FE9 Tier list v3

[Kaoz]

Curious in-the-dark-question: Has anyone used both Marcia and Mia in a playthrough? Considering Marcia (supposedly) requires a boatload of BEXP to do some of the noted things, I thought of the situation of how Mia would impact it, if at all, if both were used at the same time. My guess is nothing would really change for Marcia nor Mia, but I'm too busy to pick up the game. FE12, fanfictions, writing how Skarmory is a baller, arguing on the internet, being called Rick James by women... you know the drill by now.

Yes. I never finished it, but it should be more than enough for this.

Chapter	Mia	Marcia
8	10	-
9	12	-
10	14	11
11	15	14
12	16	20/01
13	16	20/02
14	18	20/02
15	19	20/04
16	19	20/04
17	19	20/05
18	20/01	20/07
19	20/01	20/07
20	20/01	20/07
21	20/01	20/07
22	20/01	20/08

Also, I support Tormod going above Gatrie and Brom. 5/6 Move is just terrible in a game with so many good high move units. Siege tomes can be useful in chapters 20 and 22 (depending on the rest of your team) and if you didn't level Mist, it's nice to have a healer that can keep up with your frontline units while still having useful offense I guess.

[-Cynthia-]

All right, Tormod now at the top of Mid.

Also moved Volke and Sothe down right below Haar, if people have issues with this move say something.

[aku chi]

All right, Tormod now at the top of Mid.

Also moved Volke and Sothe down right below Haar, if people have issues with this move say something.

I have issues with this. Volke is substantially better than Sothe; how are they now adjacent?

- Volke exists in Chapter 10. He is helpful there regardless (can open cells and nab treasures) and essential in a stealth run if you hope to recruit any units. He can also participate in Chapter 11, visiting a house or contributing to combat or whatever.

- Volke has better durability than Sothe; he can be exposed to enemies that Sothe cannot while stealing/getting treasures.

- Volke has higher Strength and Speed than Sothe; he can steal Physics from Bishops at base. Sothe needs Bexp or babying to do this.

- Volke has better combat than Sothe. It's poor, but it occasionally helps.

- Volke has a higher build and can shove more units as a result.

In general, Volke and Sothe offer some unique utility that does save turns (most notably in Chapter 13 and getting the Boots in Chapter 15). While this utility isn't the best, it is still helpful and they are the only two that can provide it. In my mind, their thief utility is about as valuable as siege tome utility, which is mostly all Calill has going for her. And Volke needs even fewer resources than Calill for his utility. As for the other units in mid: Brom, Geoffrey, and Devdan offer no utility nor contribute uniquely in any way. Are mediocre combat units more valuable than what Volke and Sothe can uniquely provide?

I'm going back on my initial intention to avoid directly arguing for certain unit placements, because I believe that this move was an over-reaction. Comparing utility units to combat units is difficult, but I see Sothe as most comparable to Calill. Both units provide some rare utility (thieving and siege tomes, respectively) and require little resources. Calill has combat that will rarely be helpful (due to poor movement and durability) but maybe that can give her an edge over Sothe. Volke, meanwhile, I believe to be more fitting at the bottom of Upper-Mid. He's probably most comparable to Rhys; both provide low maintenance utility (of similar value, in my judgement) and have the potential to provide mediocre combat with some resources. Maybe Rhys's supports push him ahead of Volke. Then again, I'm not sure if anything that Rhys does actually saves turns, whereas Volke most certainly can in Chapter 13 and via the Boots (for those who care about LTCing).

[Radiant Dragon]

I have issues with this. Volke is substantially better than Sothe; how are they now adjacent?

- Volke exists in Chapter 10. He is helpful there regardless (can open cells and nab treasures) and essential in a stealth run if you hope to recruit any units. He can also participate in Chapter 11, visiting a house or contributing to combat or whatever.

- Volke has better durability than Sothe; he can be exposed to enemies that Sothe cannot while stealing/getting treasures.

- Volke has higher Strength and Speed than Sothe; he can steal Physics from Bishops at base. Sothe needs Bexp or babying to do this.

- Volke has better combat than Sothe. It's poor, but it occasionally helps.

- Volke has a higher build and can shove more units as a result.

It doesn't matter that Volke is that much better than Sothe if it doesn't make him better than the unit above him.

