Kirby Mafia - Game Over

[Prims]

Shin has been prodded.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Instead of content, you get excuses!

Between work and sleep and other important stuff, I have like a 5 hour window every weekday to post, so that's going to cut into contributing. Additionally, in the past I feel like I spent too much time forcing reads when I didn't have any (a lot of the text just goes through one eye and out the other), and this time I don't want to waste that effort, so HAPPY DAYS FOR EVERYONE.

But actually, since contributing is important, I agree that Shinori's attack on BBM was too convictive with that level of evidence and so will keep my vote there. His most recent post kind of contradicts this too, as he's arguing about it kind of trivially and has switched votes. The other things that stand out are that I'm leaning town on Refa (I think) due to that suboptimal game theorying, which I always have a hard time believing is something scum does. Then again, I think Jalmont is doing that too, and I actually have no idea how to judge him now, mostly because I can't read. I've seen scum do what Objection! did and have done it myself as town, and it's a good idea because it works. IIRC BBM snapped into action because of Shinori but has since quieted down, which I at least remember. PB reads as chill. Everyone else I don't recognize as having posted.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Oh yeah, I don't like Grassbridger's vote on me because I don't like it.

[Jalmont]

Uh, Jalmont, while I do think that Shin needs to post opinions and be more noticeable (along with a couple other people), it doesn't take four paragraphs and a few stand-alone sentences to build a case on him. Most of your ~words~ were an explanation of the "archetype" of how NOC is played. I think we all know how NOC is played and stuff, you don't have to repeat it back to us and "tell us how it is". It doesn't contribute, fluffs up your post, makes it look like you're posting a lot of content when you're not, and makes actually relevant things easier to miss.

Okay, so, you think Shin is scum. You gave passing opinions on scorri and me but nothing too committal. If no one else is feeling a Shin lynch, who ELSE would you be willing to lynch?

You obviously "know" how NOC is played here. Unfortunately, there are more ways to play than just one (hard to believe right!). I am not discussing how NOC is played, I am discussing how the majority of people play NOC here and how that fits into my reasoning. I am not sure if you are just misunderstanding what I am attempting to convey, you don't want to, or you are so stuck to how you play that you simply cannot comprehend the angle I am coming from. Your insistence on what I am doing wrong pretty much backs up my point and has pretty much convinced me I am right.

Maybe what I am doing is pointing out more of a fundamental flaw in how you are playing? My sense is sort of leans that way, but I'm not sure. I'm feeling fairly neutral on you right now until you figure out what I'm trying to say.

Grassbridger / Kay / Kirsche seem to be sliding by maybe essbee maybe paperblade i feel something is off with their "voice" as in it doesn't sound real but that's more of a gut thing than anything and I am not sure i would support those two lynch (i just don't know).

I think Weapons is actually busy and I don;t know it seems like people are also trying to take advantage of that ? I DK

If you miss "relevant" things that is your fault for not reading closely enough. I did not include anything in there for the purpose of "fluff" believe me I have plenty of shit to do without that.

[Sunwoo]

You obviously "know" how NOC is played here. Unfortunately, there are more ways to play than just one (hard to believe right!). I am not discussing how NOC is played, I am discussing how the majority of people play NOC here and how that fits into my reasoning. I am not sure if you are just misunderstanding what I am attempting to convey, you don't want to, or you are so stuck to how you play that you simply cannot comprehend the angle I am coming from. Your insistence on what I am doing wrong pretty much backs up my point and has pretty much convinced me I am right.

Maybe what I am doing is pointing out more of a fundamental flaw in how you are playing? My sense is sort of leans that way, but I'm not sure. I'm feeling fairly neutral on you right now until you figure out what I'm trying to say.

Grassbridger / Kay / Kirsche seem to be sliding by maybe essbee maybe paperblade i feel something is off with their "voice" as in it doesn't sound real but that's more of a gut thing than anything and I am not sure i would support those two lynch (i just don't know).

I think Weapons is actually busy and I don;t know it seems like people are also trying to take advantage of that ? I DK

If you miss "relevant" things that is your fault for not reading closely enough. I did not include anything in there for the purpose of "fluff" believe me I have plenty of shit to do without that.

Talking about "fundamental flaws in how people are playing" doesn't catch scum. Nor will people change their play style because you think it's "flawed" or whatever. I literally have no idea what you're trying to say about me or what I'm "wrong" about. No duh there's more than one way to play NOC. But we don't need a mini-lesson on it. It doesn't get stuff done and I'm pretty sure most people don't care to talk about game theory or the "different ways to play the game".

