Toonami Mafia: Game Over

[Prims]

Bard do you think scorri was doing that on purpose and then pretending to be confused about why it is scummy? Your posts toward her are reading more like :mafia101: now rather than "this person is scum" and I think her #242 is legitimate town bafflement.

[Snike]

Well, whaddya know. I learned something today. (reporting term)

@Prims: I can see why you thought that now, but earlier as far as I was concerned it was super meta that I don't have on him. I was sketched out by the initial claim because of faction mention +Manix being kidnapped + the second fact driving my thoughts to a previous kidnapper. The actual result paraphrase cleared up part 1, and the other 2 could be easily explained as priorities/not the same role. So my suspicion's eroded quite a bit.

[Prims]

Actually Reporter is a role that gimps Strege out of winning.

Given the nature of Manix's role the kidnap could point to multimafia, actually. or they just kidnapped him for towncred

[scorri]

Bard: Yes, it did sound (to me in my not great state of mind) like you were being condescending. Since you weren't, I apologize for assuming that.

"Scorri is posting but he hasn't got any reads". This is an observation of the current gamestate. If I leave it at that, I am calling you out on something and marking it as significant, but not lending a value to it as to whether it is scummy or not. Suppose CAPTAIN AMERICA, in all his AMERICA, finds that the observation is rubbish. A scum-aligned Bard never said it was scummy and can thus drop the point. Meanwhile, if Essbee comes in and says that it's very scummy, a scum-aligned Bard can piggyback, having safely tested the waters and seeing that others agree. Moreover, I can't be blamed for starting the wagon and I don't need to dig for arguments to say why you're scummy, since the others do it.

It's conducting people down a road without actually attaching yourself to it, which is what we call reporting and consider scummy because it isn't conducive to scumhunting other than having people make opinions about things you don't opine on. It's scummy because the point of the game is to convince others of your point of view, not to report the happenings of the game and hope your team manages to discover scum through your narration.

a) I'm a she.

b) I specifically said I didn't find it scummy. That's where I'm confused. I said "you're doing this thing, I don't think it's scummy, I just think it's hypocritical." Like... If I had just put the two quotes there and not done anything else I'd get what you were saying, but I very purposely said that I didn't think it was scummy.

[Bard]

... Legit enough. I'll accept Huh Whatty's assertion that it's not likely to be scummy and you're right, you did say it's specifically not scummy to you.

In any case, I'm satisfied enough with the line of questioning since it'd just be headbashing and there's no one helped with that.

##Unvote

##KickInFace: NekoRex

Being legit scummy + sheeping Huh Whatty.

Snike: I've played Mafia for several years at several places. I do admit I am rather fond of gambits, but making myself high-profile on Day 1 and spending the rest of the game explaining why I haven't died isn't my idea of fun, nor of a very smart gamble. Especially at this early stage when we have so little information to go on!

Speaking of, Xin should clarify whether they were serious or not (just in case), and it'd be awesome if CAPTAIN AMERICA could weigh in since I see them reading the thread. As does Shinori.

[riariadne]

I can't think of any reason scorri has to debunk that reaction test as town that I like, but I think the rest of her posts are good so no vote unless that changes. NekoRex's posts are all pretty bad though. Clearly not the first person to say this, but the voteswitch was horrid, and his other posts are similarly poor, such as missing what kind of cop claim... not feeling it.

Also Manix is probably mafia because Bard doesn't have any good reason to randomly sacrifice himself this early imhotep

##Unvote (SB)

##Vote: NNR

Don't really have any other scum reads yet, kind of early to tell. A few townreads but no point outing those.

[BBM]

Bard is probably legit, and NNR is scummy, but there's no real point to just sheeping another vote on him atm, so ##Vote: Snike.

He starts with a weird suspicion of the investigation results that doesn't really make sense. Why on earth would anyone fake results D1 on somebody who's not even there? The wording in his last post is also odd. His suspicion has eroded "quite a bit". So is it still there any? His reads in his second-last post are also kind of bad because he more or less handwaves the NNR case as "oh he's just stubborn", when that doesn't really prevent him from being scum. Why does his stubbornness nullify the other reasons people point out?

He says Scorri is slightly worse than Prims on the front of automatically assuming Bard is legit. Now, if this is the case, and he has a slight suspicion on Scorri, why is he completely ignoring the case on her? One would think that he should be at least commenting one way or the other on that.

