Musical Chairs Mafia, Town Wins, the Mod Loses

[Zkirsche]

Wrt your first point, I did read past "don't know why you are" and just want to say that I don't understand why what you said at the end of that first point in #499 has any relevance to the hooker delaying his claim. What does the hooker have to gain by hiding for longer?

[NekoRex]

Have been busy all day, will post votecount when I get on later tonight

[Strege]

I read it that way because you're putting way too much effort into it. This bit here is entirely unnecessary:

That bit is me explaining my target. idk, someone might've cared. Explaining your target just seems like the default to me.

and the bit at the end just seems too... nice? Not sure how to word it, but it reads really off because it's like saying "it's ok to scumread me if you want...".

Well, I'd just got two votes and ideally the first claimant should be the most suspicious, so it worked out.

You were waffling about a likely lynch candidate, distancing yourself from it as much as possible in preparation for the flip. There's a difference between that and going "This is scummy about so-so, but ehhh" before a wagon has formed.

Except by distancing myself I was actually awkwardly connecting myself to Objection so hard, and then continued to do so after I gained suspicion for it. Yeah, there's a possibility to WIFOM here, but sheeping Prims to a town lynch, bussing scum!Objection, or shifting the wagon to Terra to protect scum!Objection would be way better options if I were scum.

They were? You were getting scum vibes from me but then the ISO came and you were like "oh wait" and did somethign similar with Refa, you were all over the place for a short while when it came to Kay, you voted Objection! despite him supposedly not being your biggest scum read and then Darros leapfrogs at least 3 people in your list of suspicions when you barely address him at all. That is not "clear", that is most definitely all over the place.

Yeah, but those reads were well-supported, except for my scumvibes on you of course. I couldn't change them drastically on a whim.

I don't because it's just an assumption I made.

That makes it worse because you didn't push him hard at all until there was a large wagon on him and even then you seemed regretful:

How does it make it worse that my case on him was strong? I pushed him as hard as I could with as little content as he had and then I got sheeped. I was regretful because people were being lazy (see: Elie's and Refa's completely unexplained votes on Gregor and Objection's mildly explained vote on Gregor) and placing my vote on Gregor was another nail in the coffin for town discussion. Don't you think I would have tried to move those weak votes elsewhere if Gregor and I were scumbuddies? I had failed to clarify which of Gregor or Kay was my biggest scumread earlier so I could have just said Kay.

Wrt your first point, I did read past "don't know why you are" and just want to say that I don't understand why what you said at the end of that first point in #499 has any relevance to the hooker delaying his claim. What does the hooker have to gain by hiding for longer?

It's so that scum!me can't just claim that I was hooked or not hooked depending on what the hooker said, if the hooker hooked me and I was an idling scum claiming doc. It's an obscure possibility but I like the idea of squeezing what we can out of the setup.

[Zkirsche]

would be way better options if I were scum.

Better yes, but if scum played perfectly then we'd never catch them.

Yeah, but those reads were well-supported, except for my scumvibes on you of course. I couldn't change them drastically on a whim.

Why did Darros leapfrog 3-people? Regardless, even if they were well-supported, with all the changes to your opinion it makes it harder to get a grasp of what you truly think.

I pushed him as hard as I could

No you didn't, otherwise you'd have been more threatening, put him higher in your scumreads and even voted him like much of the town did. You're pushing Kay much harder than you did Darros and it's not liek she's overflowing with content either.

I was regretful because people were being lazy (see: Elie's and Refa's completely unexplained votes on Gregor and Objection's mildly explained vote on Gregor) and placing my vote on Gregor was another nail in the coffin for town discussion.

This is reasonable, but the way you said it at the time can be seen as casting doubt upon the wagon.

Don't you think I would have tried to move those weak votes elsewhere if Gregor and I were scumbuddies? I had failed to clarify which of Gregor or Kay was my biggest scumread earlier so I could have just said Kay.

