Inception Mafia

[Prims]

Well, I'm town and if people think I'm scum and they're town then they're dumb. 8)

You know who you are

go town !!

[Grassbridger]

Actually, at the time I said I would switch if necessary, it was 3 hours until phase end and Objection was at L-2. And please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that I wasn't interested in an Objection lynch. The problem is that Objection so often has mediocre or poor content on D1 that D1 wagons against him are usually easy. I didn't have a townread on Objection, I just thought that there wouldn't be many good associative reads off his wagon (in addition to not feeling strongly about any read on him).

Also, Prims gave good arguments against my Strege case, and I knew that my Prims case was tied up in emotion, so I wasn't really too invested in the wagons. I thought Prims was the best lynch out of the three, but getting any lynch at all was more important.

-And your vote on me is pretty bad because 1) all you're complaining about is that I'm padding out my case but nothing actually scummy and 2) contradicts this view from you ("You call my read on Prims bad for essentially not liking his points on me, but that's why Strege was a stronger read: my Prims read was all wrapped up in personal BS and I knew that."). How is this read not any more wrapped up in personal BS?

I have no idea what you're asking here. Padding out your case is scummy, and I don't know what you're saying about my two reads. I had reads on Strege and Prims. With Strege, it was strictly as a result of content that I found scummy. With Prims, it was as a result of content that I found scummy and incited a strong emotional response in me. Recognizing that emotional response caused me to doubt my own read, even though it was part of what made me think it was scummy. And I'm not voting for you because of your vote; I'm voting for you because your vote is backed by a case that feels fabricated, in addition to accusations made against you by two NK'd townies during the previous day.

Kirsche is a nonentity and I have reason to believe he's not doing very well on keeping up-to-date on the thread. Inactivity isn't scummy by itself, even for a player who usually contributes more, so I feel pretty null on him right now.

Other scumreads: with a grand total of four lines of content between Shinori and Parrhesia (all Shinori) on D2, I see no reason to alter my slight scumreads on them from D1. I have quite a few townreads right now but not many big scumreads.

[Parrhesia]

so yeah I'm not suspended anymore

Grassbridger ... I'm not too impressed by his first content post, which seems a lot to be jumping on early posts without much information, and then saying I'm slightly scummy for clarifying my actions. Apparently justifying my actions, which people were voting me for, 'reads like padding'. Strege is allegedly the most likely to be scum at that stage for ... reasons I can't actually figure out, something about 'likely scum candidates' versus 'scum candidates'. It's a weak and ill-justified vote, if one he doesn't initially remember to post.

Prims calls him out on the weak vote, stating (possibly accurately) that it was mostly to avoid the bandwagon. Grass responds by voting Prims instead, which is allegedly policy because he admitted he felt he wasn't playing well. This is relayed in acronym form.

Fuck.

Moving onto his next post, not much to say. He favours sticking on Prims rather than moving to Objection (this being pre-claim). Euklyd and Kay are the other people voting Prims by this point... I might have a look through their posts later, as well.

Yes, you can summarize my Prims case as "he's been a JERK"

Grassbridger then admits something not particularly flattering. This was immediately after Objection's claim, and Grass states he doesn't feel 'good' about it at all. He doesn't shift votes, however, instead waiting on Euklyd.

His most recent posts are like right above this one, where he doesn't appear to know that I was banned yesterday and sleeping/working today until now. Inactivity appears suddenly to be a good lynch. This would continue the trend of 'weak reads nobody else is acting on', incidentally. Current vote is Refa, which largely appears to be for voting him. Even I could see past that two days ago.

He's basically looked pretty fishy for most of the game, in my view at least. Until there's a better candidate, I'd be happy to ##Vote: Grassbridger.

This post was originally going to be about Kirsche but there's been... seriously nothing in any of those posts to talk about.

