out when I re-read the thread to catch up on what I missed. From what I can tell from a quick scan, he's making poor defenses and arguments to the people that are suspecting him. I'll read once this headache and pukey feeling goes away.

way ahead of you, Eclipse :P

[Strawman]

Are you seriously going to judge someone on the performance of the guy they subbed in for, who made 2 posts in total and in the first day or so of the game? When you were still RVSing on the second I believe? GG trying to incriminate someone. If we don't have proto to do it, you take his place?

Well considering that was just part of one sentence in a paragraph with my thoughts, no. And just because someone subs out doesn't mean their actions are void. And that still wasn't even hardly at all my main or most of my reasoning as to why I voted him. GG picking out one tiny piece of my post and flipping your shit over it.

I would want to remind you that I explained why I made that random vote but you probably started reading it and skipped over it as fluff because thats apparently what everything that isn't a vote or calling someone scummy is to you. "Fluff" can actually be fucking legit opinions and I'm sorry if you're too busy whining your ass off about long "fluff" posts multiple times a phase(and multiple times on one page) because you're too lazy to read everything.

And you can't expect every post or every read on every player to come to a definite decision whether or not that person is scummy. You complain about it a hell of a lot yet you do it in your own posts.

Just look at this whole post:

Also as a general notice; I would like all players to place themselves on the same stage for the night phase to allow the information roles to target whoever they want to.

I'm having a bit of trouble getting reads this phase, by the way. I'm currently ISO'ing the posts of several players but I just can't decide whether or not I find someone more scummy or more town. I suppose I've started waffling.

Some assorted opinions on various selected individuals:

TinyImp: Timps posts can be summed up as this: waffling, waffling, joining a shinori wagon, joining a Kay wagon, claiming because she got votes and then outing night results. I'm fairly certain SB will confirm the night results but this doesn't say anything about her alignment IMO. The reasons for the Kay lynch were only so-so in my opinion and there were more worthy lynch targets, so joining that lynch doesn't make her look good. Would consider lynching her.

Strawman: first post is an RVS which was an incredibly stupid thing to do at that point, but I suppose it was just stupid. Followed up by a huge post dealing mostly with fluff then a paragraph with reads which amounted to "I don't think anyone is scummy really". Followed by an eclipse vote post which I feel was justified at that point in the game. Vote on Kay was again in my opinion so-so. Then a post saying he doesn't agree with eclipse being scummy, which I agree with though he somehow considered Kay a better lynch target than Timp when I think Timp was the better lynch target that phase. Then makes an interesting post about cop claims turning out to be mafia cops in 2 recent games. Then D2 came around and he said he, subieko and proto should be top suspects when the town doesn't even know if the mafia kill can bypass stages. Then some fluff post about kill bypass. Then a post where he attacks Prims over "dragging out the doc", which is torn from it's context pretty horribly.

Overall not feeling great about strawman but not sure if it's worth the vote

scorri: There's this sort of scorri vs prims war going on in which I don't really see the basis. Will adress prims later on. First insightful post was on D2 which I'm not pleased with but it's not scumtell. Proto vote was reasonable though wagoning. Not really liking she thinks mafia are bound to kills on stages they are on, seems like she has a reason to make that kinda claim and she's not making it when it's so incredibly important to how the town deals with night results.

Proto: Now that I'm taking the time to read over Proto's defense I'm liking it less and less. Saying just enough for a defense but too little for something really proper and he also missed IMO a likely reason Naglfar didn't kill; he was killed by the mafia for playing a highly pro town and intelligent game, which blocked his kill because the mafia kill has a higher priority. " At least the Mafia can send different players to do the killing" again prancing around knowing more than he should.

Unfortunately though I don't feel as strongly about lynching proto as I used to. I'm not sure how to deal with this.