And at the end despite some small suspicions against both Scorri and Shinori, he just retains his RVS vote, which I suppose isn't really all that scummy but just irks me.

[Xinnidy]

I am now on par with stuff.

read the thread scrub

Not reading N0.

Claiming to have scanned SK.

Seems legit enough for Early Day 1.

I wasn't even in the sublist

I assumed it was just Day 0 2.0

Curse you, policy early claims!

[spoiler=whoosh compacting!]

I want to take it easy on the spoiler posts but oh well.

I tend to take cop claims seriously. On the other hand, I don't take fakeclaim reports well as it tends to put the target in a panic and out a role that might otherwise be better off hidden.

Of course, SB himself doesn't seem to be taking it seriously, which gives me the impression that fakeclaim reports tend to happen way too often for their own good.

And I personally would have found very scummy if SB overreacted and felt forced to claim or so (or would have found it scummy if anyone pushed him to the point of him doing that), because it's a matter of opportunity and grasping the situation. If he were truly town, he'd have no reason to claim over this if I didn't press it any further without offering more to my case either ways. I didn't think absurdity/unlikely-chance pressure would be that hard to grasp.

Did I get something out of it? Not as much as I'd expected, there was Bard's claim just before, that I was hoping some people would overlook. Then SB reacted very soon in a way I'm not fond of, and people just sat in their faces expecting a response from me otherwise. It did rile some things up though.

So no, I was not claiming something true, but no, I don't regret it either.

For a last point on this regard:

Over and over I see people do either scummy things or place votes poorly and call them reaction tests. I see people do dumb things and call them reaction tests. And then nothing ever comes of them except people getting mixed up reads, people getting upset, confusion happening, and people excusing scummy things as reaction tests. I think they're dumb.

Then I declare your No-RVS voting at Volcanic mafia to also be dumb. After reading the game I found it was an interesting way to get more out of people (while admittedly getting more flak yourself), and I thought it could be something legitimate if made use of more, but not as a norm, naturally. Which is where I got this idea myself. Yes, it might have been a while and people change stances, but still. I personally don't care for the chance of failure of something as long as I see the potential in doing so, and can make a better judgement even when things don't go my way.

When all's said and done, anything further than this just feels bitter for me to say, and I feel the way you protest uses more personal experience at face value than what I'd give it credit to be a scum play, but I have to ask: If you find reaction testing dumb, what do you propose town should do? As far as I saw, your answer was to try to stay away from the thread until RVS was done with, which obviously didn't happen and you expressed discontentment with, so I'm open to hear your two cents. And yes, I do find this relevant.

Honestly though I'm happy it all contributed to a little content parade out here.

Now for stuff that I'm formatting differently because I'm lazy:

-To be fair while the whole manix situation felt pretty pretty awkward and somehow convenient, with fullcop claim over the kidnapped person that claimed miller and all, a mass hook is something I'm not ignoring, and all the detail provided with it makes it hard to believe the contrary. And though he did say that he does not know the mafia wincon while implying he'd still scan as it for some reason (in his very first claimpost), the part about his role not making sense as scum is clearly the greater offense as already pointed out a ton of times.

also i really don't give a shit about dying, so take that as another softclaim

This is also very contrarian to that notion. (as stated in post #125) Which was probably setting up for a fakeclaim and now my stance is ironed about manix being scum.

-I have little on NekoRex that hasn't been said before, however, I just expect more as soon as he posts again now that I've done such and confirmed my cop claim to be fake, so here's a cookie:

Actually I'm inclined to believe Bard isn't scum based on his results anyway.

##Unvote

##Vote: Scorri

You haven't mentioned about his results or even seemed to grasp his role prior to this post, or even mentioned manix at all ever. Congratulations!

Enlighten me some more as to why you have found his results so solid when you had some real trouble keeping up with what Bard actually was, and then had some suspicion of him counterclaiming me you kept for quite a while. Any opinions on manix would also be desired.

Also, I'd like for your purpose in making this post.

Also:

Guys have you not considered the fact that Xinny might be joking around?

even disregarding the fact I know it for certain people have faked cop reports before, this is just kind of being silly really.

##Unvote

##Vote: NekoRex

Even if he missed Bard, he seemed really certain that Xinny was the cop and that strikes me as suspect.

