Red Fox of Fire's character review topic (Complete)

[CT075]

I think you should mention that Heather's your only chance to get a Bolting before part 4. Otherwise, keep up the good work!

But is it really that practical? Considering the amount of abuse it'll take, I say no.

It isn't really that much of a stretch. I think there are a few Energy Drops you can use on her, and if there aren't, you can always give her 2 BEXP levels (Probably less if you've done ANY fighting with her) and Crown her.

[Florete]

I think you should mention that Heather's your only chance to get a Bolting before part 4. Otherwise, keep up the good work!

But is it really that practical? Considering the amount of abuse it'll take, I say no.

It isn't really that much of a stretch. I think there are a few Energy Drops you can use on her, and if there aren't, you can always give her 2 BEXP levels (Probably less if you've done ANY fighting with her) and Crown her.

IIRC, the only part 3 Boltings are in 3-2 and 3-E. There's no Crown available for 3-2, so she'd need either both available Energy Drops or the 2-E Drop and some Strength abused level ups. By 3-E I really don't think it's even worth it, but by then she can at least have leveled and promoted.

[Shadow Mir]

I think you should mention that Heather's your only chance to get a Bolting before part 4. Otherwise, keep up the good work!

But is it really that practical? Considering the amount of abuse it'll take, I say no.

It isn't really that much of a stretch. I think there are a few Energy Drops you can use on her, and if there aren't, you can always give her 2 BEXP levels (Probably less if you've done ANY fighting with her) and Crown her.

But I'd have to either give her both available Energy Drops (not practical) or give her the 2-E Energy Drop and hope for Strength on 3 level ups (also not practical). WRT BEXP on Heather: Good luck with that.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Richter Renard

[Narga_Rocks]

To get the Dracoshield, usually you wait until a turn where you're going to kill Ludveck, because otherwise Heather will die. Standard strategy:

- Get Leanne and a flier (Marcia or Haar or whomever) on the second platform, and have the flier pick up Heather on the turn prior.

- Next turn, have the flier go down to the third platform, and drop Heather.

- Have Leanne fly down and Vigor Heather (and the flier if you want).

- Run up to the General, and steal the Draco.

- Do whatever else you want, but finish by killing Ludveck to end the chapter.

Did you forget? It's possible to have a flier drop Heather, vigor both Heather and the flier, have Heather grab the draco, have the vigored flier pick up Heather and fly away, then have another flier pick up Leanne and fly away.

It's easy if you clear out the southwest are first. I'm not 100% sure it can be done simply from the middle area, but I think it can. Like so:

___________
LLLLLLLLLLL
BB
H E
L E
MEEE

 E
E E
EBE

Marcia flies down, drops Heather, moves to the M.

Leanne flies down, vigors Heather and Marcia, stays put (or moves one right).

Heather steals the draco (1N 1W from boss), and then Marcia picks her up and flies straight back up.

Elincia/Haar/Nealuchi flies down, picks up Leanne, flies away. Another unit grabs Leanne and drops her so she can vigor again the following turn. Heather stays carried so that you can repeat the process (slightly differently) the following turn in order to grab the olivi grass. Alternatively, the olivi grass can be obtained first in a similar manner (though less complex) and the draco the following turn.

There are alternatives to this, for example having the HLM block one lower. I don't think two lower works.

Oh, and Heather requires either ~8 levels + crown or level 10 + energy drop + crown to be able to steal the 3-E Bolting without reset abusing for strength. The 3-2 Bolting can only be acquired through abuse or saving the 1-2 energy drop for her (in addition to the 2-E one) and also getting her 3 or 4 levels to proc strength once. In other words, rather inefficient without abuse, and abuse isn't allowed in things like this. 3-E is arguable, though, especially if the team will have multiple sages deployed in 4-E-3. Potentially worth the loss of a crown. Also makes it possible to have SS knives for 4-4 and be semi-useful for more than merely grabbing chests.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Also makes it possible to have SS knives for 4-4 and be semi-useful for more than merely grabbing chests.

In more ways than one.

[Narga_Rocks]

Also makes it possible to have SS knives for 4-4 and be semi-useful for more than merely grabbing chests.

In more ways than one.

Not intended. Oops.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Also makes it possible to have SS knives for 4-4 and be semi-useful for more than merely grabbing chests.

In more ways than one.

Not intended. Oops.

You're not the first one to say it, but it became more and more tempting the more often I saw it.

[Florete]

Lethe

Poor Lethe gets screwed both by her bases and what actually makes a lot of people love her: her class. Yeah, the Cat class is not very good in this game, and Lethe is the first of them.