Prims: Naglfar seemed to suspect Prims before he died. Which is a nice coincidence. Posted a fucking enormous amount of posts, beaten only by eclipse. Made some decent D1 posts, started a wagon on eclipse which was a decent choice at the time. Takes some time to defend Kay here and there, which I approve of. Then at the start of N1 remarks that eclipse/bizz need rope/bullet. I don't follow him on the "scum bizz gets disinterested and subs out" idea and if there's one thing that's striking me as awkward in his play it's this. Simply because I haven't seen him use meta and just "gut feeling" before. Plus it's awful argumentation and I'm not too happy about him outing it immediately instead of building a case.

Overall I'm finding very little reason to view Prims as scummy at the moment.

You only give a definite scum or not scum opinion on one of those people and that Folgore Pink, and even thats iffy. You're only iffy on me, you don't make a decisive statement about scorri. You contradict yourself twice with proto. In a post not too long ago you said his defense was looking reasonable. But oh wait never, you don't think its reasonable afterall. Yet huh, you don't like defense now and you don't like how me missed the naglfar no kill possibility but somehow you feel LESS inclined to lynch him. You start to form a solid opinion on Prims but then second guess yourself there as well. And very little reason =/= no reason. Is this an incredibly shallow interpretation of your post. Yes, but I'm just using your own reading and comprehension standards apparently.

i know I quoted your whole fucking post too but if someone has a problem with it then they can whine all they want.

Am over reacting? Yes. And I have no clue why but all of the sudden I got pissed.

Elieson, Sorry about your dog.

I will see you all tomorrow and I will try to calm down.

[Shinori]

Well I should really get back to being active here, I only skimmed over part of the thread and I figured I would post a few things before I go to bed, more in-depth tommorow either before my interview or after. Idk yet. Anywho. Proto and psych both claim vanilla with the ability to get stronger then I assume someone in this game is squirtle as well. However Prims has a point it doesn't mean that all 3 of them would be town, I actually think with the possibility of all 3 of them being in the game and all 3 of them having the possibility to grow stronger then at least one of them would probably be scum, since just at a glance you normally wouldn't be able to tell which of the three is scum from role pm.

I think strawman is most likely town based off of subieko's weird claim thing that verified strawman's claim however, that doesn't mean I think subi is town. I don't remember if this was talked about or not because as i said, I skimmed, but couldn't strawman have just used his role on subi who was scum and it still have the same effect? Or would something different have happened strawman? If this was already talked about just say that and when I go in-depth reading tommorow I'll catch it.

Scum reads still from proto and partially prims, but I'm not entirely sure, I need to ISO him, but he's weird. Also I have a weird feeling about Timp; possibility of scum tracker maybe? Besides that I need to sit down, read this thread, stop being lazy, and stop procrastinating, I'll get on this tomorrow.

Also I apologize before hand if i missed any questions focused at me, I didn't see any. Now I have to sleep cause interview tommorow.

[Shinori]

Oh also, I will most likely disclose the stage i'm going onto before phase ends.

[Kriemhild]

Also as a general notice; I would like all players to place themselves on the same stage for the night phase to allow the information roles to target whoever they want to.

I was considering this during early Day 1 but I decided it would be a bad idea. The main reason being that we can't record any patterns in the Mafia activities. Who died on which stage, and who was on that stage. Take Naggy's death, for example. There's a good chance that one of Proto/Subieko/Strawman is scum, because they were on the same stage. Yeah, there's a possibility that the Mafia kill can bypass stage kills, but as was said many times before, it most likely has limited uses. No, I'm not making an unreasonable assumption by thinking that it has limited uses, because the ability to bypass stage restrictions when killing is an exception to the rules (Rule 5), not part of it. Now, I know that Rule 15 allows for exceptions, but the fact remains that mods don't design games to let the flow depend on these exceptions. Can you imagine a mod trolling everyone by putting a Hidden Player/Reviver and justifying it because their role PM makes rule 15 supercede 16/11? Basically what I'm trying to say is that it's okay for you to assume that the Mafia CAN bypass stage kills, but it's stupid to assume that the Mafia WILL bypass stage kills every single night. The mods would not have designed the roles to let these exceptions run the entire game, since it's a disregard for the rules and the unique design of the Smash-themed games. If the Mafia can bypass stages, it's of limited uses or has some restriction like "not used consecutively" or something. Definitely not an every-night thing.