In my mind, their thief utility is about as valuable as siege tome utility, which is mostly all Calill has going for her. And Volke needs even fewer resources than Calill for his utility.

Base Calill with Elthunder and a Spirit Dust ORKO's every enemy in Ch.20 except magic users and the boss (and she doesn't even need the Dust for most enemies). This is without BEXP, mind you. Siege tomes are NOT all she has going for her; They're simply yet another facet of her usefulness. Honestly, I fail to see how she's below the likes of the Knights and Geoffrey.

I also still want to see Bastian > Ena.

As for the other units in mid: Brom, Geoffrey, and Devdan offer no utility nor contribute uniquely in any way. Are mediocre combat units more valuable than what Volke and Sothe can uniquely provide?

I agree with this. The Knights are nigh useless in this game.

[Shadow Mir]

I'm going back on my initial intention to avoid directly arguing for certain unit placements, because I believe that this move was an over-reaction. Comparing utility units to combat units is difficult, but I see Sothe as most comparable to Calill. Both units provide some rare utility (thieving and siege tomes, respectively) and require little resources. Calill has combat that will rarely be helpful (due to poor movement and durability) but maybe that can give her an edge over Sothe. Volke, meanwhile, I believe to be more fitting at the bottom of Upper-Mid. He's probably most comparable to Rhys; both provide low maintenance utility (of similar value, in my judgement) and have the potential to provide mediocre combat with some resources. Maybe Rhys's supports push him ahead of Volke. Then again, I'm not sure if anything that Rhys does actually saves turns, whereas Volke most certainly can in Chapter 13 and via the Boots (for those who care about LTCing).

As for Rhys's supports, there's only one support he has that's even reasonable, and it's one-way.

[aku chi]

It doesn't matter that Volke is that much better than Sothe if it doesn't make him better than the unit above him.

Comparing utility units directly with combat units is difficult. But seeing two utility units who provide substantially different amounts of utility next to each other (surrounded by combat units) is an (admittedly inconclusive) indication that something is amiss.

Base Calill with Elthunder and a Spirit Dust ORKO's every enemy in Ch.20 except magic users and the boss (and she doesn't even need the Dust for most enemies). This is without BEXP, mind you. Siege tomes are NOT all she has going for her; They're simply yet another facet of her usefulness. Honestly, I fail to see how she's below the likes of the Knights and Geoffrey.

But the objective of Chapter 20 is to kill the boss, and Calill doesn't have the movement to help clear a path to the boss nor the durability to survive a rescue-drop. She can, with her combat, help visit the northern house, but she does have to worry about getting killed. Her best contribution here is to siege-weaken Shiharam. It's a similar story in other chapters. Calill can kill enemies, but if she isn't using siege magic to do it, it probably isn't helping to clear the chapter. At best, she can contribute a little towards secondary objectives (getting treasures and such). Chapter 25 is the only rout chapter left, and Calill can help some here with her good/decent combat, but she still lags behind 7-mov units, let alone laguz, and needs to worry about dying. That being said, I'm not opposed to Calill moving up a little; siege utility is pretty good by itself.

I also still want to see Bastian > Ena.

You and me both. Mediocre siege utility for 6 chapters is better than decent shoving for 2.

[Shadow Mir]

I also still want to see Bastian > Ena.

Supporting this as well. At least Bastian can use siege tomes.

[Radiant Dragon]

Comparing utility units directly with combat units is difficult. But seeing two utility units who provide substantially different amounts of utility next to each other (surrounded by combat units) is an (admittedly inconclusive) indication that something is amiss.

How do they provide substantially different utility? They can both open chests/doors, find desert treasure, and steal (although Volke has more speed, so he can steal from more enemies, I suppose).

But the objective of Chapter 20 is to kill the boss, and Calill doesn't have the movement to help clear a path to the boss nor the durability to survive a rescue-drop. She can, with her combat, help visit the northern house, but she does have to worry about getting killed. Her best contribution here is to siege-weaken Shiharam. It's a similar story in other chapters. Calill can kill enemies, but if she isn't using siege magic to do it, it probably isn't helping to clear the chapter. At best, she can contribute a little towards secondary objectives (getting treasures and such). Chapter 25 is the only rout chapter left, and Calill can help some here with her good/decent combat, but she still lags behind 7-mov units, let alone laguz, and needs to worry about dying. That being said, I'm not opposed to Calill moving up a little; siege utility is pretty good by itself.

