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this sentence structure is way too complex for me to parse right now

I'm sorry Boron. If it helps I still think you're town. You should look at other people though; I feel like you're focusing too much into things revolving around your Gaius case. What is your opinion on eclipse and the wagon on her? my gut reaction to most of Marth's post and looking back through my memory is that he feels tonally town in his past few posts. But I feel like I'm too tired at the moment so I'm going to look at it again tomorrow morning to make sure I'm not missing something glaring. feels kind of weird that Iris was like "GUYS LET'S GO" at the beginning of the game and then hasn't posted for the past 24 hours.

paper, marth, why do you guys think people are putting in so much effort thinking about their RVS posts and votes? If anything scum put a little more effort at that stage because they're more self-conscious. There are two types of votes at that stage- total jokes and something that's slightly bothersome that you sort of stretch to get things going.

@Crysta- I switched because I thought that Marth's defence was ok, and half my case was based on me misreading. I didn't comment on Marth's other content because I thought it was ok and I was starting to feel worse about Manix. But tbh I feel like I'm not reading anything correctly this game (or maybe just not Marth's posts) the first two times around, because I reread Marth's post that Refa quoted because of Crysta's question and his eclipse case is kind of bad. The RVS thing is just hugely overblown; eclipse was shitposting at a time when the most serious vote in the game was my vote on Prims. Linking it to refuge in audacity feels like him trying to bolster the case with Fancy Terminology even though it's not at all a case of refuge in audacity. Why does scum eclipse even need to shitpost in RVS if she doesn't want to? The other part of people's eclipse case is why she voted Crysta over Gaius, and I would have done the same thing between the two. I'll wait for eclipse to answer before giving my thoughts on that though. yolo ##Unvote, ##Vote: Marth come at me I still expect more from Manix. My point was like... yes, Manix can be lazy and surface level, but only when he's not engaged. And I feel like Manix is at the point of his mafia career where he's normally less engaged when he's scum. I know how that stage feels; I'm there too, Prims is there, and Paperblade has probably been there since before I started playing mafia. shrug. I don't think Marth and Manix are buddies though. I haven't really read Boron's Gaius case tbh. Gaius feels town and Boron's posts are too long for me. yolo ##Unvote, ##Vote: Marth come at me

I don't think Manix is lazy id he's engaged. 'Wouldn't scum manix be less lazy' is kind of counterintuitive WIFOM IMO. Manix why is Blitz worse than either Marth or I? I guess I see Paper's Prims point but I feel like Blitz's one line became a much bigger deal cuz he never came back to dissipate or aggravate the wagon on him with more content posts. It was still RVS at the time that vote was made. I'm again not getting this argument that Manix is lazy or surface level. Maybe I'm remembering ye olde days and not his recent meta but I feel like Manix when he's engaged tries super hard and analyzes things a lot, sometimes even overanalyzing them. And I disagree that there wasn't anything to talk about in his post where he defended his laziness.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Manix this is a better vote after Marth's response. Manix's vote on the Blitz wagon was the laziest, and then when called out on it just gave a reason for being lazy without actually doing or saying anything more now that he was back in the thread. I agree with Eclipse that Crysta's question is pointless (more on this later) but at least there's questioning. Eclipse's point that Manix's vote is the least bad because he was vote-stacking is null because vote stacking has diminishing marginal returns. Lazily voting to stack on someone who was already the largest wagon by at least a few votes isn't good. Crysta can say "but I think Blitz's Gaius vote wasn't a joke!" except it's like kind of obvious that it is. More to the point, Blitz can just say "yeah it was a joke" and then what is Crysta's response? It's basically to say "oh I see" or say "NO I DON'T BELIEVE YOUR FIRST POST ONE PAGE INTO THE GAME WAS A JOKE". @gaius- why is chainsawing bad? Looking for scum on a wagon you think is bad is a good strategy.

Strawman's vote on me made me reread Marth's posts and I'm not going to lie, I just realized that Marth quoted Refa in his Crysta vote. For some reason I read over Marth's vote twice earlier and came away with the thought that he'd just said "Vote Crysta" with nothing else in the post at all... Blitz's question there makes more sense now. That part of my case doesn't hold any more then, but I still think the other part is valid. I'm agreeing with the Blitz cases but questioning the wagon because generally speaking, wagons don't build up that fast ED1 on scum. If they do, they normally involve scum starting some early distancing that townies then jump on. Otherwise, scum don't pile onto their buddy who has 2-3 votes already. It doesn't get them much bussing cred and it normally results in their buddy being lynched, particularly when like Blitz they're not good at defending themselves. I don't see any reason to think Blitz and Prims are buddies right now though, so I'm leaning on the other side. That being said, the original reason for the Blitz vote makes sense to me, which is why I'm kind of conflicted. I don't get the claim that Blitz's question was a joke; only Blitz can say, but the wording or style didn't seem ironic in any way. @Strawman- what's wrong with aggressive questioning?

