Inception Mafia

[Grace]

Well, I'm town and if people think I'm scum and they're town then they're dumb. 8)

this is a specific example. there are probably more.

yeah, fite me scorri

[Shinori]

Content post stuff. Not gonna bother trying to follow the idea I had previously but I'll keep it there in my head just in case.

Yesterday I didn't want to lynch Prims or Eury, I thought they were town which kinda left me at PoE to lynch Objection since no one wanted to lynch Rein. That's straight up honestly the truth cause there's not much else to it. I didn't like his first few posts also which solidified my vote on him > Eury or Prims. That should answer why I voted Objection.

I honestly have not fully read and got caught up but I still want to lynch Rein. His like one post this day phase wasn't good. And honestly if you look at it he only talked about the two people who had votes on him the longest last day phase which strikes me as odd. Like seriously he only commented on me and Kirsche. >_> This should like hurry up and get lynched.

Would totally lynch SB also, don't like his votes and reasonings. Thought his comments on Kirsche were meh and I don't really like them.

Would probably be willing to ham on Scorri as well. Her vote swap to Eurykins last day phase seemed too easy imo. Frankly I didn't like most of her day 1 and her day 2 hasn't consisted of much either. Would be fine with lynching any of these three.

##Vote: Scorri

For now let's go with this!

[Shinori]

Most of my other reads are town or null reads.

[Strege]

Thank you for your patience; I'm back and working to catch up. I lost a post here too so if I miss something obvious please let me know.

I didn't CC Objection at first because it would open me up to blocking and redirection, and would reveal me earlier than necessary as confirmed town (which I fully expected to be since I've never encountered two vigs outside of the heavily-powered Touhou NOCfia, iirc). Objection didn't seem to have any particularly incriminating interactions either, so I decided to stay quiet and let him get lynched.

When I checked my phone pretty close to deadline it didn't seem like an Objection lynch was possible, and tried to choose between CCing him and lynching Eurykins. I figured that the latter protected my shot from blocking and redirection and protected me from being shot early, and I thought Eurykins had a decent chance of flipping scum, so I went for it, planning to kill Objection at night. The reason I mentioned Objection in my near-deadline post at all is that I was paranoid that scum would notice someone not commenting on his claim.

I think that covers things. Onward to reads, anyway.

eh my role ain't very useful aside from not burning cop scans on me

mostly just padding town numbers IMO

It could actually be used to confirm claims later on, depending on how much we collectively direct your targeting. For example, someone else claims their target for every night and one matches up with your targets, so they should have your PM. You can then ask them for your character name, or the eighteenth letter of your role PM or whatever, and possibly catch them in a lie. This would work a lot better if you kept your targets a secret, but I don't know if anyone else has an idea of how to make use of this role which would require collectively-decided targeting.

Rein: In post 479, finding only cases against yourself to criticize when you go ISO-fishing for reads pings me a bunch, even when it looks like you only had time to check out two ISOs. Upon my ISO reading: The amount of mixing scumreads with self-defence I see worries me.

Also, (and I will note this is a smaller part of my suspicion despite its complexity) Rein's adamant...ness to lynch Objection over his top scumread Eurykins gives me the heebie jeebies. Like, I recognize that you may have just been worried about not getting a lynch anywhere, but you showed up as soon as people start shifting off of the claimed vig and your tone feels like... bleh, adjectives are failing me tonight. The way you reiterated the difficulty of lynching Eurykins rubs me the wrong way. I'll try to go into more detail here as well as on the rest of your content tomorrow morning.

Kay: The Shinori vote in post 512 seems super easy, and though I can sympathize with the all-my-scumreads-are-dead thing I will point out that the Grass and Poly comments are particularly vague. In terms of D1 content I see the focus on Prims to the exclusion of everyone else as leaning scummy.

