Zkirsche

I thought the role was neutral overall (advantageous for town and scum, but was weighing the options against each other. I didn't really see the point of having a hammer mechanic in the game if we (town) can still lynch someone anyway. I didn't want to switch to a third party because I thought GP would then shoot Elemina no matter what so for that and the reason the role isn't super town anyway I stuck with my read on her as a player rather than relying on rolespec. Between the two I felt GP was a better lynch.

Feeling better doesn't mean I'm feeling town. I voted you for those things AND what I've said before. You were getting flak for your Elemina vote so that doesn't make sense. Second is actually saying that your reasoning is contrived, third is saying you can't provide examples behind your thoughts which is bad because I think you are scum trying to fake reads and content. Still haven't gotten those btw. When have I said noone is scum but you? Don't play the tunnel card quite so quickly here mate you won't be able to play it later. I'm less and less unsure of Ryker by the post and am going to reread SB and Proto because I am interested in them. You may like me to be the seventh person to tell Yolo that he needs more content and accomplish nothing but I actually want to do productive things with my time. #736 is hyper defensive. I expect you to vote your biggest scum read but I obviously also expect your scum reads to be good ones.

Apparently these are no thoughts. Also for further reference. I didn't lynch GP because it'd make me feel better about you, I lynched GP because she was suspicious but said that this is how I would feel if she flipped town. Terrible assumptions. Also I was fairly obviously town reading Elemina (still am) too but you don't take that into account. Reported for being a big fat meanie. May eclipse have mercy on your soul. ##Vote: Refa Still a bad slot tbh. His scum reads right now are me, Yolo and Mallow. Yolo and Mallow are easy scum reads which aren't going to go anywhere (vig pls), and his read on me is based around his stubborn insistence that I had never shown annoyance nor weariness of him before I put him in my lynch priority when it's just factually incorrect. Can you cite sources on why Elemina's other votes were apparently egregious? Good job realising his GP vote wasn't that bad though, pity it only comes after he's no longer directly on the chopping block. Still need to ISO Proto lol I am lazy my bad. I think it's just a case of lacking a role name for her role. @Irony: Why do you trust Refa out of interest? You said "for reasons given before" but the last thing you said about Refa was "I think I trust Refa" without any reasoning. Sorry if I missed something. What do you make of my comments about him?

That conclusion is what I came to after reading his ISO. You haven't but I feel like you're presenting a world where Elemina hates everyone who has ever hated him when Blitz and more continue to hate him and he has changed his minds about them. At the end of the day both town and scum would undermine someone's argument by analysing it so unless you can come up with how Elemina was just acting to undermine his opponents rather than acting to prevent wrong doing I will never come round to your side of thinking. I had a bad feeling about you day one and what I see to be a shallow stubborness when it comes to Elemina is what drives my suspicion. You have only become active when it might be considered convenient for you: when attacked and at phase end. It feels like you're not concerned with what people are saying or how they are saying it you only look at the surface (Elemina has thrown light shade on people and those people correspond to those who have attacked him). You say it's the way he's gone about it that's bad but then when and why? More detail please I do not like to simply "agree to disagree" until shown examples. That being said I believe, after thinking more about it, that a Refa lynch is less optimal then either a GP lynch or a tie vote with GP proving her her role. Much of my suspicion with Refa is linked to GP and it will provide some insight. We should make a club with these being the requirements for joining.

Ok I have reached critical spam mass with that previous post and have clearly become too excited I will be back in 10 when I am calmer.

We should turbo SB while he is asleep to honour SF tradition.

Seriously are you me because this is exactly what I've been thinking.

I'm tempted to ISO Proto but then i feel I will miss out on current discussion.

Missed that small detail my bad, that's why I asked I was unsure. =p

People need to be less angry and put their logic caps on because Elemina vs everyone feels more fueled on passive aggression than anything else at this point.

Cut by Elemina arguing with Blitz kek.

@Ryker in your previous list post you seem like you don't think there's a chance to lynch Refa, does that mean you would lynch him if you could? @Refa: I can sympathise with the thought (it's part of my GP suspicion) but am not really sold on that alone: it just feels like Elemina has been looking for scum. It didn't feel like Elemina has been pushing people just for the sake of pushing them. His thought process and his switch on people like GP are very well broadcasted don't feel like scum posts. How many times has Manix, as an example, got irritated that someone didn't do something earlier? There is just nothing wrong with his arguments or his cases so I can't really say. You're really blowing this out of proportion to imo his "undermining" of SB comes from asking SB to analyse his argument. That's totally valid, he pushes peopel for more content and then comments on it but he isn't tunnelling like you seem to be suggesting, switching on SB, Yolo and Proto (and I guess Blitz too? Elemina is Blitz scum?).

(Btw Yedi it was a good post good job sorry if I made it sound otherwise).