@Boron- I don't really understand why you don't understand the Blitz case? It's about as simple as it gets. Blitz asked Iris why she would want to advance the game, when advancing the game is inherently good. I agree with the Blitz case but it's like... a lot of votes pretty quickly. Manix's vote in particular felt lazy, although maybe that was just because it was last. My feelings about Marth are that he RVS voted with like no joke justification or anything, which feels kind of weird, especially as enough people had posted by then that most people would have made some joke response. The Eclipse prod I would also expect to come with a vote, because why wouldn't you? Just feels kind of off. Refa, do you still think Crysta is suspicious?

dark magician girl, defender (sort of) of sceptiles everywhere ##Unvote, Vote: Marth rereading a little it kind of RVS-bugs me that he voted without any joke justification or anything at all, and then is prodding Eclipse without a vote on her, like it's all just a formality.

shitposting takes enthusiasm! also yeah I considered that but I also didn't want to just unvote and I didn't have a better reason for anybody else so SHRUG @iris- marth posted tho

@prims- well mostly you like to stack votes in RVS so I was wondering why you chose to make a bad joke instead of stack votes on Iris but your latest few posts have shown enough RVS EnthusiasmTM for now ##Unvote, ##Vote: Gaius everyone knows switching your avatar in the middle of a game is something only scum do LET'S MEET UP IRIS I'M NOT A CREEPY INTERNET GUY I PROMISE

##Vote: Prims why so lazy

I agree; I think Emma Watson's acting skills get overhyped because she's pretty and was the only one out of the 3 HP stars that continued to give their 100% past the 3rd or 4th movie. But I still like her because she's pretty she supports a lot of cool initiatives, so I hope she does well. I like(d) Dan Stevens on Downton Abbey so we'll see about him/

also can we call this game pup mafia?

where in CANADA are you Iris?

yeah I don't know how you guys can overlap when there are more than 700 pokemon; I also got the first on my list.

confirming

You know what's most against the integrity of the game? Not trying to win. I don't think Izhuark would have won if he'd tried fighting you, but the point is that he didn't try. I also wouldn't have cared if you guys did a 3-nation alliance. I had the opportunity to do it with Makaze before you did and chose not to because I couldn't trust him. That's how it works; and if I get beaten by an alliance then I didn't play well enough and get strong enough allies on my side.

Any idea when this is going to start SB?

You (and Izhuark) can say what you want but the point is that Izhuark was your bitch all game, long after it was incredibly obvious you had no plan to tie with anyone, and most importantly, didn't try to win. He didn't need to backstab you (although it probably would have been the best move). You guys easily could have made a deal to not attack each other until Makaze had been eliminated and go from there. I'm not really mad at Makaze (for that, anyways) because he was going to lose no matter what.

I'm not salty I lost; I'm salty that Izhuark didn't play to win. What the fuck is this shit with Makaze and Izhuark surrendering and letting Proto win by himself?

"I propose a draw where the only person who wins is me"

Sure, but the reason people thought he was town was because of how it would combine with the stone kill if he was scum, and it wouldn't have. You said something about how he used his doublevote and his interactions but it wasn't really an argument that people other than you and Manix were buying. I guess it's valid that we should have considered how the role interactions might be misconstrued, but that's a separate issue. @SB- The reason you didn't have control was because your main way of screwing with the town got lynched D1.

Also, no cardflips meant everybody operated on Via misreading their role PM and not realizing they were going to die N1 no matter what, which didn't have much of an effect on the game but was kind of funny. I almost told them to reread their role, but when they explicitly said to Manix that they didn't redirect kills even though the wording is "This same radiance will draw every single action towards you on Night One" we decided to let it go.

Yeah we underestimated the clears from successful protection of the stone. The stone mechanic was inherently swingy, which we knew but shrug (more on this at the end). It still ended up being townsided, but that being said, there are some things that people are forgetting that might have caused the game to be less of a town stomp: 1) D1 mafia lynches are bad for mafia. Who knew? More generally I don't think any of the mafia members played very well this game. Marth got a bit unlucky, but Crysta wasn't there much and SB was pretty disinterested. I don't think there was enough communication either, especially after Marth died. @SB- There was no long-term gain pretending to be Masons, and the fallout was always going to be on you and not FK. TBH I felt you just wanted to be lazy and coast. Also, Via's role was helpful for the mafia N1. You got to kill an obvtown and clear person (without which you would have killed Strawman, who later got mislynched, may I remind you) and the town roles all got hooked. 2) More on D1 maflynches being bad; the hijacker and the thief were complementary in that if scum suspected who had the stone but didn't know where it would go they could use the hijacker, and if they suspected who would be getting it but didn't know who had it, they could use the thief. But the hijacker got lynched D1 and the mafia misread their thief role and thought they were supposed to target the passer. Town lucked out there, because they were very predictable with their stone choices. N2 was probably the turning point of the game- the Manix -> Prims pass was a terrible decision given in-thread interactions that frankly could have lost the game for town if the mafia hadn't also screwed up. 3) Continuing from the last point, mafia getting hand of the stone would have been more likely to lead to a false negative via hijack or thief than to actually lead to mafia,. If the mafia had just been given it, they could have delayed the breaking to frame someone too. 4) The Clarinets clear was kind of a wrong clear that ended up being right anyways. His doublevote didn't work in *YLO so it wouldn't have comboed with the kill if he'd been scum and mafia had broken the stone, and couriering someone on the night they die is easy to fake. It's unfortunate for scum when that happens on a mislynch target. The main changes I would make would be limiting the L'Arachel role to 1 neighbourize after death, giving Crysta a better fake, possibly limiting the Tracker, and having full flips (with informed information snipped out). The point of the Crysta role and the fake having a 1x cop was to be a red herring and make people think about an ITP, but it really only messed with the mafia because the town just assumed Crysta was lying about the 1x cop since we did cardflips. And as Prims pointed out, the stone mechanic was the cop. Also it didn't make much sense for there to be an ITP in the setup, which we probably would have caught, but the fake (and the 1x cop being added to Crysta's JoaT) were last minute changes because the previous fake overlapped even more. And cardflips were also kind of last-minute. I considered potentially reducing the swinginess of the stone by lowering its powers, but IMO for the setup to be interesting the stone had to be swingy. Otherwise it would have been a low-power setup centered around a mechanic with a limited effect on the game, and then what's the point of even having it? I don't think it's an unfair thing for the setup to swing around because it was directly related to which side could out-think the other.