With all I've said, this may sound like an 180 on my opinion about my own cop claim, but could you reiterate the last sentence? What of it makes you suspect him for believing a cop claim? I don't see your case.

Right now, I'm fine on waiting an answer to this from you.

Focus death, be back in the morrow.

##mod: I only see conditions for hammer, are there deadline lynches in this game?

[CT075]

i read the thread and i have some opinions but i'm not coherent enough to say them so i think i'm gonna hold off for now so i don't say something i'm gonna regret (take that as you will)

although i honestly took xinny's thing as a complete joke

[Helios]

##mod: I only see conditions for hammer, are there deadline lynches in this game?

At the end of the phase, the player with the most votes gets lynched, regardless if it's a hammer or not (Elie if I'm wrong about this then correct me pls). Why do I imagine you to look like your avatar irl

Edited July 20, 2013 by Helios

[Bluedoom]

If she looked like her avvy in real, she'd be gorgeous. :3

[NekoRex]

You haven't mentioned about his results or even seemed to grasp his role prior to this post, or even mentioned manix at all ever. Congratulations!

Enlighten me some more as to why you have found his results so solid when you had some real trouble keeping up with what Bard actually was, and then had some suspicion of him counterclaiming me you kept for quite a while. Any opinions on manix would also be desired.

Also, I'd like for your purpose in making this post.

The last time I remember encountering a cop gambit, it was with a member who was subsequently banned from playing Mafia as soon as that game ended. Cop fakes make me super sad as a result. Stop fakeclaiming cop for reactions, there are a million ways it could go bad.

Anyways I remembered I have role-related reasons to suspect Manix is scum based on Bard's claim. Well, suspect more, anyway.

[NekoRex]

That post you linked was simply "You sure seemed tight-lipped despite having a deathwish", if it matters. I take cop claims (too) seriously, plus I wasn't willing to back down because I'm stubborn. Sue me.

I'm feeling really cynical right now and am already getting tired of this game, tbh.

[Prims]

i read the thread and i have some opinions but i'm not coherent enough to say them so i think i'm gonna hold off for now so i don't say something i'm gonna regret (take that as you will)

although i honestly took xinny's thing as a complete joke

The Camtech075 ladies and gentlemen

if you dont want to say anything you regret then. why would you allude to that in the first place. in fact why even make this post

?????

[CT075]

it was a "hi i'm alive" post

[BBM]

We already knew that though. You're literally putting more time into saying you can't make a post than it would have taken to at least give your reads, and then give the explanation later when you're more coherent.

Prims what do you think of my Snike case?

[Prims]

my read on Snike is "not great, wish he would be more committal, but not a priority"

I don't really think his cautiousness about Bard's result is scummy, just irrational. Usually scum know scum are telling the truth and just sheep, like me as fffff in response to eclipse/Fluttershy's track result last game.

I do agree his reads and vote are weak but I honestly have trouble blaming people for not having much to say at this point because I'm having the same issue, dead mafia game imo

[Zkirsche]

NNR is scummy but no point sheeping

Well first off lynches need a little bit of sheeping to actually happen and secondly this seems kinda self-conscious, which is weird in of itself.

I think I might have this weird vendetta against your playstyle but ##Vote: BBM

I'm a bit confused with the whole Xin'dy-NNR interaction and will reread when not tired.

[j00]

Is he a fullcop or just a rolecop? Having an alignment cop and a rolecop in the same game isn't unheard of.

I tend to take cop claims seriously. On the other hand, I don't take fakeclaim reports well as it tends to put the target in a panic and out a role that might otherwise be better off hidden.

Of course, SB himself doesn't seem to be taking it seriously, which gives me the impression that fakeclaim reports tend to happen way too often for their own good.

It kills discussion and makes you look like scum trying to force the topic to change to something else.

I still don't like his reaction to voting a claimed alignment cop, shitty fakeclaim or not. Nobody answered my question to what kind of cop he was anyway.

if you're taking cop claims so seriously why didn't you properly read bard's post where he claimed cop and results? one look at his results should've told you what kind of cop he was, it's almost like you didn't care what his results actually were and it was the fact that he was cop that caught your attention.

