FE9 Tier List

[-Cynthia-]

Muarim is much better at jointime than later on BTW, since he starts off overlevled and other people get Silvers while he's stuck to Claw, just pointing that out. Plus, his AS gets more...iffy.

Also, I'm tired of seeing the "well he/she sucks" argument for low tiers. It's about comparative suck, otherwise we might as well not sort low tiers at all. If Lucia is better than Shinon or Bastian better than Elincia in combat it matters just as much as it does in high tiers.

Edited July 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Plus, his AS gets more...iffy.

He has >20 AS, I hardly call that iffy.

Also, I'm tired of seeing the "well he/she sucks" argument for low tiers. It's about comparative suck, otherwise we might as well not sort low tiers at all. If Lucia is better than Shinon or Bastian better than Elincia in combat it matters just as much as it does in high tiers.

It's only comparative suck if they have nothing but suck. In Elincia's case, she's got a good usage, but Bastian doesn't.

Edited July 14, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

This is slightly exaggerating Mist's support lead.

Now, before Mist promotes, Mist isn't actually a very good partner to have. I mean, look at her supports and thier Movement:

Mist: 5 Mov

Titania: 9 Mov

Jill: 8 Mov

Mordecai: 9 Mov (7 untransformed, but the bonuses are useless to him then)

LolRofl: 6 Mov

Boyd: 6 Mov.

So 3 of her most likely supports (Titania loves her, Jill Loves her, Mordy loves her), have massive mov differences with her. Slowing them down to get them the bonuses isn't doing them any favours and not giving them a bonus isn't doing them any good either so support wise, she's neutral until she promotes, chapter 17.3 or so.

Early promotion.

Eh?

Level xx/15 Bastian with Elthunder: 36 HP, 27 Atk, 17 AS, 50 Avo, 13 Def, 21 Res, 6 Mov

Level xx/4 Elincia with Amiti: 29 HP, 19 Atk, 17 AS, 55 Avo, 15 Def, 19 Res, 9 Mov

2x Warrior lv 7-8 steel axe: 48 hp, 30 atk, 13 AS, 95 hit, 32 avo, 12 def, 7 res

1x Sniper lv 4 steel bow: 31 hp, 22 atk, 14 AS, 110 hit, 32 avo, 12 def, 8 res

1x Paladin lv 7-8 steel lance: 36 hp, 25 atk, 17 AS, 96 hit, 40 avo, 17 def, 10 res

3x Tiger lv 10 claw: 44 hp, 30 atk, 16 AS, 126 hit, 34 avo, 19 def, 8 res

1x Swordmaster lv 10 (ongsword: 35 hp, 21 atk, 22 AS, 130 hit, 51 avo, 11 def, 8 res

Durably, Elincia loses against every enemy save the paladin, where Elincia wins for superier avo, and the SM, who 5RKO's Elincia, but 3RKO's Bastian. This is the same with all the SM's save the brave sword one, who ORKO's both, except he has less hit on Elincia. I'd say they tie.

Offensively, Elincia loses pretty badly.

I don't recall the weapon triangle being removed in this game's Hard mode and I don't see how this comparison helps your argument at all... it does more damage actually >_>.

Heck, if we're not using Mist, we might as well give her the sonic sword, which she has 23 Atk and 19 AS with, add this to her 1-2 range and she becomes superier against every enemy she doubles. And still quite comparable to any she doesn't/Bastian does. So I'd say they tie offensively if she has that.

Assuming it's still intact and we're not using Tanith either.

Growth-wise:

Elincia: 60% HP, 30% Atk, 40% AS, 140% Avo, 25% Def, 35% Res

Bastian: 55% HP, 65% Atk, 55% AS, 140% Avo, 35% Def, 50% Res.

It only looks like a win for Bastian, but when you consider Elincia levels up much faster, she is the superier.

I'd say Flying utility + the mov difference + Healing utility + Bond utility > Bastian's combat lead because Bastian is still terribad at combat, so the fact that he wins means very little.