She joins in 2-2 where she's decent. She doubles everything and while she doesn't always kill she generally does good damage, all while being fairly durable. 2-E is a bit tougher on her since her low atk is being challenged by more high Defense enemies as well as faster enemies she can't double. Of course, her big issue is not only her fairly average combat abilities but keeping her transformed. No one likes Cat gauge because, although it increases fairly fast when untransformed, it decreases faster than others. With limited Olivi Grass as well as better units around to use it, keeping her transformed and fighting is not always possible.

It only gets worse in part 3 when she returns in 3-4. She has the same gauge issues, although now there's generally more Olivi Grass to spread around so it isn't quite as bad, though she still needs to smoke it probably every other turn at best. Her real issue now is her combat. She can reasonably have 29 atk since she can grab a support with Mordecai, but that's just not very good. She's mostly two rounding when she doubles, but she's also getting very borderline on doubling as well. She has 24 Speed and enemies are beginning to break 21. What's worse, her base level of 21 means she gains experience like a tier 3 Beorc, aka she isn't getting any better any time soon. Add in the fact that her growths are mostly bad (nothing past 50% except HP), her caps aren't good, and you realize she's pretty much screwed for the rest of the game.

I already mentioned a C support with Mordecai in 3-4, but that is likely as far as it goes. While it's true Lethe's Heaven affinity does benefit Mordecai to a certain extent, too many others want Mordecai's Water for Lethe to have a good claim to it, and at the same time Mordecai likely doesn't care very much. On the other hand, no one really wants Heaven.

So we have Lethe, a character who is stuck not being able to do much even when she's decent and then sucking for the rest of the game.

2/10

Transfer changes:

She's not getting anything from a transfer. Pass.

Mordecai

Mordecai is the son of Jair from the tribe of Benjamin. Mordecai resides in Susa, the metropolis of Persia. He adopted his cousin Hadassah (Esther), an orphan child, whom he tenderly brought up as his own daughter. When "young virgins" were sought, she was brought into the presence of king Ahasuerus and was made queen in the place of the exiled queen Vashti. Mordecai was then promoted to a position of royal court advisor as a result of ingratiating himself to Ahasuerus and was therefore referred to subsequently as one of those who "sat in the king's gate" to indicate his position of closeness to the King. While holding this office, he discovered a plot of Bigthan and Teresh, the King's Chamberlains eunuchs to put the king to death, which, by his vigilance, was defeated. His services to the king in this matter were duly recorded in the royal chronicles.

Haman the Agagite had been raised to the highest position at court. Mordecai refused to bow down before him because it is a clear violation of Jewish Law; and Haman, being stung to the quick by the conduct of Mordecai, resolved to accomplish his death in a wholesale murder of the Jewish exiles throughout the Persian empire. Tidings of this cruel scheme soon reached the ears of Mordecai, who communicated with Queen Esther regarding it, and by her wise and bold intervention the scheme was frustrated by distributing arms to the Jews of Shushan and other Persian cities where they lived and clashed with Haman's militia, until the King rescinded the edict to murder the Empire's Jews. The Jews were delivered from destruction, Mordecai was raised to a high rank, donned in the royal bluish cloak, and Haman was executed on the gallows he had by anticipation erected for Mordecai. In memory of the deliverance thus wrought for them, the Jews to this day celebrate the feast of Purim of "Lots" because of the lots that were drawn by Haman to decide whom he would first murder among the Jewish elders in Persia.

Esther 2:5-6 states:

Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite; Who had been carried away from Jerusalem with the captivity which had been carried away with Jeconiah king of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away. (KJV)

Some interpret this verse to mean that Mordecai himself was exiled by Nebuchadnezzar, others interpret it to mean that his great-grandfather Kish was exiled making Mordecai three generations removed from the time of Jeconiah's exile.

There is much debate over how much credit he should receive for his deeds. I find him highly valuable and rate him accordingly.

9/10

In Radiant Dawn:

Mordecai is the last 2-2 joiner. What makes Mordecai awesome now and for some time to come is his crazy high base Defense of 32. There is not a single physical enemy in 2-2 that reaches 33 atk, so the only way he takes damage is via poison, Magic, or being attacked untransformed, none of which are very threatening when you also consider his 57 HP. His offense is nothing to write off either. He kills everything in two hits at worst, some in 1 (these are mostly Mages), and he even doubles some slower enemies. He's the #3 unit in this map at worst and very helpful for reaching the turn limit. Then in 2-E he's still very good. Some enemies can actually damage him now, but since everyone else is worse off in the defensive department this isn't exactly a bad thing. He still hits very hard, although some tougher enemies might take 3 hits from him to go down instead of 2. Still, he's pretty much your best tank when transformed and is easily the best one to invest your Olivi Grass in.