[riariadne]

hi

I'm working on a few more ISOs and some rereading (i already pointed this out at paperblade but poly's name in the OP needs updating), this will probably be my only big post for the night. I'll be pretty active tomorrow though

one of the ones I have gotten through is kirsche, which isn't hard (though to be fair he mentioned being gone). i already mentioned a while back briefly that I wanted kirsche to elaborate on his earlier case on me even though he was apparently feeling better about me later on. but from what he does have right now I'm not a fan. I'd like to see what he has to say on that. his voteswitch is also questionable because effort =/= autotown

##Vote: Shinori

I asked you to go more in-depth about your voting reason here. "surely someone else had to have caught your attention by now" is bullshit and then you go a bit more in depth, which i already addressed and is a super shaky reasoning, yet despite this you never talked about my response to it and still mentioned you wanted to lynch me towards the end of D1 on nothing but keeping my vote on Manix who I thought was the scummiest player at the time

uh that's all for now i think

[Grassbridger]

so yeah I'm not suspended anymore

Grassbridger ... I'm not too impressed by his first content post, which seems a lot to be jumping on early posts without much information, and then saying I'm slightly scummy for clarifying my actions. Apparently justifying my actions, which people were voting me for, 'reads like padding'.

Yup. Posting a wall of quotes with marginal new material, and that material is a rehash of things that have already happened... That's not good. I guess on reread I see how it's clarifying your actions, but you weren't really getting asked about them, so I don't really see why you felt the need to clarify. And the "people" who were voting you for those actions was one person--Objection--who was getting voted by others for his hypocrisy and terrible attack against you. I stand by my judgment of "this post is made to look like more contribution than it is".

Strege is allegedly the most likely to be scum at that stage for ... reasons I can't actually figure out, something about 'likely scum candidates' versus 'scum candidates'. It's a weak and ill-justified vote, if one he doesn't initially remember to post.

The forgetting-to-post thing is irrelevant unless you read scum intent in it, which would be silly. The point I was making about Strege is that he 1. said an argument was going nowhere and then 2. continued it by saying something that didn't even make sense (which was differentiating between "scum candidate" and "likely scum candidate"). Doing those things in the same breath doesn't look good. It looks like intentionally continuing a dead argument. That, on its own, looks scummy. I dropped my scumread on Strege because Prims pointed out his larger body of town posts.

Prims calls him out on the weak vote, stating (possibly accurately) that it was mostly to avoid the bandwagon. Grass responds by voting Prims instead, which is allegedly policy because he admitted he felt he wasn't playing well. This is relayed in acronym form.

[image removed because why the fuck]

"I'm sorry I'm being so useless" is ATE. Saying "I don't think I'm playing well; I don't trust any of my reads" is admitting you're not playing well. See the difference? And the policy bit was for "you're dumb if you're town and you think I'm scum", which is insulting no matter what way you look at it.

Moving onto his next post, not much to say. He favours sticking on Prims rather than moving to Objection (this being pre-claim). Euklyd and Kay are the other people voting Prims by this point... I might have a look through their posts later, as well.

Why, are you starting a witch-hunt? This line is actually pretty disturbing. At the end of D1, literally everyone in the game except you and Eurykins (who flipped town) was voting for a now-flipped townie, so the idea that voting for Prims is somehow scummier than voting for Eury or Objection is just bad.

Grassbridger then admits something not particularly flattering. This was immediately after Objection's claim, and Grass states he doesn't feel 'good' about it at all. He doesn't shift votes, however, instead waiting on Euklyd.

Yep. Trying to let a claimed hidden doublevoter prove their role, just like had been agreed upon by most of the town for like the entire day phase. What's your point here? And re: my Prims case: you deliberately quoted me out of context. How you quoted: "Yes, you can summarize my Prims case as "he's been a JERK"". The full sentence: "Yes, you can summarize my Prims case as "he's been a JERK", but I think he's been doing it in a scummy way." That's a pretty big misrep.