You could have thought that defending Gregor would make yourself too attached to him and so through him under the bus, but tried keeping the possibility of a switch always present; supported by your eagerness to decide on a secondary lynch and to keep the idea of a secondary lynch fresh in everyone's mind.

It's so that scum!me can't just claim that I was hooked or not hooked depending on what the hooker said, if the hooker hooked me and I was an idling scum claiming doc. It's an obscure possibility but I like the idea of squeezing what we can out of the setup.

You can't do that anyway because you've already admitted that you aren't told if your action is successful or not. That's all you need to say.

[charlie_]

Was meant to put down a vote 24 hours ago or something but can't really work out who I want to lynch right now. Gonna reread really quickly.

[Strege]

Better yes, but if scum played perfectly then we'd never catch them.

I think it would be an especially dumb move for scum, but fine.

Why did Darros leapfrog 3-people? Regardless, even if they were well-supported, with all the changes to your opinion it makes it harder to get a grasp of what you truly think.

Refa refuted my arguments well, I rechecked Objection's case because I had been dumb about it, and the stuff I reread while looking into Refa and some stuff BBM mentioned were significant enough to push Gregor over Kay. I've tried to document my thought processes.

No you didn't, otherwise you'd have been more threatening, put him higher in your scumreads and even voted him like much of the town did. You're pushing Kay much harder than you did Darros and it's not liek she's overflowing with content either.

By "pushed him as hard as I could" for his content I mean I criticized his content very thoroughly. I didn't vote him because he wasn't my biggest scumread, but you can't say I was going easy on him. And calling someone "fairly scummy" is about as threatening as I ever want to be in a mafia game unless I'm bluffing abilities or something.

This is reasonable, but the way you said it at the time can be seen as casting doubt upon the wagon.

I suppose.

You could have thought that defending Gregor would make yourself too attached to him and so through him under the bus, but tried keeping the possibility of a switch always present; supported by your eagerness to decide on a secondary lynch and to keep the idea of a secondary lynch fresh in everyone's mind.

But despite Gregor's activity not being reliable I never took it into my own hands and said "hey guys maybe we should lynch Kay instead", or contrived a reason to want to lynch Objection like SB or yourself said you would be okay with.

You can't do that anyway because you've already admitted that you aren't told if your action is successful or not. That's all you need to say.

I assumed that I would probably be told but since I hadn't even gotten my D3 role PM yet I couldn't know if something happened to my action. (I'm not 100% sure if I'm understanding what you're saying here...)

[charlie_]

So I just realized something, reading back through. The scum Janitor is essentially useless at this point, if the doc/hooker gets killed then they can't fakeclaim it, and all other prs besides the bulletproof are dead, and they'd have to break it before they kill them so yeah...

The Investigative roles are all dead so Ninja/GF is pointless, and the redirector is flipped. So Scum really only have the 1 shot rolecop (maybe, or they hit a vanilla or something because i think they would've jankilled refa if they knew his role) and the reshuffler (also both limited right now) that are of actual use to them.

So the mafia is almost vanilla now, neat.

Back to actual rereading.

[charlie_]

Just noticed this thing about BBM. Posting now in case something explodes/I forget/Something else.

Also, ##Unvote, ##Vote: Strege

What is scummy about not laying down an RVS vote? Not voting anybody stands out a lot more than "lol vote: x". He also handwaves Bearclaw's response as "null" and chooses to keep the vote there despite finding Elie's responses an overreaction.

Oh, I didn't notice that.

Not going to drop an RVS vote?

You attacked Strege for this, which is kind of funny because you were questioning him for the same thing earlier, except with no vote to show your conviction (potentially for the sake of distancing yourself from the wagon)

[Zkirsche]

the stuff I reread while looking into Refa and some stuff BBM mentioned were significant enough to push Gregor over Kay.

This is ok but you never mentioned this.

