Shipping Mafia - Rule 9a invoked for universal loss

[Grace]

Okay then, I think I'm on the same page now.

BBM probably skimmed that post or went for the textbook misrep, I'm not sure which right now.

[Ether]

My latter votes didn't really mean all that much, to be honest, Xinnidy. When there is this little concrete info to go off of, I'll toss a vote at things that make me feel uneasy, give me pause, something like that. I don't agree with the part of RVS which implies tossing a vote on someone for the sake of voting, but even small things can garner potential for a vote depending on what else is happening at the time. I voted Grassbridger because at the time, his vote seemed opportunistic. I switched it to BBM because he was overly harping over something that should usually be expected.

At the moment, I have to say I'm actually having some trouble following current talks. It looks like a back and forth over a misunderstanding to me, and I don't really have a concrete idea of where it's going just yet. On that note, not much has really changed since I posted last, so I'll leave my vote as is for now.

[charlie_]

Okay, let's see if I can actually get this post I tried to do 4 hours ago down.

I did scumread Grass a little then. I didn't put too much into it because it was only due to that one point earlier. I thought that my scumread of Cam/Shinori for being useless (not just inactive, there's the difference - Cam didn't do a lot even when he was here) although Shinori's improved a bit in my eyes. Even though his vote for me is pretty bad, based on slight metavibes (non specific), and calling me not moving my vote easy even though I explained why it was staying, I don't think he's scum.

Not liking Ether's comment in his last post about his votes not meaning much, and labelling arguments as in town fighting is pretty easy to do.

Cam still needs to get content out here, but for now I'm gonna switch to a more solid scumread.

##Unvote

##Vote: Grass

Grass really doesn't have a lot of solid content, his Manix vote was based on Manix's reaction test (at least I can see it as a reaction test, trying to get BBM to react and ask him what policy, and see how he acts which would help to indicate his alignment) and how he points out flaws in Manix's logic, then goes ahead and unvotes. Seems weird to me.

The reason for his Xinn vote was that he didn't know why she was voting for Shinori, even though it looked pretty clearly like RVS, and she hadn't posted since then to have a chance to remove it. Seems kind of like Grass is coming to Shinori's defense with the wording of it as well.

Then he goes and talks logic and theory with Manix for a while, which I think is a null read at this point, and gets defensive over scorri's vote on him when it was also pretty obviously RVS. He gets pretty defensive over Manix (attacking BBM over it) when BBM only mentioned it and didn't cast a vote. The rest of his reasons for the vote, I don't have a problem with, though I do have mixed feelings on BBM myself.

[charlie_]

Kay was making a post and left. Come back!

[Kay]

I have no problem revealing my alliance- I'm town. Why do you care about that?

This is a silly argument. That was N0, presumably he didn't know what his alliance would be. Why shouldn't he be wary of saying something that might indicate it later? It seems silly to play in such a way that you'll be screwed if you end up as mafia.

One other thing since you and a few other people think I kind of contradicted myself/lied about my blitz vote I would like to bring this up.

If you agree that people can keep their rvs vote and you also agree with SB's "Townie's don't always tell the truth" statement then why would my blitz vote even matter?

Yeah, but contradictions should still be taken note of. You can't just say completely different things and argue that townies lie sometimes so nothing is wrong with it.

This is his first post really that is content wise.

I don't like how you phrased that, sounds like you're implying that it's a bad thing which is ridiculous in ED1.

And yeah I can easily think of exceptions to "mafia doesn't want information to spread" and "mafia wants to leave the game in RVS". For the first one, role information and such can be very useful to the mafia (like knowing who the cop is). And as for the RVS bit: if mafia assumes that the game is going to get out of RVS at some point on D1 (which seems like a reasonable assumption) then they're better off getting it going when there's wagons on only non-mafia people, rather than trying to let RVS drag on and maybe a mafia gets a wagon against them.

Nah. RVS going on for a long time easily outweighs those things, IMO. I doubt that mafia would want to help RVS end for any reason other than towncred.

##Vote: Shinori

I also don't like his reaction to BBM's nonsense any more than I like BBM's jumping on him for not wanting to reveal an alignment he didn't know.

[Shinori]

You have a vote on me that has reasoning consisting of four sentences? I know you can do better than that.