So ... you ... pretty much don't have a solid opinion on anyone you just posted about except for a gut feeling on SB and Paper? Helpful ;/

@ Other people who are not Jalmont:

Objection, so your reaction test got us out of RVS. But I haven't seen you actually DO anything other than start a reaction test and say, "lol it was a reaction test". What do you have to say about people NOW?

Refa and Shin, we're way out of RVS and apparently have less time in this phase than I thought we did. Do you guys have opinions who do you think is scum?

Paperblade, do you still find Shinori the scummiest, and do you think Jalmont is town or what do you think of him at all?

[Jalmont]

Talking about "fundamental flaws in how people are playing" doesn't catch scum. Nor will people change their play style because you think it's "flawed" or whatever. I literally have no idea what you're trying to say about me or what I'm "wrong" about. No duh there's more than one way to play NOC. But we don't need a mini-lesson on it. It doesn't get stuff done and I'm pretty sure most people don't care to talk about game theory or the "different ways to play the game".

So ... you ... pretty much don't have a solid opinion on anyone you just posted about except for a gut feeling on SB and Paper? Helpful ;/

@ Other people who are not Jalmont:

Objection, so your reaction test got us out of RVS. But I haven't seen you actually DO anything other than start a reaction test and say, "lol it was a reaction test". What do you have to say about people NOW?

Refa and Shin, we're way out of RVS and apparently have less time in this phase than I thought we did. Do you guys have opinions who do you think is scum?

Paperblade, do you still find Shinori the scummiest, and do you think Jalmont is town or what do you think of him at all?

It's too bad I'm inclined to believe you just don't have the capability to understand what I'm saying, and maybe others don't, but I get what I'm saying so I mean yea I guess that's all that really matters. If I felt you were purposely not understanding what I am saying I could put you down as solid scum but OH WELL. Just trying to give you a tidbit into my mind and how I'm approaching this game. I am deeply sorry that you feel I am wasting your time. Maybe I should've bolded it but yes I think scorri is scum because she ( i think?) has done nothing but talk about me, which looking bad, is really the main point of it. dunno.

you obviously do not get what I am saying so unless you ask me specific questions on what you don't get please don't bother responding to anything i say since you are just misrepresenting what i'm getting at. if anyone else finds my "point" by all means, I am completely open to further explaining the angle I am trying to come from.

Yes, it is hard to have "solid" opinions on somebody day 1, it rarely is the case that I have a "solid" opinion, I have guesses which is pretty much what I've said. Sorry I guess that's what happens when you try to approach the game analytically.

[Sunwoo]

Wow, you literally told me to stop responding to you. That's helpful and makes progress.

[Jalmont]

Nope, I said please don't respond unless you actually want to get what I'm trying to say. At this point, all you are doing is taking me out of context to reinforce the point that I am fluffing or something?

If you actually cared to figure out my reasoning and want to comment or object to something, then by all means ask/respond away. If you want to make progress why don't you help me help you and tell me what you don't get?

It feels to me that you do not grasp the point of all that "fluff" but you seem to have moved to the conclusion that it is "fluff" no matter what and refuse to understand it. Fine. Go ahead and do that. But please don't take me out of context to make it seem like there is no point to what I've said. I can't clarify if I do not know what you do not understand.

[Paperblade]

I don't think he's scum atm and I don't feel a need to out if I think he's town or have a neutral read.

I think it's a little odd that kirsche kept his vote on me out of RVS, and then said Cam not doing the same thing is "a little weird," especially since kirsche didn't really justify keeping his vote there.

Not really fond at grassbridger's attempt at meta on BBM either. Also, what's with the switch from jalmont to Weapons? I felt like there's a disjoint between the reason he voted jalmont and the reason he unvoted.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Grassbridger

[scorri]

Ugh, ok. We have less than 16 hours left in this phase. Some things. I'm not pleased with the fact that Cam still has no vote down and hasn't really set down any solid reads. It's really easy to back off a read if you say that it's how you're feeling right now but could change later. I will be looking for scum here tomorrow, since it seems unlikely he'll get lynched today. If that were to change, I would hop right on this lynch.

Still finding Jalmont scummy. The walls of text about how NOC should be/is played aren't changing that. He seems to be trying real hard to contribute without actually committing to anything. Will be leaving my vote here.

Beyond that, I have a bunch of null reads along with a few town ones.