Shinori is looking really bad. He's had a lot of "oh, lol, i'll post more later" and he says things like "Oh the eury lynch was bad" but doesn't actually go into detail as to why it was bad. Why was it bad? And if you think there was scum on it, who and why? It's like you're making a stand with that statement but don't provide any backing for it and then also immediately soften the blow by saying "Oh but these other two would have been bad too." What would have made them bad lynches? Just because they would have hit town? That in and of itself doesn't make a lynch bad. If there's solid reasoning behind a lynch that hits a townie, it's unfortunate, but it means the townie was acting scummy and isn't a "bad" lynch per say. Would have my vote here if not for policy.

scorri: I feel like you're spending a lot of text here for no real reason. Shinori isn't posting, so he's obviously not doing wagon analysis, and so I feel like this post could be boiled down to "post some content" or "stop lurking". Futhermore, Shinori had some content on D1 that you've never discussed; what do you think about it? I'm not a fan of Shinori being your top scumread based on this argument alone -- it feels padded and easy right now.

Poly's ISO is still broken and his name change confused the heck out of me due to the otherwise non-identifying nature of the email updates I've been reading to keep track of the thread. I'll review here later since I remember him being scummy (and also claiming if I'm not mistaken?).

That's what stood out to me but I should actually have time tomorrow morning to add more, so stay tuned! As for a vote, I feel most confident in this right now:

##Vote: Rein

/ Strege ; Creature -- Eye ; Strege must post each 24 hours if able. ; Strege can't be blocked by walls. /

[scorri]

Because I did crap all D1. I'm not proud of it, but it's true. Most of my posts D1 were focused on the things that happened right before I posted because of personal crap that happened that made it really hard for me to do anything, much less get a coherent mafia post up. I was basically gone for all of the Prims stuff and yeah. Had I been paying attention, I probably would have voted Prims for that. But I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have been and so I didn't. I'm not exactly happy with my D1, but it happened, it was bad, but it was personal stuff that honestly made me want to sub but I didn't because there were no subs. Most of my thoughts on D1 have come from rereading. And like... I never said that your change in read on Via couldn't have come from rereading. I just noticed a disjoint in thoughts and wanted an explanation for it.

As for you Shinori, you're really one to talk about not doing much. First off, why was my Eury vote easy? Because I just went with what everyone else was doing? I was trying to get a lynch. Because any lynch is better than no lynch because it gives us information to work with. Why was my vote so much worse than anyone elses? As for not doing anything today, I would point you to your day today which up until the post I'm referring to was "i can't post cause i'm waiting on an answer" "don't have anything but that lynch was stupid" "i'll catch up later" So pot, please meet kettle.

Strege: I'll be the first to admit that I'm not as caught up on the game as I should be. I've fallen massively behind and while I've reread, most of what stands out to me is stuff that's happened today. I'm trying to figure stuff out, but it's slow going. As for "padding" my posts, that's just how I post. I tend to have longer posts when I actually write up reads, this isn't the first time that people have noticed this.

[Paperblade]

scorri has requested a sub. Boron subs in for scorri.

[Percivalé]

##Unvote

##Vote: Shinori

~_~

[Shinori]

ALL THE LOGICS FROM QUOTE!

[Percivalé]

wait nvm I don't want that

##Unvote

##Vote: Boronscorri

I'm bad at reading.

I don't care what the reason was, that votepark was stupid

[Kay]

Not that I suppose it really matters since she's subbing, but scorri is kind of a hypocrite herself for calling me a hypocrite for voting for Shinori partly for being inactive when I was inactive too, since she hasn't been around a lot either.

Though on the other hand I don't think an Undercover Cop would be permitted to openly say "yeah I don't give a fuck anymore" from the rest of the team. Third-party maybe?

What's the rest of the team supposed to do about it? Say "Hey you, no ragelurking" and whine in the mafia QT? Threaten to bus someone who doesn't want to play anyway? That's like saying townies wouldn't be permitted to lurk.