I didn't vote him because he wasn't my biggest scumread, but you can't say I was going easy on him.

I can and will, because that's exactly what you were doing FMPOV. "Wasn't my biggest scumread" is an underexaggeration of what you said, which was:

Scummiest is between Refa, Kay, and Objection I think.

Which implies that Darros is on a completely different tier of scumminess.

But despite Gregor's activity not being reliable I never took it into my own hands and said "hey guys maybe we should lynch Kay instead",

Telling us to lynch Kay instead because Darros is inactive would be fruitless because Darros was more active than Kay. WRT Objection, at that point you had expressed many times that you were uncomfortable with his lynch so it would look weird if you suddenly went back on that.

In addition, it isn't out of the question that you would bus Darros considering the heavy pressure and the easy way of saying "oh hey I made this lynch happen" whenever the finger of suspicion falls upon you, which is what you did.

[Zkirsche]

Also I really like the idea of you and BBM being scum buddies. You're both kind of defensive about each other.

[Strege]

This is ok but you never mentioned this.

I mentioned the reread part in 355.

I can and will, because that's exactly what you were doing FMPOV. "Wasn't my biggest scumread" is an underexaggeration of what you said, which was:

Which implies that Darros is on a completely different tier of scumminess.

That was just me making a top three in my head to sort out my thoughts. I mention Gregor unfavourably in the middle of my Refa reread too. I guess you'd have to take my word on it, but "fairly scummy" is a lot for me as far as modifiers to the word "scummy" go.

Telling us to lynch Kay instead because Darros is inactive would be fruitless because Darros was more active than Kay. WRT Objection, at that point you had expressed many times that you were uncomfortable with his lynch so it would look weird if you suddenly went back on that.

That's not what I'm saying -- I'm saying that since I couldn't rely on Gregor being around to defend himself scum!me would have reason to move the wagon myself. I could have made something up about Objection anyway because at that point my waffling was either so overblown or accepted that I think I could have gotten away with a fair bit without drawing more attention.

In addition, it isn't out of the question that you would bus Darros considering the heavy pressure and the easy way of saying "oh hey I made this lynch happen" whenever the finger of suspicion falls upon you, which is what you did.

I made the first real case against Gregor and ignored all opportunities to wagonshift. That's not bussing, that's treason.

(And this is a joke because I think I've run out of defenses for this.)

[Strege]

Also, kirsche, between my case on Gregor and yours we got SB, Elie, Refa, and Objection voting him pretty quickly where very little suspicion was on him before. I would argue that that is a decent piece of evidence that my analysis didn't pull many punches if you don't get that from the language itself.

[BBM]

Kevin- I defend people I think are town. If there was a wagon on you, I'd probably defend you too.

wrt my questioning of not putting down an RVS vote; it was just that, a question. I was curious. It doesn't mean I found the act itself scummy.

I really don't like Elie's justification of the Kay suspicion. "One of my other gutreads was right so I'm just going to base something totally off that". Like what? His "reasoning" is a thinly veiled vote for an inactive for no reason other than their inactivity. He's also seemingly forgotten about me?

##Unvote, ##Vote: Elieson

I still think Kay is scummy but I think that there is a better chance of this lynch happening while the Kay slot isn't there.

[Strege]

The "I am not a crook" Unofficial Votecount

Strege (2): kirsche, Elie

Kay (1): Strege

Elie (3): Shin, Objection, BBM

Voteless Scum: Shinori, Kay, SB

In Need Of Subs: Kay

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

idk how long we have left!

Question from earlier:
@NNR: I have two questions: If a mafia member has a one-shot that they haven't used, is it revealed upon their death? If a mafia member has a one-shot that they have used, is it revealed upon their death?

[charlie_]

The BBM Case

-Contradicts himself on Strege voting Bear for not having an RVS vote, when BBM himself called Bear out on it first.

-Finds Strege scummy for having a large amount of scumreads, day 1.