His most recent posts are like right above this one, where he doesn't appear to know that I was banned yesterday

Nope. Didn't know that. Don't know why I would have. It's not like there was a mod announcement or anything, and how else would I know?

and sleeping/working today until now.

So what?

Inactivity appears suddenly to be a good lynch. This would continue the trend of 'weak reads nobody else is acting on', incidentally.

Oh, is this what your previous two sentences are about? No, I didn't know you were banned yesterday, but it doesn't matter. I didn't include you in that above scumreads list for inactivity. I included you because your inactivity meant that nothing had changed since D1, when you were a scumread. Your inactivity was only relevant insofar as it meant you hadn't done anything at all to change my mind, since you hadn't done anything at all.

Current vote is Refa, which largely appears to be for voting him. Even I could see past that two days ago.

So, you don't believe me when I say that I'm voting him for a fabricated case? If you think I'm lying, please say so.

He's basically looked pretty fishy for most of the game, in my view at least. Until there's a better candidate, I'd be happy to ##Vote: Grassbridger.

This post was originally going to be about Kirsche but there's been... seriously nothing in any of those posts to talk about.

I probably couldn't have looked fishy for most of the game given that I didn't post for like the first 48 hours basically, but OK. Anyway your case is crap.

[Strege]

Notes:
-My activity is going to take a general dip. Particularly for the next 24 hours, directly after which you may expect couple of walls.
-I'm going to stick with the usual meanings of "town", "mafia", and "scum" in this game for consistency, though it's becoming clear that the subversion in this setup is pretty important. Careful with the setupspec everyone.

I shot Objection. Hopefully saying so isn't another big mistake. I may or may not have more to my role.

I'll try to post more in the morning. I'm afraid I haven't had time to catch up on D1 interactions post-flips.

[Parrhesia]

Yup. Posting a wall of quotes with marginal new material, and that material is a rehash of things that have already happened... That's not good. I guess on reread I see how it's clarifying your actions, but you weren't really getting asked about them, so I don't really see why you felt the need to clarify. And the "people" who were voting you for those actions was one person--Objection--who was getting voted by others for his hypocrisy and terrible attack against you. I stand by my judgment of "this post is made to look like more contribution than it is".

It was meant to look like a justification of my actions - I wasn't being directly asked 'why did you make these actions', but people had highlighted them as faintly reeking of scum out of context. You can overthink it all you like, mate, that's not my problem.

The forgetting-to-post thing is irrelevant unless you read scum intent in it, which would be silly.

I apologise and will henceforth post everything in strict, stripped-out essay format.

The point I was making about Strege is that he 1. said an argument was going nowhere and then 2. continued it by saying something that didn't even make sense (which was differentiating between "scum candidate" and "likely scum candidate"). Doing those things in the same breath doesn't look good. It looks like intentionally continuing a dead argument. That, on its own, looks scummy. I dropped my scumread on Strege because Prims pointed out his larger body of town posts.

It was a weak point, and I stand by that.

"I'm sorry I'm being so useless" is ATE. Saying "I don't think I'm playing well; I don't trust any of my reads" is admitting you're not playing well. See the difference? And the policy bit was for "you're dumb if you're town and you think I'm scum", which is insulting no matter what way you look at it.

Do you know what a glossary is? What the fuck is an ATE? Is an ATE specifically that statement or something to that effect? Why is it a negative?

That's insulting (even if you took it unnecessarily harshly), but that's hardly policy lynch material. I mean, really, come on.

Why, are you starting a witch-hunt? This line is actually pretty disturbing. At the end of D1, literally everyone in the game except you and Eurykins (who flipped town) was voting for a now-flipped townie, so the idea that voting for Prims is somehow scummier than voting for Eury or Objection is just bad.