Which brings me to my next thing. I was thinking that the best thing we could do is come up with an agreed upon order of roles given/people the roles are given to from most town to most scummy. Thoughts? That way, it at least somewhat limits what the mafia can do and leaves most of the choosing power in the hands of the general body of the game. Yes, scum will still have some influence, but it will be less.

[Jalmont]

I am now willing to lynch scorri.

#realtalk #hatethegamenottheplayer #lifeonedge #no1leftbehind #mafiasucks #isuk #KONY2012

If i wanted to fit in that would be really easy ? just post opinions on people? right ?

[scorri]

Why do you want to lynch me?

[BBM]

I'm tired and still in a kind of bad mood due to stuff at home but Jalmont's posts are literally tl;dr and while I don't really agree with his analysis of NOC here (if all mafia had to do was post opinions every now and then, they'd win almost every game), I get what he's trying to say. This game has had more votes than normal based on people not posting content, so if one were to base how NOC is normally played solely off this game's D1, I would agree with his theories for the most part. I think he's town personally.

However, basing his entire conception of NOC off one substandard day phase is sort of dumb. Jalmont, if all anyone ever had to do was post opinions, why is Shinori, who has at the very least posted opinions, a leading wagon?

Jalmont, I can't remember whether or not you've explained your thoughts about Shinori, but please do so.

Going to sheep Prims's reasoning from Toonami and say that scum!Cam would BS some vote just to fit in (he has enough content for an okay vote I think). Probably overcautious town.

[Jalmont]

and i was going to go to sleep...

re: scorri

You've talked about nobody but me. You seem to have no interest in anybody else. Yeah, we're running low on time. But you had three days to talk about someone else, and you've pretty much failed to do that. It appears to me you are going for the easy lynch.

re: marshmellow

Damn first it was spam now it's "literally" tl;dr (as opposed to being "metaphorically tl;dr"). what a bunch of hard to please people smh...

You are oversimplifying the point. At the point where everyone is posting opinions, that's when things become fair, especially late game because you can make connections between users. It becomes easier to spot where scum are being inconsistent. The "opinions" thing works in the sense that as soon as everyone gets a couple down, you can spot connections late game. I'm not trying to say "YOUR WAY OF MAFIA SUCKS STOP IT AAAA CONVERT ThE NONBELIEVERS" I am saying that I feel that there are times when the "opinion" thing doesn't work as well as everyone thinks it should, and that's where I see a weakness that can be exploited. Take scorri - stuck in the mindset of "FLUFF FLUFF FLUFF" I get a strong sense that she's pursuing the easy lynch that people will agree with because my play does not fit the style that has come to be expected.

no opinion on shinori since haven't seen him/her since the opening salvo of votes and there's nothing conclusive there for me

Maybe I was wrong in being too broad. I totally can see that given my limited experience, but experience nonetheless (it's not just this day 1 either). I have seen nothing to the contrary that suggests otherwise to my beliefs, but yes, I admit I could be being too broad in my characterization.

most of the votes seem to be "pressure to me" i do not understand why refa is voting but it seems to be pressure to me? they are all votes within like the first 24 hours that probably do not hold as much weight as the votes on me do now. people are on my wagon because they think i'm scum - why are you voting shinori?

#freelosses

[scorri]

I talked about Cam in one of my more recent posts for one thing. For another, yeah, we've had three days, but I've also been busy due to starting grad school. Which means I've posted when I've had the time which hasn't been often. And at least I willingly gave opinions and didn't need to have them dragged out of me.

Also, I find it amusing that you say you're ok with my lynch but have done nothing to try to get me lynched. You're half committing to an opinion without seriously trying to do anything about it.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Fuck it

##Vote: Jalmont

[BBM]

I'd request you to reread Shinori's posts if you don't have an opinion on him atm. Did you think his vote on me was valid?

Avoiding talking about main lynch wagons is something mafia like to do, because if the lynchee is town, they can distance themselves from a mislynch, while if the lynchee is scum, they can avoid pushing their scumbuddy closer to a lynch without buddying in any way.