Chapter 20 was just an example of her performance, with the point being Calill can consistently be relied upon to kill any enemy we need dead, which can often be a crucial part of our strategy. What are the Knights and Geoffrey doing that makes them better?

[aku chi]

How do they provide substantially different utility? They can both open chests/doors, find desert treasure, and steal (although Volke has more speed, so he can steal from more enemies, I suppose).

I already detailed Volke's advantages over Sothe. It's up to your judgement whether or not they're "substantial".

Chapter 20 was just an example of her performance, with the point being Calill can consistently be relied upon to kill any enemy we need dead, which can often be a crucial part of our strategy. What are the Knights and Geoffrey doing that makes them better?

"Calill can consistently be relied upon to kill any enemy we need dead" ... that she can reach and doesn't put her in danger of death. Which, as I pointed out, generally excludes her from most kills that would actually help us complete the primary objective of the chapter (unless she's sieging). Geoffrey obviously has better movement, and he can ORKO a fair number of enemies (albeit, most at 1-range). He also has good durability, so he can move fully in safety. On the downside, he's only particularly useful in two chapters and slightly useful (potentially) in two more. And he's redundant if you've trained enough other mounted units. Calill only has competition from a well trained Tormod in the siege tome department (and she is still better thanks to her great weapon levels). As for the Knights, Gatrie is a big help in the early chapters, both can help in more rout chapters than Calill, and Brom and Gatrie make decent (if unspectacular) rescue-drop candidates. I'm not arguing for or against Calill moving, I'm just describing how Gatrie, Brom, and Geoffrey can contribute.

[dondon151]

Your experience may differ, but I find Ike is at a higher level and can therefore handle himself better in Chapter 7 (due to Boyd and Oscar being MIA in Chapters 3 and 4). And swords being lighter is probably most relevant at this stage in the game, because Boyd and Oscar might still be weighed down by Steel weapons, but Ike is most likely not. Regardless, it's unlikely that Ike, Boyd, and Oscar will all be ORKOing here, so Mia can team up with one of them to finish kills.

Plow BEXP into Boyd/Oscar. I seem to recall Boyd needing to be at only a modest level in order to ORKO everything on the map.

Boyd only needs about 9 AS to double almost all enemies on the map. Only about level 9 on average. 22 atk to get most enemies, which requires a significantly higher level with Iron Axe, but most soldiers only requires 20 atk, which is about level 10 on average. Knights require at least 26 atk, which is a bit out of reach even with the Steel Axe.

Oscar isn't going to get near the ORKOing threshold, in all likelihood.

I have issues with this. Volke is substantially better than Sothe; how are they now adjacent?

- Volke exists in Chapter 10. He is helpful there regardless (can open cells and nab treasures) and essential in a stealth run if you hope to recruit any units. He can also participate in Chapter 11, visiting a house or contributing to combat or whatever.

- Volke has better durability than Sothe; he can be exposed to enemies that Sothe cannot while stealing/getting treasures.

- Volke has higher Strength and Speed than Sothe; he can steal Physics from Bishops at base. Sothe needs Bexp or babying to do this.

- Volke has better combat than Sothe. It's poor, but it occasionally helps.

- Volke has a higher build and can shove more units as a result.

If you had 6 pennies and I had none, I wouldn't say that you were substantially wealthier than me.

[Radiant Dragon]

I already detailed Volke's advantages over Sothe. It's up to your judgement whether or not they're "substantial".

They're not.

"Calill can consistently be relied upon to kill any enemy we need dead" ... that she can reach and doesn't put her in danger of death. Which, as I pointed out, generally excludes her from most kills that would actually help us complete the primary objective of the chapter (unless she's sieging). Geoffrey obviously has better movement, and he can ORKO a fair number of enemies (albeit, most at 1-range). He also has good durability, so he can move fully in safety. On the downside, he's only particularly useful in two chapters and slightly useful (potentially) in two more. And he's redundant if you've trained enough other mounted units. Calill only has competition from a well trained Tormod in the siege tome department (and she is still better thanks to her great weapon levels). As for the Knights, Gatrie is a big help in the early chapters, both can help in more rout chapters than Calill, and Brom and Gatrie make decent (if unspectacular) rescue-drop candidates. I'm not arguing for or against Calill moving, I'm just describing how Gatrie, Brom, and Geoffrey can contribute.

