Zkirsche

It's number crunching for a reason I do not find compelling to investigate though, which is why my opinion is what it is. Kaden probably isn't coming back btw so one of us would have to make a list.

I just realised I put "no heart seals" when I meant "no partner seals" my bad. Heart seals are about the minimum effort I would want to put into it (although would require number calculations). But when would one change Selena into the WL/MK for the skills? When would losing bows be an ok sacrifice to get the skills? This would require number crunching to accurately do and I don't really want to tier off of pure speculation. Then how would you determine who is the most "deserved" support for Silas/Camilla/Beruka: is it better to give them units who give them the best pair up and dual attack bonuses or units who would best make use of becoming a paladin etc down the line? It's just a question I don't really want to have to answer tbh because it's obvious people like Jakob benefit greatly from that chang but won't be as good a unit to be paired up with.

They're not as limited as you might think considering you can buy them quickly. The hardest part is probably getting the S support which can take from as few as 5 to over 10 chapters. The worst part of it all is that mid discussion I'll have to constantly reevaluate numbers as the growth rates and class bases change. It just seems like such a painful endeavor as you'd have to compare Bowknight!Selena with Sky Knight!Selena and Wyvern Knight!Selena and their performances on each chapter so as to effectively rank her performance their, as one example. That's like 1.5* the work for probably little payoff.

Hi I am interested in talking/discussing fates but can see that opening discussion is limited right now. If I may be so bold to presume and theorise for why this is (aside from just a tiredness for tiers) my main thought is that right now it's quite unorganised. How exactly is this first tier list being ranked: by popular view through voting or from input given to Kaden for him to formulate a tier list? If it's the latter then I suggest you just go ahead and make a list of your liking so we can go about improving it bit by bit rather than going for these vague discussions (people were discussing Effie vs Silas but we have no indication of how far apart each is tiered which skews the perspective). If it's the former then doing a "rate the unit" thing like they are currently doing for Radiant Dawn would be a better way of maintaining initial interest, before the debates properly begin. Also I would probably set some ground rules going to get a basis: these rules can often be changed later on if the majority agrees with it. The biggest thing for me is: how does Effie's performance in Revelation and performance in Conquest add up? A unit may be better in one game but worse in the other due to join time and map mechanics and trying to factor that in is a bit of a pain. Also, what difficulty are we playing on? Hard or Lunatic? For reclassing both arguments hold a lot of weight to me: I refused to debate awakening because it was a pain trying to work out which class was best for each unit imo, but it doesn't really make sense to just ignore these items that the game gives you for free. I propose a sort of compromise: how about allowing heart seals but denying partner/friendship seals? This way we don't just lock units into classes but we also don't allow for near infinite possibilities. This also avoids painful arguments in the short term like: Silas is better because he can help more people promote into cavaliers. My proposed ruleset would be: By no means just assume these rules straight up and I don't mean to take over from the groundwork Kaden was built but hopefully what I've said can prompt some discussion. Edit: *meant no partner seals

No matter how many times I come back to debating FE9 I can't help but be amazed at how perfect the top tiers are, it's almost as if the game devs designed them to outclass everyone else on purpose. Ah yeah I forgot about that, I was wondering why in my previous Wexp arguments earlier on this list I assumed use of Steel axes from the beginning. But yeah I was referring to swapping to Steel ASAP (why wouldn't you?) which makes it so Jill, our main frontliner, only needs about 4-5 rounds of combat each chapter.

If Oscar isn't holding the Knight Ward ever and can't double (if he doubles he 2RKOs), he must be holding the strength band. If he's holding a strength band for that long he gets an extra point of str and so his numbers don't change. Marcia 2RKOs regardless of whether or not WTA is applied. I forgot wyverns start with lances and not axes in this game. Assuming Chapter 16 promotion, that's 10 chapters (technically more as 17 has 4 parts) to get 180 wexp or 18 wexp per chapter. That's 9 rounds of combat if we're only using an iron axe the whole time, which we're not. For our main combat unit this is more than reasonable. Jill and Kieran obviously benefit from lack of WTA.