Except it's not just a growth win for Bastian, it's a also a base stat win. Her durability also makes it difficult for her to do any enemy phase so she's stuck with player and Bastian's player doesn't require him to run up to an enemy and risk a counter-attack plus there's little competition for the long range tome.

[-Cynthia-]

He has >20 AS, I hardly call that iffy.

Muarim will probably only have ~22 AS by Endgame, which misses out on doubling a lot of things.

It's only comparative suck if they have nothing but suck. In Elincia's case, she's got a good usage, but Bastian doesn't.

Bastian has his uses, he can ORKO Wyverns and Generals, deals heavy damage to Dragons/Tigers/other laguz. Of course any other Sage can do the same thing, but any other healer can do Elincia's job as well.

While we're on low tiers, Ulki might need to drop. To put it simply, he's Janaff with doubling issues. Only 15 AS (14 with Demi band) AS at base is pretty bad, especially when you consider he's relatively overleveled and has gauge to deal with, not to mention he only hits marginally harder than Janaff in the first place. He's pulling a lot of 3RKOS and very few ORKOS, which isn't so good even for the low tiers.

[dondon151]

Now, before Mist promotes, Mist isn't actually a very good partner to have. I mean, look at her supports and thier Movement:

Early promotion aside, this would only be a point against Mist if she takes away support slots from her partner. Since it is earlygame, there will always be support slots available. Assuming that this isn't the case, however, do any of them have superior options to Mist? Titania has Ike and Boyd, but Boyd gives crappy bonuses and Ike might not have a slot for her. Mordecai has Ilyana, so that leaves a slot open. Jill has Lethe, so same thing here.

[Zkirsche]

What happened to Ike into top?

I don't recall the weapon triangle being removed in this game's Hard mode and I don't see how this comparison helps your argument at all... it does more damage actually >_>.

You completely missed out the utility bit, the growth bit, and the bit about the utility being superier to Bastian's combat. But yeah, i completely forgot about the weapon triangle.

Muarim will probably only have ~22 AS by Endgame, which misses out on doubling a lot of things.

What stops him reaching 20/20? He needs 11 levels in 17 chapters, or 0.647 levels per chapter. With Muarim's stats, this isn't hard to achieve. At 20/20 he has 23 AS, whcih is enougth to double 23/40 enemies. That's quite a bit. Heck, 23 AS is comparable to alevel 20/19 Titania who has 23 AS, a level 20/15 Kieran who has 23 AS, a 20/19 Boyd has 23 AS, a 20/16 Jill has 23 AS etcetera.

Relative to the team, 23 AS is just not that bad.

Bastian has his uses, he can ORKO Wyverns and Generals, deals heavy damage to Dragons/Tigers/other laguz. Of course any other Sage can do the same thing, but any other healer can do Elincia's job as well.

Bond's? Do they have 8/9 Mov (can't remember precisly)? Do they have swords which boost their def + Res by 3? Can they fly? Etcetera. Elincia's only competition for best lategame healer is Mist for having similar mov yet being more durable and giving out better bonuses.

ORKO generals? In chapter 26 Generals have 12 Res and ~38 HP. That's a 2RKO. Wyvern's? They have ~9 Res and 40 HP. Bastian with Elwind against them has 28 Atk. That's still a 2RKO.

A level 17 Bastian deals 12 damage to the weakest of all the dragons in chapter 28 with Elthunder. And they have 54 HP. Lol5RKO. Against Tigers in chapter 26, a level 20/15 Bastian with Elfire deals 22 Damage which borderline 2RKO's the dragons (If Bastian is slightly mag screwed (57.75% chance) he 3RKO's them) and cats have the same res yet higher speed. They also get 2RKO'ed.

Bastian doesn't ORKO, period.

I think I worded it badly, but I meant that Elincia's otehr utilities far outweigh that of Bastian's meagre combat utility.

While we're on low tiers, Ulki might need to drop. To put it simply, he's Janaff with doubling issues.

I agree with this, he only doubles a third of the enemies on his joining chapter. Later on he'll really start to struggle to double.

I believe he should go below Shinon.

Early promotion.