Would totally lynch SB also, don't like his votes and reasonings. Thought his comments on Kirsche were meh and I don't really like them

What about SB's "votes and reasonings" in particular do you not like, and why?

I'm sorry, I don't try for passive-aggressive. Actually, I was going for more "aggressive-aggressive." (See: number of instances of uses of "BS"/"bullshit"/"crap".) Can you point out instances of this passive aggression that bothers you, or do you actually just mean aggression?

True, it was probably an inaccurate description, sorry. I just don't really like "I'm gonna say something critical about this person in a way that just barely doesn't name them" remarks.

Things That Piss Me Off, Partial List

-People who call me scummy without explaining why and/or for things that are clearly BS

-People who ATE

-People who say "you're dumb if you think I'm scum" without any further explanation

Note that all of these things are also scummy. Yes, you can summarize my Prims case as "he's been a JERK", but I think he's been doing it in a scummy way. The only thing he's criticized me for specifically is a weak Strege case, which is BS because D1 and also I was trying to absorb 10 pages at once.

These statements aren't fantastic either,

So, you don't believe me when I say that I'm voting him for a fabricated case? If you think I'm lying, please say so.

I probably couldn't have looked fishy for most of the game given that I didn't post for like the first 48 hours basically, but OK. Anyway your case is crap.

Anyway, however it's most accurately described, I think you're being a jerk in a scummy way. It feels kinda like bullying people into not saying anything against you.

Regarding scorri's point about me not being clear on how Shinori was being touchy:

Cause I don't like it because it's not useful for town like at all.

I'm pretty sure I stated that.

AND OH.

I didn't know I was supposed to go all gung-ho on a guy that I'm on the fence about. Obviously if I'm not voting him it means I think there is logical possibility to him being town. So in other words you are just voting me for NOT voting someone that I think could be town.

That's good logic.

By the way that's sarcasm.

Now let's look at the facts: I don't like the tailor claim however I have reasonable doubt that makes me think he's town. Yet it's obviously bad that I'm not voting this person which confuses me because that leads to poor logical decisions in the future. If we are voting people because they aren't voting people they think could be town there would be a lot more poor votes going out. Now if you were voting me because I wasn't voting someone who I thought was scum it's reasonable. However you're not.

This being said even at the risk of people going "AMG OMGUS" I would like to raise my glass to you Strege and let's get this game really rolling.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Strege

That's a pretty angry response to someone questioning why he wasn't voting a guy when he was just talking about how scummy their claim was. Reads like defensive panicky scum to me.

[spoiler=not particularly gameplay-relevant whining]I don't like how I'm acting this game, either. I don't wanna factor emotion into mafia because a lot of times people are just emotional. But way too much of this game is emotion right now, whether it's people being obnoxious or people being upset or people arguing about whether it's scummy to be obnoxious or upset, and I don't feel like I can ignore that and play properly, and I feel like a total jerk not ignoring it. I don't know what to do about it but the fact is that playing mafia is something I do for fun, and if this keeps being a problem I will probably request a sub/go (more) inactive/not argue against being lynched/etc. Also anyone should please let me know if they feel like I'm being a jerk to them or someone else, because I'm really concerned about it atm.

[Sunwoo]

Can't be bothered to check whether scorri unvoted or not, so ##Unvote

Also, despite saying that I would be available for mafia after today, I haven't received feedback on my thesis yet and will hopefully be receiving feedback later in the week ... which means that I actually won't be as available as planned. School > mafia anyway.

Looking back at D1, I'm annoyed about Eury lynch and Prims wagon. I don't even understand why Eury had even been lynched in the first place, and Prims wagon felt opportunistic. Going to dissect everyone who voted Prims in a sec because otherwise this post will be a big wall of text. I feel that there may be scum on that last minute Eury wagon and that scum may have been pushing Prims opportunistically.