If Soren is 20/10, Oscar is going to be like 20/20. Let's look at the stats of the big 4, assuming 20/15 as these guys are our real front liners so we're focusing resources into them (remember we only need one of them to be this buff - not all 4). I'm going to skip over hit because lolhit. lv 20/15 Oscar w/Forged Silver lance: A Kieran, B Tanith 46 HP, 42Atk, 102 Avo (!), 12 Res Thanks to WTA, that's 18 damage per round with the silver lance, so 36 in a turn. We can then kill Bertram in the player phase of the next turn with Oscar and seize with rescue dropped Ike. He faces like 12% true and would only face 2 attacks ideally. Let's say the 22~% chance of him hitting once happens (reasonable). He'll heal 10 damage and we only have 7 to spare. Thus we need 3 damage via siege tomes. Blizzard will do fine. Of course if you give Oscar an energy drop he won't have to worry at all. (He's a very good recipient for it), and if Oscar has A Ike instead his avo will go up by 8 more points, leaving Bertram with a 5% true chance of hitting. OH and if Oscar has 10 levels with a Knight ward (note he's had 22 levels total by this point) he doubles Bertram and then Bertram dies in one turn. Heck 20/12 Oscar with 15 KW level ups doubles Bertram and kill kill him in one turn. lv 20/15 Marcia w/ Forged Silver lance: A Kieran, B Tanith (wow these two have incredible supports). 44 Atk, 28AS, 83 Avo, 17 Res If Bertram hits Marcia twice, he'll heal 16 damage. She deals 20 damage per hit, so 80 damage total. Bertram dies in one turn yet again. 20/12 Marcia has the same atk as 20/15 Oscar and so will still kill Bertram in 2 rounds. lv 20/15 Jill w/ Forged Silver Axe: A Mist, B Haar 44 Atk, 23 AS, 75 Avo, 13 Res Uh-Oh. Quite mediocre for this without any resources (namely a speedwing and generous speed band usage). Assuming these resources aren't given to our main unit for some reason, she deals 18 damage a round and faces two hits at 22 damage each. Over three attacks she'll deal 56 damage and he'll heal 22 damage so we need some way of dealing with the remaining 15 damage. Bertram has 19 Res so we need 35 Atk. 20/7 Soren with a spirit dust accomplishes this fine with Meteor. 20/7 Ilyana with B Mia and a spirit dust can only do it with Bolting, I'll give you that. But wait! I only assumed at most 4 uses of Bolting on Oliver. Happy days. Of course Ilyana/Soren can do it fine with Blizzard if we use Reyson. I still think we should have given Jill those resources though as it makes her unstoppable all game. If she doubles Bertram she'll be able to 2RKO. lv 20/15 Kieran w/Forged Silver Axe, A Oscar, B Marcia 46 Atk, 26 AS, 86 Avo, 12 Res Giving Kieran the Knight ward for the +2 res and the +3 speed. If he's our main unit and none of the above are then this is fine (the KW should always go to whoever is fighting Bertram anyway). Anyway, 20 damage per hit, four hits a turn, low chance of not finishing Bertram in 2 rounds. Even if Kieran can't double, Bertram can only heal 22 damage and Kieran does 60 damage over 3 atatcks. This is more than enough damage for Soren/Ilyana to use Meteor (or Blizzard in Soren's case). tl;dr: Oscar and Marcia have no problems with Bertram without Bolting, and neither do Jill/Kieran so long as you don't starve them of resources. Edit: Also w.r.t the dragons in Chapter 28, any combination of two of the above will take them out. The amount of damage only one of them will deal is not going to be enough for the mages to KO them afterwards (although again getting them to attack them safely is going to be a pain).

1) We have access to both Blizzard and Meteor by these guys so saving Bolting seems a bit unnecessary. 2) For Bertram 9 Mov units will get to him and kill him in at most 2 rounds (so 1 turn) before Soren/Ilyana will even get in range. 3) We're not going to be able to ORKO or even 2RKO 40HP, 17AS, 24 Res Heddwyn with siege tomes. He's equally as rubbish physically as Oliver is so I'm not sure why using Bolting on Oliver is bad but on Heddwyn is good. Also good luck positioning your mages in a spot where they won't die to the 1000 laguz this chapter and where they can shoot Heddwyn BEFORE other units get to him.

Please name and explain bosses which are threats worthy of bolting, to the point where the safety of the team is more important than saving turns. If the amount of BEXP we need to pour into a unit so that they are not actually hindering us by forcing us to protect them/slowing us down exceeds the amount of bexp we have spare, then we would need to take BEXP from other units. I'm not arguing that we do not utilise BEXP I am arguing that other units like the BEXP and use it better, thus moving the BEXP to people like Rofl hurts the team, just like giving stat boosters to low tiers hurts the team overall. Leaving enemies behind on the enemy phase can also clog up choke points and slow other units down regardless of if it's a rout or not, it's just that routs really highlight the importance of EP killing the most. If we complete a map slower with a unit than we would otherwise then clearly that unit is a negative if we assume deployment, and can only have total use of 0 by not deploying them

Noone is any "threat" whatsoever but killing people fast is cool and Soren/Ilyana give us another option with Bolting. In a team without fliers but with pallys it may be better to use Bolting on Oliver rather than on Homusa in chapter 19. Other long rangers are not a problem due to low hit rates+low damage.