True enougth, but then her combat is all the worse later on. And Muarim requires 1 resource to be used well (the

Basically, Mist vs Muarim is Combat vs healing. You need combat to complete the game. You don't need healing.

demi band), Mist has 4796861752879 resources (Bands, master seal, bexp, staves, swords etcetera).

Assuming it's still intact and we're not using Tanith either.

Why does Tanith want it? Her base Atk with it is 20, that's pathetic. She'd much rather have a forged javelin.

@dondon: I'm not using it agaisnt her, I'm saying taht supports aren't really a positive until she promotes as she either holds people up to activate the bonuses or doesn't give out any bonuses at all. Neutral utility.

Edited July 14, 2009 by kirsche

[Florete]

Time to pull out the big guns. I was tired and frustrated last night (Not just with this, stuff in real life), so I wasn't thinking as straight as I should have been.

Well, I ended up having to do it quick because my Mother is in the hospital. Oh well.

I can? *_* *puppydog eyes* flattery will get you everywhere X3

I don't flatter.

Rhys gets to seal use earlier, and as seen can put his offense to good use early on. Soren is pretty awesome with seal use in mind. Both don't need supports to be of relatively useful use, while Mist does. I see no reason to bother with her.

Another problem is his access to weaponry. According to the site, Light isn't available in the shop until chapter 13, so I see no point in promoting him sooner. And then there's the other thing I mentioned where it's unlikely both Rhys and Mist are used in the same run, so neither one takes a Seal from the other and Soren can still get his.

But this doesn't matter too much anyway because we already have a method to get Mist to 20/1 by chapter 17. This cuts into her combat use by a few chapters, but in return makes her much better at it now and later.

Units walking around, being OHKOd is generally a bad thing. The less walling I have to do the better ,and Mist has to make me treat her as priority 1. This is annoying, especially when you got other units who don't have to deal with this, and can do more in the process.

With adequate BEXP use, Mist stops getting OHKOd by just about everything at chapter 11. The Ravens double her, but everyone hates those guys (Including this guy known as Rhys) so no one really cares since she's needed here anyway.

They also don't swarm you all at once, and not everyone has godly move here. Using vulernies here isn't a major pain here.

Healing has always and will always be > Vulneraries. I shouldn't have to explain that, especially since this isn't the game where Vulneraries are 8 use and 20 HP recovery.

Rhys, and soon Soren and Illin suddenly don't have any allowabilty to these resources as well? Show me a reason that I should care about Mist when so far I see these people doing better than her. So far, all I see is needing resources, while Muarim pretty much shows up awesome.

When did I say they couldn't get any? I assumed the levels they were given already included adequate BEXP use. It sure looked accurate to me anyway. And all they're "doing better" is a quick jumpstart for extra healing that significantly hurts lategame use, which Mist doesn't suffer. They don't have to either, but then that changes your entire argument.

Doesn't Titania have offense problems later in the game? I'd think this and Rhys would help solve that with a +2 ATK...

You do realize Water also gives atk, right? Water vs. Fire is def vs. hit. Which sounds better? And "later" is also the time Mist is promoted, so thanks for that tidbit.

Rather selfish to take Stefan's only good boost...

Sucks for him that he doesn't have such awesome supports as Mist.

Oh, MAYBE? He'd gladly take Muarim over Illyana, as he gets the defense anyways with 6 more avoid. You also seem to have forgotten about a B with Lethe, which apparently is an allowable A since Zihark's going A with Brom I guess.

There's other things to consider. ZiharkxIlyana B is faster than ZiharkxMuarim B, and Zihark and Ilyana match movement much better as well. Plus, IIRC, Zihark with +25 avoid is already dodging pretty awesome as it is.

A Lethe, B Zihark. 2 Def, lolhit, 29 avoid. Sorry, you were saying this is bad? Hope you aren't.

It's true that no one else wants Lethe support, but she's also less likely to be in play at this point, and it doesn't even reach until chapter 22, at which point the bonuses probably aren't doing a whole lot. On the other hand, Mist is full on supports by chapter 17-19, not to mention with generally better characters.