Grassbridger feels very emotional and reactive. It seems to me like his biggest suspicions are on people who suspect him and after post #276 I can't tell what he thinks about people who are not Prims (who is dead), Refa, and Parrhesia. I think he's being way too defensive and it's scummy, and I either don't understand the basis of his cases or don't think there's merit to them.

I think Euklyd claiming mayor was null, but I strongly disagree with the basis of his Prims vote and actually think that his vote was overblowing the issue. Also, I don't like how in post #398 he asked if there were enough people to lynch Eury but said that he preferred Objection. While in retrospect Objection was also town, if both Eury and Objection were viable for the D1 lynch wouldn't you be pushing the one you were actually suspicious of a bit harder? Don't really know what to think of the Usurper thing.

Feeling better about Rein after reading his posts a second time, although I would like a more recent post by him and whether he has any other suspicions besides Shinori.

Shinori's been promising content after content and making a lot of "filler" posts before actually getting up a content post. Don't agree with the basis of his Rein vote. I find it pretty bad that he voted Rein for continuing to vote Manix because "surely someone else should've caught your attention by now". I feel that Shinori has a lot of filler, isn't really SAYING much, and as if he's not exactly pushing the people he suspects.

##Vote: Shinori

kirsche has like five posts and has been rather inactive on D1 and I really have no idea what to think of him right now. I expect that wall tomorrow and your current suspicions.

While I agree with a lot of what j00 is saying, what exactly is making Quote worse than your other scumreads (Shinori and Refa) in your eyes because it kind of feels like you're parking your vote.

Quote and Manix, please stop answering for each other. Please stop defending each other so hard and jumping down the throats of whoever dares to attack the other. Unless your role is ~town mason~ I find this unpleasant and unfun to deal with.

[Sunwoo]

My eyes are starting to glaze over, so I'll get up more stuff later.

[Percivalé]

Quote and Manix, please stop answering for each other. Please stop defending each other so hard and jumping down the throats of whoever dares to attack the other. Unless your role is ~town mason~ I find this unpleasant and unfun to deal with.

i dont even remember the last time i defended manix and i don't know how hard he's defending me/if he is right now because i haven't really been reading the thread...............idk why people keep bringing this up???

[Percivalé]

like are people just reading the beginning of the thread and assuming we've been doing that the entire game because i don't even know i don't get it.

also something shinori crumbed about his role didn't seem scum by nature so i'm not interested in voting him atm and that's why i switched so quickly. bc im gay

[Sunwoo]

i dont even remember the last time i defended manix and i don't know how hard he's defending me/if he is right now because i haven't really been reading the thread...............idk why people keep bringing this up???

To be fair, I think in recent posts it's been on Manix's end more than your end. I'll have to look through SB's ISO again because I reread the entire thread after I was subbed in and SB just didn't leave as big of an initial impression, but I don't understand Manix's accusations of SB tunneling you. Nor do I understand why SB's tunneling is worse than, say, Grass's tunneling for an example.

[Percivalé]

& can people stop yelling at me because like even if I'm being emotional/annoying about it yelling at me isn't going to make it better it's just going to make it worse and the opposite of calm

[Percivalé]

I don't understand Manix's accusations of SB tunneling you. Nor do I understand why SB's tunneling is worse than, say, Grass's tunneling for an example.

It might be because SB has left less of an impression on the game than Grass has but idk. SB is a huge nullread for me tho. als whoops I guess this counts as me speaking for manix but it's not intended to be

like at first I was weird about SB's subtle Prims defense but then Prims flipped town and that kinda screwed up my read.

Honestly the more I think about it the more I think a Grass lynch might be a good idea too but I don't have like a real hard substance case for that yet.

[Percivalé]

erm, I'm aware that scum can buddy up to townies too and often do that for towncred but it doesn't feel that way with SB to me.

[Grace]

Nor do I understand why SB's tunneling is worse than, say, Grass's tunneling for an example.