Lynch priority before I sleep: Shinori > Weapons > Grassbridger flashwagon > Shin. Not interested in lynching Jalmont. Leaning town there, and I think that his content will become both better and easier to analyze as the game progresses.

cut by Weapons doing idek what; I'll think about it in the morning.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

cut by Weapons doing idek what; I'll think about it in the morning.

yeah that's a good idea

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I'm breaking so many of my rules here

##Unvote

FOR SANITY

[Prims]

Day 1.8 - Votals

Jalmont (3) - Kay, scorri, Boron

Weapons (3) - Shinori, kirsche, Grassbridger

Shin (2) - Objection, Jalmont

Shinori (2) - BBM, Refa

CT075 (1) - Essbee

Grassbridger (1) - Paperblade

Refa (1) - Shin

Not Voting (2): CT075, Weapons

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. You have 12 hours and 30 minutes left in the day.

[Kay]

Uh, Jalmont, while I do think that Shin needs to post opinions and be more noticeable (along with a couple other people), it doesn't take four paragraphs and a few stand-alone sentences to build a case on him. Most of your ~words~ were an explanation of the "archetype" of how NOC is played. I think we all know how NOC is played and stuff, you don't have to repeat it back to us and "tell us how it is". It doesn't contribute, fluffs up your post, makes it look like you're posting a lot of content when you're not, and makes actually relevant things easier to miss.

Okay, so, you think Shin is scum. You gave passing opinions on scorri and me but nothing too committal. If no one else is feeling a Shin lynch, who ELSE would you be willing to lynch?

Nah, I see Jalmont's point. Different groups do play differently, and while I don't see how goofing around and mocking other people for not posting constantly is a viable strategy if many people were to do it, and SF's playstyle is melded thoroughly enough with that of other sites that it could be said to be at the least, a standard strategy to use, it is correct that different things are taken as scumtells in different communities, and people go about playing the game in different ways. What the superior method of play is doesn't matter; if someone's used to playing with a community that doesn't promote scumhunting, or resorts to NLs often, or such, they will probably start out doing the same thing here.

It's not enough that I'm gonna drop my read on him entirely, because fact is, it's also reasonable that he'd use that as an excuse to be irritating dead weight as scum. But considering that it's viable, I'm not as determined to lynch him immediately. He posted an actual solid read, and isn't refusing to scumhunt anymore. I don't agree with his analysis about Shin, just because meta, but it is nonetheless a relatively confident read with a reasonable thought process and that's something. Plus the vague gutreads on me, grass, etc, and his accusation of Scorri tunneling. That's more contribution than... well, a lot of people.

What I don't like is how someone basically dismissed all his recent posts with "okay so you're telling us how NOC works and I don't think your opinions are definite enough so whatever". So at this point, I'm alright with lynching Jalmont if there isn't a better option by the end of the phase, and will change my vote before then to consolidate whatever wagon, but at least for now

##Unstab

##Stab: Boron

Since this will probably be my last post until very near phase end, and changing my mind just then undoubtedly made it more confusing who I think is scummiest, my priorities for who I'd want lynched are Boron > Refa > Jalmont > everyone not specifically mentioned > Weapons. Also yes I'm posting a townread because said townread is tied for most votes and I won't be back until not early enough to sway more than maybe one or two votes. Weapons always goes around dropping pressure/reaction votes with little to no explanation, and in particular that Jalmont voteunvote looked too conspicuous to be at all scummy without significant WIFOM or something.

Also no, I did not come up with massive suspicions on Refa with no explanation when he only did one thing that looked a bit scummy to me, I just think he's a slightly better lynch than the rest.

[The Objection!]

Ugh, sorry for not being here. I have some free time right now, so I'll try contributing more.

From my skim-read I think that Jalmont looks kinda bad, but there are other wagons as well, so hang on a moment while I do a detailed reread.

And, I'm aware that my method is not the best method to start discussion, but that's the best one I came out with given the circumstances.

[Refa]

Honestly right now I don't buy any of the major wagons. Jalmont is probably worse as he clearly isn't as lazy as I first interpreted considering all these posts he made and some of the stuff he's saying is not just rather dumb but is avoiding the issue. People have frequently asked him for opinions but he's refusing to give them. Right now though he's trying to contribute in his own way and trying to generate discussion. The same can't really be said for weapons.

##Vote: WoMC

Do you have an opinion?

Honestly, I think they both have the same content issue, or rather lack thereof at the time of the post that I'm responding too (since then, WoMC has posted a response, and I guarantee you I am not sublimely trying to make him look scummier). WoMC is more obvious for sure, but there could be numerous excuses for lack of effort (which he has since elaborated on); Jailmont, on the other hand, has clearly put more effort and subsequently has written a lot without saying a lot, an art that's been used many a time to pad out english essays (see, I'm doing it right now). Honestly, that's why I'm finding him more suspicious.