Again, are we idiots who throw Sages into hordes of enemies with no back up? Her durability isn't anything special, but it's more than enough to not get in her way.

If I recall correctly, her offense is superior to Geoffrey's if he doesn't use the Brave Lance or a forge (which I'm not saying he's not entitled to, but the fact is that Calill doesn't need forges to kill enemies). As you admitted, Geoffrey only has 2 chapters of usefulness, while Calill has many more.

So what if the Knights are in more Rout chapters? How do the Knights help us in Rout chapters when they can't ORKO enemies? Besides, Calill is more useful in Arrive and Seize chapters, killing enemies on Arrive/Seize points or chokepoints so the rest of our army can move forward or end the chapter.

Calill needs to rise above the Knights, and Geoffrey should be right below her.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Florete]

I do wonder why Geoffrey's always been rated so highly. His bases are pretty mediocre and, despite good growths and Paragon, he'll never really get anywhere special. Lances and Bows is a good weapon combination, but he'd probably benefit more from Axes, or at least A rank Bows for powerful range. His first map cuts him down to 4 move and the remaining few he probably can't really make substantial contributions in. He should probably be lower than units like Haar and Janaff, if you ask me. Their combat might not be great but at least they're around longer and have flight on their side.

[Anouleth]

Plow BEXP into Boyd/Oscar. I seem to recall Boyd needing to be at only a modest level in order to ORKO everything on the map.

Boyd only needs about 9 AS to double almost all enemies on the map. Only about level 9 on average. 22 atk to get most enemies, which requires a significantly higher level with Iron Axe, but most soldiers only requires 20 atk, which is about level 10 on average. Knights require at least 26 atk, which is a bit out of reach even with the Steel Axe.

Oscar isn't going to get near the ORKOing threshold, in all likelihood.

Nice idea, but you can't use BEXP in Chapter 7. There is the Speedwing, though, which makes it a lot easier for Boyd to double and ORKO.

[aku chi]

Again, are we idiots who throw Sages into hordes of enemies with no back up? Her durability isn't anything special, but it's more than enough to not get in her way.

Calill cannot safely move anywhere she wishes like Brom and Gatrie can. She is a poor rescue/drop candidate for this reason.

So what if the Knights are in more Rout chapters? How do the Knights help us in Rout chapters when they can't ORKO enemies? Besides, Calill is more useful in Arrive and Seize chapters, killing enemies on Arrive/Seize points or chokepoints so the rest of our army can move forward or end the chapter.

The Knights help kill enemies. That helps in rout chapters. Unfortunately for Calill, she can only participate in one of them. The Knights (especially Brom) can double slower enemies, getting some ORKOs against the normally tough Generals and Wyvern Lords due to high Strength. They can also OHKO some enemies, namely Myrmidons, Mages/Sages, Archers, and Preists/Bishops.

Calill can't help much in Arrive/Seize chapters because she can't keep up with her awful 6 mov. She can clear away annoying enemies and injure/kill the boss with siege tomes, though.

[Radiant Dragon]

Calill cannot safely move anywhere she wishes like Brom and Gatrie can. She is a poor rescue/drop candidate for this reason.

Brom and Gatrie are poor rescue/drop candidates as well, since they can't actually kill enemies. When did I say Calill was a good rescue/drop candidate?

The Knights help kill enemies.

...And? Anyone not named Rhys/Sothe/Ena can help kill enemies. Even Reyson indirectly helps kill enemies, and he's better at it than the Knights.

Unfortunately for Calill, she can only participate in one of them (rout chapters).

So? When did I say Calill's greatest contributions were in Rout maps?

The Knights (especially Brom) can double slower enemies, getting some ORKOs against the normally tough Generals and Wyvern Lords due to high Strength. They can also OHKO some enemies, namely Myrmidons, Mages/Sages, Archers, and Preists/Bishops.

They can't double Wyvern Lords, and can't 2HKO Generals. Besides, anyone can kill Myrmidons, Mages/Sages, Archers, and Preists/Bishops (okay, Sages have problems with the magic users).

Calill can't help much in Arrive/Seize chapters because she can't keep up with her awful 6 mov. She can clear away annoying enemies and injure/kill the boss with siege tomes, though.