Not starting a witch-hunt is exactly why I was under suspicion D1. I was only ever under one vote at a time, sure, but most people pointed it out. So, lol? And yeah, that's because frankly Objection looked a pretty safe bet before his claim. I'm not going to hide the fact I would've voted him as well before the claim, were I able.

Yep. Trying to let a claimed hidden doublevoter prove their role, just like had been agreed upon by most of the town for like the entire day phase. What's your point here?

I don't have a point, I'm including it for a full account of the facts, specifically your vote at the time. Not stating that would've been an implication that you'd voted differently, and you'd have jumped on me for that, instead.

And re: my Prims case: you deliberately quoted me out of context. How you quoted: "Yes, you can summarize my Prims case as "he's been a JERK"". The full sentence: "Yes, you can summarize my Prims case as "he's been a JERK", but I think he's been doing it in a scummy way." That's a pretty big misrep.

I'm sorry, the full quote is "He's been a jerk and I guess maybe sounds like mafia." Rock-solid argument.

Nope. Didn't know that. Don't know why I would have. It's not like there was a mod announcement or anything, and how else would I know? So what?

'So what'? So I couldn't post until now, obviously.

Oh, is this what your previous two sentences are about? No, I didn't know you were banned yesterday, but it doesn't matter. I didn't include you in that above scumreads list for inactivity. I included you because your inactivity meant that nothing had changed since D1, when you were a scumread. Your inactivity was only relevant insofar as it meant you hadn't done anything at all to change my mind, since you hadn't done anything at all.

Fair point.

So, you don't believe me when I say that I'm voting him for a fabricated case? If you think I'm lying, please say so.

I'm inclined to think you're lying at this stage, as implied by my vote for you.

I probably couldn't have looked fishy for most of the game given that I didn't post for like the first 48 hours basically

This doesn't help. Anyway, my point was that you looked fishy when you did post, as anyone with a basic understanding of 'implying shit' would realise.

[scorri]

Briefly here:

AtE=Appeal to Emotion. Basically when you're trying to get people to not vote you by being like "no but guys please don't lynch me because I'm just sucking this game and I feel so bad about it and augh ;~;" and is basically trying to get people to not vote you without saying why you aren't scummy.

Grass: Mods stated that Furet wouldn't be around for the last 24 hours or so of the day phase at some point.

Strege claim is interesting. He claimed when he switched his vote to Eury yesterday that Objection's claim was "null" to him when you'd think if he could essentially CC him it'd be more than null... I dunno.

For now, ugh, I don't know what to think. My thoughts on Rein kinda got shot down because he didn't actually push Furet yesterday so he didn't actually go anywhere with his bad case. Besides that, I'm still kind of lost. The massive wall wars that happened plus IRL stuff have made it so I'm having a really hard time focusing on the game. I'll try to get more up later but for now... yeah, I have no clue what to think.

[Grace]

first rule of playing vig: never cc out loud

shoot first, cc later if they're still alive

i wouldn't put it past having multiple vigs when the town is called "mafia", so (mafias can have multiple killers after all)

anyway. refa's grass push irks me, just because of the random certainity and the wanting people to comment on him all too quickly. something about refa's tone also irks me, but i can't put my finger on it. add on the lackluster D1 and yeah.

(i skimmed his iso, but not in any detail at all because my brain is failing to work so)

[scorri]

Manix: I wasn't even saying that Strege should have CC'd him. I don't think that. I just think that his reaction to the claim was weird based on the knowledge that we have now (Strege shot Objection)

[Grassbridger]

Oh, speaking of acronyms... I didn't know what V/LA meant. And posting "this in acronym form" and a picture of whatever the hell that was is not a good way to get your point across unless you've quoted the acronym, so chill.

I'm sorry, the full quote is "He's been a jerk and I guess maybe sounds like mafia." Rock-solid argument.

No, dammit, it's not. Don't put things in quotation marks that aren't quotes. Just don't.