-Accuses Strege of making a case on scorri based off of a low number of posts. Then starts pushing for Kay the one-post-wonder's lynch.

-D2 voteparks on Kay despite her not being around to do anything about it. Carried over to today when she's subbing out (please someone sub in :/)

##Vote: BBM

not sure either way if strege is scum honestly, and i don't think eli is scumi. it's is kind of a meta thing but i remember in awakening he fakecrumbed as town in that game, so i believe his bp crumbing doc stuff too. there was something else but i forget.

[Zkirsche]

While nothing you said there is unreasonable, Strege, I'd much rather see you lynched than Kay simply because there is a potentially scum-minded aspect to a lot that you did.

Oh hey an Elie wagon. Guess that's worth a reread.

[BBM]

The BBM Case

-Contradicts himself on Strege voting Bear for not having an RVS vote, when BBM himself called Bear out on it first.

-Finds Strege scummy for having a large amount of scumreads, day 1.

-Accuses Strege of making a case on scorri based off of a low number of posts. Then starts pushing for Kay the one-post-wonder's lynch.

-D2 voteparks on Kay despite her not being around to do anything about it. Carried over to today when she's subbing out (please someone sub in :/)

##Vote: BBM

not sure either way if strege is scum honestly, and i don't think eli is scumi. it's is kind of a meta thing but i remember in awakening he fakecrumbed as town in that game, so i believe his bp crumbing doc stuff too. there was something else but i forget.

a) I didn't call Bear out on it. I asked Bear. There's a difference.

b) Okay.

c) You're misunderstanding what I said there. I didn't say that Strege was scummy ONLY for finding Scorri scummy off two posts. I said that it was hypocritical for Strege to criticize Scorri for making a case on Terra's two posts when Scorri also had two posts. I misinterpreted Strege there though, as I said in my next post, because what he was actually saying was just that he found a lot of scummy stuff in Scorri's two posts.

d) Kay was my only real scumread for the first half of D2, and once I reread Darros and started finding him scummy, he was in the vote range where I didn't want to put him too close to hammer too early.

Elie's fakecrumbing really doesn't mean much?

[BBM]

Kirsche, do you think I'm scummy? The last thing you'd said about me before #510 indicates that you didn't really find me scummy (agreeing with something I said). So why a tie to us being possible scumbuddies?

[Strege]

Since I promised a revised list:

Kay > Shinori > Objection

I don't think Elie's interactions with Darros look bad for him. The RVS vote -> early attention -> unexplained mid-wagon vote line of play gives him a weird amount of distance after Darros's flip, but the cost for that potential benefit is drawing a lot of attention to Darros so I'm more inclined to think that it's chance rather than contrivance. The rest of his content looks coasty in a really not-subtle way that I don't peg as scum. I don't know what the heck to think of BBM -- his behaviour following my expressed suspicions doesn't look scummy, and he defused some of what I had against him. I'll reread that later since I was evidently in a salty mood when I did the first time (for which I apologize).

[NekoRex]

The "I swear I'm not being lazy about modding" Votecount

Strege (2): kirsche, Elie

Kay (1): Strege

Elie (3): Shin, Objection, BBM

Voteless Scum: Shinori, Kay, SB

In Need Of Subs: Kay

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

1.5 Days Remaining!

Question from earlier:
@NNR: I have two questions: If a mafia member has a one-shot that they haven't used, is it revealed upon their death? If a mafia member has a one-shot that they have used, is it revealed upon their death?

No, they'll flip as either the Godfather, Redirector, or JOAT. I'm not going to make it obvious which one-shots were used.

The JOAT is already dead, which leaves the Redirector and the Godfather.

Edited August 17, 2013 by NekoRex

[BBM]

wait what

Darros's flip says that he was the Redirector, not the JoaT (although the OP says JoaT). Which is it?