Well it's assumed that we want to seal our magical people early, Mist included for the ability of some sort of offense and building up weapon level, as 10/20 is not much different from 20/10, which either way they can easily do thanks to staffs/offense. Mist would seem to be our worst cantidate for it. A point I want to get across.

10/20 =/= 20/10. Statistically it does, but it requires more experience once you promote, since the game doesn't differentiate experience gain between 10/1 and 20/1. It isn't as big of a deal for these guys because staff experience doesn't change, but it's still there. 20/10 also has 10 more levels to gain stats.

Stefan would like 2 ATK and whatever Def he can get his hands on. You can't just ignore the other end of a support, just because it's holy.

Stefan only gets +2 atk if he also supports Soren, and that alone takes some time (9 maps, so he'll have it at ch. 24). But hey, let's give Stefan B Mordecai (A won't do anything but some lolHit). Morcdecai has an A slot open. Ilyana just happens to be in play and takes it. Mist now looks at Titania, Boyd, and Jill for her support options.

aka Mist has a lot of options and so she never actually has to take supports from anyone, since you'd have to assume all of Stefan, Mordecai, Ilyana, Titania, Boyd, Rhys, Brom, Jill, and Mist are all in play while two of Gatrie, Mia, Zihark, and then possibly Nephenee aren't in play, and probably some other combinations I missed. But even through all of that, Mist still has easy access to Jill even if you sandbag her and a few others and work supports around so a B option isn't available.

Oh awesome! I get to wait till chapter 18 for a 20 use weapon, and it's not like she has the weapon rank OR the sole use of it!

Mist has access to range. Muarim doesn't. /argument

Good thing no one wants Muarim's paws.

Good thing Mist can get stronger weapons to fix her offense later.

Unless you can show how she is a tank, I doubt she actually can counter too often...

The point was she can Canto away so some else actually can counter. Muarim can't.

Or Mist can whip out a Magic sword to counter.

You do realize that it's so easy to replace Mist with vulneries, much less units who can do her job anyways and more? Might be fewer people, but they do their jobs as well as the other.

You do realize it's so easy to replace Muarim with a fighter, there are plenty of units who can do his job and more.

This is assuming these people support her, she getting a with a D weapon despite E rank swords, and that there's no way in fuck she's getting an occult ahead of Oscar, Keiran, Titania, Ike, Makalov, Astrid. Muarim again just shows up and is awesome. He doesn't need such close attention.

Protip: Mist promotes to D Swords. Oscar, Kieran, Titania, Ike, Makalov, and Astrid all don't need an Occult as much as her (part of why they're all higher on the list, you know?) because they should be quite durable regardless. Besides, by the time Mist promotes, 2 are available anyway. It's easily arguable she should get one over the others, since she's the healer, thus she heals them so they don't need Sol as much. Get it?

[Zkirsche]

Mist has access to range. Muarim doesn't. /argument

I think you missed the point, which was Mist doesn't have much 1-2 range. Lol 12.5 rounds.

That's crushingMuarim, isn't it?

Good thing Mist can get stronger weapons to fix her offense later.

20/20 Muarim has 37 Atk. 20/16 Mist with a forged silver sword has 37 Atk. Yet Muarim is much less costly. Victor? Muarim.

Funny, how a 20/20 Mist has worse concrete durability than base Muarim. Check it out:

Mist: 38 HP/11 Def/25 Res

Muarim: 45 HP/14 Def/7 Res.

Res matters much, much less than Hp and Def due to lack of mages.

So yeah, Muarim can also face more enemies on the enemy phase for better offence.

Edited July 14, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You completely missed out the utility bit, the growth bit, and the bit about the utility being superier to Bastian's combat. But yeah, i completely forgot about the weapon triangle.

Eh no, I did note the fact that she'll be growing faster than Bastian but when you take into account his superior bases as proved by yourself... all she's doing in growing is just trying to catch up to him >_>.

Why does Tanith want it? Her base Atk with it is 20, that's pathetic. She'd much rather have a forged javelin.

Tanith...