Over and over I see people do either scummy things or place votes poorly and call them reaction tests. I see people do dumb things and call them reaction tests. And then nothing ever comes of them except people getting mixed up reads, people getting upset, confusion happening, and people excusing scummy things as reaction tests. I think they're dumb.

while I do agree a lot of reaction tests are kinda dumb it's also something to call people out on. if they're doing shit and covering them up as reactions tests you can call them out on their bs and if it's a legit reaction test people might actually get useful reads off it, so I don't see it as a problem.

shinori and cam's posts bug me because shinori came in, basically said 'oh cop result let's not comment on that and continue rvs' voted prims, and left. cam's post was 'I have thoughts but not time to voice them oh but I don't think xinnidy was srs' which is probably a post he's going to regret anyway because it's a useless post. would like to hear anything else from them considering they made 'ehhhhhhh /effort' posts after things had happened and rvs ended.

##Unvote

##Vote: NekoRex

focused so much on the cop claim that he didn't read the scan properly is focusing on all the wrong things as town. you haven't even mentioned manix in this game and cares little about the details around his scan. it's like they weren't important because you knew his role anyway

[j00]

could we have a vote count, don't want to accidentally have nnr hammered and I'm too lazy to do it myself

also i see naglfar, hi, any thoughts?

[BBM]

There were like 3 votes on NNR already for the exact same thing. I didn't see what effect laying a 4th on him for the exact same reason would have. I'd rather pursue something on Snike for the moment.

[j00]

I find NNR a lot more scummier than snike so why?

my post doesn't bring anything new i guess but i think the reasoning for finding him scummy is solid enough. only Xinnidy has elaborated the same point as me, which is basically that his reading have been selective enough to question a lot about bard's cop claim, yet saying his results are good enough without actually mentioning Manix or his role at all, making it seem like he knew the result without reading bard's post. which only makes sense as Manix's scumbuddy.

others seemed to vote him after deeming his posts poor after interaction and citing his vote hop and stuff.

dunno why Xinnidy didn't vote anyone, she had a long listpost of reads that made sense.

but k, if you want more opinions on snike I'd say the stuff he's said has been a bit confusing, with his spec on priorities and asking bard to paraphrase, but I find his reluctance to follow bard blindly legit since I've also mentioned how claiming results on miller the phase miller is unavailable is unnecessarily risky. him hand waving NNR isn't that much worse than you saying 'yeah, NNR is scummy but let's pursue Snike instead' since you didn't leave any comment on NNR either.

[Naglfar]

okay first of all prims, fuck you for saying everything I wanted to say :(

so important stuff, repeating as little of what's already been said as possible: neko didn't read the thread and voted the guy who claimed cop first for voting the RVS cop fakeclaim. after that was a lot of defensive behaviour and waffling; the only legit thing he's done so far is vote scorri for being defeatist and doing anti-town things, but the switch was so abrupt that it kind of looked like an excuse to get off a failing case. then this.

Anyways I remembered I have role-related reasons to suspect Manix is scum based on Bard's claim. Well, suspect more, anyway.

what do you mean, "remembered"? I read this and all I see is a desperate bussing attempt for TownCred. I'd like to hear more about these reasons.

so I'd vote neko but his wagon is already way tall and I'm with BBM on not tunnelling one guy all day.

##Vote: Snike

dude, you have a lot of opinions for someone who hasn't made a real vote yet. kinda bothers me. also cam should make a real post before he fucks off on a plane pls.

YO YO VOTALS:

Prims: Shinori (1)

Xinnidy: Snike (1)

SB: Xinnidy (1)

Snike: BBM, Naglfar (2)

scorri: NekoRex (1)

NekoRex: SB, Prims, Bard, Rein, j00 (5)

BBM: kirsche (1)

[Naglfar]

man I forgot how long it takes me to write goddamn anything. I should really write down my thoughts as I have them, otherwise posting after reading like five new pages as I always end up doing will continue to be a nightmare.

[j00]

oh wait BBM was responding to kirche, not me. makes more sense at least.

about kirche, there's a lot of other stuff going than NNR/Xindy interactions considering they're not even voting each other, is BBM the scummiest of all this, telling people not sheep? No comment on Bard's report on Manix, NNR's interactions with everyone else or the scorri/reaction stuff? don't like how BBM accuses Snike of handwaving NNR while doing it himself but you're not even mentioning that point against him, it's a rather weak vote.