Anyway, responding to scorri... her AtE explanation basically covers what I felt Prims was doing. Obviously not that overstated, but there was no objective indication he was being useless--he had good, active posts, interacting with people and stuff, and it was D1 so no confirmation on anything, and from games I've played with him, it's not like he says that all the time, so I didn't think there was any particular reason for him to express it then. That made me suspicious and feel that it was scummy.

Scorri brings up an interesting point about Strege, re: vote swap. But he did it close to phase end, and I think that was the only way to secure any lynch at all at that point? I'm not sure. On the other hand, that would have given him a fine excuse to switch to Eury despite finding Objection scummy, so I'm not sure what's going on there. Basically, he specifically mentioned Objection as null and then shot him, so I'd like an explanation once he gets back. yeah.

[eclipse]

(not playing)

V/LA = "not here"; in other words, don't expect to see that person for the time period specified

(over and out)

[Refa]

@Grassbridger

-Fair enough in regards to your Objection read, I thought you did have a townread on him but I guess it was closer to a null read.

-Good scum play involves lynching people who find you suspicious, not shooting them in the face. Also considering Prims was the scum kill for sure and was just as suspicious of you, I can turn around your point back at you.

-Inactivity isn't scummy, lurking is. OK, actually looking back kirsche did say he'd be hella busy until Wednesday pre-game, so I'm not too bothered by him in particular (but he should really post more whenever he gets the chance), but it's a bit silly to write off every other lurker. Really it's that sort of laissez faire attitude that just lets scum lurk without ever getting questioned ever.

@Grassbridger's reply to Furet

-Now that I think about it, several of your scumreads are people trying to look like more contribution than they actually are, which is actually rather weak. Scum benefit from posting less, not more.

-Actually, you haven't even read me at all, have you? Why not?

-Also I agree with Furet's point regarding your attitude towards policy lynching Prims for being a jerk. It just...doesn't work like that.

Basically my thoughts on Grassbridger are as follows. His defense WRT to my points on his Objection vote is good, I agree with it. However, his scumhunting has just been lazy this phase despite a lot of posts. Even if you (god forbid) agree with whatever he has to say on me, his other scumreads are based off of...Page 14 and before (actually he missed some stuff around Page 14 as well) and are antiquated at best. Him sticking to them just feels like lazy scumhunting and I don't get why he's never tried to expand on those reads at all considering Shinori at least posted more content since then.

@Strege

-Not really your fault Objection was a twat. Why does he always fakeclaim vig? :\ Next time he claims vig before any shots, I'm turbolynching him.

-Agreeing with Manix WRT to Strege's vig.

anyway. refa's grass push irks me, just because of the random certainity and the wanting people to comment on him all too quickly. something about refa's tone also irks me, but i can't put my finger on it. add on the lackluster D1 and yeah.
(i skimmed his iso, but not in any detail at all because my brain is failing to work so)

All hail Refa!

[Refa]

Ugh, that's my problem. I post way too much over a concentrated period of time. Not posting again for another 12 hours, see you then~

[Grace]

-Now that I think about it, several of your scumreads are people trying to look like more contribution than they actually are, which is actually rather weak. Scum benefit from posting less, not more.

except that fake contribution makes you look more like a townie, and it's plenty generic enough. scum like to do fake contribution as well to try and get by.

so actually, your reason is weak, not his.

(sorry i'm not really doing much, today has just kinda been blah)

[Grace]

you know what, fuck it

##Vote: Refa

going with my best read rn, mostly a combination of post tone and general uneasiness. will make case at a later time

[Percivalé]

actually, something about Refa is bugging me now and it's been that way since his response to my Kirsche suspicion. Can't really say a lot in terms of associative flips since neither of them have flipped, but it felt kinda idk. "oh you might be right, I agree with you but it's hard reading inactive scum" sounds kinda waffly

##Unvote

##Vote: Refa

[euklyd]

Wow. I meant to have more time than this

Well anyways here goes.

After a skim...

So.