His abilities don't change much when he comes back in 3-4, though a tank like him isn't as useful anymore since defense is no longer a big issue for most. You can pretty much count on him never dying unless he starts attacking Magic enemies, and his high base atk will allow him to continue 2 hit KOing enemies for a while, his atk boosting affinity helping him cover some ground where he's borderline. His big problem is that he will never, ever double unless he uses Resolve because his Speed is simply awful. Luckily for him he's a good candidate for Resolve since he can reasonably survive in that health range, and when he is there he's doubling everything but Swordmasters. Of course, getting there is the problem; he needs to be attacked while untransformed, which isn't always the most efficient way of doing things. On top of that, it means he won't have the full map to actually be using Resolve.

Overall, Mordecai is a very solid character. He's got great Defense, though his offense will suffer in time given his non-existent Speed (Which not only means no doubling, but trouble reaching S Strike) fairly low Strength growth, and pretty bad Skill. His mobility is nice and his Water affinity is very desirable for borderline units like Janaff and Ulki, but his occasional offensive problems on top of needing transformation prevent me from giving him a very high score.

7.5/10

Transfer changes.

Nothing. Been there, done that.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

It saddens me that your score for Lethe is even lower than what smash gave her. Oh well.

As for your write up on Mordecai, I'm curious, did you do all that yourself or did you cp (parts of) it from somewhere? It's a nice write-up.

[Florete]

It saddens me that your score for Lethe is even lower than what smash gave her. Oh well.

You must have seen it before the last minute edit. I raised her to 2. But for future reference, do remember that some scores, especially those in the lower range, will skew downward due to 0 and 0.5 existing.

As for your write up on Mordecai, I'm curious, did you do all that yourself or did you cp (parts of) it from somewhere? It's a nice write-up.

It's not from Wikipedia.

[Narga_Rocks]

It saddens me that your score for Lethe is even lower than what smash gave her. Oh well.

You must have seen it before the last minute edit. I raised her to 2. But for future reference, do remember that some scores, especially those in the lower range, will skew downward due to 0 and 0.5 existing.

True, you do have 0 and 0.5 for yours. I kinda neglected that. And I see the 2 now.

As for your write up on Mordecai, I'm curious, did you do all that yourself or did you cp (parts of) it from somewhere? It's a nice write-up.

It's not from Wikipedia.

Ok. Is this to be a guessing game of where it's from or are you saying that you wrote it yourself?

Edited December 21, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Fireman]

It saddens me that your score for Lethe is even lower than what smash gave her. Oh well.

You must have seen it before the last minute edit. I raised her to 2. But for future reference, do remember that some scores, especially those in the lower range, will skew downward due to 0 and 0.5 existing.

True, you do have 0 and 0.5 for yours. I kinda neglected that. And I see the 2 now.

As for your write up on Mordecai, I'm curious, did you do all that yourself or did you cp (parts of) it from somewhere? It's a nice write-up.

It's not from Wikipedia.

Ok. Is this to be a guessing game of where it's from or are you saying that you wrote it yourself?

Well if it's anything, it's definitely not from this site.

[Narga_Rocks]

It saddens me that your score for Lethe is even lower than what smash gave her. Oh well.

You must have seen it before the last minute edit. I raised her to 2. But for future reference, do remember that some scores, especially those in the lower range, will skew downward due to 0 and 0.5 existing.

True, you do have 0 and 0.5 for yours. I kinda neglected that. And I see the 2 now.

As for your write up on Mordecai, I'm curious, did you do all that yourself or did you cp (parts of) it from somewhere? It's a nice write-up.

It's not from Wikipedia.

Ok. Is this to be a guessing game of where it's from or are you saying that you wrote it yourself?

Well if it's anything, it's definitely not from this site.

So when she said "not from Wikipedia" it was a hint to where it was from? Urg.

[Bryan]

It saddens me that your score for Lethe is even lower than what smash gave her. Oh well.

You must have seen it before the last minute edit. I raised her to 2. But for future reference, do remember that some scores, especially those in the lower range, will skew downward due to 0 and 0.5 existing.

True, you do have 0 and 0.5 for yours. I kinda neglected that. And I see the 2 now.

As for your write up on Mordecai, I'm curious, did you do all that yourself or did you cp (parts of) it from somewhere? It's a nice write-up.

It's not from Wikipedia.

Ok. Is this to be a guessing game of where it's from or are you saying that you wrote it yourself?

Well if it's anything, it's definitely not from this site.

So when she said "not from Wikipedia" it was a hint to where it was from? Urg.

No offence, but I'm amazed you didn't catch that sooner. You seem bright. :)

Mordecai is a great help in 2-2,he helps me wall. :)

[Florete]

Geoffrey

Isn't it funny how Geoffrey starts 4 levels higher than he did in PoR but with 6 less Hp and 3 less Defense? Some other characters get hit like this as well, I just forget to check.