There are other reasons why we should split up. For instance, it prevents Mafia from claiming information that was shared to them by their buddies. Let's say we have a theoretical Cop claim, X, for example. If X claims to have investigated Y, with Y confirming the result, then it means that either X really is a Cop, or X is Mafia and his scumbuddy is either Y or a Mafia Cop Z that was on the same stage and investigated Y. If X is Mafia, it would be incredibly inconvenient if X wasn't actually a Cop, but was Mafia relying on Z for Cop results (X may have claimed Cop because he was pressured to claim and wanted to hide his true role). X wouldn't be able to get away with this fakeclaim for long, and might end up exposing Z as well if this keeps up. This doesn't just apply to info-roleclaims but any ability that can be proven/confirmed (like a Roleblocker).

Pros: Whoever has an action will have an increased probability of it going through (not counting roleblocking), because they won't have to worry about their target going to a different stage. The vig has an increased chance of shooting a mafia member.

Well, actions are sent AFTER the stages are revealed, so there's no chance of a failure beyond roleblocking (or similar roles that tamper with actions). Unless you mean that someone decided to target a specific player BEFORE the night phase, but couldn't because of different stages, which is the ONLY reasoning that Excellen gave. While this certainly can be an advantage at times, keep in mind that information roles won't be "wasted" if they don't get to visit their favorite target (unless a Cop already investigated everybody on the stage already, but Day 2 is far too early to be worrying about such scenarios). They still learn SOMETHING, at least, even if they could have learned something better. Furthermore, this single benefit of gathering in a single stage is no way restricted to the Town alone. The Mafia benefits from it in the same way. For example, if we split stages, the Mafia may not be able to roleblock a known power role that they want to suppress, because their Roleblocker is stuck on a stage with players of unknown roles, Vanilla claims and/or less threatening power roles. Imagine a Mafia member being the most suspicious player on a stage with a known Cop but no Mafia Roleblockers, while there's another player elsewhere that they really want to kill. Yeah, you get my point.

Now, back to Excellen

Proto: Now that I'm taking the time to read over Proto's defense I'm liking it less and less. Saying just enough for a defense but too little for something really proper and he also missed IMO a likely reason Naglfar didn't kill; he was killed by the mafia for playing a highly pro town and intelligent game, which blocked his kill because the mafia kill has a higher priority.

Whether or not killing has a roleblocking effect depends on the mod. I did not miss it:

• The mods decided that dead players' actions won't go through. I've seen this before in a few other games that implement priority lists. I wish Paper/Kaoz could confirm or deny if this is the case, but they probably won't.

" At least the Mafia can send different players to do the killing" again prancing around knowing more than he should.

What the heck? Excellen, the last time I remember seeing a game where the Mafia did not choose who gets to kill was in a game that a) was held a long time ago b) did not have Trackers/Watchers so its only relevance was for roleblocks (or are you assuming this game has no Trackers/Watchers either, in which case you're knowing more than you should?), c) had a power role for every Mafia member except the Godfather, so they wanted the Godfather to do the killing, and finally d) DID NOT HAVE A FREAKING STAGE SYSTEM THAT WOULD MAKE THE GAME EXTREMELY TOWN-SIDED IF THE MAFIA CAN'T CHOOSE WHO TO KILL WITH

Can you please explain why you are actually seriously considering the possibility that the Mafia might not be able to choose who to kill with?

It is pretty standard for the mafia to be able to choose which of them does the kill. Suggesting that in this game they cannot is much closer to knowing more than you should than assuming things are as normal is.

And this is coming from Subieko, who is relatively new here and hasn't played much games on SF. Seriously, Excellen, what the heck?