Both Jalmont and Weapons look bad to me right now. The difference between the two in my mind is that Weapons is basically posting one-liners and voting someone with votes on them without much (if any) original reasoning, while Jalmont is taking the time to write posts with quite a bit of ~words~ in them, but he isn't saying anything useful. Jalmont seems to be putting in more effort into making posts that don't say anything useful, which is worse in my eyes.

...dammit Boron, now I look like a TOOL for copying what you said. I didn't read this before I posted the above statement!

but Jalmont's posts are literally tl;dr

Every time I read his posts, every time.

Refa and Shin, we're way out of RVS and apparently have less time in this phase than I thought we did. Do you guys have opinions who do you think is scum?

My second vote on Shinori was not an RVS...although I guess the line between RVS and early day 1 is kind of blurry, REGARDLESS yes I do have new opinions.

Um...I'll be posting them soon. I just would like to gather my thoughts, drink a cup of coffee, maybe do some programming homework, but I will post soon.

[Sunwoo]

Nah, I see Jalmont's point. Different groups do play differently, and while I don't see how goofing around and mocking other people for not posting constantly is a viable strategy if many people were to do it, and SF's playstyle is melded thoroughly enough with that of other sites that it could be said to be at the least, a standard strategy to use, it is correct that different things are taken as scumtells in different communities, and people go about playing the game in different ways. What the superior method of play is doesn't matter; if someone's used to playing with a community that doesn't promote scumhunting, or resorts to NLs often, or such, they will probably start out doing the same thing here.

It's not enough that I'm gonna drop my read on him entirely, because fact is, it's also reasonable that he'd use that as an excuse to be irritating dead weight as scum. But considering that it's viable, I'm not as determined to lynch him immediately. He posted an actual solid read, and isn't refusing to scumhunt anymore. I don't agree with his analysis about Shin, just because meta, but it is nonetheless a relatively confident read with a reasonable thought process and that's something. Plus the vague gutreads on me, grass, etc, and his accusation of Scorri tunneling. That's more contribution than... well, a lot of people.

What I don't like is how someone basically dismissed all his recent posts with "okay so you're telling us how NOC works and I don't think your opinions are definite enough so whatever". So at this point, I'm alright with lynching Jalmont if there isn't a better option by the end of the phase, and will change my vote before then to consolidate whatever wagon, but at least for now

Kay, I can see Jalmont's point about how "different groups play differently". I came from a site where all setups were open and town no-lynched repeatedly, and still won about half the games. I know that different play styles are at work. What I don't like is that he had to spend so much time talking about it? I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm literally thinking, "okay I get it, I don't need to be lectured on how different groups have different play styles and things that are scum tells".

Also, while it may seem to you like I'm simply dismissing all of his recent posts, maybe I really don't understand what he's saying. Maybe I legitimately feel that Jalmont's posts are bigger than they have to be and maybe his posts and what he says really are going over my head. You're making it out as if I'm purposely dismissing all of his posts and points, instead of considering that maybe - just maybe - I just don't understand what he's saying. Does that make me scum?

I don't know if I'll be around at phase end, since I usually wake up around then. I'll try to get up early though.

[Zkirsche]

I think it's a little odd that kirsche kept his vote on me out of RVS, and then said Cam not doing the same thing is "a little weird," especially since kirsche didn't really justify keeping his vote there.

That said voting him for bad logic is bad in of itself and if PB's only reasoning to his vote is "no Shinori, BBM isn't answering for Objection ergo he's not scummy and you are bad" then his vote is really lazy.

This was my justification.

WRT Weapons, his excuse for his lack of activity is believeable but his recent vote switch, along with the drop of his Shinori vote (who seems to be his only scum read) is kinda suspect. He knows that it's bad but that doesn't make it good. Kay's using meta to defend him but I don't even remember WoMC's meta because it's been so long and cba to go check so I'm taking that with a grain of salt.

I'm leaning town on Refa (I think) due to that suboptimal game theorying, which I always have a hard time believing is something scum does.

Do remember that Refa is a new player so that suboptimal game theorying may be an attempt at optimal game theorying.

was thinking that the best thing we could do is come up with an agreed upon order of roles given/people the roles are given to from most town to most scummy. Thoughts?

Well, tornado seems like a pretty obvious D1 choice. Dunno where to go from there, just down to personal opinion. Tracker makes the most sense D2 FMPOV, though Vig and jailer are good too.