Anyway, Geoffrey is one of the Crimean Royal Knight's you acquire in 2-3. To be perfectly fair, he's about tied for the best character in this map. His twenty AS doubles the majority of the maps enemies, almost always with enough atk to one round, and he's pretty durable as well. He has access to the Brave Lance, Horseslayer, and Killer Lance for whatever the occasion, although he does have to share them, so he doesn't get all three. He's a very solid character in 2-3. I only wish he existed in 2-E, but his team shows up too late to really do anything of value.

Then he's got 3-9. He's no longer doubling and he's not quite as durable but still one of your better units since the team is largely the same but the others haven't grown much either. He no longer gets to use Paragon and due to leaving again after this map likely won't get many kills, but he's still a very useful asset for clearing the map. He comes back again in 4-5, where he pretty much sucks. He's getting doubled a lot now and he hasn't had enough time to grow, nor does he have any now to be ready for Endgame.

In the end, Geoffrey is pretty good and helpful for a few maps but just gets screwed over by bad availability.

4/10

Transfer changes:

He can get Speed from a transfer. It sounds cool, but it doesn't do much. In fact, the only way it'll really impact his performance at all is if he Crowns in 3-9 so he can double the 20 AS enemies, but that Crown has a hefty opportunity cost, so that's unlikely.

Kieran

Geoffrey already got hit by this game's Paladin nerf, but Kieran is the first to get a significant dump because of it.

He joins in 2-3 with Geoffrey and the gang. He's about on par with Geoffrey here for the most part, which makes him about tied for the best unit. He has the same Speed, a bit more durability, and a bit less Strength, so most of what Geoffrey could do, so can Kieran, only Kieran has no Brave weapon and a Hammer instead of Horseslayer, as well as having them all to himself. 2-E is, like Geoffrey, mostly non-existent for him.

Then we get him back for 3-9, where he'll likely be using Paragon if the player plans to use him any further. He'll be getting a lot of kills, but otherwise he's still one of your best units for clearing this map because the team is largely the same as before. However, unlike Geoffrey, he doesn't leave until the end of the game. You can use him again in 3-11, where he's no longer among the best but still usable. He'll likely never double again, but he does have good Strength and durability. In fact, mobility aside, he's more of a General than most of this game's Generals are.

It may take him some time to promote, but he should be fairly decent in part 4. None of the routes are particularly kind to Paladins, so choose with caution. His biggest problem will be offense, since he never doubles and actually has bad Hit, though the Hit can be mitigated by going with Tibarn, a forge, and a support partner, since even though Wind generally sucks he actually really likes the Hit boost from it.

You likely won't take him to Endgame because he's really slow, but if you do he should have enough Strength to make good use of the Brave Axe. Overall, he's just kind of average, maybe a bit below. He's pretty good for a couple maps then becomes really bland.

4.5/10

Transfer changes:

He can reasonably get Strength, Skill, and Speed from a transfer. This is really nice for him. The Strength helps against some enemies he might have been borderline on, as well as capping faster for possible BEXP use, the Skill helps his Hit issues, and the Speed gives him a prayer for doubling, as well as preventing most possibilities of getting doubled and maybe even making him worth the 3-9 Crown. It isn't much, but it does help him.

5/10

[Narga_Rocks]

No offence, but I'm amazed you didn't catch that sooner. You seem bright. :)

Sometimes I take people literally.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not really seeing what constitutes Marica being 2 points above Kieran and 2.5 above Geoffrey.

In 2-3 (I'll give Marcia a whole level for 2-P even though that's pretty questionable without giving her the boss kill):

--/6 Marcia (Iron Greatlance)

35 HP 27 Atk 21 AS 16 Def 15 Res 55 Avo

--/15 Geoffrey (Stl Greatlance)

37 HP 38 Atk 20 AS 18 Def 15 Re 59 Avo

--/11 Kieran (Stl Poleaxe)

41 HP 36 Atk 20 AS 18 Def 11 Res 56 Avo

Both of them have fairly significant durability leads on her (2-4 HP and mroe importantly 2 Def). The Atk is the important stat here though, 9-11 Atk is the difference between 2 and like 4RKOing, or ORKOing or not when these units double (which is almost the same length of time).

Marcia does fly, but this is actually somewhat of a hindrance here because of the multiple Bowgun and Bows near the Arrive point. You could say Geoffrey/Kieran have to worry about the Horseslayer guy, but there's only one of him and Geoffrey can kill him with his own Horseslayer regardless. And while the Bowguns have an extremely high chance to hit Marcia (over 90% true), the Horseslayer guy only has ~39% true on Geoffrey.

Marcia isn't incredibly helpful on 2-P or 2-E either. On 2-P she doesn't really help towards map completion all that much, most of what she does is for self-improvement and letting Elincia get a few heals in I guess. On 2-E she's limited to killing Mages, which even Lethe can do and she got a 2, or throwing Javelins, IE more self-improvment. Marcia's 2-P and 2-E are not really big factors.