[Shin]

BBM, any idea why you've suddenly jumped over to Camp Elieson? It seems a little reactionary. You harp on him for voting Kay for inactivity, yet you claim she's scummy on multiple occasions based on one post and say that you stick with your reasons because she hasn't posted anything else. You also say it's bad for Strege to find Scorri scummy after two posts, whilst you're on about Kay after one.

I'm waiting for Kay's sub to appear, so far she's a null tell, but you seem pretty keen on lynching what's essentially an empty slot. Funny, no?

[The Objection!]

Is Shinori and Kay('s sub) posting anytime soon? Also I don't see a reason for last hooker to delay claiming anymore.

Time to comment on a few things:

- I don't quite like Elieson's response to the Kay part where most of the reason is gutread(?). I suppose the Strege part is reasonable though...

- Still not sure of what to think about Strege, I'll give it some more thought.

Finding BBM slightly scummy for:

- Voting an effectively empty player slot (Kay) over and over again when it's apparent that she's not coming back.

- A little contribution from this:

Kirsche- I don't think there's scum intent in engineering a plan that could lead to a third of the game getting cleared, even if it cost the town most of their roles.

While I don't particularly agree or disagree with the plan itself, I don't think that coming up with it would clear someone. While the plan could clear a few people, it could be a waste of a few roles that are actually useful for town.

Yeah, on that note I think ##Unvote ##Vote:BBM is in order. Still waiting for an explanation from Elieson's side though...

[Strege]

Gregor's flip was changed to JoaT and we don't know if he used a one-shot. SB is still our only clear, anyway.

For what it's worth I think Elie's vote on me is silly. There is scum intent to creating a counterwagon for your afk buddy so that he can come in and save himself, but Gregor was so far down that hole it would be way more practical to bus him, especially given my previous position on him. Him claiming unused tracker would catch up to him later and make me look really bad for setting up the idea that he could. On the other hand, the town intent for building that counterwagon is promoting discussion and facilitating a legit unused tracker claim (and a possibly even more edge case "extremely" good defense, in my own words). Look at the end of D2 -- me asking Elie about people long after it was possible to wagonshift, me checking Prims's and Elie's ISO, me asking SB to explain his read on BBM (who wasn't a lynch candidate). What part of that is inconsistent with this town intent?

[Strege]

Putting myself in BBM's head for the re-reread:
--Says Objection wagon is shallow but doesn't defend him or directly criticize an argument. Asks Darros his opinion; Darros reaffirms (or close to it) BBM's feelings about the wagon. If BBM is scum that would mean they were trying to make the wagon look sheepy and distance, but there's no reason to team up to do so, and scum!BBM meta supports that (at least that that's not what he was setting up for). It makes sense that Darros blandly supporting BBM's opinion might divert BBM's attention elsewhere, and I feel like that's more likely.
--This could explain why BBM was late on the Darros wagon and had to reread his content. The things he takes issue with on the reread are subtler points, so it makes sense that they wouldn't have popped out to him earlier.

--I feel like there's some tonal dissonance between BBM's analysis of Darros and putting him in the "scum" category two posts later. The analysis brings some new points to the table (I'm pretty sure) but seems delicately presented.
--The thing about sorta tunneling me making me look town on his flip stands for me. His behaviour afterwards reads more as busy!BBM being conversational and talking about current topics than buddying to me.
--Tone is fine, I guess. I don't know how reliable my read of BBM's tone is, particularly when RL is making his style change, but he's not being excessively accusatory or opportunisitc.

I don't want to support a lynch on either Elie or BBM. I realized that my list of scumreads is mostly just a list of players with lower activity, which confirms my thought that this experiment with a spammier style is making it more difficult for me to drill into a case, but it's really the best I can come up with. My one well-supported scumread on an active player after D1 was on Refa, so if you think I killed him and left myself with nothing then I think you don't realize how lazy I am.

We do actually need to consolidate soon-ish, because we have less than 24 hours and I don't know how much people are going to be online.