STR: 16

MAG: 10

STR: 40%

MAG: 35%

Forged Javelin: 11 MT

Sonic Sword: 10 MT

Thus, 27 Physical ATK and 20 Magic ATK. A 7 ATK difference, looking at enemy stats from her joining chapter, she's usually doing 1-3 damage better with Javelin against non-Knight enemies. That forged Javelin could go to someone else. Hardly any1 gives a damn about the Sonic Sword. So why wouldn't she use it?

Edited July 14, 2009 by Sirius

[Zkirsche]

See previous edited post for more Mist vs Muarim.

Eh no, I did note the fact that she'll be growing faster than Bastian but when you take into account his superior bases as proved by yourself... all she's doing in growing is just trying to catch up to him >_>.

Still ignoring utility, I see.

But.. after looking at statistics, the only thing she can really win endgame is statistics, and even that is iffy (4HP + 0.5 Res vs 3 Def + 14 Avo).

Tanith...

STR: 16

MAG: 10

STR: 40%

MAG: 35%

Forged Javelin: 11 MT

Sonic Sword: 10 MT

Thus, 27 Physical ATK and 20 Magic ATK. A 7 ATK difference, looking at enemy stats from her joining chapter, she's usually doing 1-3 damage better with Javelin against non-Knight enemies. That forged Javelin could go to someone else. Hardly any1 gives a damn about the Sonic Sword. So why wouldn't she use it?

Limited uses, forged javelins can have +crit. etcetera

It goes to better use in Elincia's hands.

It's easily arguable she should get one over the others, since she's the healer, thus she heals them so they don't need Sol as much. Get it?

I think people woudl rather be autohealed by an attack than wait around for the healer. Heck, with sol, their need for healing (Despite being durable, as you said) is gone so you could just replace Mist with Muarim and the team would be better as more combat users helps complete chapters than less combat users.

Edited July 14, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Still ignoring utility, I see.

No, it's just pretty minor at this point.

Limited uses, forged javelins can have +crit. etcetera

So what, we're going to preserve rare weapons so we can keep them as trophies? I know Javelins can have better crit and hit forged into them but it doesn't change the fact she would still use it anyway, doesn't cost her a thing and again, others could use that forged Javelin. Tanith using Sonic Sword and another unit using Forged Javelin >>> Keeping the Sonic Sword intact for Elincia.

It goes to better use in Elincia's hands.

Not really. Enemies would have slightly higher RES between Tanith and Elincia's chapter. To save it just for Elincia to use is stupid.

[Zkirsche]

I concede, Elincia's just too fail to defend.

Though I'm still wondering why Boyd is in Top and not Ike.

Edited July 14, 2009 by kirsche

[dondon151]

1-2 range.

@dondon: I'm not using it agaisnt her, I'm saying taht supports aren't really a positive until she promotes as she either holds people up to activate the bonuses or doesn't give out any bonuses at all. Neutral utility.

It's not neutral if Mist at any point in time can possibly help out one of her support partners.

[Tino]

What happened to Ike into top?

Dunno. I said I'd gather some numbers, but I haven't gotten to doing that.

But I've been thinking. You are the one who thinks Ike should move to Top. Why don't you prove he belongs there?

[-Cynthia-]

I agree with Shinon>Ulki. Heck, I think Ulki could fall all the way below Lucia.

--/11 Ulki(non band/Band)

30/27 Atk 17/16 AS

--/12 Lucia (silver sword/ forge)

28/35 Atk 23 AS

So what does their AS double/not double on Ch24 for example?

Lucia doubles 52/53 enemies

Ulki doubles 29/53 unbanded ,27/53 banded

So yeah, Lucia's doubling about double the enemies Ulki can and probably doing 8 more dmg a hit. Not to mention that in the rare cases where they kill in the same number of rounds, Lucia has a large advantage due to crit. Lucia's chance to crit is pretty substantial, it's about a 30% chance with a +crit forge, so in two attacks she has about a 50% to kill an enemy she normally wouldn't, which is another boost. All in all, big offensive win for Lucia.

Ulki has a durability lead of course, but is Lucia's durability bad enough to hinder her offense?