Why can't Calill kill an enemy in a chokepoint early on, letting our army advance? I'm not suggesting Calill is having lots of Enemy Phase exposure, but she's much more useful than the Knights and Geoffrey.

I do wonder why Geoffrey's always been rated so highly. His bases are pretty mediocre and, despite good growths and Paragon, he'll never really get anywhere special. Lances and Bows is a good weapon combination, but he'd probably benefit more from Axes, or at least A rank Bows for powerful range. His first map cuts him down to 4 move and the remaining few he probably can't really make substantial contributions in. He should probably be lower than units like Haar and Janaff, if you ask me. Their combat might not be great but at least they're around longer and have flight on their side.

He can ORKO with Silver Lance forges, which is more than Janaff and Haar can say (Haar can ORKO with the Brave Axe, but there's only one of those). Does this make him better than them? I don't know.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[aku chi]

This is getting wearisome.

Brom and Gatrie are poor rescue/drop candidates as well, since they can't actually kill enemies. When did I say Calill was a good rescue/drop candidate?

I was pointing out the value of better durability; it lets one move more places in safety. And Brom and Gatrie most certainly kill enemies. With a resonable amount of resources, they can ORKO about half of the enemies and 2RKO the rest. As I've already stated, they're hardly spectacular rescue/drop candidates (Boyd, Nephenee, and Ike are generally better), but they are an option.

...And? Anyone not named Rhys/Sothe/Ena can help kill enemies. Even Reyson indirectly helps kill enemies, and he's better at it than the Knights.

But it's rather difficult to kill enemies when you aren't available for deployment, no? So Gatrie and Brom can contribute in Chapters 13, 17-1, and 18 but Calill most certainly cannot. Capiche?

They can't double Wyvern Lords, and can't 2HKO Generals. Besides, anyone can kill Myrmidons, Mages/Sages, Archers, and Preists/Bishops (okay, Sages have problems with the magic users).

Ugh, I'll go stat searching then.

- The Wyvern Riders in Chapter 18 have 9 AS. Brom gets 13 AS naturally at 20/5, but can have that at 20/1 with 3-4 levels of Knight Ward level-ups. Gatrie is more borderline, needing 20/3 and 6 Knight Ward level-ups (or similar).

- To 2HKO the Generals in Chapter 18, 34 Attack is needed. Gatrie can easily pull that off with a Steel forge. Brom needs to be around 20/3 to 2HKO with a Steel Lance forge.

- Myrmidons can actually be a difficult ORKO because few units double them and few units OHKO.

Why can't Calill kill an enemy in a chokepoint early on, letting our army advance?

Can you name a chapter where this is relevant? Chapters 21, 23, and 27 are the only ones I can think of where there might be a defended chokepoint near the start.

He can ORKO with Silver Lance forges, which is more than Janaff and Haar can say (Haar can ORKO with the Brave Axe, but there's only one of those). Does this make him better than them? I don't know.

Haar can also ORKO with the Brave Lance and he can double slower enemies. And the Braves are excellent Hammerne candidates. I think Haar could stand to move up. Janaff, not so much. He's pretty much all flyer utility, but of the worst kind (8 mov, no canto, poor durability, untransforms, can't rescue heavy units, poor combat, no 2-range...).

[Radiant Dragon]

I was pointing out the value of better durability; it lets one move more places in safety. And Brom and Gatrie most certainly kill enemies. With a resonable amount of resources, they can ORKO about half of the enemies and 2RKO the rest. As I've already stated, they're hardly spectacular rescue/drop candidates (Boyd, Nephenee, and Ike are generally better), but they are an option.

I wouldn't call the amount of resources needed for the Knights to double most enemies 'reasonable'. See the bottom of the post about rescue-dropping.

But it's rather difficult to kill enemies when you aren't available for deployment, no? So Gatrie and Brom can contribute in Chapters 13, 17-1, and 18 but Calill most certainly cannot. Capiche?

I'm aware Calill's availability isn't exactly the best, thank you. Unless you're trying to say that the Knights' contributions in those three chapters outweigh Calill's contributions throughout the whole game?

- The Wyvern Riders in Chapter 18 have 9 AS. Brom gets 13 AS naturally at 20/5, but can have that at 20/1 with 3-4 levels of Knight Ward level-ups. Gatrie is more borderline, needing 20/3 and 6 Knight Ward level-ups (or similar).

