BBM

Only defending yourself is scummy because you're not making an effort to progress the town wincon, just to keep yourself alive. However, you seem to have taken some efforts to remedy that, so ##Unvote, ##Vote: Kay. I think I feel okay with this.

Kay also seems to be lining up lynches, so she can go for Shinori today and me tomorrow. Why exactly do you think that one of me or Shinori are scum, Kay?

I agree with what Elie said in his last post- Strege just had an activity burst that was still devoid of content. He also asks people to give him a pass because he's at least shown activity, if not content. Other than the fact that before this recent burst, he hadn't really shown activity, the point about activity w/o content is exactly what he used to pressure both SB and Scorri, so I can't understand why he'd think it a measure of towniness.

If you're not having fun, then it's your choice whether or not you want to drop out, but I don't really think just struggling a bit is a reason to drop out. Mafia, like anything else, is something you have to work at if you want to do well. Anyways, I'm sort of disappointed that Ether doesn't have any reads yet, but his tone sounded genuine and his defence, at least, was good.

Votals: Bananas (2): Grassbridger, Strege BBM (1): Ether Ether (2): Xinnidy, SB Shinori (2): Balcerzak, Kay Strege (3): Manix, BBM, Scorri Manix (2): Blitz, Elieson Balcerzak (1): Shinori Grassbridger (1): SB Not Voting (1): Cam If we don't get an extension, we've got 4.5 hours left. We're sort of spread all over the place, with a 4-way tie for 2nd place in votes. Grass also hasn't explained why he thinks SB is lying about being Watcher, since he's posted since then and hasn't unvoted.

As someone who's claimed Vig as SK (and won ), it's a gambit you make later in the game, not on D1, and especially not in a situation where it isn't even necessary to claim.

Elie, why are you still voting Manix, since your last post implied you no longer thought he was scum? Looking at Ether's posts, his first vote is for Grass. He votes him due to being part of the votepile on Manix, but never really explains why the votepile is bad in the first place, or why Grass is worse than the other people who voted for him. After that he votes me for harping too much about Shinori lying, but other than that being sort of a misrep, he also says later that his latter votes don't really mean much, and also doesn't really comment on much of anything, just handwaving it as a misunderstanding.

I'll wait for Elie's rebuttal to Manix to make a judgement there, but Manix, IIRC when you placed your vote on Strege it was mainly a prodvote. Do you actually find him scummy enough to lynch? Looking at Kay's posts, I don't really like them. In the first one, she simultaneously attacked both me and Shinori, when we were arguing with each other at the time, with no consideration for why that might be a bus. She called my arguments nonsense, but then voted Shinori for not reacting to them properly? Then when she attacks Shinori next, she basically uses more or less the exact same arguments as me, so it's rather odd that she would call my arguments about his contradiction there nonsense.

SB, as Shinori will probably choose to vote you solely in a not-me-over-me if the votes between you two are tied, you should probably claim before you go to sleep, since we don't know whether or not we'll be granted an extension.

Just because we don't need a hammer doesn't mean we don't need an extension. My reads haven't been that good this phase and the only people I would really be okay with lynching are Strege and Ether, because upon my reread I don't really think that SB is scummy. Balcerzak also needs to post, but the one post he made I didn't really find scummy, and if something needs to be done, it'll be done by the mod. I don't particularly want to lynch someone on D1 just for being inactive.

SB, since you're here and you've read my case, what do you think about it? We don't need a majority for a lynch, but an extension would probably still be good.

For me at least, the first link goes to Post 94 and the second link goes to Post 153.

I pretty much picked someone at random for my RVS vote. I didn't really bother looking for alignment stuff on N0 because after talking to a few people I realized that most people, if not all, didn't have an alignment or role yet. So the only way I've factored in N0 has been to try and find odd changes in behaviour from N0 to D1, which is why I was pushing Shinori for a while. Now, ##Vote: Strege In his first content-post, he calls out SB and Scorri. What he said about Scorri there is true, but in his most recent post, I feel like he's not really making any attempt to update his reads with what has happened to that point. It's true that at the point of his first post, all Scorri had really done was say her viewpoint on RVS, but by that next post, she'd said stuff about Shinori and produced some content. Not a lot, admittedly, but enough that his original point was no longer applicable. As for SB, he says that SB is scummy for particularly focusing on Cam for being inactive when others have been so as well, but he's sort of misrepping SB here. SB was pressuring Cam for having low content despite making posts- the exact same thing that Strege is calling SB and Scorri out for. His stance on SB in the latest post was weird because he pointed out good stuff about SB while still saying it wasn't enough and keeping his vote there. And then later in the post he also agrees with SB, his vote, on something. It's not something that's disallowed, but still kinda offputting. He also has a post in the middle which is literally just a one-line question, which is bad because there were around 24 hours and 40 posts between his first post and that one, so quoting one post out of all that and asking a question about that is bleh. Both that question, and the one to Elie in the recent post, are kind of just there and don't seem to have much of a purpose.