I really don't think Elemina is scum here though guys, going back I just feel like people are taking offence to them taking offence at being attacked from all sides (which would obviously be frustrating) and I still think the content is decent. It does feel like he tries to cherry pick everything as bad but then I've done that as town before and I'd overwrite anything like that as just suboptimal play (kek). God I hate GP's role I'm honestly thinking of switching solely because I don't want GP to just off Elemina like a vig. I guess Elemina is only numbers though. This was before I read like 6 pages take that [part with a grain of salt, you're fine. Noone has ever cared Yedi, which is the problem. Feels like a third of the game thinks Elemina is very town and ignores the bad, a third wants to lynch Elemina while ignoring the good, and the the rest are caught in between and don't seem to care (?). SB feels very "there" but his posts read genuine do you like waffles?

Everyone that ever gets numbers claims at the start of the game, or at least here we do. Have you never played with this role before either? @Ryker: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=67107&p=4594517 @Refa: I don't think games will be balanced with the idea that town can't be active enough in mind? At that point you might as well just go back to majority rules, surely?

Isn't the point of the hammer mechanic supposed to punish town for mislynching and having GP's role just takes away from that? 10/3 feels more town sided so I'd expect decent scum roles. The issue with it being a scum role is that it doesn't really offer much in terms of making plays for scum as trying to stop hammer is basically impossible - it either happens or it doesn't. Could just be a bad role.

I would lynch Refa or GP at this stage, don't think the current situation calls for a Ryker lynch but it's w/e their recent posts look like they're trying to scum hunt properly atm. GP > Refa > Ryker Ryker respond to my previous wall please.

Hi I've been watching Evangelion with a friend for like 5 hours my bad. This thread goes from "reasonable amount to read" to "too much" real fast. By making a case on someone like Refa he's putting himself at risk of becoming in the spotlight, compared to Ryker/Mallow etc there are much easier lynches to push (unless every "easy" target is mafia already of course, in which case something like this is possible). It's enough to make me forget about considering them. Don't really have enough justification of Ken's meta to really make a proper read but my judge of his personality is that he gets super fired up about stuff and is very stubborn so this game kinda fits with that. Dunno about alignment tells, he doesn't feel very different than usual except maybe he's being a bit quieter now (I say before reading the next ten pages). Someone (I think you) asked why I didn't name Yedi as a scumspect and that's because Yedi was an RVS vote and then they went inactive, so I don't really have a read on them. ??? My case was after GP voted so this is confusing. I even gave an example and explained it further (I'm pretty sure). Next sentence you say you agree with me though so das cooooo I am very confused as to why this affects your read on Spinal? I'm not really sure what the first statement means, do you mean Spinal wouldn't be able to stay consistent because that's incredibly weak. Can we lynch GP please. She unvoted Spinal after that failed to gain traction, tried to incite people to hop aboard the Mallow wagon implicitly(without voting???) and then suddenly Elemina is scum because they didn't claim at the start, but made sure not to pressurethem until after a wagon was forming. This is incredibly shallow, do you have any further issue with the cases/the logic behind the cases or is it just his targets? Is what GP said about Elemina just trying to find suboptimal play true and can you link examples if so. Not committing to a vote is more than bad play there is an advantage to it. In my description of the events above you are not being held responsible for either wagons with these actions. If someone says "yes let's vote Mallow" then you can spin them to be the instigator, by switching over to Elemina you are helping their wagon and encouraging their lynch. ALl the while staying in the background and shirking responsibility. Furthermore I still think your responses are shallow, are there more examples of Elemina simply calling out suboptimal play as scum FYPoV or was that it? Elemina have you explained why you didn't out being numbers right away? If you've had experience with mafia then this should be commonplace knowledge. If you don't want to answer simply ignore this line. GP I don't really understand your argument on page 26, you seem to be implying that you would be pushing Mallow as scum instead of Elemina but you DID push him first and noone bit so it feels wrong. Join the club. It all worked fine 3-4 years ago now the quoting system is completely busted. @Ryker why would you lyunch me you didn't respond to my previous wall nor did you mention me in that post. No majority wins here. @Boron: How do ties work? Role can come from scum as a punish-the-town mechanic. Town almost always hammers anyway so it isn't nearly that strong (Usually a panic hammer tho). We should test though.