- To 2HKO the Generals in Chapter 18, 34 Attack is needed. Gatrie can easily pull that off with a Steel forge. Brom needs to be around 20/3 to 2HKO with a Steel Lance forge.

- Myrmidons can actually be a difficult ORKO because few units double them and few units OHKO.

- Wyvern Riders are not Wyvern Lords, and most good units have no problems killing Wyvern Riders.

- The Knights will never make it to fight those Generals; They're too far away. In fact, the Generals in most chapters are in places where the Knight's simply won't get to in time.

- Any Paladin with a forged Steel Axe can OHKO Myrmidons with passable accuracy, despite WTD. A forged Steel Lance should also work for Oscar or Kieran.

Can you name a chapter where this is relevant? Chapters 21, 23, and 27 are the only ones I can think of where there might be a defended chokepoint near the start.

22 is all about chokepoints, although she can just kill the boss on turn 1 so it doesn't mean much. Also, the east side in 25 has a tendency to get clogged, in my experience. Plus, siege tomes are great for helping to kill Bertram and Endgame Dragons. That's over half of the chapters Calill is available.

Haar can also ORKO with the Brave Lance and he can double slower enemies. And the Braves are excellent Hammerne candidates. I think Haar could stand to move up. Janaff, not so much. He's pretty much all flyer utility, but of the worst kind (8 mov, no canto, poor durability, untransforms, can't rescue heavy units, poor combat, no 2-range...).

I personally believe Rescue is a better Hammerne candidate, but that's only my opinion and the staff has 3 uses so whatever. I agree that Haar and Janaff should move above the likes of Largo, Devdan and the Knights.

About rescue-dropping: I would like some input from others here, but I really only bother with rescue-dropping when I need to get Ike to the Seize point; My fliers and Paladins are always enough to deal with the majority of enemies themselves. I just don't see the point of dropping Boyd or someone into a bunch of enemies to kill them and delay seizing a turn.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[aku chi]

I wouldn't call the amount of resources needed for the Knights to double most enemies 'reasonable'.

I said "ORKO about half", not "double most", so please stop twisting my words. I've already explained that some of the ORKOs come from doubling and some come from OHKOs.

- Wyvern Riders are not Wyvern Lords, and most good units have no problems killing Wyvern Riders.

- The Knights will never make it to fight those Generals; They're too far away. In fact, the Generals in most chapters are in places where the Knight's simply won't get to in time.

- Any Paladin with a forged Steel Axe can OHKO Myrmidons with passable accuracy, despite WTD. A forged Steel Lance should also work for Oscar or Kieran.

- Wyvern Riders are not easy foes to ORKO without magic or the Sonic Sword.

- Granted, but that wasn't the topic at hand. I didn't feel like digging up more stats. Feel free to do it yourself if you want to demonstrate that Brom and Gatrie cannot 2HKO Knights or Generals.

- Eh, it depends on their levels. Brom will probably have more Strength than any Paladin except Kieran, with realistic resource distribution. Gatrie will likely surpass all but Boyd in Strength. They can get some OHKOs that most units cannot.

22 is all about chokepoints, although she can just kill the boss on turn 1 so it doesn't mean much. Also, the east side in 25 has a tendency to get clogged, in my experience. Plus, siege tomes are great for helping to kill Bertram and Endgame Dragons. That's over half of the chapters Calill is available.

I like Calill; I think she's useful. But I think the majority of that use comes from her siege tome use, not 1-2 range combat. That was my original point that went off on a wild tangent.

I'm aware Calill's availability isn't exactly the best, thank you. Unless you're trying to say that the Knights' contributions in those three chapters outweigh Calill's contributions throughout the whole game?

I'm just pointing out, at your request, some of the advantages the Knights have over Calill. I'm not particularly interested in placing their vastly different pros and cons on a scale and measuring them. I think that Calill does have a legitimate case over Brom and Gatrie, but I believe you're going too far with your claims about the Knights being worthless.

I agree that Haar and Janaff should move above the likes of Largo, Devdan and the Knights.

I don't believe that Janaff should move up any further.

About rescue-dropping: I would like some input from others here, but I really only bother with rescue-dropping when I need to get Ike to the Seize point; My fliers and Paladins are always enough to deal with the majority of enemies themselves. I just don't see the point of dropping Boyd or someone into a bunch of enemies to kill them and delay seizing a turn.