[Grassbridger]

SB: (and Xinnidy: too, and maybe anyone else who has played this game more than me:) Can you explain why Xinnidy's lack of a post since the first one means that he didn't "have a chance" to change his vote? Really he could have done it at any time, because he could have posted at any time. If you skimmed the discussion between me and Manix about theory, one of the important points Manix made was that we should be holding people accountable for ED1/RVS votes... asking Xinnidy to explain his vote was essentially that--except, I knew it was RVS, so I threw in the bit about changing the vote. Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with asking someone to explain their vote, and backing it up with a vote (especially ED1, when the person has no other votes).

Did I get defensive about having two votes on me? Maybe a little, but nobody had more than 3 and I kind of reacted to having the second-most.

If you feel my posts have been content-light, the good news is that I have a new read to share with the class. The bad news...

##Unvote (BBM)

##Vote SB

Shinori's improved a bit in my eyes. Even though his vote for me is pretty bad, based on slight metavibes (non specific), and calling me not moving my vote easy even though I explained why it was staying, I don't think he's scum.

So, Shinori's vote for you is bad, based on nonspecific vibes, and attacking you for things you already explained, and yet he's improved in your eyes? That's a scummy attitude.

[charlie_]

He improved from sitting there being useless with posts like this when there's genuine discussion going on. Shinori's attacked me with bad logic before as town (see Awakening, where apparently I was parked on someone for all phase when I'd only just subbed in a day ago) and I only said a bit. That's not to say I'm not watching him though.

To me it sounded way too much like you were defending Shinori there. What was the point in asking Xinn/scorri what there votes were for if you already knew? It's not like it would have generated much discussion besides a one word answer of "RVS", and asking lots of questions (particularly useless questions) is an easy way to look like you're contributing. Also way to bandwagon again, just sayin'.

Actually Grass, do you have a read on Shinori?

[Kay]

You have a vote on me that has reasoning consisting of four sentences? I know you can do better than that.

Number of sentences does not make anything valid or invalid.

[Shinori]

It was more or less a more subtle way of saying you don't have much of a case there.

[Grassbridger]

SB: I don't consider it bandwagoning if my reasoning is completely separate from everyone else's.

...wait, really? Bandwagoning? Nobody else has voted you since I voted BBM. I'm not jumping on anybody's bandwagon.

My read on Shinori is... confused. I don't want to lynch the same player D1 in two consecutive games (that's just not fun), but I'm aware that that is a reason which has nothing to do with Shinori's scumminess or lack thereof, and I'm having a hard time being objective as a result. Maybe I'll try to reread stuff later tonight, focusing on him, to solve that problem. (To clarify, right now I'm reading him null-to-slightly-town, but I'm probably being biased by silly meta reasons.) (Also this may account for "defending" Shinori, although I didn't intend to defend him.)

Asking people why their RVS votes are where they are? Well, as Manix discussed with respect to his BBM vote (that I jumped on him for), sometimes there is more to an RVS vote than RVS. And if not, then that person should change their vote now that there is actual content to make reads from. Which is what I was pointing out. I also asked scorri for other reads, still waiting on that.

[Shinori]

...wat?

You don't want to lynch the same person two games in a row? IF you think I'm scum why would that matter. You should be playing to win.

You're reading me as null-slightly-town yet you don't want to lynch me because it would be lynching me two games in a row.

That seems kind of contradictory.

[Grassbridger]

Shinori, you didn't seem to listen to what I was saying. I said, I don't like lynching the same person Day 1 two games in a row because it's not fun for that person. I also referred to that bias as "silly meta reasons". You also got my causation backwards: I don't like lynching the same person D1 two games in a row, which is influencing my read on you when it shouldn't be.

I'm used to playing (and running) games (including but not limited to mafia) IRL where "(other) people having fun" is as important a consideration as your wincon. For instance, in vanilla face-to-face mafia (which is what I'm used to), lynching the same person on D1 twice is quite rude, because you never really get solid scumreads D1 and you're lynching a random, and it's nice to let that person play. So, as I said, I'll try to overcome that bias to actually see if I get a scumread off you.

In short, I am playing to win and that should have been clear from my previous post. I will vote for you if I think you're scum, but I'm having trouble reading you for silly meta reasons.

[CT075]

i would argue that if one is always getting lynched on d1 then they need to improve the level of their play

[scorri]

##Vote: Shinori

What's wrong with Kay's case? Why doesn't she have a case? If her case is so weak, why not defend yourself against it? Why instead just dance around your belief that she's wrong and poke at how short her case is?

Your reaction to Kay, combined with your push on BBM for what is most likely just him misreading your post makes me quite content to leave my vote here for now.