When it comes to 1, I think it might just be poor wording on your part and the message is fine, but when it comes to exp, especially BEXP then one's prescence CAN be a negative. E.g. pouring BEXP into someone to make them usable. Also imagine deploying rofl in a rout chapter, any enemies that attack rofl in the enemy phase will have to be dealt with and thus if he was any other unit we might complete the chapter faster. Thus his deployment is costing us turns and these characters should be punished accordingly. On the topic of availability, Elincia may be worth moving into lower mid with Haar and co thanks to reasonably unique rescue utility. Her combat is pretty unsalvageable though.

What better use is there for bolting other than killing bosses on killboss/seize chapters?

Being fast is not foolish IMO it's one of the main aims. Don't worry about being "acknowledged" or whatever, we ain't that elitist anymore (we used to be though rip). The problem with Ike is that he's locked onto a bad weapon class (swords) which have no 2 range, not just early on but for effectively the whole game (Ragnell comes so late it almost doesn't matter), this is gonna leave a trail of enemies on the EP that can't be killed. Admittedly he's very hard to kill, but I believe he has problems ORKOing early-mid game whereas once Boyd starts doubling it's all over. He may be more durable than Boyd but generally Boyd's tanky enough to get by thanks to his high hp stat. I can get numbers later regarding ORKOing and what not but right now I'm busy so I'll give you the sketch of the argument.

The Mia supprot gives Ilyana 10 extra hit making it very reliable. Mia doesn't have many options either nor is it difficult to have then placed near each other at the start of the chapter. If we don't have any fliers killing Oliver is not a joke, but if we have fliers everyone is a joke anyway. Soren and Ilyana can do things only two other units can do, thus they are valuable in that sense. @Dark Holy Elf: I think you are greatly overestimating the value of exp in this game. People will become killing machines regardless of if one extra unit comes along tbh. There aren't enough routs early on to necessitate worry over killing everyone quickly. If Marcia/Kieran/Oscar kill everyone in 3 turns regardless of if Soren/Ilyana get exp or not then what's the problem? Comparing them with Rofl is a bit of a fale equivalency considering Soren/Ilyana are actually useful. <0.5% is not a very RNG dependent number. It could be even better really if we spare a secret book which are all virtually useless as well. Soren/Ilyana also help with chapter 15 if we have no fliers, being able to quickly reach Muarim with effective weapons.

How does starting at chapter 6 (The point where you choose the path) work exactly?

Well let's look at the numbers: Oliver lv 2 (nosferatu [d]) 32 hp, 16 atk, 6 AS, 123 hit, 37 avo, 10 def, 20 res, 7 crit, 25 cev So we need 10AS to double him. Soren lvl 20/2 w/Bolting B Ike, Mage Band + Spirit Dust 36atk, 8AS, 118 Hit Who else are we giving the spirit dust/mage band to really and would they put it to as good a use? We won't use more than one mage a playthrough as that's just silly. 81% displayed means 93% true, so a 0.5% chance of missing, but then you have to factor in Soren's adept and there's an even smaller chance of failure. Ilyana lvl 20/2 w/Bolting B Mia 10*Archer+5*Knight Band 30Atk, 10AS (7 Str and 16 Spd), 125 Hit Even greater chance of hitting! More competitive band usage but most of her levels will be BEXP anyway and there's actually two different spd/skl bands we could use and if Ilyana is 20/3 then she just needs 4 levels with a speed band and no levels with a strength band to get the same results (well technically she'll have 1 more hit!). Although Reyson doesn't exist in chapter 17 so it'd have to be a 2 turn rip. The main problem might be reaching 20/2 by chapter 17 but people generally start promoting chapter 13 so assuming these slower growers are 20/2 by Chptaer 17-4 isn't a big deal imo, maybe they'd have to use a bit more BEXP than they should.