There is no point rescue/dropping if you're going to lose a turn. There is a point if it either saves you a turn or makes things safer/easier. If you are training every mounted unit, you'll probably have enough to ORKO everything so that you won't need to rescue/drop. But if you aren't using as many mounted units for whatever reason, rescue/dropping a good combat unit with the few 9-mov units that you do have can be useful.

BTW, if you want to ferry some unit forward without incurring rescue penalties (pre-Savior), you can use two high-mov units to rescue/take/drop the unit each turn. The dropped unit gets one player phase attack each turn. If you can clear out the rest of the enemies on enemy phase, this is a nice strategy. (If you're wondering, you might want to ferry the low-mov unit to ORKO the boss or clear a tough chokepoint, for instance.)

[-Cynthia-]

Keep in mind that when arguing KW capable units, one can safely assume most of the levelups are gained with it on. Obviously there's significant competition on the battlefield, but it makes more sense to give Brom or Gatrie BEXP levelups when we can swap the KW around freely.

Geoffrey is "replacable", as most characters are, but he also replicates the performance of the high tier paladins for several chapters, albeit with minimal investment. That being said, his total chapters of usefulness are only about equal in number to Gatrie's earlygame alone, so I can't really see Geoffrey>Gatrie.

Volke is better than Sothe in some ways, but not sure his differences matter much in the end.

Brom/Devdan/Gatrie can obtain better offense than Haar due to KW access and have significant availability leads over him (less so in Devdan's case). Haar's Spd is a problem for him in general, he can use Braves to compensate, but Braves can be used by many characters. Not sure about Calill vs. Brom, siege tomes help compensate for her Mov issues but he does have a rather large durability lead.

Edited April 27, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Radiant Dragon]

I'm just pointing out, at your request, some of the advantages the Knights have over Calill. I'm not particularly interested in placing their vastly different pros and cons on a scale and measuring them. I think that Calill does have a legitimate case over Brom and Gatrie, but I believe you're going too far with your claims about the Knights being worthless.

Fair enough. I do believe the Knights are close to worthless, since anything they can do (except tank, which isn't very useful) other units can do better. However, if you believe that Calill should go above the Knights, then there's no point continuing this discussion.

I don't believe that Janaff should move up any further.

What do Devdan or Largo bring to the party that can compare with Janaff's flying + passable combat and durability?

That being said, his total chapters of usefulness are only about equal in number to Gatrie's earlygame alone, so I can't really see Gatrie>Geoffrey.

This sentence makes me think you mean to say you can't really see Geoffrey > Gatrie. Is that what you meant?

Brom/Devdan/Gatrie can obtain better offense than Haar due to KW access and have significant availability leads over him (less so in Devdan's case). Haar's Spd is a problem for him in general, he can use Braves to compensate, but Braves can be used by many characters.

Haar uses Braves better than most characters though, since he sees arguably the most benefit and will see much more combat than the Knights due to flight + high move.

Not sure about Calill vs. Brom, siege tomes help compensate for her Mov issues but he does have a rather large durability lead.

How does Calill have move issues in a Calill vs. Brom comparison? Not to mention her offense is leagues better than his, and his durability means little when he can't see much combat.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[aku chi]

Volke is better than Sothe in some ways, but not sure his differences matter much in the end.

No other comment on the rest of that post? Aren't Volke and/or Sothe's Chapter 13 and getting the Boots in Chapter 15 at the very least better than whatever Devdan, Brom, and Geoffrey can do, if not also Gatrie, Haar, Calill, Tormod, and Rhys?

Brom/Devdan/Gatrie can obtain better offense than Haar due to KW access and have significant availability leads over him (less so in Devdan's case). Haar's Spd is a problem for him in general, he can use Braves to compensate, but Braves can be used by many characters. Not sure about Calill vs. Brom, siege tomes help compensate for her Mov issues but he does have a rather large durability lead.

