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also another instance of shinori using his in-between-games time to defend himself as opposed to scumhunting @baldrick- I just can't take the part about not having time to reread Mack or not paying attention to his posts at face value because if you were suspicious of him you should have been paying more attention to his posts while reading through the thread the first time. The dissonance between how you treat Mack vs Shinori and Marth, not just at the moment of switching away from Gaius but most of the time you were voting Ken, is what makes me think you just forgot about him, which makes the most sense if the read was fabricated. Regardless I'll echo Sully in asking you what your read on Mack is now. Also, if you didn't have time to read Gaius's posts fully why not just say that when voting him? I can't see why you would make up stuff about him not giving reads or content. can you link/quote the posts where you felt Marth's reasons to vote Bartozio were inconsistent? Also, if that's the case wrt Marth, why not change your vote from Ken to him (before the Gaius sub that is)? Do you still think Marth is scummy? fair enough on the bit about not actually defending Mack while voting Shinori. I think you linked to the wrong post in your latest vote against Shinori though.

here and here are posts detailing why your case against Bartozio was weak; here and here are posts about why I thought your case against me was weak so don't say I haven't been giving counterpoints I have a slight townread on Bartozio yeah but more than having specific reasons for thinking he's town, I think your reasons for scumreading him are mostly bad. The strongest part of your case is that he didn't do much other than votepark Ken and should have tried harder to reread the game rather than re-vote Ken. This is true but coming from you it reads hollow when you have several posts saying "I'm just skimming in between League games right now". Also, why is that worse than other people who never even unvoted Ken in the first place?

These are the suspicious things Mack has done IMO: 1) His Shinori unvote while still finding him scummy is weird but he says in that post that he was unvoting because Shinori was at L-1. This was very wrong because Shinori wasn't anywhere close to being lynched, but why would he do this as scum and make more work for himself wrt having to read more people and stuff? I don't see the scum intent unless Shinori is his buddy. 2) His post where he was just like "man I'm too lazy to read more so I'm just going to vote Ken since I've been finding him scummy" is bad obviously but also an understandable sentiment I think. I would probably do the same and forgo rereading if I weren't a masochist. 3) In general I think in his past few games as town he's been around more often and posting more frequently even when he didn't really have as many opinions. Here his posting is a lot more infrequent. 2 and 3 aren't great but they're not enough for me to lynch him on given that his other posts have been good I think. 1 isn't something I'd vote on without Shinori's flip. A Baldrick/Mack/Shinori scumteam is very neat but I'd want to lynch the other two first. cut by him, hopefully his next post with reads will be more illuminating. I do find Shinori suspicious on his own as well; I just don't have anything to add that I didn't say yesterday. The trouble is just that it's a bit hard for me to specifically pinpoint scum intent but I think all his main cases have been weak overall, particularly the Bartozio one, and the secondary stuff is shallow. I think in Kemono Friends where Shinori was town, his reads were off but the cases themselves were mostly good. Here the cases aren't good. Also, I think his ratio of defending himself to finding scumteams has been off. I'll respond to Baldrick's latest few posts after dinner. I don't really understand why you guys are defending me when nobody is voting me anymore

I don't think you're suspicious anymore; I just think that trying to determine Bart's alignment based on the unflipped alignment of people defending him ED1 isn't a good line of thinking because there are too many possibilities due to all the unknowns. Firstly, the people who were defending him could be scum, and secondly, if he was scum his buddies might not have seen the need to defend him if people who were town were defending him. another question to Baldrick- can you explain more of why you think Marth's actions had scum intent vs Shinori's?

another thing; "I felt like I had to justify voting Gaius" from Baldrick reads as overly self-conscious. It would have been perfectly fine to just say "gonna vote Gaius to get the lynch" or something. I don't exactly get your Bart logic Marth. I'm not scumreading Bart but town can also just be wrong and defend scum? The fact that there may not have been scum defending him is looking too far ahead wrt associative reads without flips. Also no offence but your early Bart vote wasn't good

I was also kind of surprised by the Prims kill but I think another possibility is that the mafia thought he had a power role since he was so vehemently against claiming at the end of the day 1. @Baldrick- active lurking is posting stuff in the thread while not giving opinions. not posting at all is just being inactive, even if they are active elsewhere in the forum. Do you actually find mack scummy? Even now you're not saying that you do, just that they could be buddies. You haven't mentioned him except indirectly while pushing Shinori/Marth since early on and you didn't mention him when talking about who to vote when switching away from Gaius after he subbed in. honestly feels like you just forgot about Mack entirely. Wanting to let Marth push him because you didn't know Mack well sounds like an excuse because you didn't know Ken either and he was your main scumread. @Marth- too lazy to re-type my Shinori stuff from last phase but I think his votes have been quite weak, especially the Bartozio one. I also felt that at parts he was prioritizing defending himself over scumhunting when he was busy.

@Sully- most likely scum have a Janitor, which is a role that allows them to hide flips of people they kill. It's almost always limited use, probably 1x given the size of the game.

