Rate the Unit, Day 5: Bartre

[Elieson]

Sorry for the late post. It's been a long long day, and work didn't let me out even late...extra late.

Thanks again to Dave Strider, my complimentary tally-counter. You rock Dave!

Anyway, rating.

Axe. Lolbase3spd. Roarbase9str. Almost competent growths. Did I mention base3spd? OHKO's Snag to Merlinus for drafts/rushes.

My rating, 2/10

Disclaimer: all ratings should be based on the assumption that the game is being played on only HHM. Also, unit rating is organized based on availability starting at their first available playable chapter.

Current ranks:

Hector-8.3

Matthew-6.3

Oswin-6.7

Serra-6.3

**************EDIT*******************

ALL RATINGS ARE HHM, AS IN LHM/HHM ONLY

Edited December 22, 2011 by Elieson

[Thor Odinson]

I mean come on this guy gets doubled by things that aren't even swordies in FE7, a game not known for its enemy speed.

I guess weakening shit earlygame has its uses if you're not going for lolololMarcusrolling so 2.5/10.

[eclipse]

Uh, he's strong? And he gets Karla? Oh, wait, that's a waste of resources. . .

2/10

[Florete]

ALL RATINGS ARE HHM, AS IN HHM ONLY

I don't get the point of this. Assuming HHM over ENM/EHM/HNM is fine, but LHM is common enough in general discussions (as in it is very often assumed and tiers/etc. usually include it) that I don't understand why it should be excluded completely. If you're going to do that, how come there isn't any actual criteria to judge units on, like efficiency vs ranked?

Either way, a 3/10 for Bartre from me. Comes early and has some possible growth potential, but bases really are bad and said potential isn't really good enough.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Parrhesia]

Kind of abysmal, but I guess he can be salvaged... ? 3/10, I guess.

[Galenforcer]

4/10 to be generous. His base speed makes him wasted potential.

[Elieson]

I don't get the point of this. Assuming HHM over ENM/EHM/HNM is fine, but LHM is common enough in general discussions (as in it is very often assumed and tiers/etc. usually include it) that I don't understand why it should be excluded completely. If you're going to do that, how come there isn't any actual criteria to judge units on, like efficiency vs ranked?

There's Efficiency, ranked, draft, and casual (as the main types of play). My idea here is to create a general "rating" for each unit, for those that aren't die-hard one type of play.

For those who will post information regarding how Y unit is better for Z run, that information likely influences their decision of a ranking, and will likely include it in their post for validation purposes. That's all this is, really.

Also. Isn't this technically the most challenging mode there is, in general?

Edited December 22, 2011 by Elieson

[Thor Odinson]

I agree with the inclusion of LHM, since LHM does not exclude HHM but merely preceed it in the same playthrough, and it gives huge benefits to certain characters. For example Sain or Kent can potentially become Marcuslite coming out of Lyn mode promoted, and even if you don't Sain/Kentskip they could still get pretty good level leads out of it. However, they aren't as good if only HHM and no LHM is assumed. Lucius is fewer levels away from promotion aka auto C staves, etc.

LHM's purpose is just to really help some units along in HHM. It's not like if you play LHM you can't play HHM with the same units you just used. It's pretty much one single playthrough.

Hell, in tier debates, isn't Sainskip Lyn mode usually assumed?

Edited December 22, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[Florete]

There's Efficiency, ranked, draft, and casual (as the main types of play). My idea here is to create a general "rating" for each unit, for those that aren't die-hard one type of play.

Then....why forcibly exclude LHM? I always play through it and I'm pretty sure lots of others do, too. And it can go either way; you can judge units with LHM in mind but knowing it might be skipped. Most units don't get such a major increase from LHM such that it drastically changes their score in the end.

Also. Isn't this technically the most challenging mode there is, in general?

Yes. What does that have to do with it? Because LHM makes things easier? Well there are a bunch of arbitrary ways to make the game harder on yourself, including but not limited to restricting use of Marcus.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

I'd give Bartre a 2/10. He's just way to easily doubled in HHM, and I don't think he ever doubles except for things like steel lance pegasi. Because of this, he actually does less damage to many units despite his gonzo STR.

EDIT: I also vote to include LHM.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Epic Fail]

He might have a 40% speed growth, but he has the same speed base as WENDY. 2.5/10, he is salvageable, but it takes too much effort, besides, you can use Geitz and Hawkeye.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Epic Fail

[Vorena]

For the time being, Bartre isn't in LHM.

3.5/10

There is nothing to say about him other than helps in the first 3 chapters of the game once you get him.

[Shadow Mir]

2/10. Easily doubled, and can't double much that isn't steel lance pegs and knights (AKA, the crap the entire cast doubles).

[Bluedoom]

4/10 He's not THAT bad, is he? Well he probably won't make it past Chapter 15 anyways.

[Bryan]

I'd give him a 3/10.

I'd also like to argue for the inclusion of LHM. You get so much out of it for nothing. Why skip it?

[Bluedoom]

...To make it harder? To actually play without having the buffed up characters?

But I do agree, it also has a real bad effect not playing it. Basically everyone in LHM would be babies in HHM.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Marth

[Bryan]

...To make it harder? To actually pay without having the buffed up characters?

But I do agree, it also has a real bad effect not playing it. Basically everyone in LHM would be babies in HHM.

Even with my Lyn Favoritism, I had a hard time when I tried not playing through LHM first. She's so frail without those couple of levels from LHM.

[Bluedoom]

Exactly the problem with LHM- with it, your Lyn can become overpowered when she returns or you get an extra paladin. Without it, Lyn is OHKO'd by enemies and the Cavaliers are nothing compared to Lowen. Wil's still better than rebecca though, and Serra suddenly isn't that good anymore(I don't know how you find her good, she's never going to compare, ever. Same with Florina)

I guess its alight if you play LHM and the count the char contributions only in HHM. Because counting the contributions in LHM is just stupid.

I vouch for voting for two seperate ratings: One including LHM and one not including it.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Marth

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Exactly the problem with LHM- with it, your Lyn can become overpowered when she returns or you get an extra paladin. Without it, Lyn is OHKO'd by enemies and the Cavaliers are nothing compared to Lowen. Wil's still better than rebecca though, and Serra suddenly isn't that good anymore(I don't know how you find her good, she's never going to compare, ever. Same with Florina)

I guess its alight if you play LHM and the count the char contributions only in HHM. Because counting the contributions in LHM is just stupid.

I vouch for voting for two seperate ratings: One including LHM and one not including it.

Why don't we just assume S rank LHM, like they do in recent S rank HHM logs? It allows you to make LHM units not suck (it completely changes the dynamic of Serra v. Prissy, makes Wil way worse, allows Lowen to outclass the Sacaen cavs) while making significant abuse almost impossible.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Shadow Mir]

Exactly the problem with LHM- with it, your Lyn can become overpowered when she returns or you get an extra paladin. Without it, Lyn is OHKO'd by enemies and the Cavaliers are nothing compared to Lowen. Wil's still better than rebecca though, and Serra suddenly isn't that good anymore(I don't know how you find her good, she's never going to compare, ever. Same with Florina)

I guess its alight if you play LHM and the count the char contributions only in HHM. Because counting the contributions in LHM is just stupid.

I vouch for voting for two seperate ratings: One including LHM and one not including it.

Indeed LHM can have profound effects on the characters in it, but I disagree on Wil being better even without Lyn mode. In fact, I'd argue to the contrary - he'd need it just to have a chance to outclass Rebecca...

Edited December 22, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Elieson]

well then if consensus agrees (and so far it is), then we'll continue and assume LHM/HHM is the playthrough mode.

[Florete]

Why don't we just assume S rank LHM, like they do in recent S rank HHM logs?

>While it allows it, the topic does not assume S ranking anything.

>There are easy ways to avoid abuse without saying it needs to be S ranked.

[Bluedoom]

I think Wil's still better if only because beccy has a hard time actually getting the exp. Wil will most likely come with a level lead and does more damage- its unlikely that Rebeca will develop the speed to double the enemies by then, and even if she did shed probably not do a lot.

I guess that's irrevelant, because I find both of them absurdly hard to train and use. Beccy has better use lategame however.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

>While it allows it, the topic does not assume S ranking anything.

>There are easy ways to avoid abuse without saying it needs to be S ranked.

First point is true.

Second point...just say one statbooster only and no Lungdren abuse (which, unless you're really mediocre, practically guarantees S rank)?

EDIT: LHM is one of Wil's advantages over Beccy and allows him to compete with her. His midgame tends to lag behind her, although I slightly prefer his late-game since he doubles reliably then and has better HP, DEF, and STR than Beccy (although she wins in AVO).

Edited December 22, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Florete]

Second point...just say one statbooster only and no Lungdren abuse (which, unless you're really mediocre, practically guarantees S rank)?

S rank means you can't concentrate experience into fewer units as easily and allows you to go much slower (possibly to the point of being able to abuse) because LHM Tactics is so lenient. Sure, you can base your rating on it if you want, but it doesn't need to be a rule. The rest of the rules for this are lenient anyway that if someone is going to use abuse in LHM, they can do the same for HHM.