As for 3-9, yes Marcia's flight is more helpful here. However, the stats from 2-3 still apply since they've only had 1-2 levelups since then anyway. Marcia has serious doubling issues here. Even if she got 3 levels (if we did 2-E the quick way, I doubt this will be the case). She only doubles a total of 8 enemies, and the Generals really don't count for much since she deals like 8-10 damage to them.

Now maybe she's a lot better than Kieran come 3-11?

--/10 Marcia (forged Steel Lance)

38 HP 33 Atk 23 AS 18 Def 17 Res 63 Avo

--/14 Kieran (forged Steel Axe)

43 HP 39 Atk 21 AS 20 Def 12 Res 59 Avo

Kieran still wins durability. He wins offense as well, Marcia can only double a few Pallies, some of the Sages, Bishops, and a few Geneals. Again, Marcia does such sad damage to the Generals that that doesn't count for much anyway.

Lategame

20/7 Marcia (forged Steel Lance)

48 HP 40 Atk 33 AS 26 Def 26 Res 83 Avo

20/9 Kieran (forged Steel Axe)

55 HP 49 Atk 27 AS 30 Def 19 Res 72 Avo

Kieran's durability and Atk leads have only gotten bigger. Granted, Marica can at least double consistently now, so the Atk gap isn't quite as bad.

Marcia's flying utility does come in handy if she goes on Micaiah's route, but on the other two routes Kieran's movement penalties are minor.

As for Endgame, Marcia's Spd lead helps her beat Kieran in 4-E(4) and 4-E(5), but doesn't matter for 4-E(3) and 4-E(1) is all Generals which Kieran can beat with a Hammer, while Marcia can hope she at least 2RKOs.

Is Kieran or Geoffrey> Marcia? Eh, probably not. But a 2-2.5 gap really isn't justified considering their various leads over her. I would prob move Kieran and Geoff up to 5.5 and 5.0 respectively.

[Florete]

--/6 Marcia (Iron Greatlance)

35 HP 27 Atk 21 AS 16 Def 15 Res 55 Avo

--/15 Geoffrey (Stl Greatlance)

37 HP 38 Atk 20 AS 18 Def 15 Re 59 Avo

--/11 Kieran (Stl Poleaxe)

41 HP 36 Atk 20 AS 18 Def 11 Res 56 Avo

Both of them have fairly significant durability leads on her (2-4 HP and mroe importantly 2 Def). The Atk is the important stat here though, 9-11 Atk is the difference between 2 and like 4RKOing, or ORKOing or not when these units double (which is almost the same length of time).

What you failed to take into account is that Iron Greatlance is not Marcia's best choice of weapon. There's Killer Lance, Horseslayer, and Brave Lance, all of which are better choices most of the time. Sure, she has to share them, but if you tell me she can't even get one of them I call sandbagging, and it's not like you gave Geoffrey the Brave Lance here anyway.

Marcia does fly, but this is actually somewhat of a hindrance here because of the multiple Bowgun and Bows near the Arrive point.

No, you've got that mixed up. Flying is an advantage, Bow weakness is a hindrance. I know you meant that, but the way you say it makes it sound like it's all bad and no good.

You could say Geoffrey/Kieran have to worry about the Horseslayer guy, but there's only one of him and Geoffrey can kill him with his own Horseslayer regardless. And while the Bowguns have an extremely high chance to hit Marcia (over 90% true), the Horseslayer guy only has ~39% true on Geoffrey.

Again, no. If Geoffrey is down by even 1 HP the Horseslayer will OHKO him. You can't say the Bowguns are a problem for Marcia and act like that isn't a problem for your horses. Narga explained this to Vykan in the tier topic pretty well.

On 2-E she's limited to killing Mages, which even Lethe can do and she got a 2, or throwing Javelins, IE more self-improvment. Marcia's 2-P and 2-E are not really big factors.

Marcia can kill stuff from down the ledges and doesn't have a stupid gauge. That isn't even comparable to Lethe. She might not be a wall, but she's still quite helpful unless the map is 1-2 turned.

As for 3-9, yes Marcia's flight is more helpful here. However, the stats from 2-3 still apply since they've only had 1-2 levelups since then anyway.

3 maps and she can only gain 1-2 levels? I'd say 3 is more likely.

Marcia has serious doubling issues here. Even if she got 3 levels (if we did 2-E the quick way, I doubt this will be the case). She only doubles a total of 8 enemies, and the Generals really don't count for much since she deals like 8-10 damage to them.