28 Atk is required to 2RKO Lucia, only 7 out of the chapters 53 enemies reach that. A lot of them are axe users, the highest one only has 89 hit on Lucia, she has 69 Avo, that comes out to 8.2% true hit, which comes out to under a 1% chance of being 2RKOd.

Her chances of dying when she has WTD increase obviously, although their hit rates are still below 50%. When Lucia is getting 3HKOd, her chances of death are pretty small, for example the lvl 15-17 Sword Knights (most common enemy) have only 14.85% true hit on Lucia, her chances of death are once again well under 1%.

Yes, Ulki has +2 Mov and flight over Lucia, but also has gauge to worry about. He's either crippling a better laguz(anyone) from fighting the entire map, or he's spending half the map being unable to counter or attack. It sure is a negative.

Now as for supports, Ulki and Lucia both make fairly shitty partners due to jointime even though they have good affinities. Ulki's options are more likely to be in play, Lucia's options are more guaranteed (who else is Janaff/Bastian going to support?). I'm just going to focus on the bonuses they receive, not their outgoing bonuses which are pretty good in both cases.

Ulki will be able to close the Atk gap somewhat, but even with an unlikely full A/B support, banded Ulki cannot beat Lucia with a forge (unbanded ties). It still doesn't fix Ulki's main problem of his AS.

Lucia on the other hand, gains a substantial durability boost if she can get even one of her partners. Let's look at an example:

--/14 Lucia (A Janaff)

37 HP 12 Def 87 Avo

At this point, none of the axe users on Ch27 can even touch her. Even enemies with WTA over her have under a 20% chance to hit. She has to watch out for tigers I guess, though she could just equip a Laguzguard(something Ulki can't do). And just imagine how dodgy she would be if she got a B support as well.

The Runesword also increases Lucia's durability, via the obvious healing and the 1-2 range allowing her to avoid counters. It's too heavy for Mist and the other sword users have lower Mag anyway, so we might as well give to Lucia.

Anyway, tl;dr, but I think Lucia's offense+ lack of gauge issues> Ulki's durability lead and Mov. Lucia's problems are pretty easily fixable, Ulki not so much.

[Shadow Mir]

Wait a minute... Did someone try to argue Elincia getting the Sonic Sword? Because there's one major problem in the way of that.

[Vykan12]

I still think you guys are looking at Mist too much as a fighter who can heal instead of a healer who can fight. Showing Muarim destroys her in combat is irrelevant because it means his primary function >>> her secondary one. If she were even comparable to him in combat, she'd be way above him in the list.

When considering Mist's combat, it's a matter of weighing issues. If we promote her early, her combat might as well be abandoned, but we also get a mounted healer sooner, which also makes her give outgoing support bonuses more easily. If we promote her later, she can now 2 round common enemies with a forged steel sword, her durability is respectable, and of course she has the means of dominating on offence for a short time with the SS, longer if we choose hammerne it.

Honestly, I don't know which choice is better though based on my last PT, I'd say it's early promotion. Maybe you guys can find agreement on the best route for Mist and argue that route vs Muarim.

[Zkirsche]

Wait a minute... Did someone try to argue Elincia getting the Sonic Sword? Because there's one major problem in the way of that.

Assuming Mist isn't used, obviously. >_>

I'm questioning Ike < Boyd. Ike has more availability and doesn't take up a unit slot the entire game, Boyd has to compete for a spot with the pallys and laguz - all have higher mov and can sometimes be better than him in the first place.

Then, Ike is better with supports, check out his 'A' support times:

Oscar: Chapter 13. 30 Avo

Titania: Chapter 26. 1 def, 15 Avo, 7 Hit

Soren: Chapter 22. 1 Atk, 22 Avo

Lethe: Chapter 23. 15 Avo, 15 Hit

Reyson: Chapter 28. 1 Atk, 15 Avo, 7 Hit

Ranulf: Chapter 26. 22 Avo, 7 Hit.