Good lord this is gonna be a fun 4 hours of reading I can just tell. @GP: Erm, he never took his vote off of Ryker and what appears to be much of his case is Mallow's lack of elaboration and sporadic inactivity. Please update your reads list because this is exactly the type of thing I was concerned about. You seem to miss details here and there and you don't seem to go deeper as to the why? Is it impossible for town to get so hung up over semantics that they form suspicion on them? Considering Spinal spent much of his discussion with Ryker supposedly arguing over semantics doesn't it seem like a consistent train of thought, simply bad logic then? Why can only scum make bad cases. This doesn't explain why you continued to refuse to explain anything after being called out on it by what feels like half the playerlist. Why did you ask Blitz to give his top three scumreads before your post? Could you please explain what purpose does that achieve? Disagree with your Blitz case, arguing against an RVS case is exactly how you get out of RVS. I assure you I haven't made any assumptions on your character. You have behaved in a certain way and there's a benefit to scum in behaving like that so I called it out (and it's not a matter of being able to it's what the biggest advantage for scum is). I've had this wriggling feeling that you and I were very similar and we definitely are, you play exactly as I did 2-3 years ago, down to inciting angry slapfights for the sake of escaping RVS and being all cocky and smug about it haha (eclipse will remember many a game of this well I'm sure ;p ). I have also done this as scum and used the pretense of RVS-escape to justify some rather outlandish behaviour however so you're gonna need more than this to quell my interest and I still expect answers to questions. Many of the cases are criticising Mallow's content not the sparsity of his posts (Pretty sure we have a similar amount of posts yet I believe I have much more content), or rather, the sparsity of content in his posts. I believe YOLO is guilty of this and Yedi is a different beast entirely as they have been practically non-existant, which isn't quite the same thing. You also missed that I have talked about GP and I presumed Blitz too but it turns out when the forum ate my previous post I forgot to reinput that I liked Blitz's Mallow case my bad, I blame Chrome. Talk to me about it if you have an issue. I'd rather not discuss it in a mafia game. Willing to sort things out in a non-public setting Kreygasm ##Unvote this is getting uncanny. Am I sleep Mafia-ing? I do not want to give an in-depth read on Rainbow/Proto because that is frankly a lot of effort at this point. I liked his arguments and the way he presented them when I read them, found nothing egregious and only things I found agreeable. The worst is probably the typo shit at a glance but I haven't really read that properly. Elemina must be town because scum wouldn't try to lynch Refa in this gamestate, far easier targets to mislynch assuming Refa town if Elemina scum. Can't be bothered to read his case or his argument vs Refa, I'll do it tomorrow when it isn't 1 AM. ##Vote: Green Poet My gut feeling that Ryker is just a clone of me is winning out against my annoyance at Green Poet's recent content. He's still not off the hook though, lynch priority: GP > Ryker >> Mallow > Yolo Would happily lynch either of Ryker/GP and could be persuaded to lynch Yolo/Mallow. Refa/Ryker/Elemina any chance you could comment on my GP thoughts? Pedit: who we knew wasn't gonna be back for 24 hours and a lot of guys would get away with doing nothing for the first 24 hours, with just the excuse of "I was waiting on Proto", which Yolo did after all... @Ryker this is why we don't let "waiting for people" slide anymore because it's stifles discussion and is an easy pass for scum.

Jesus there have been two pages since I started writing this post.

Ryker's longest content string is two lines and he has three pages worth of posts. My biggest apprehension about this suspicion is that it feels like my play in .hack where I felt compelled to make a post asking people to claim to me every 5 minutes or so.

@Yedi: Along with a lot of the stuff Proto posted, Ryker continues to dodge questioning and outright refuses to explain anything. It's all well and good to reaction test a bit, which is why I don't really mind the slapfight nor the attitude in general, but there has to be well explained conclusions, reasons behind it all. Worst of all there is scum intent in delaying these explanations, every post that is made gives Ryker something to concoct an argument with, it allows him to see the state of the game, appeal to the right people in the right way etc. It also slows down the attack- passion fades with time and maybe new targets come up and our disdain for this behaviour gets forgotten for a while. The most egregious thing is his never ending waiting. First he was waiting for GP to post before making a content post, now he's waiting for Blitz to *explicitly state* two more scum reads and put them in order. Note that Blitz has a major read and a major case now and has made comments on other people and this is still not enough to get him to post these explanations. When is this magic content post happening? At this point I question whether it really catches scum!Blitz if he posts his reasoning for suspecting him way earlier before Blitz posts his scumspects. Also confirmed no hostile ITP Kreygasm. @Refa use this but replace the username: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&cType=topic&cId=67107&search_author=Green%20Poet Blitz used ISOs in his post and I've just been doing that to get by.

Hold up I got cut by like 7 posts.

Can you not coast along with no explanations or content for another 24 hours please there's more to this game than waiting for Blitz. He has a case now you can talk about. What is going on this game half the players have no coherent thought process at all. Yolo/Mallow pls post something longer than 2 sentences this is getting ridiculous. Mallow in particular can you please elaborate on these "initial feelings" you have for Green Poet which you've had all game and address her more recent content posts. Am I scum? Why do you want Blitz, and apparently only Blitz, to talk about me in particular? I don't see an issue here, questioning an interpretation or an argument doesn't require you to agree/disagree with the conclusion of that argument. Mallow is suspicious for not having a read on the game in general, this is just way too specific imo. GP is Spinal still the scummiest player in the thread? What do you think of their newer content? Your commenting a lot on stuff but never drawing actual conclusions nor following your own stuff up (e.g. letting Ryker get away with not explaining their Blitz vote). Ryker > GP >> Mallow = Yolo.

Ryker you are not gods gift to mafia, claiming to be responsible for over 1/2 the stances in this game is a bit much. Half your posts are fluff. I'm too lazy to do ISOs and never got around to downloading the plugin that helps make them. Spinal's obsession with Ryker is reading town, the reason he is concerned with hallow "disappearing" (more likely going to bed) feels like it's mostly because he defended Ryker. What an exciting time, we have a/many possible explanation(s) from Ryker (at long last) and Blitz will give his scumreads. Will Yedi and other inactives return with massive wallposts? Will I ever put effort into this game? I'll find out after the break in this exciting episode Mafia Is Not Dead.