At the start anyway. If she got 3 levels she'll have ~22 Spd, and with Paragon she needs 1-2 levels to start doubling the 19 AS enemies, a third for the 20 AS enemies. This might take some time but at least she has a reliable chance to double enemies here.

Now maybe she's a lot better than Kieran come 3-11?

--/10 Marcia (forged Steel Lance)

38 HP 33 Atk 23 AS 18 Def 17 Res 63 Avo

--/14 Kieran (forged Steel Axe)

43 HP 39 Atk 21 AS 20 Def 12 Res 59 Avo

Wut. Kieran, who has two fewer maps and a higher base level (this Marcia hasn't even reached Kieran's base level) only gained two less levels? To be fair to him, given Paragon that level is probably accurate, but then Marcia's is too low. Considering Kieran probably gained about half a level at best in 2-3, that's 2.5 levels in 3-9. Considering Marcia should be at level 8 for 3-9 at worst, you gave her two levels. No. Just no. Although kill-feeding may sound like blatant favoritism, it's actually viable wherever it doesn't hurt efficiency in 3-9 just like Paragon use is, so Marcia can easily come out of 3-9 at level 12, 11 at bare minimum. At that level she's cleanly doubling all Paladins and in just one more will start getting Snipers. Also, don't leave out supports. Marcia has Fire to boost her atk. A doubling Marcia is pretty much always 2 rounding, which is really not that bad. On the other hand, Kieran has no chance of doubling.

Is Kieran or Geoffrey> Marcia? Eh, probably not. But a 2-2.5 gap really isn't justified considering their various leads over her. I would prob move Kieran and Geoff up to 5.5 and 5.0 respectively.

No, Kieran and Geoffrey are staying. Although I should probably lower Marcia to a six, since although I don't agree with a lot of your comparisons, you're probably right that the gap is too big.

[-Cynthia-]

What you failed to take into account is that Iron Greatlance is not Marcia's best choice of weapon. There's Killer Lance, Horseslayer, and Brave Lance, all of which are better choices most of the time. Sure, she has to share them, but if you tell me she can't even get one of them I call sandbagging, and it's not like you gave Geoffrey the Brave Lance here anyway.

You seem to have missed the point entirely here, which is that the Atk gap persists with all weapons, because what Marcia really has is a large Str gap between her and Kieran/Geoffrey that persists whether they're using 1 range, 1-2 range or what have you.

Marcia can use the Killer Lance, but she can't ORKO most of the enemies near the end of the map with a Crit anyway. Sure she can sue the Horseslayer, but ORKOing the swarms of unpromoted Knights is not that useful considering Geoff and Kieran can do it with basic weapons. As for the Brave Lance, sorry kiddo Geoffrey is Doritos. He can actually do things like ORKO those Bowgun Warriors with it, Marcia is still 2RKOing stuff that matters.

Again, no. If Geoffrey is down by even 1 HP the Horseslayer will OHKO him. You can't say the Bowguns are a problem for Marcia and act like that isn't a problem for your horses. Narga explained this to Vykan in the tier topic pretty well.

One unit that's easily ORKOd with 39% true as opposed to multiple units with 92.2% true (or around 70% for the archers)? There's obviously a big difference in the amount of work we have to do to keep Marcia safe as opposed to Kieran/Geoffrey. Killing that one Horseslayer guy is much easier than killing the Warriors/Snipers/Archers, and the Horseslayer guy will more than likely miss even if he does attack a mounted unit (the hit goes down even more if they're on a thicket for example). Acting like Bows/Bowguns and the Horseslayer are equal threats is completely retarded.

Marcia can kill stuff from down the ledges and doesn't have a stupid gauge. That isn't even comparable to Lethe. She might not be a wall, but she's still quite helpful unless the map is 1-2 turned.

Her Javelin damage is pretty poor. Marcia is again borderline on the doubling here (and when she does it's things like Knights she barely damages). "Quite helpful" is quite the overstatement. As for the Lethe comparison, Lethe has 2 more Mt at base level than Marcia does with a Javelin. Lethe doubles quite a bit more too (24 compared to 21 AS), so I really don't think we can declare Marcia as quite helpful and Lethe not so.

As for 3-9, yes Marcia's flight is more helpful here. However, the stats from 2-3 still apply since they've only had 1-2 levelups since then anyway.

3 maps and she can only gain 1-2 levels? I'd say 3 is more likely.

Marcia won't gain a full level from 2-P unless she gets the boss kill, the units from 2-3 that she can actually ORKO give shitty EXP, and we may very well be 1-2 turning 2-E. All these factors combined don't help Marcia's Exp gain.

At the start anyway. If she got 3 levels she'll have ~22 Spd, and with Paragon she needs 1-2 levels to start doubling the 19 AS enemies, a third for the 20 AS enemies. This might take some time but at least she has a reliable chance to double enemies here.