Lovely. My three top scumreads are all dead. So I need to re-read in-depth and stuff. Funfunfun.

Agreed with others wrt the Strege claim.

Also I have information that's been eating me up and distracting me from actually playing so I'm gonna post it and damn the consequences.

So, more sort-of content, of a rather different nature, will be contained in a separate post that I've got to move/edit my rambling composition from last night onto. It's gonna be like a claim, but cooler and less useful.

[Percivalé]

also prims was suspicious of refa and kay before he died. in case you guys forgot

I don't like to just drop dead players' scumreads (need to reread eury and objection because I don't remember theirs)

[euklyd]

Ugh it's still eating me up, fuck this indecision.

Also fuck that previous explanation, it made no sense.

Okay so.

Usurper is a thing and they're Mafia (not scum).

They're out to kill me, and know who I am. Our wincons are totally incompatible; I only win if the Russian Mafia wins AND the Usurper loses.

While this doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on you guys (I think), it does mean a few things.

1) There are townies who want me dead.

2) The person who claims Usurper is essentially confirmed town. CC’ing is obviously also totally possible, if someone is stupid enough to try to fake it.

3) The Usurper should probably hold off on claiming until at least sometime after I'm dead, because otherwise their arguments wouldn't be able to get me lynched.

Also if they claimed before I flipped, it would only mean that we’re both the same alignment, and not really clear either of us.

This is basically just a courtesy announcement. I don't think this needs (or deserves) a whole lot of discussion, if it even needs any at all.

/end announcement

Now you have additional, possibly useful, information, and I get to hopefully focus on actually playing the game. So, everyone wins (figuratively speaking).

I'll see if I can come up with some legit content; I've been rather distracted recently.

[Refa]

I'm as good at staying away from Mafia as Manix is.

except that fake contribution makes you look more like a townie, and it's plenty generic enough. scum like to do fake contribution as well to try and get by.
so actually, your reason is weak, not his.

(sorry i'm not really doing much, today has just kinda been blah)

This is dumb. I didn't post a lot and people say I'm playing towards my scum!meta. I post more and people still say I'm scummy because I'm faking contribution (without actually saying what's being faked BTW; I'd already refuted everything Grassbridger said). It's like why even try to make a genuine effort if it's just going to end up in my lynch. I could have hardly efforted at all and most likely made it to the final day unscathed.

actually, something about Refa is bugging me now and it's been that way since his response to my Kirsche suspicion. Can't really say a lot in terms of associative flips since neither of them have flipped, but it felt kinda idk. "oh you might be right, I agree with you but it's hard reading inactive scum" sounds kinda waffly

##Unvote

##Vote: Refa

Everyone had a waffly kirsche read except you, why am I worse in that regard? WRT that not going to support a lynch on kirsche anyways (at least until he has a chance to put out more content) because I remembered that he said he'd be inactive till like Wednesday because of finals or some shit. Said it above but you might have missed that.

Man, that sounds pretty bastard Euklyd. What's the point of having people of the same alignment if they can't win together? :(

[Refa]

also prims was suspicious of refa and kay before he died. in case you guys forgot

I don't like to just drop dead players' scumreads (need to reread eury and objection because I don't remember theirs)

also he was suspicious of grassbridger and you. you forgot to mention so i had to say it for you.

[Grace]

@refa: i wasn't necessarily saying that toward your content itself, just toward the point that you made @grass

i'll delve into this again later when i'm actually around (read as: i'm going out, right now)

also i claim not usurper

[Percivalé]

prims told me he thought I was town before I went to sleep though. He was just frustrated with my play iirc.

also "I did the thing but other guys did the thing too so I'm not scummy for it" is a scummy defense to me fwiw

[Percivalé]

also very sorry about earlier. aggression triggers my anxiety and j00 kinda shook me with that I guess. I'm fine now though. I have someone else to thank and apologize to at postgame lol.