[Bluedoom]

Ok so stuff I'm gonna say right now:

I totally trust Psych and Proto and I think they're town. I didn't say anything earlier because I didn't want to say that Proto has an upgrading possibility, but anyway, I'm gonna say that I'm the third guy of the trio which starts as vanillager and can get a role upgrade.

Also I'm gonna confirm that I'm not Pikachu or Squirtle, and I don't think Squirtle exists. I'm Piplup.

[Bluedoom]

Oh yeah, my sympathies with you, Eli. :|

[Subieko]

I think strawman is most likely town based off of subieko's weird claim thing that verified strawman's claim however, that doesn't mean I think subi is town. I don't remember if this was talked about or not because as i said, I skimmed, but couldn't strawman have just used his role on subi who was scum and it still have the same effect?

No, you're right. Strawman using his ability on me doesn't prove that I'm Town. My Towniness will have to be judged based on my posts and my own role-related claims.

Also I'm gonna confirm that I'm not Pikachu or Squirtle, and I don't think Squirtle exists. I'm Piplup.

Huh. I only ever played the SSB game that had the Pokemon trainer with the three Kanto starters so I had no idea Piplup was a character. Since you're claiming a role similar to Psych and Proto is there any reason not to post your role PM for comparison purposes?

Also I will be out most of today, but back in the evening to post again.

[Grace]

I'm really not liking the lack of activity. We haven't even got close to actually picking something resembling a lynch target.

And there's less than 24 hours left in the phase.

So far: I don't think Proto is a good lynch target, and neither are Subi or Straw. Which basically means I think that we should be looking elsewhere.

We need something to happen...

[Bluedoom]

Dear Bluedoom,

You are Piplup.

A Penguin Pokémon. It's one of the starter Pokémon received from Professor Rowan when the player departs from the Sinnoh region. It's a Water type, so it's strong versus Rock and Ground types. It's very cute but filled with pride-- it hates to accept food from people. When it levels up, it evolves into Prinplup.

You have no special abilities. You're here to root for your idol.

You are allied with the Town. You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

Also to avoid any confusion, as it should be pretty obvious by now, I received a role upgrade on N1. How did that happen? Figure it out yourself.

[BBM]

We need to analyze people's behaviours and actions in-thread. Just because this is isn't D1 doesn't mean we don't need to do that.

Anyways, Elieson's dog died, which is a good enough reason for me to unvote provided he comes back and does start contributing. ##Unvote

Now, I gave Eclipse a pass last phase for being sick, and I was hoping her play would be more active and involved this round and I don't think it has. She hasn't been very memorable this phase at all (neither have a bunch of other people, but eh). In the beginning she was on Proto with mostly everyone else, and then yesterday, other than one post on Blitz (who also needs to get in here), just had one sort of waffling post directed at Impy.

SB, who I also had suspicions against last phase, but against whom a wagon never really started, has also done nothing this phase. What's more frustrating is that I know he's ABLE to contribute, since I talk to him on IP Chat all the time, so I'm not sure if he just doesn't know what to say/do, doesn't really want to play (but then I'd question why he signed up again after SFM), or if he's lurking scum.

For now, I'm more interested in SB, since at least we know that Eclipse's role is what she says it is, even if her alignment isn't. ##Vote: SB

[Kaoz]

Votals

[2] Iris: Bluedoom, Subieko

[2] Serious Bananas: Manix, BBM

[1] Proto: Blitz, Prims, scorri, Daigoji Excellen, Subieko, BBM

[1] scorri: Iris, Prims

[1] Prims: Strawman

[1] Folgore Pink: Daigoji Excellen

[1] BBM: Prims

[1] Blitz: eclipse

[1] Excellen: Psych

[0] Subieko: BBM, Proto

[0] Elieson: Bluedoom, BBM

Voteless: Iris, SB, Folgore Pink, Shinori, Elieson, Proto

Phase ends in 17 hours, 16 minutes. Remember to choose a stage for the night.