Still over less than half the map, even at 22 AS. It's not like she's ORKOing when she doubles either, except on Sages/Bishops. Even if she's 2RKOing, this barely helps the team. Considering she's going to want to stick to one range to have any semblance of damage output, she's going to be taking counters, and with her poor durability, that means required healing. The GMs should be mostly tier 3 this point, so Marcia chipping enemies they could ORKO anyway isn't very helpful.

Wut. Kieran, who has two fewer maps and a higher base level (this Marcia hasn't even reached Kieran's base level) only gained two less levels? To be fair to him, given Paragon that level is probably accurate, but then Marcia's is too low. Considering Kieran probably gained about half a level at best in 2-3, that's 2.5 levels in 3-9. Considering Marcia should be at level 8 for 3-9 at worst, you gave her two levels. No. Just no. Although kill-feeding may sound like blatant favoritism, it's actually viable wherever it doesn't hurt efficiency in 3-9 just like Paragon use is, so Marcia can easily come out of 3-9 at level 12, 11 at bare minimum. At that level she's cleanly doubling all Paladins and in just one more will start getting Snipers. Also, don't leave out supports. Marcia has Fire to boost her atk. A doubling Marcia is pretty much always 2 rounding, which is really not that bad. On the other hand, Kieran has no chance of doubling.

If we're using Kieran, we're also feeding him kills, which means his level could conceivably be higher as well. It's also easier to do, since Kieran requires less damage to be done to the enemy first.

As for Marcia's level, her leveling in 3-9 is hindered by her offensive and defensive struggles. She's KOing enemies in as many rounds as they take to KO her with no reliable healing support, except she can 2RKO Soldiers and the Archers can 2RKO her.

I have no clue where you get the idea that Marcia is level 8 minimum (if you're implying she's going to be more than that, lol @ you). She's fighting almost all unpromoted enemies for 2-P and 2-3 (and we don't want to kill too many 2-3 enemies), and f she's fighting promoted enemies she struggles. Plus, she'll gain almost no Exp for 2-E if we 1-2 turn it, which is a distinct possibility.

No, Kieran and Geoffrey are staying. Although I should probably lower Marcia to a six, since although I don't agree with a lot of your comparisons, you're probably right that the gap is too big.

A 2 point gap between Marcia and Geoffrey is still a pretty huge error.

Edited December 22, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

As for the Brave Lance, sorry kiddo Geoffrey is Doritos. He can actually do things like ORKO those Bowgun Warriors with it, Marcia is still 2RKOing stuff that matters.

If that's true, why did you not give it to him in the first place? Besides, bullshit. You fell into this one:

Sure she can sue the Horseslayer, but ORKOing the swarms of unpromoted Knights is not that useful considering Geoff and Kieran can do it with basic weapons.

Please explain how Geoffrey is Doritos if he can kill most enemies without it, unless you think the Brave Lance is a basic weapon.

One unit that's easily ORKOd with 39% true as opposed to multiple units with 92.2% true (or around 70% for the archers)? There's obviously a big difference in the amount of work we have to do to keep Marcia safe as opposed to Kieran/Geoffrey. Killing that one Horseslayer guy is much easier than killing the Warriors/Snipers/Archers, and the Horseslayer guy will more than likely miss even if he does attack a mounted unit (the hit goes down even more if they're on a thicket for example). Acting like Bows/Bowguns and the Horseslayer are equal threats is completely retarded.

I didn't say they were equal, I said it's still a threat. The only real problem Marcia has is the Bowgun Warriors since the Snipers are up where they likely will never get to attack her. Geoffrey can draw them in and he and Kieran can kill them, then Marcia can kill the Horseslayer guy. Moving on.

Her Javelin damage is pretty poor. Marcia is again borderline on the doubling here (and when she does it's things like Knights she barely damages). "Quite helpful" is quite the overstatement. As for the Lethe comparison, Lethe has 2 more Mt at base level than Marcia does with a Javelin. Lethe doubles quite a bit more too (24 compared to 21 AS), so I really don't think we can declare Marcia as quite helpful and Lethe not so.

Wait, why the hell is Marcia using a Javelin? The girl has Canto, she can fly down and fly back up. There are Snipers down there, so she wouldn't want to attack with a Javelin anyway.

and we may very well be 1-2 turning 2-E.

I don't like sounding biased, but you've got a problem here. This is not the tier list. "We" do not exist. I don't agree with 1-2 turning 2-E (And neither does the tier list for that matter. It's only a benefit for those who can do it but it doesn't negatively affect those that can't), so that's not happening in my rating topic.

Still over less than half the map, even at 22 AS. It's not like she's ORKOing when she doubles either, except on Sages/Bishops. Even if she's 2RKOing, this barely helps the team. Considering she's going to want to stick to one range to have any semblance of damage output, she's going to be taking counters, and with her poor durability, that means required healing. The GMs should be mostly tier 3 this point, so Marcia chipping enemies they could ORKO anyway isn't very helpful.

