nflchamp

Well, since all of your complaints are addressed in that thread, I'll just redirect you back to it for a response.

Here's some Ike data Levels - 21 HP - 18 STR - 16 MAG - 7 SKL - 20 SPD - 8 LCK - 11 DEF - 9 RES - 7 It's 21 levels because I failed at counting my tallies while doing it.

I could do some of this. I'll test it on some GMs as I'm in Part 3 right now. I have to go to school in the next few minutes, so if you want me to test anyone specific just tell me. Edit: How many trials do you want for each character?

The problem was that that list originally said "allow for maximal error", which basically did put the player into retard-level playing. And there is almost no limit to how dumb someone can play one of these games.

That's the problem. We don't tier the convoy in other games because we DON'T give them credit for their inventory. We assume the game mechanic exists (because it does) and move on. Why should the convoy get tiered when given a face?

Which really only brings us back to the question of: if the convoy wasn't called "Merlinus", would we try to tier it? Edit: I mean, Merlinus doesn't have to do anything to have us send him stuff, either. So why should he get credit for that and not the other? Both are his functions of the convoy.

That rule GE brought up is to stop silly arguments like: Hugh costs us x amount of items in gold. x amount of items is usually going to be taken over Hugh. Hugh is only recruited 10% of the time. Hugh to the bottom of the list since he rarely exists.

Is there a point in saying Lugh > Lillina? I mean, is someone saying Lillina > Lugh? Or that Lillina is Upper Mid? Because I don't see the point of the comparison otherwise.

They transfer to RD if you have them at the end of the game and transfer the file.

A "combat" utility unit is a unit that is only used to get through chapters until a better unit arrives. Basically, any unit who is immediately great at combat (eg. having the best combat on the team) but will fall behind if used for an extended period is a "combat" utility unit. They only ever were planned on being used to supplement the team until someone who could be used for an extended period came.

I don't know. That looks to be a pretty excellent list there.

Etzel isn't allowed to exist. Killing characters is bad.

Then he at least needs to move above Jeigan. No one is a worse Jeigan than Jeigan.

Lorenz > Draug I mean, Lorenz beats Draug in HP, STR, and DEF growths. No one cares about the others as they're generals. Plus, Lorenz has B Bows for Silver and Brave hax. Draug's never reaching that.

The unit we recruit has to compete against every other character who may or may not be in play. Just because they aren't the unit being used doesn't mean they don't factor into the comparison. It doesn't exist simply to sandbag Nino because it affects everyone who recruits someone else. I mean, seriously, if recruitment arguments were allowed, Priscilla would be in her own tier three tiers above top because she recruits Raven and gets all of his contributions (which, of course, includes all of Lucius' contributions) on top of her own. Well, I guess Hector would compete with her considering all the people he can recruit. But I digress; the point is, just because it hurts Nino doesn't mean it simply exists to do so. It's there to stop ridiculous looking top tiers from happening that don't reflect what the characters do at all (but rather what the characters and everyone they recruit do). Nino just happens to get caught up in it. If a community believes that stealing arguments gave an improper view of how characters contribute, then yes they could do so and Mathew would drop like a rock. Sucks for Mathew, doesn't really matter. (Note: I still think the argument would be ridiculous because I highly doubt you could even make the argument without contradicting yourself, but it doesn't mean the rule can't be there.) The opinion of the community is going to play a factor somewhere. It isn't like you can claim that you aren't trying to impose you're opinion here, after all. Either way, I'm done. It wasn't like I actually thought I'd convince you that this was the right way of doing things. I really only cared because GE was saying that his argument must be implemented because it's logical and you seemed to jump on board. I do hope you're convinced that there are other logical arguments out there that can and will be implemented. It stinks to hold the viewpoint that isn't generally accepted, but that's life.

Yes, it is true that the game does not force us to recruit all characters. However, we must recruit characters in order to tier them, so it isn't unreasonable to say that all characters have to be recruited. Of course I think a rule about the silver card is ridiculous; it has no reasoning and would simply exists to sandbag Mathew. However, a rule that forces us to recruit all characters exists for a reason completely separate from the characters. That is "Mathew > Guy because Mathew recruits Guy" doesn't seem like an accurate representation of what the characters can do and needs to be gotten rid of. If Nino gets screwed over by it then Nino gets screwed over by it. Too bad for her. As you can see, we have to perfectly good sets of rules and the difference in whether or not Nino gets credit for 28x boils down to board opinion on recruitment arguments.

However, if I'm forced to recruit all characters by our own rules, 28x stops being optional and is a guarantee. Hence the assumption of recruiting all characters. If we were to make some ridiculous rule that forced us to steal the silver card, then no, Mathew wouldn't get credit for stealing it. And you are obviously correct about such a rule never being made. However, your idea that a rule is being made simply to keep Nino down is silly. Forcing all characters to be recruited stops recruitment arguments altogether as no one can get credit for something we have to do. Just because Nino can't get credit for 28x because of it does not mean that such a rule is put in place to keep her from moving up.

I'm assuming its just an implicit part of the list. If it's not, it's not. Oh well. What matters is that we don't care about what we're forced to do, only about the choices that we have to make. Sure, Hector has to seize. I don't care about that though, since I already know it has to happen. I'd much rather know about only how the choices I make affect things. The goal is to S rank. As a result, the player will use the best units and avoid using the weaker ones. However, it is not assumed the he has to do this. This is important. Only actions that the player is forced to take we don't care about. Because he has the option not to use Athos, Athos will get credit. Athos being used 100% of the time because he is obviously beneficial makes no difference.

What I'm saying is if, by tier standards, we have to recruit Nino and Jaffar, they can't get credit for being recruited and/or recruiting. Since 28x happens if we have Jaffar and Nino, by tier standards, we're going to 28x no matter what. No one can get credit for "allowing us to go there" because we have to go there by our own standards.

I like how no one bothers with my argument against Nino getting credit for 28x so many pages ago. The whole, assuming we recruit everyone possible, 28x has to happen. Nino can't get credit for it because we have to recruit Jaffar by tier standards.

GE, you're going to have to accept that you're argument isn't the only logical one out there. I don't care if your argument is logical if I feel another argument is logical and is better than yours.

Thank you. At least I can tell I'm not being completely ignored.

I'm pretty sure the point is, why should your arbitrary line be enforced rather than the arbitrary line that's already generally excepted? You know, he was kinda saying the bolded. AKA, if Nino gets credit for 28x because she basically recruits Jaffar, then everyone who recruits someone gets the benefits that recruiting that person brings. Hence why he made the comment about you not getting it but getting it. Finally, I feel like I'm being ignored in this topic. Someone please quote/respond to me.

I don't know why Nino or Jaffar should get credit for getting us into 28x. If anything we should penalize them for possibly preventing us from obtain the stuff in 28x. I mean, if all recruitable characters are assumed to be recruited in a tier playthrough then 28x has to occur. Nino and Jaffar can only prevent going to the chapter by failing to survive, not cause us to go to it.

And there are plenty of people, I'm sure, that see him as a face on a game mechanic. At which point, if you rank him, you'd have to rank all game mechanics. So the next question: should we tier something when we can't even largely agree it really is a unit?