Haar has the best mobility in the game, and has the durability to rescue/drop safely (Chapters 25 and 28 being most notable). Haar can also ORKO almost everything at 1-range with Brave weapons. Other units can pull that off, but they don't have his movement. As for Haar's Speed, Devdan needs 7 levels, 5 with the Knight Ward, to match Haar's base Speed. At which point Haar dominates Devdan in Strength and durability. Brom is in worse shape; he needs to be 20/6 with 13 Knight Ward levels to match Haar's base Speed. At least he can almost match Haar's other stats if Brom reaches this level by Chapter 23. Gatrie's Speed is hopelessly low; he's never catching Haar without Speedwings.

What do Devdan or Largo bring to the party that can compare with Janaff's flying + passable combat and durability?

What possible combat test does Janaff pass? As a combat unit, he's worse than Lucia! And while he has some flying utility, it is of the worst sort, as I've already explained. Devdan and Largo can help in rout chapter(s) (chapter in Largo's case). Largo can do some really impressive things in Chapter 25 with Vantage/Wrath, and is decent without the skills. Devdan is less spectacular, but also has chapters 17-1 and 18 to boost his resume.

Edited April 27, 2011 by aku chi

[Radiant Dragon]

What possible combat test does Janaff pass? He actually has some of the worst combat in the game. And while he has some flying utility, it is of the worst sort, as I've already explained. Devdan and Largo can help in rout chapter(s) (chapter in Largo's case). Largo can do some really impressive things in Chapter 25 with Vantage/Wrath, and is decent without the skills. Devdan is less spectacular, but also has chapters 17-1 and 18 to boost his resume.

His combat is better than Devdan's and his durability and availability is better than Largo's. And they're not going to be flying anytime soon, or have as much move as Janaff does without the Boots. There is gauge issues though, but at least Janaff has early transformation to his benefit.

Vantage/Wrath Largo, though... I've got to try that sometime.

[Shadow Mir]

Haar has the best mobility in the game, and has the durability to rescue/drop safely (Chapters 25 and 28 being most notable). Haar can also ORKO almost everything at 1-range with Brave weapons. Other units can pull that off, but they don't have his movement. As for Haar's Speed, Devdan needs 7 levels, 5 with the Knight Ward, to match Haar's base Speed. At which point Haar dominates Devdan in Strength and durability. Brom is in worse shape; he needs to be 20/6 with 13 Knight Ward levels to match Haar's base Speed. At least he can almost match Haar's other stats if Brom reaches this level by Chapter 23. Gatrie's Speed is hopelessly low; he's never catching Haar without Speedwings.

Uh, chapter 25 has an Iron Ballista that two-shots him unless he has the Full Guard...

[aku chi]

His combat is better than Devdan's and his durability ... is better than Largo's.

Arguable on both points. While Janaff has more Speed than Devdan, he loses in Strength, lacks 2 range, and doesn't have effective, +crit, or Brave weapon options like Devdan. And with liberal Knight Ward use, Devdan can double most enemies.

And while Janaff beats Largo slightly in concrete durability (slightly due to Largo's high HP), Janaff does have bow and wind weaknesses and is a 2-range target (Largo can deter 2-range attackers by equipping a 1-2 range weapon). Largo can also boost his durability via Vantage, because he crit-blicks often (even more with Wrath).

Uh, chapter 25 has an Iron Ballista that two-shots him unless he has the Full Guard...

1) Haar won't be in Ballista range for more than one turn, and I believe that he can avoid it entirely if he flies along the edges.

2) Haar can be Physic'd while en route.

3) Why not give the rescue-dropper the Full Guard?

Most Importantly) What flyer has better durability?

Edited April 27, 2011 by aku chi

[Radiant Dragon]

Arguable on both points. While Janaff has more Speed than Devdan, he loses in Strength, lacks 2 range, and doesn't have effective, +crit, or Brave weapon options like Devdan. And with liberal Knight Ward use, Devdan can double most enemies.

And while Janaff beats Largo slightly in concrete durability (slightly due to Largo's high HP), Janaff does have bow and wind weaknesses and is a 2-range target (Largo can deter 2-range attackers by equipping a 1-2 range weapon).

These are both true. I guess it comes down to Janaff's flying vs. Devdan and Largo's slightly superior combat, durability and lack of gauge. It's hard to judge, especially since we have many superior units that outclass all of them. However, Janaff does have less competition to his advantage.

I'm not sure on this one. Right now I just want to see Calill below Tormod and Bastian above Ena. Geoffrey vs. Knights and Janaff vs. Devdan and Largo are too close for me to judge.