Mostly tier 3? Sure, if Gatrie, Haar, and Titania are "most" of the team. Most everyone who doesn't get Crowned won't promote until about 3-E, maybe 4-P/1/2. And yes, she's not amazing, but she's still relatively decent.

If we're using Kieran, we're also feeding him kills, which means his level could conceivably be higher as well. It's also easier to do, since Kieran requires less damage to be done to the enemy first.

Of course he can be fed kills, but he's also already a higher level. I gave him 2.5 levels and Marcia a little less than 4 as a result.

I have no clue where you get the idea that Marcia is level 8 minimum (if you're implying she's going to be more than that, lol @ you). She's fighting almost all unpromoted enemies for 2-P and 2-3 (and we don't want to kill too many 2-3 enemies), and f she's fighting promoted enemies she struggles. Plus, she'll gain almost no Exp for 2-E if we 1-2 turn it, which is a distinct possibility.

About half a level from 2-P. One to 1 1/2 from 2-3. 1-2 from 2-E. That's level 8-9. That's easy, and pacifist route on 2-3 is not always the best idea. I, at least, don't like to assume that.

A 2 point gap between Marcia and Geoffrey is still a pretty huge error.

No, it isn't. If you think it is, make your own rating topic.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't like sounding biased, but you've got a problem here. This is not the tier list. "We" do not exist. I don't agree with 1-2 turning 2-E (And neither does the tier list for that matter. It's only a benefit for those who can do it but it doesn't negatively affect those that can't), so that's not happening in my rating topic.

No, it isn't. If you think it is, make your own rating topic.

Does anybody else hear the sound of a foot being "put down"?

(I'm in favour of this, by the way, RFoF)

[Ardan]

RED FOX OF FIRE SHALL NOT MOVE!

[Naglfar]

RED FOX OF FIRE SHALL NOT MOVE!

This.

Fox is like those noobs who refuse to budge on their opinions. Only she SHALL NOT MOVE because her conclusions are drawn by fact and are very hard to discredit, and is therefore justified and not really like those noobs at all.

'Sides, 1-2 turning 2-E is for low-turn playthroughs, and while the idea of efficiency is to get the game done quickly and cleanly, cutting off 13-14 turns of experience and items such as a dracoshield is of questionable merit, as far as I can see.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Naglfar

[-Cynthia-]

Fox is like those noobs who refuse to budge on their opinions. Only she SHALL NOT MOVE because her conclusions are drawn by fact and are very hard to discredit, and is therefore justified and not really like those noobs at all.

'Sides, 1-2 turning 2-E is for low-turn playthroughs, and while the idea of efficiency is to get the game done quickly and cleanly, cutting off 13-14 turns of experience and items such as a dracoshield is of questionable merit, as far as I can see.

It's debatable whether we are or aren't in an efficient runthrough. In general I think we want to cut off as many turns as possible without being ridiculous, does this include getting all the items or not? Note that we can probably get the Energy Drop turn 2, since Calill can double the guy holding it, so we really only lose out on the Dracoshield and Nullify, and getting these items does not require the full amount of turns regardless, so the question is whether we stay for the CEXP of certain units or ending the map earlier. I was bringing it up as a possibility, not an absolute. I guess since it Red Fox' rating topic she can play however she pleases, though this makes discussion rather meaningless anyway as it's her whims rather than attempting to be objective.

Edited December 23, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[nflchamp]

Fox is like those noobs who refuse to budge on their opinions. Only she SHALL NOT MOVE because her conclusions are drawn by fact and are very hard to discredit, and is therefore justified and not really like those noobs at all.

'Sides, 1-2 turning 2-E is for low-turn playthroughs, and while the idea of efficiency is to get the game done quickly and cleanly, cutting off 13-14 turns of experience and items such as a dracoshield is of questionable merit, as far as I can see.

It's debatable whether we are or aren't in an efficient runthrough. In general I think we want to cut off as many turns as possible without being ridiculous, does this include getting all the items or not? Note that we can probably get the Energy Drop turn 2, since Calill can double the guy holding it, so we really only lose out on the Dracoshield and Nullify, and getting these items does not require the full amount of turns regardless, so the question is whether we stay for the CEXP of certain units or ending the map earlier. I was bringing it up as a possibility, not an absolute. I guess since it Red Fox' rating topic she can play however she pleases, though this makes discussion rather meaningless anyway as it's her whims rather than attempting to be objective.

I already brought it up a while ago. It was decided that we're taking max turns even in an efficient playthrough as the extra EXP helps later on. If you want any leeway on that you'll have to present info that says otherwise.