1) SB has very few suspects all game. can be interpreted as non-effort toward attempting to scumhunt

2) grass hasn't been on someone's case since 24 hours into D1. SB has, and continues going there and doesn't attempt to look too deeply into other players. same conclusion as point 1.

[Grace]

also in regards to the defending point: it turned more into shooting down a really bad vote (player irrelevant). while going through grass's iso just then to confirm some facts, I did find this:

##Vote: Prims semi-policy vote due to ATE and condescending BS. Will decide before I sleep tonight (next 2-3 hours) if it's a real vote or not.

so there was precedent. i note however that scorri had only her consolidation vote post after this one, but scorri was at least kind of reading the thread so.

[Grace]

i say that scorri was reading the thread because she acknowledged the janvig claim in said consolidation vote post. so.

[Grace]

and one more post just while i'm at it. refa did that empty unvoting thing that he did D1 again. ughhhhhhhh that's not helping my feelings on him at all

[Sunwoo]

1) SB has very few suspects all game. can be interpreted as non-effort toward attempting to scumhunt

2) grass hasn't been on someone's case since 24 hours into D1. SB has, and continues going there and doesn't attempt to look too deeply into other players. same conclusion as point 1.

1) From my memory, I'm pretty sure SB isn't the only one guilty of this. I feel that quite a bit of people in this game have had very few suspects all game, such as Shinori, kirsche, Furetchen, and Rein (and I'm still reading Rein as town rather than scum at this point). Furet, I can understand but again why are these other people worse than SB?

2) I'll have to look at SB again to see the merits to your vote on him (and I'm aware you aren't voting him anymore), but I don't understand why SB is more guilty of this than anyone else. I pulled up Grass as the first example off the top of my head, but I am also referring to other players and not only him, and can't help but feel that you are looking at this with some bias.

I can't really speak for scorri or her actions because I'm not her, and I don't agree with her policy vote either. It's not really my place to talk about anything else relating to what I know of her state of mind, so I won't. Grass's vote on Prims that you quoted, however, is bad. "Policy votes" are bad as it's already been explained, and posting "condescending BS" isn't a scum tell in itself.

[Percivalé]

policy votes are bad because it's easy to excuse mislynches and shit with "lol well it's not my fault it's just my policy vote" & they're easy to pass off as genuine scumreads when they're really not.

##Unvote

##Vote: Refa

whatever back to this. if we end up lynching grass I don't mind though.

[euklyd]

Euklyd, some questions:

1. Are you saying you're Mafia with a wincon that's more complicated than eliminating the undercover cops?

2. Are you saying that your role PM modconfirms Usurper to you as Mafia (not scum)?

I'm asking because it's strange for different people with the same alignment to have different wincons. Usurper sounds more like ITP to me, although flavor-wise I see why it'd be Mafia.

1. Yes. My wincon is literally that the I win when both the Undercover Cops are eliminated and the Usurper loses. I don't know what the Usurper's wincon is, so I don't really know my entire wincon.

2. Yes. The Usurper is confirmed to be, specifically, of my own faction, which is Russian Mafia (not scum).

I don't like the arbitrary way scorri made the AtE policy vote (or policy votes at all, actually). Like, that's a very selective policy, and I don't like that it was implemented only after "oh I'll get some content down after an in-depth reread" and not on D1 (since there was definitely some "being around" D1).

Even without Boron subbing in for scorri I feel like this is too weak for a vote, so IDK.

Oh okay Boron posted. Let's see. I'm not really seeing the Eury thing as a scum counterwagon, since that'd be rather high-risk, low-reward. Like, there's no reason to form a last-minute counterwagon if the current leading wagon is also town; I don't see the scum intent.

Fuck it. I really need to go to bed; I've been on the edge of getting sick and staying up late later to continue failing at working on a case won't help me. I will try to be around in the morning (or afternoon; whenever I wake up) to actually do things.