There really is no such thing as "stealing exp" as exp is only earnt through killing things and if Soren is killing things then it's hard to argue that he's not helping. If Soren/Ilyana are not ORKOing things and are only dealing chip damage then they aren't taking that much away from others either. So either they are useful and it doesn't matter and their availability helps, or they are not that great and then their availability doesn't really hurt them. Remember to consider the possibility of speed bands when calculating averages. When BEXPing them Ilyana/Soren can get a bit more speed, best case Ilyana can have 18 speed at 20/7, one level after Calill (and will also have 8 strength then regardless of bands) though I don't think she'll be level 20/7 going into chapter 20 tbh. Most of this feels irrelevant though as noone will be doubling reliably with seige tomes anyway as they are too heavy. In general you'd use Reyson to get two shots out of them and at which point it is whoever has the most mag which is Soren or Calill. Soren is clearly the best thanks to Adept and good supports. However siege tomes aren't really that useful being perfectly honest as most of the heavy hitters do more than enough damage to kill things quickly, the main point is that they provide good utility which noone below them brings (other than Rhys whose job is meaningless once Soren and co get promoted) and have good 1-2 range so they aren't too shabby in fights. Ilyana can be more aggressive thanks to shade but that doesn't really add to much when the paladins/laguz/fliers should be cleaning house pretty quickly. I'd argue that there are quite a few opportunities for mages to shine pre-Calill. They can bolting Oliver and 2RKO Oliver provided they can double (Ilyana needs to be level 20/2 with some speed/strength band use), collect items in chapter 15, kill Ravens with effective magic on the boats, bolting the chapter 19 boss (2RKOing him with spirit dust) and provide supports for their team (although Ilyana support is nothing to write home about, but Zihark likes it so that he can get his own earth bonus and he doesn't have a lot of choice). Post-Calill there's what? Schaeffer who'll get 2RKO'd by all of them in chapter 22, Gromell in chapter 25 is the same and who's left? Ashnard? It's all the same. She just doesn't do that much and as a regular combat unit she'll only be just about as good as the other mages. The argument for Calill> Ilyana/Soren seems to boil mostly down to Soren/Ilyana being a detriment pre-chapter 20 but I'd argue that Oliver/Chapter 19 more than make up for it. If being able to one/two turn a couple chapters is not a good use for the bountiful combat exp/BEXP then what is? Sure the fliers can do it in reasonable time too but tbh the fliers can still get the exp. Worst case you have to burn a speed band and an arms scroll. This is all ignoring physic/rescue/ward utility too. The person of most interest to me is Tormod. He only needs about as much bexp as the other mages to do as well, if not better thanks to Mov in combat but interestingly his weapon rank will likely not be good enough to use Bolting before Calill shows up so that takes away from his usefulness. His stave use will be better too so it's worth thinking about. He might actually be better than Soren/Ilyana if one can justify throwing a few arms scrolls onto him. Edit: I feel like Tormod would be incredible in a world without the top/high tiers but I don't know why we would give weight to such a scenario really. Even just a few pallys can clear most of the rabble and make it so that we won't need a mage to do front line fighting (not that Tormod can really sustain himself on the front line), which is what Tormod really has over Ilyana/Soren.

Has Makaze ever played an NOC here ever?

Yo Refa, are you a fan of the SCP stuff?

Pls Not a hydra slot

Why are there 17 numbers in the OP when only 16 can play? :thinking:

If having one role (Kinumi) be slightly too powerful is "horrible balance" then there hasn't been one balanced game on this site. Kinumi only won because she was king maker'd by Gaius too. You can argue theoretics all you want but these things never turn out as bad as you say they can in these games.

Ok I'm slightly less mad now so just want to say thank you all so much for playing, it meant a lot to me that this game found the player numbers I was looking for in the end! I hope everyone found something they enjoyed about this game at least, and maybe it was even more fun than it was stressful haha. If you have any logs that are even remotely interesting, please do send them my way, I'd greatly appreciate something to do tomorrow that isn't writing up this post game a second time.

~Postgame~ Modsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Inv3ZfmUsqjc1C0JAtd9v7c8sMTVCxrzoE8ZonLKb50/edit?usp=sharing Design Philosophies I now want to say: FUCK NEW SF HOLY FUCKING SHIT, I JUST SPENT 3 HOURS ON PLAYER/ROLE ANALYSIS AND IT WAS DELETED INSTANTLY. Can't even use word to prepare for it because spoiler tags don't work anymore! Everything has to be done in here. Disgusting upgrade. Role/player analysis will have to be tomorrow now, along with self-analysis as a host and final thoughts on the game. One more time: FUCK SF. We should all move to smogon, and I'm not kidding this is a personal recommendation based on this forums inability to test upgrades properly. They have a forum that works well and a good community.

Well, that's a good enough lynch song as any, Game over. Rasputin ended their own misery. Probably the smart move. Walrein the JoaT played an epic finale. Placate... erm.. died. Yeah we'll juts go with that. Just imagine a rock fell on his head or something w/e. Zeonth the ShotEnforcer should really think about getting a manicure or something. ...and that leaves our three winners: Delusion has deluded you all into thinking he's a good guy... maybe even the host as well. Awwwww bless.... N1 deaths from here on out. Lord Gaius the Shotdirector took their earnings and wasted away as a background rwby villain, kek. Chiffon, PINK and Gateaux all jumped for joy that it was over. honq has now proven that Kpop is the most superior genre of music. Take that red hot chilli peppers! FInally, Charlotte seductively took their crown. Sylveon can congratulate themselves on a job well done. AND THERE GOES THE MAFIA GAME. Hope you enjoyed, postgame coming very soon.