Elincia: Chapter 28. 15 Avo, 15 Hit

Then, look at Boyd's earliest 'A' times:

Titania: Chapter 18. 1 Atk, 1 Def, 15 Hit

Brom: Chapter 21. 3 Atk, 1 Def, 7 Hit

Mist: Chapter 25. Same as Brom

Ulki: Chapter 25. Same as Brom

So, Ike gives out better bonuses to better (And more) characters (Oscar and Reyson > Mist) at similar times (In the 20's). However, Ike's Oscar support is faster than any of Boyd's. Just a thought.

Statistically, let's take a look at how bad Ike crushes Boyd:

(Heh, my debate with Tino at least gives me easy access to Boyd's stats)

5/0 Boyd with an Iron/Hand Axe: 32 HP, 17/16 atk, 6/3 spd, 6 def, 1 res

8/0 Ike with the regal/steel sword: 24 HP, 16/17 Atk, 11/8 AS, 8 Def, 3 Res

Ike doubles, Boyd doesn't with the regal sword. Since the majority of enemies weild lances, their Atk gap is 3 (Ike has 15, Boyd has 18), this means that the enemeis need to have 13 or more def for Ike to deal less damage. only knights have that much def, and ike has the regal sword for those, which has no competition. Boyd does have the hammer, but he has competition for it (Titania).

Then, the number of lance users drop as the game goes on:

Chapter 7: 21/33 Enemies weild lances (63.636%)

Chapter 8: 23/42 Enemies weild lances (54.762%)

Chapter 9: 8/28 Enemies weild lances (28.571%)(Excluding the bandits)

Chapter 13: 13/29 Enemies weild lances (44.827%)(Excluding the ravens)

Chapter 14: 0 Enemies weild lances (0%)

As you can see, these figures drop from above 50% to below 50% mid-game, only increasing Ike's leads.

Also, Ike's essential in recruiting: Marcia, Jill, Ilyana, Astrid, Gatrie, Makalov, Haar, Tauroneo, Shinon and Nasir.

Boyd's essential in recruiting: Noone.

Ike's early to early-mid game win, better supports and overall better utility > Boyd's late-mid game victory where all units have caught up to the team statistically.

Ike > Boyd.

You have to consider B support times as well since sometimes there’s a huge jump from B to A, and sometimes there isn’t.

Ike A supports

Oscar: Chapter 11. 30 avo

Soren: Chapter 23. 1 atk, 22 avo

Titania: Chapter 26. 1 def, 15 avo

Ike B supports

Oscar: Chapter 8. 20 avo

Titania: Chapter 11. 1 def, 10 avo

Soren: Chapter 16. 1 atk, 15 avo

Boyd A supports

Titania: Chapter 20. 1 atk, 1 def

Brom: Chapter 22. 3 atk, 1 def

Mist: Chapter 26. 3 atk, 1 def

Boyd B supports

Titania: Chapter 15. 1 atk, 1 def

Mist: Chapter 19. 2 atk, 1 def

Brom: Chapter 19. 2 atk, 1 def

he's how they improve (Growths):

HP/Atk/AS/Avo/Def/Res/Crit

Ike: 75/50/55/145/40/40/25

Boyd: 75/60/45/125/25/25/25

10% AS + 20% Avo + 15% Def and Res > 10% Str

Ike > Boyd.

Not to mention, his avo is much, much higher than Boyd's due to supports and he has many different support partners to help fix any problems the RNG creates. Avo screwed? Tough luck Boyd.

Just replace Ike > Boyd with ike should be in the same tier as Boyd.

1-2 range.

Explain how 1-2 range moves people tiers below others. We might as well move Soren into high. After all Zihark/Stefan/Mordy/Muarim/Lethe are cleary a tier worse than him for being locked into swords. [/sarcasm]

If they took up a majority of enemies, I'd agree with you. But they don't, so I don't.

Edited July 14, 2009 by kirsche

[Shadow Mir]

Assuming Mist isn't used, obviously. >_>

Even so, Elincia has one really big problem between her and the Sonic Sword: Her weapon level.