[Shinori]

What push on bbm? I'm preeeety sure my vote is still sitting on SB. And I'm preeeety sure I said I don't think it would be regarded as a slip.

Hello misrep?

[Shinori]

This is a silly argument. That was N0, presumably he didn't know what his alliance would be. Why shouldn't he be wary of saying something that might indicate it later? It seems silly to play in such a way that you'll be screwed if you end up as mafia.

Yeah, but contradictions should still be taken note of. You can't just say completely different things and argue that townies lie sometimes so nothing is wrong with it.

I don't like how you phrased that, sounds like you're implying that it's a bad thing which is ridiculous in ED1.

Nah. RVS going on for a long time easily outweighs those things, IMO. I doubt that mafia would want to help RVS end for any reason other than towncred.

##Vote: Shinori

I also don't like his reaction to BBM's nonsense any more than I like BBM's jumping on him for not wanting to reveal an alignment he didn't know.

1: I didn't say two different things. I didn't contradict myself. First two sentences already broken.

2: Implying people don't already have good content. What's SB done since? It's much later into the day phase by now I'm pretty sure my post saying that he hasn't done much is pretty legit.

3: Doesn't like my reaction to bbm but also didn't like bbm's reaction. I don't really see how that adds anything to a case. What did you specifically not like about my reaction.

There I defended it was pretty easy.

[Shinori]

Man. I swear people change opinions all the time.

Half the time people say you should bother spending all your posts defending yourself and you should scum hunt but then scorri blatantly tells me to defend myself.

Hah.

[Grace]

scorri needs more opinions on other people

What push on bbm? I'm preeeety sure my vote is still sitting on SB. And I'm preeeety sure I said I don't think it would be regarded as a slip.

Hello misrep?

and also needs to address this because it's based in fact

anyway i'm feeling like shit right now so i don't feel like much but i think shinori is town from his reactions to the votes on him

[scorri]

You obviously don't understand what I mean. And the fact that you responded with that really confuses me. I don't know about you but on N0 my role pm said I DONT KNOW WHO I WAS OR ANYTHING.

I'm not sure if what BBM said or not was a slip or not.

He asked me why I didn't want to say who I was shipping on N0. I stated cause I wasn't sure what it would do or if it had anything to do with alliances. His response to it was that he was town.

Either implying he didn't understand my post, he didn't read my post fully, or that he already knew he was town which he couldn't have.

Just now.

I wouldn't really call it a slip but that still heavily implies that he either didn't understand the one post i made or he didn't read it fully which would mean he's skimming.

This was a series of your posts in a row. What interrupted them was you getting voted by Kay at which point you tried to hand wave her case away by saying that since it was so short there was no case to it. True, your vote was still on SB, but you sure as heck weren't saying things about him. You were pushing at BBM. Honestly, the fact that you didn't vote him almost makes it worse in my mind. You were pushing him for something that was either him skimming or him knowing who was town before he should have or him not understanding. Now, the first two of those sound pretty negative to me. You were painting him in a bad light, focusing only on him, but leaving your vote on someone else. At least to me, that's pushing him.

As for your most recent post, there's a difference between scumhunting/not defending yourself every post and completely handwaving away a case because it's short. You can in fact scumhunt and defend yourself.

[scorri]

Manix: I'm currently in the process of studying for a final exam tomorrow at 8:30 AM my time. I took a break to post here and this was the thing that stood out to me the most. After my final I'll have more free time, but until then you're luck you're getting any posts from me.

[Grace]

Manix: I'm currently in the process of studying for a final exam tomorrow at 8:30 AM my time. I took a break to post here and this was the thing that stood out to me the most. After my final I'll have more free time, but until then you're luck you're getting any posts from me.

okay fair enough, i didn't know that.

also is it bad that i'm not getting scumreads off like, anyone posting right now? ugh i need to reread

[Grassbridger]

Manix: yeah I had that problem too until SB's post, but he's still my only real read. Cam is pinging a bit now from his last post--Cam, can you really not do better than a one-liner about something not game-related? (And yes I know I started that whole line of thought, but it was game-related for me since it was affecting my judgment. Your post is just not game-related.) Overall, though, very few pings.

I partially blame not knowing whether we were town or mafia n0. I know that I started thinking about both "what if I'm town" and "what if I'm mafia", and I expect other people did too, so the mafia probably are a bit better off in terms of looking at things from the town perspective.

[CT075]

if i were to just answer "i really can't" what would that mean

[Grassbridger]

Apathy to the game?