I saw Blitz in here earlier and now he's not here anymore. >_> Anyways I still really dislike Shinori's Blitz vote but I agree with Manix in that his reaction to the votes seems townie. He's consistently asking why people are voting him and trying to get the votes off, while simultaneously providing some content, whereas Scumnori normally sort of rolls over and dies after a certain point. I also sort of like the case against SB so ugh ##Unvote. That last post against Shinori was just an effort to explain my earlier thoughts; they're not what I was thinking of him at the moment of the post. Felt I should say that if people think it's kind of a 180. I normally really really hate empty unvotes but I've been in a car for like 10 hours today and I'm just not up to mafia right now; sorry guys. I'll reread SB, Strege, and Scorri tomorrow, and hopefully by then, Scorri will have made another post.

Also, someone was saying something about how I was prodding Manix for being too logical or something. That's not what I said (or at least not what I meant to say). What I meant to say is- logic is something that can be shown easily by town or mafia because it's not actually scumhunting; it's just reasoning. So if a good chunk of Manix's posts just consist of that, they're not really posts that are helping town catch scum, just noise that looks good. With that explanation of my previous opinion of Manix out of the way, my newer one is that his tone seems town to me. IDK I'm not good at catching scumnix, but not immediately interested in him anymore.

Sorry guys, I had to make an unexpected trip today that took the entire day. Anyways, this is what I meant to say. I have no problems that Shinori didn't want to answer the question as to who his targets were. My problem is that he's trying to make it seem like a scummy question when it's not. If it could help reveal alliances, that's bad for mafia, so if Blitz is asking that question, that's hardly something to vote him for, is it? Yes, Blitz wouldn't (or shouldn't) have known his alliance at that point, but it was regardless a move with not very much future scum intent in it. Yet Shinori saw fit to try to reaction test Blitz for it... why? It just seems like him trying to make that vote out to be something great. Cam is just generally apathetic to the point where I'm not sure why he plays mafia (sorry but it's true), and I'm kind of tired of attempting to get a read on him when he's shown that he just doesn't care all that much as both town and mafia.

I have no problem revealing my alliance- I'm town. Why do you care about that? If you're talking about role, the passive/active thing is a much more direct crumb of your role than some experimental mechanics that we don't really know anything about. I've seen Xinny making a post for a while now, so waiting for that, since I don't think she's posted since RVS. I see Strege reading the thread too.

Actually, now that I think about it, I know that you, Shinori, have specifically used the passive/active info trade in other OC games (Void). Why are you so wary of a similar trade here?

Yeah, and? I never made an attempt to hide the fact that I asked people who they were shipping themselves with. I told anyone who told me one or more of their targets the same amount of my targets, sometimes more. I saw it as an even information trade, just as one might trade whether their role was active or passive with someone else. Idk, I just don't see anything right now that's particularly egregious.

Of course people, including town, lie. My issue isn't with that- it's that Shinori didn't seem to have a reason for lying. If he were going to lie to me, why just out it randomly later? What strategic purpose does that serve? I feel like he was just trying to make that vote seem more than it was.

There has to be a purpose to lying though. What exactly was the purpose of not telling the truth (or the entire truth, anyways) when I asked, and then revealing it randomly later? Personally, I read the bit about Grassbridger as pressuring him. Looking over Manix's posts, his logic regarding RVS and stuff has been sound, but I feel like too many of his posts have just been logic. The only real content he's had is some analysis of the Grassbridger vote against him, but he dropped that fairly quickly and never actually voted for him. In fact, there was a period of time where he was still attacking GB, after he'd outed his full reasoning for voting me, where he was still voting me. Not sure what the point of keeping your vote on me there was. After that, his votes have just been prodding lurkers; first Cam and then Strege. I prodded Cam too, so I'm not saying that it's scummy by itself, but that 2/3 of his votes have been that is slightly meh.

I'm going to do this: ##Unvote, ##Vote: Shinori Even disregarding the Blitz vote, I don't like his SB vote. You're allowed to leave your vote on your RVS target, and SB did actually pressure someone else other than Cam as well in that post- he attacked Grassbridger. Voting someone isn't the only way to pressure them, or you'd only ever be able to pressure one person at a time.

Cam, you're defending yourself against what I say, but not actually going to any effort to address or correct the root cause of my vote- the fact that you're not saying anything about what's happening in this thread. Maybe you don't necessarily have to find anything that's happened so far scummy. That doesn't mean you can't talk about it and give your opinion. So my vote stays here until you do that. I don't personally like Shinori's explanation for the Blitz vote, idk. If he didn't want to out that it was over some N0 fishing when I asked him, okay, but then why do it when he did? Presumably he was waiting for something from Blitz. What happened to that?

You said earlier that it was just general Blitz stuff and not pertaining to this game... Omission is one thing, lying outright is another.

Why is that? Since then, there was further argument between Manix and Scorri, and Manix was voted for by two people. Why do you have nothing serious to say about that? Shinori is also guilty of not really commenting on what had happened, but you followed it up with another post just now that said nothing, so I'll keep my vote here for now. I find it funny that Manix saw something wrong with what I said before we even had alignments, but I don't see anything wrong with what he posted in-thread. What he said about RVS is correct and Eclipse did say something about how some people's role PMs might differ, so I don't really see it as a slip. I also don't think that town have to state everything about their vote right away, especially this early.