[dondon151]

Explain how 1-2 range moves people tiers below others. We might as well move Soren into high. After all Zihark/Stefan/Mordy/Muarim/Lethe are cleary a tier worse than him for being locked into swords. [/sarcasm]

You're exaggerating and blowing my meaning out of proportion. Ike is 2 spots below Boyd; from a combat perspective, he is directly underneath Boyd. Moving Soren into high tier would yield a much greater gap relative to the 1-range dudes in upper mid. Also, Ike and Boyd share rather similar offensive and defensive parameters, at least moreso than Soren and the 1-range dudes in upper mid, so your analogy makes zero sense on two levels.

Boyd can counter almost every enemy in the game while Ike can't until he gets Ragnell. Ike needs to pull out a ton of other wins in order to even compensate for this. We can't say that Boyd's enemy phase is negligible either, because he's one of the best units on the team with regard to enemy phase.

[Colonel M]

I... might have an argument for Ike in top after this debate is done. Though knowing my luck, I'll probably get lauged at as it is.

[-Cynthia-]

Eh, I think the value of which tier a character is in is being overemphasized, seeing as the tiers themselves are pretty arbitrary. Really the tiers more make it easier to read than anything else, it might as well just be a list with all the characters in order. This can also lead to some arguments like "Largo isn't much worse than Lower Mid people, he should be Lower Mid" but then someone else comes along and says "Well Mia shouldn't be a tier under Largo!" etc. etc. I usually focus on what characters someone is under rather than what tier they're in.

Edited July 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

It's not so much "I want to pit Ike in Top Tier", it's more along the lines of "Yeah, I admit Reyson is awesome and all, but is he seriously warranted to be > Ike in the first place."

[Florete]

I think you missed the point, which was Mist doesn't have much 1-2 range. Lol 12.5 rounds.

If anything, I can just have her hold it, and if I see she'll end up in range of a ranged enemy for the enemy phase, I equip it. The best weapons don't have to be used immediately. Having 1-2 range > not.

20/20 Muarim has 37 Atk. 20/16 Mist with a forged silver sword has 37 Atk. Yet Muarim is much less costly. Victor? Muarim.

Why Muarim at 20/20 and Mist not? Recall that Mist is primarily a healer, which gives her her own experience pool, while Muarim is always competing with others for kills, and without the Demi Band, will lose time for that as well. If anything, those levels should be switched. Both still have similar AS and double most everything (though lategame has some 21 AS enemies Mist is more likely to double), but the fact that Mist actually has decent chance of passing Muarim's atk really says something about how he is later. And then there's the chance Mist can have something like A Mordy/B Boyd and get her atk up to 39, which is pretty borderline on some lategame enemies.

But yeah, the fact that Mist actually catches up to Muarim in atk (and can possibly beat him) makes me wonder how he can possibly be better than her when fighting is all he's good for and all he ever had on her. She heals, she's better at Rescuing due to Canto, she's a better supporter, etc.

Funny, how a 20/20 Mist has worse concrete durability than base Muarim. Check it out:

Mist: 38 HP/11 Def/25 Res

Muarim: 45 HP/14 Def/7 Res.

Res matters much, much less than Hp and Def due to lack of mages.

It's true, but you still left out supports, which can give her as much as +5 Def to that. And then there's avoid to consider, but you said concrete, so I'll assume you left that out on purpose.

And then any Magic enemy Mist pwns while Muarim stays away. Less useful, but msot definitely worth noting.

I think people woudl rather be autohealed by an attack than wait around for the healer. Heck, with sol, their need for healing (Despite being durable, as you said) is gone so you could just replace Mist with Muarim and the team would be better as more combat users helps complete chapters than less combat users.

Sol is not definite, though. Plus, it's not as easy to heal Mist if she gets hurt because she can't heal herself, only others. So if all but one of our teammates can be healed easily by that one, doesn't it sound smart to give the healing ability to that one?

And wth at Sol replacing Mist. Sol goes to one unit (or two I guess) for a max of 26% chance to activate. How the F does that replace a healer?

[Shadow Mir]

And why the hell would Titania want to support Rhys over Mist? Not only is there a huge move difference, but in addition, the bonuses are horrible.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin