Rate the Unit, Day 12: Erk

[grandjackal]

Erk has the worst luck on the planet. Stuck with Serra almost indefinitely, and in FE7, a game with 2 other completely viable mages that show up almost immediately around the time you get your first guiding ring to compete with, Erk gettng the short end of the stick. Thing is, Erk isn't even that bad. His start is pretty good (assuming Lyn mode), he's very helpful for the first few chapters he's around, but then 3 other factors come in. 1. Maps past Talons Alight start to become bigger. 2. You immediately get a whole ton of good mounted units in one single chapter, and 3. The other two mages I mentioned. Let's compare.

12/1 Erk: 28 HP, 10 Mag, 10 Skl, 12 or 13 Spd, 6 Lck, 7 Def, 11 Res

10/1 Canas: 26 HP, 11 Mag, 10 Skl, 12 Spd, 7 or 8 Luck, 7 or 8 Def, 11 Res

10/1 Lucius: 24 HP, 13 Mag, 10 or 11 Skl, 13 Spd, 3 Lck, 5 Def, 12 Res

Canas requires the least amount of exp to get the best offensive results with Flux (even beating Lucius unless he has Shine), and Lucius has auto-C staff. Erk gets...Dick all for all you invested into him. This raises the problem, why pump a lot into him when you can get more for less out of 2 other characters?

Basically just give him enough that he'll be good in the few chapters he starts off in, then bench him for better. He'll at least be pretty good help during that small time. As said, he's not bad. Just unlucky.

5/10

Edited December 31, 2011 by grandjackal

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

but then 2 other factors come in.

1.

2.

and 3.

Don't worry, I've almost done this too.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Raven]

So uh, ignoring the Raven-Guy debate (which I've been involved with in the past more than enough thanks), here's my reasoning for Erk:

He joins relatively early. He provides the first available magic offence and provides it quite well. Decent growths where it matters (40 str, 50 spd, 40 res).

He is very frail though. Much like Rebecca, he should be kept behind offensive melee units, regardless of his 1-range capabilities.

He stays pretty consistent through the game, but doesn't become anything amazing.

Raven's rating: 60%

[whase]

Erk is very average. if you want an early anima user, he's your only choice.

and since Nino is kind of out of reach to train on HHM. it's either Erk or Saleh if you want a sage.

stave rank is never very important to me, I never use physic either way.

6

[MacLovin]

6.5-7

A little above average.

Nothing special, he is worth training, and I think that lhm energy drop may be a decent investment for him...

Also, is there anything wrong with using BOTH pent and erk lategame??

Because Erk becomes a faster pent, with lest staff rank.

(I think)

And Raven>Guy.

Hand Axes>anything a SM can do.

Unless this is fe6........

Where we get 30% critical after promo....

And then, hand axes are still better.

[Bluedoom]

Erk is very average. if you want an early anima user, he's your only choice.

and since Nino is kind of out of reach to train on HHM. it's either Erk or Saleh if you want a sage.

stave rank is never very important to me, I never use physic either way.

6

You mean Pent.

[Excellen Browning]

Erk has the worst luck on the planet. Stuck with Serra almost indefinitely, and in FE7, a game with 2 other completely viable mages that show up almost immediately around the time you get your first guiding ring to compete with, Erk gettng the short end of the stick. Thing is, Erk isn't even that bad. His start is pretty good (assuming Lyn mode), he's very helpful for the first few chapters he's around, but then 3 other factors come in. 1. Maps past Talons Alight start to become bigger. 2. You immediately get a whole ton of good mounted units in one single chapter, and 3. The other two mages I mentioned. Let's compare.

12/1 Erk: 28 HP, 10 Mag, 10 Skl, 12 or 13 Spd, 6 Lck, 7 Def, 11 Res

10/1 Canas: 26 HP, 11 Mag, 10 Skl, 12 Spd, 7 or 8 Luck, 7 or 8 Def, 11 Res

10/1 Lucius: 24 HP, 13 Mag, 10 or 11 Skl, 13 Spd, 3 Lck, 5 Def, 12 Res

Canas requires the least amount of exp to get the best offensive results with Flux (even beating Lucius unless he has Shine), and Lucius has auto-C staff. Erk gets...Dick all for all you invested into him. This raises the problem, why pump a lot into him when you can get more for less out of 2 other characters?

Basically just give him enough that he'll be good in the few chapters he starts off in, then bench him for better. He'll at least be pretty good help during that small time. As said, he's not bad. Just unlucky.

5/10

Don't forget Canas gets weighed down by his tomes more than the other two do. AKA while he might hit the hardest per shot it's unlikely he'll hit the hardest per round.

[Mekkah]

Erk has...issues, I guess. He's purely outclassed by Nino and Pent stat-wise and offensively crushed by Lucius

The facepalm is strong in this one.

[Esaka]

7.5/10

I should of rated Guy lower, he's way better then Guy but I don't think he deserves an 8.

[Titamon]

7.0/10

Erk is fine, I don't get the hate

Also Elfire doesn't show up until you get Pent so whatever AS issues Erk has with can easily be solved by then

[Elieson]

Erk is fine, I don't get the hate

Its not that there is Erk hate, there just isn't an overwhelming amount of Erk love, (at least in my eyes).

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

The facepalm is strong in this one.

Yes, stating easily provable facts is so facepalm now. Erk IS crushed stat-wise by Nino (which is the only reason why a person could ever justify bothering with her in a non-HHM mode) and Pent (Pent and Erk are practically equal at 20/20, and Pent has insane bases and crap growths, so he's better than Erk at every level until then), and Erk loses in MAG growth/base to Lucius and doesn't equal Lucius' SPD until around 20/5, which is roughly the level many characters arrive at Final (btw, at this point Lucius has a 6 MAG lead).

EDIT: As for dark tomes weighing down, Canas loses no AS from Flux on promotion just as Erk loses no AS from Thunder. Thunder has 1 more MT than Flux, but 10/-- Canas has 1 more MAG than 12/-- Erk. So they end up with the same ATK and roughly the same AS, except Canas does it 2 levels earlier than Erk does. Then there's the fact that Erk can't double with Elfire until a rather high level, which he won't commonly reach before Pent replaces him, and at least the tomes that Canas won't commonly double with (Nosferatu and Luna) are pretty beastly on their own right. I think that's where that comment comes from. I mean, I think it is fair to note that Canas' SPD growth is notably less than Erk's, but there shouldn't be that many enemies that Canas won't double that Erk will later on.

EDIT2: It's not that I "hate" Erk, it's just that he's in a unique position where one of the best characters in the game ends up outcompeting him in every way AND faces competition from a character with great combat and possible physic use (Lucius) and an Est, provided the player is crazy enough to even try that in HHM. Growth wise, he's actually one of the better characters -- he has good to decent growths where it matters.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[riariadne]

6.5-7

which one

Erk has pretty nice offense and can stay pretty consistent with said offense, which is good. His durability is bad, so he can't exactly be thrown into a crowd reliably, but otherwise he's fine. 7

[frat_tastic]

Nino won't ever crush Erk in stats, unless you're playing to specifically catch her up in level to the rest of the team, which is beyond anything even remotely efficient.

Lucius has higher MAG sure, but he also has to deal with tomes that are weaker. And heavier, so if he wants to use anything stronger than Lightning (with its whopping 4 MT) he has to move up to Shine, which he loses AS from, and even then its got 2 less MT than Thunder. Offensively, there's not a major difference between Lucius and Erk.

EDIT: Also, get over this weird thing you have about Erk using Elfire. Elfire sucks, it only gives Erk 2 more MT than Thunder, but weighs him down by like 4. It's not even worth mentioning.

Really, Lucius's only real benefit over Erk is his auto-C staves. If you're gonna say Lucius is better, at least give good reasons why he's better.

Also, 7/10 for Erk.

Edited December 31, 2011 by frat_tastic

[Thor Odinson]

And Raven>Guy.

Hand Axes>anything a SM can do.

Unless this is fe6........

Where we get 30% critical after promo....

And then, hand axes are still better.

While I definitely support Raven>Guy, I'd say the 30 crit is better than handaxes in FE6 since FE6 has ass enough hitrates as it is with regular axes, even Dieck or Echidna can have hit issues with Hand Axe and they're some of the higher skilled axe users. In FE7, axes got more hit and enemies dropped more avo, so hitrates are a nonissue. The bosses are far harder to kill in FE6 thanks to better stats overall and ridiculous throne bonuses, so the 30% Crit actually does help a lot, and it gets pretty reliable with killing edge (which can be bought in mass pretty early on, 13 IIRC if not earlier). FE7 bosses are a lot easier to deal with as a whole, and "charge Marcus with Silver Axe, watch boss die" usually does the trick that there's no need for high crit bosskiller as Marcus does it better, more reliably, and faster.

It just sucks to be a Swordmaster in 7.

[PKL]

Pent exists. 1/10

Ok, now seriously...he has Lyn mode for a bit of training and hes got decent availability. Has decent speed growth and hits RES. 5/10

[Mekkah]

Yes, stating easily provable facts is so facepalm now. Erk IS crushed stat-wise by Nino

15/0 Erk: 26.1 hp, 10.6 mag, 11.6 skl, 14 spd, 7.2 luk, 4.8 def, 9.6 res

5/0 Nino: 19 hp, 7 mag, 8 skl, 11 spd, 10 luk, 4 def, 7 res

Underleveled Erk crushing base Nino. The mere fact that Nino has to play catch-up shows that Nino is not doing any crushing of any unit whatsoever.

Pent, sure, but only when Pent is actually available, and even then they're quite close and it doesn't matter which of them you crush mooks with.

20/1 Erk: 33.35 hp, 13.6 str, 13.6 skl, 16.5 spd, 8.7 luk, 8.8 def, 14.6 res

--/6 Pent: 33 hp, 18 str, 21 skl, 17 spd, 14 luk, 11 def, 16 res

The 4.4 atk lead is great on paper, but Erk still reaches 21.6 atk with Thunder. This is enough for the wyverns in their joining chapter, for instance, or any unpromoted enemy. There's promoted enemies as well, but surprisingly, Pent doesn't ORKO those either. PFOD Sniper has 38 HP/9 Res for instance, which Pent's 26 Atk with Thunder isn't sufficient for. He could use Elfire for that, I guess. But the General with 45 HP/11 Res? Nope. Hero with 46 HP/7 Res and 17 Spd? Nope. Swordmaster with 39 HP/9 Res/19 Spd? Nope.

Pent is better by A staves alone, but there's no crushing being done here stat-wise.

and Erk loses in MAG growth/base to Lucius and doesn't equal Lucius' SPD until around 20/5, which is roughly the level many characters arrive at Final (btw, at this point Lucius has a 6 MAG lead).

Erk also has a level lead on Lucius. He has two Lyn Mode and four Hector Mode chapters versus Lucius's 2 level lead. They are pretty much tied in offensive combat parameters for most of their existence, simply because of how much Light tomes suck. As for that 6 Mag lead Lucius has, look how much that slight Atk lead does for Pent, and now imagine that Lucius has terrible options for upgrading his Atk through better tomes.

I like his personality, but I'm rating the unit, not the character, so I think a fair rating is 5.5/10. I'd honestly pick Beccy 90% of the time over him.

I take it your version of the game only has enemy pegasi with Javelins that always attack at range.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Nino won't ever crush Erk in stats, unless you're playing to specifically catch her up in level to the rest of the team, which is beyond anything even remotely efficient.

I implied most people wouldn't do it in HHM (the whole "supposing your crazy enough to do it" being the key phrase here), but the option is still there.

Lucius has higher MAG sure, but he also has to deal with tomes that are weaker. And heavier, so if he wants to use anything stronger than Lightning (with its whopping 4 MT) he has to move up to Shine, which he loses AS from, and even then its got 2 less MT than Thunder. Offensively, there's not a major difference between Lucius and Erk.

Alright, let me crunch the numbers and see for pre-promo (10/-- to pick a random level):

Lucius - 15 ATK, 13 AS (Lightning); 17 ATK, 11 AS (Shine)

Erk - 14 ATK, 11.5 AS (Fire); 17 ATK, 10.5 AS (Thunder)

Alright, yeah. Lucius is slightly better with Lightning, and both are roughly equal with heavy tomes.

Post-promo, S rank run (20/1):

Lucius - 23 ATK, 17 AS (Lightning); 25 ATK, 16 AS (Shine)

Erk - 19 ATK, 17 AS (Fire); 22 ATK, 17 AS (Thunder)

Lucius does better here. Still has a 4 ATK lead with same AS, and has 3 ATK more with heavy tomes (with a 1 AS loss, but 16-17 AS doubles practically everything until Final, IIRC).

So I forgot how crap FE7 Light tomes were, but Lucius still holds an offensive edge over Erk that actually widens over time (we're talking about 6-8 damage per round here post-promo); early-mid-game, Lucius gets WTA in Pirate Ship, but gets WTD in Imprisoner of Magic (but the magic seal makes fielding either of them somewhat of a poor decision). Late-game, I'm pretty sure shamans and druids become extremely common, so Lucius gets WTA and Erk gets WTD, widening the damage per round gap to 10-12 damage against those enemies.

Crappy light tomes make the offensive loss later on "significant" later than "crushing", I suppose.

EDIT: Also, get over this weird thing you have about Erk using Elfire. Elfire sucks, it only gives Erk 2 more MT than Thunder, but weighs him down by like 4. It's not even worth mentioning.

Really, Lucius's only real benefit over Erk is his auto-C staves. If you're gonna say Lucius is better, at least give good reasons why he's better.

I specifically defended my statement that Lucius was better offensively than Erk. Didn't I mention the whole benefit of C-staves in another post, stating that it gives Lucius the option to use physic late-game whereas Erk can't? If not, I meant to.

P.S.:

20/1 Erk: 33.35 hp, 13.6 str, 13.6 skl, 16.5 spd, 8.7 luk, 8.8 def, 14.6 res

--/6 Pent: 33 hp, 18 str, 21 skl, 17 spd, 14 luk, 11 def, 16 res

1. In (my) S rank runs, Serra is the only one usually hitting 20/1 on the chapter Pent joins...MAYBE my first or second best combat non-lord units. Usually Erk would be closer to 18/-- or 19/--, but it's not that big of a difference.

2. You don't see a 4 MAG, 7 SKL, 5 LUK, 2 DEF, and 1.5 RES under the best of circumstances for Erk as rather significant? Which would be bad enough if Pent didn't have an amazing staff rank to rub in Erk's face. Or Lucius have better offense and a fair shot of hitting physic by end-game, whereas Erk realistically is getting Mend at best.

3. My rating for Erk falls in the 5-7 range most people have been giving him. I mean, it's not like I'm even giving him an abnormal rating, so it seems funny we're arguing this much when (I think) we agree Lucius > Erk, if not for promo staff bonus alone on Lucius' end.

4. Mekkah, you didn't rate Erk yet (or I skipped over yours). Just wanted to make sure your opinion was heard on this.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Swordsalmon]

Erk is pretty decent, nice damage early on, decent supports. 7/10

[Smiley Jim]

Erk is just like Guy: Starts out good, but ends up getting outclassed.

Erk's earlygame offense isn't stupidly good like Guy's, but he's still better off than the likes of Barf-tray and lol-becca. A Lv5 Erk going into Chapter 14 has 7mag/9spd for offense parameters, which actually doesn't let him double a lot of stuff(he'll get knights and things like steel axe fighters, though 8 AS with Thunder doesn't do a guy much in the way of favors), but has 15 atk with Thunder, allowing him to 2HKO almost anything that isn't a mage or a boss(bosses like having high res in this game). Considering the only people with better offense than this are Guy and Marcus, this is pretty good. His durability could use some work though; 21HP/3def is about the same as Serra at this level, though he doesn't take counters, and 5/0 Erk has 6 res, which gets him 5HKO'd by mages, so all is good. His growths are decidedly average though; 50% speed is his only really above average growth, with only average growths in magic and skill(40 apiece), and a fucking abysmal 20% def growth. At least he has a 65% HP growth, so I guess his HP can be good at higher levels.

Even though he does have some uniqueness as a unit for his first 3 HHM maps, Lucius joins only four maps after him, and Canas joins in the following gaiden, and both have qualities that put Erk's to shame. Against a 6/0 Lucius w/ Lightning, 7/0 Erk with Thunder has +2 atk, but -2 AS, and while Erk is winning durability by 1 HP and 3 def, neither should take a counter anyway. Oh, and Trap gets C staves on promotion, while Erk is stuck with E, so I guess Trap wins this round. And against base Canas, 8/0 Erk is winning AS by 3, but loses atk by 1, so I guess Erk wins here... for now, and Canas wins durability, I guess? Though, to be fair, Canas is a better boss killer than Erk will ever be thanks to Luna. However, the biggest killer to Erk's usefulness shows up in UH, when Pent joins. Comparison tiem!

20/6 Erk

37HP/16Mag/16Skl/19Spd/10Lck/10Def/17Res - Priscilla A

--/6 Pent

33HP/18Mag/21Skl/17Spd/14Lck/11Def/16Res - Louise A

Note that I'm exaggerating Erk's level here, and this support will never happen in efficiency, but you can clearly see that a bases unit is beating a so-called growth unit in stats at equal levels. Erk has a +2 spd lead, which is superfluous considering Pent doubles the same shit, but for +2 damage(+4 after doubling). While Erk barely wins durability without supports, Pent's supports give him the win in that department, and remember that Erk is not getting this kind of support by Chapter 26. Oh, and Pent has A level staves meaning he can use, I dunno, WARP. Erk would need to blow through 3 whole heal staves(heal gives 2 wexp) in order to reach this. And even better, Pent doesn't need to steal a guiding ring better used on, say, Lucius.

Basically, he's not really worth using past the earlygame and perhaps early midgame.

5.5

Edited December 31, 2011 by darkandroid125

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Despite Erk being your only Anima user until either Pent is recruited or Priscilla promotes, he has many issues. His stats and growths are mediocre to decent, he has good supports but most of his support partners have better people to support (Serra has Oswin, Matthew, and Hector; Priscilla has Raven, Guy, and Sain; Pent and Louise can only give him B supports; and Nino, if used, will probably have Jaffar and Canas). Stat wise, Pent immediately outclasses him (and doesn't need Support Grinding), and Nino, if trained, will outclass him as well. Priscilla upon promotion also outclasses Erk. He's good for earlygame use but once you get better units he's easily droppable.

4.5/10

[Loki Laufeyson]

Erkle. Lyn mode is a boon to this guy. If you didnt train him there, its not really worth using him. However, if you did, he can promote as early as that pirate ship level.

Pros:

An early joining anima user.

His supports are decent.

Possible early promotion.

Staff use upon promotion.

Not a terrible speed growth.

Cons:

Pent happens.

Without Lyn mode, he can smell pretty bad.

Mag growth isnt anything to write home about.

Theres other magic users like Lucius around to fight over the Guilding Rings.

E rank in staves.

i give him 6/10. (8/10 personal bias. I really like him. If i want an anima user and im using Serra instead of Priscilla, i use Erk.)

[Bluedoom]

Erk's definetly outclassed by Lucius statistically, I don't disagree with that since Lucius is loads better.

But Pent beats Erk by just staves really. If Erk like had D staves or even C staves, Pent would certainly not be better than Erk(since you'd want to continue with a unit who'll eventually have better stats.)

Even comparing base stats, 8 Skl does not really matter a lot. You're gonna hit your enemies most of the time. If anything, + 3 def and +4 Mag are the only notable leads, and you do realize Pent has a lvl lead on Erk, si? Over time Erk does beat Pent pretty easily.

@darkandroid: Canas is good and all, but I don't think he really beats Erk in stats. First off, anything higher than flux weighs him down, until promotion where Luna doesn't give him an AS loss I believe. Then you also forget that Dark magic is more inacurate, which on its own is a bit annoying. Terrain advantage is just bad fror Dark Magic users. Then we have the fact that Canas will always be slower than Erk and Lucius, and he'll not get out of this rut for quite sometime, even with early promotion. To top that off, he's not very consistent in boss killing- he NEEDS Luna, which is much more inaccurate than flux and that hurts because Bosses usually have stats or terrain that help them dodge stuff. Then you NEED to get that critical. Compared to Erk and Lucius who will eventually double bosses and do better in general, Canas isn't winning offensively. If anything, he wins on both defensively...until the Final chapter when Luna suddenly becomes awesome.

[Peppy]

Look who we have here, Mediocre Erk...

His Bases suck and his Magic growth doesn't save his potential at all. His other growths may be okay and all (Luck is abysmal too) but there are better out there.

He gets in the way of the Potential of Lucius, who is an awesome light magic user (and Much better than Erk) in Lyn Mode if you used Erk in Lyn Mode. I don't really mind going through a lot of the game without anima. Nino is much better, who is hard to train but at least comes in not too late. Even if you don't like Nino, Pent says Hi! Point is, He is okay but there are better out there, Much Better!

I will give him... 3.510

[Smiley Jim]

Erk's definetly outclassed by Lucius statistically, I don't disagree with that since Lucius is loads better.

But Pent beats Erk by just staves really. If Erk like had D staves or even C staves, Pent would certainly not be better than Erk(since you'd want to continue with a unit who'll eventually have better stats.)

Even comparing base stats, 8 Skl does not really matter a lot. You're gonna hit your enemies most of the time. If anything, + 3 def and +4 Mag are the only notable leads, and you do realize Pent has a lvl lead on Erk, si? Over time Erk does beat Pent pretty easily.

@darkandroid: Canas is good and all, but I don't think he really beats Erk in stats. First off, anything higher than flux weighs him down, until promotion where Luna doesn't give him an AS loss I believe. Then you also forget that Dark magic is more inacurate, which on its own is a bit annoying. Terrain advantage is just bad fror Dark Magic users. Then we have the fact that Canas will always be slower than Erk and Lucius, and he'll not get out of this rut for quite sometime, even with early promotion. To top that off, he's not very consistent in boss killing- he NEEDS Luna, which is much more inaccurate than flux and that hurts because Bosses usually have stats or terrain that help them dodge stuff. Then you NEED to get that critical. Compared to Erk and Lucius who will eventually double bosses and do better in general, Canas isn't winning offensively. If anything, he wins on both defensively...until the Final chapter when Luna suddenly becomes awesome.

Alright, firstly, Luna is NOT less accurate than Flux. In fact, Luna has FIFTEEN more hit than Flux, which has 80% to begin with. Dark magic may be less accurate than anima/lite, but Flux and especially Luna are NOT inaccurate. Oh, and enemy avoid is jack awful in FE7(enemy avoid rarely rises above 20 except on fast things. And remember that Luna has NINETY-FIVE hit, so I'm able to hit most bosses anyway), so Canas is hitting consistently, but I'll save that for RtU: day 20.

Secondly, about Erk being better than Pent. That shit only happens at 20/20, a level that Erk isn't realistically reaching ever. If anything, Erk is going to be more like 15/12 by endgame, where he's basically inferior to Pent. And again, Pent didn't need to gain 19 levels(a lot of commitment for an average rated unpromoted non-lord unit), a guiding ring(better used on Trap or Canas), 90 heal uses(a complete waste of fucking time), or 75 turns of support grinding(another complete waste of fucking time)to get to where he is. He does this for free without any of the babying or grinding crap you have to do with Erk. Oh, and Pent's stats can't be fucked by the RNG, as they are good to start with. You can argue with me, but you can't argue with facts.

Edited January 1, 2012 by darkandroid125