I think Shinori is tentatively my #2 scumread over Sully atm. I think Baldrick and Shinori being buddies is quite conceivable given Baldrick never votes Shinori despite pushing him for a significant amount of time until a point in the game where it was pointless. The bit about Marth's actions having more definite scum intent over Shinori is also under-explained IMO

anyways after rereading the thread in the last 30 minutes before deadline all night, I have come to: ##Vote: Baldrick so I mentioned last phase why I thought Baldrick was the worst votepark offender. In hindsight this really should have stuck out to me a lot earlier but his vote on Ken is like bordering on a policy vote. He says it's purely because Ken doesn't have reads, and that he was starting to suspect Sully as well but then didn't just because Sully had reads. This isn't a great vote/line of thinking given he's talking about either first-time (Sully) or still very new (Ken) players here; it's worse as basically the sole reason to keep that vote on Ken for so long, given that he says he doesn't think Ken was overly reactionary or defensive. His posts around that time are all pretty good (for the first 24 hours or so) but then after that he has several posts where his side content during that votepark is just "I agree with X about Y" or asking other people for their opinions on someone: here and here, for example. In some cases (notably Shinori and Marth) he engages more with that person and tries to push them after agreeing with someone else's case on them (Shinori stuff is decent, Marth stuff is a bit weak), but doesn't really do that much with Mack. The other thing is that after saying Mack is in "would-lynch" territory he starts pseudo-defending him while attacking Shinori and basically doesn't say why he stops scumreading Mack at any point. So I think it was unfair of me to say that Baldrick did less than Bartozio while voteparking Ken, but to some extent I think that makes his votepark worse? He had other, better, reasons for voting Shinori but sticks to "new player didn't give reads in the first 12 hours" and doesn't switch votes to Marth until Gaius subs in. I'm also not sure why he switches votes from Marth to Shinori, his initial reason for voting Marth was that his actions had more definite scum intent. He says something about "consolidating" on Shinori even though Shinori had no votes so I don't know what that's about. What put him over the top for me though was his last post or two before deadline. The post where Baldrick re-votes Gaius's slot near phase end pings me because he says it's scummy for Gaius to try and defend the residual cases against Ken vs putting out new content, which exaggerates the amount by which Gaius was defending Ken and basically dismisses the other content on Prims and other people that Gaius had produced. This wasn't quite the swing vote (that was Refa) but basically guaranteed that it would be Gaius getting lynched. this bit also irks me though I'm not sure there's scum intent: "I have an opinion on the prims wagon but it might be better to save for postgame." also doesn't make sense because Prims was one of the leading wagons so why wouldn't he share? Even if it was shitty maybe let other people make that assessment? plus if it was so shitty that nobody else would be swayed by it, maybe he shouldn't be either?

I'd like Bartozio to also give reads before the end of the phase

mich is the real easy lynchbait though also I think early on he had a post with several reads in it and it was like the best post he's ever made so I'm more inclined to think he's town even if he hasn't done a lot since then?

I don't think that's really true if the person who subs in for the scummy slot is subbing in with like 15 hours left because a lot of the time people don't have another person to switch to so they're like "well the guy who subbed in is posting better but the previous guy still stunk so this is safer than a turbo"; basically what's happening with Gaius right now. A good example I think is SB in I want to say Fakeclaim? He subbed in for a super scummy slot and tried to at first just make posts and it didn't work, and then tried to make big roleclaim plays to avoid the lynch. That also didn't work, but that kind of go-for-broke thinking is what is more likely IMO

actually while I was typing up the Gaius VT stuff, I realized that I think based on that he's more likely to be town than Bartozio. So although I think he too is more likely to be town than not, if people are really unwilling to lynch Sully, I would rather turbo Bartozio (or Baldrick but Bartozio is more likely to get support I guess) than lynch Gaius.

I'm also not really down to lynch Gaius because of his VT claim. In general I think scum are less likely to fake VT early on in the game, but I think in this situation especially, where the odds were stacked against him, he would have tried to claim some kind of role to stop the lynch against him or get a counterclaim at least so that scum would know a role. Bartozio, mainly just looking for reads from you. In future if you don't have a lot of time to post it's always better to use it on scumhunting than defending yourself, especially considering there wasn't a lot of pressure on you.

basically it feels like Sully just kind of retracted some of the stuff based on getting a lot of flak for it but is still trying to justify reasoning with stuff like "I didn't see it as very strong because you were also talking about other people" which I don't like I think Bart isn't scum because his approach to Ken seems similar to Prims where he was re-justifying the Ken vote every time he came back to the thread, it's just that 1) he came back less often than Prims and 2) his reasons for re-justifying the read and his other posts in his bursts of activity weren't as good as Prims I don't think either of those are really indicative of him being scum because he has a naturally lurky playstyle, which I think has contributed to his mislynch in both NOC games at least, and he's still new so I don't expect as high a level of analysis. I think Baldrick is the worst votepark offender because I think his re-justification is the weakest (Ken just isn't posting reads) vs Bartozio's (Ken is trying to shut down discussion) or Prims's (Ken is super reactionary to pressure) and while he was waiting for Ken to return it feels like the comments he was making about Marth and Shinori were just comments vs trying to actually determine if they were scum? But, I think his later stuff after Gaius subbed in about Shinori is better than the posts Bart made since then.

eh I don't think Gaius or Prims are good lynches. Gaius's content seems decent to me although I disagree with the Shinori stuff. rereading Sully's defence again and it's just like... fine, he mentally exaggerated some stuff. then he says that he missed my Marth stuff, but... how? My point in linking all those posts is to show how many of those posts there were. Plus I was voting Marth at one point so for him to say that he didn't see it as a very strong thing on my part doesn't make any sense. The reasoning for the Prims case isn't good but I think that's a fair case for a newer player to make. this is still a good lynch

i dunno I'm not feeling this Prims lynch like I think one of the reasons his play might seem more apathetic than normal is that rather than posting consistently all the time he's making posts in small bursts so it feels like he's gone for large portions but I think he's still contributing a decent amount to the thread so yeah he doesn't have a lot of side-reads but every time he makes one of those mini-bursts he's re-justifying his Ken vote, and his reasoning for the Ken vote is better than others'. Those mini-bursts are normally also talking about other players a bit, and yeah he's not pushing them hard but I'm okay with that given that I think it's been kind of hard to get reads this day phase.

ok come on lol you've led turbolynches many times. I'm not saying you should claim right away but you don't get to call turbolynches inherently atrocious play without looking at any of the individual votes

I got cut by like ten posts fuck phoneposting Why is Prims worse than Baldrick and Bartozio for voteparking Ken? Is it just that he's held to a higher standard of play?

@kirsche- idk abojt you but I skim thr first time around to develop gut feelings and then try to justify those by reading the thread in more detail the second time. Shinori gives me a bad feeling, in a stronger way than Baldrick bc with Baldrick it's just that he's kind of lurking. With Shinori it's that I think his cases have been mostly weaker than I would expect from him. It's just that in both cases there isnt that much where I'm like 'this is actively scummy'. I wanted to let Bartozio respond to most of it first before going more into why Shinori's case is bad. The bit about Bartozio being suspicious for not having anything better to vote for than going back to Ken is bad because iirc Shinori also wasnt voting anyone at the time because he wasnt sure who to vote. Yes, Bartozio should have looked more for other stuff later but this line of attack is still kind of hypocritical. The bit about Bartozio waiting 30 mins to vote him is also really weak because pointing something out and then realizing a little bit later that it actually bothers you a lot is something pretty common that happens all the time. Shinori also mentions several times that Bartozio sheeped people while voting him and I'm pretty sure that's wrong. He did sheep on the initial Ken vote but he had separate reasons for staying on it later. I'll reread Prims once I get home but my feeling was that he had the strongest reason for parking Ken and most of why I didn't like Ken was directly based on his posts.

Sully's posts make me feel a bit better about him wrt general tone but thr overall stuff he's talking about still doesnt make sense to me but maybe I'm biased since it's about me. Phoneposting right now sorry so it's tough to go back and respond point by point. I feel like I'm mainly waiting for Gaius to come back at this point to make a decision there. I dont think Shinori's Bart case is good. The point wrt LG isnt really a contradiction; you can feel bad about lynching someone right after they sub in but still want to lynch them because their slot was scummy. I imagine that's basically what most people feel about that slot right now. I'll let Bart respond to the rest. My feeling about Shinori basically is that I just think he's scum but cant put my finger on anything in particular where I'm like 'this has scum intent' other than too much time defending himself. His cases just arent very strong.

yeah I guess Bartozio is another guy who I just assumed had posted more recently but since there have been so many posts in the past 12 hours, he hasn't actually posted since like Page 7. His opinions are all fine; there just aren't very many of them. via, if you don't think Sully is scum, there's no point to just voting him for associative reads. for one thing even if he flips town that won't mean that someone on his wagon has to be scum

You have to realize how frustrating this is to me lol. What makes you so sure he's town? All new players are an easy mislynch, relatively anyways. Is there anything about Sully in particular that would make him easy for scum to frame?

ok I missed that part where he also said the same thing about you so it's less actively scummy due to not targeting me specifically with it, but the logic as a whole is still bad because it begins with the premise that people are more likely to be scum just for voting him

I guess a bit more about Sully because he's like a top townread apparently. Sully's play doesn't sit right with me because it just doesn't feel like it should for a newbtown. At the start of the game he was sort of passive and willing to hang around and wait back, which I thought was fairly in line with a new player and so when people were first a bit suspicious of him I didn't really see it. But since then he's become a lot more aggressive and that kind of shift just sits wrong with me? I suppose this change in play is what's causing people to be townreading him more, but it's done the opposite for me. I'm not really sure because I don't think anybody's given an explanation for why they think Sully is town except kirsche, but that consists mostly of a silly confirmation post thing and them agreeing on reads. So I went looking for more concrete scummy things he'd done even if they weren't exact explanations for the shift in his play but maybe those things just seem more like bad play things to you guys rather than scummy things? I'd really like more detail here from Prims, Via, and kirsche in specific. Baldrick, what do you think of Marth's later play starting with the Sully vote? okay I've been reading/making mafia posts non-stop for almost three hours so I'm going to take a break.