guedesbrawl

Had to double post because this showed up as i posted. First of all, you are working with MCorrin and FRobin as if they had the weight of a character with their own slot. Don't be stupid. Second, IS/Nintendo would never let you not use Lucina, one of Alm or Celica, and probably Anna. Be realistic. Thirdly, you excluded just clones, but added unique people in their place. Be realistic. There is a reason we got clones in the first place. For example, in Smash Bros. Melee, director Masahiro Sakurai said he had the option of adding 1 unique character, or 6 clones. As a musou is not as complex as a fighting game, I imagine 4 is a reasonable number of clones to equal a unique character. Fourth: The Valkyrie class line was already effectively represented through Elise (who does it far better than Mist who strays a lot from what valkyries are and is literally Staff!Xander). Strategist is literally the same thing as the normal valkyrie. Not that you'd know given that you thought different avatar genders somehow could equal a full new character. Don't be ignorant. I'll reword what I said before: you severely misunderstand how game development works, how the business behind the games work, and severely underestimate key aspects of game design.

I think Lissa quite comfortably represents both cleric and fighter, Merc isn't there but really, Chrom's moveset is an equivalent. (This is a bit of self awareness, because the best reps for those 2 classes are our protags from Tellius). Considering the number of slots, it's a compromise. Or that's what i'd like to say, but we could've gotten another weapon for the OC Twins, and as cool as a dual blade moveset for Navarre is, we really didn't need Myrmidon represented in two movesets (that and Ryoma's). Though i've heard that Navarre was a merc originally, so... it's coming???? lol And the lack of lances doesn't suddenly mean the Cavalier class isn't there between Xander and Frederick, pretty sure Frederick also throws a lance in one of his moves. Honestly, it's like saying Camilla suddenly doesn't count as a wyvern because of no lances. Just importance or just popularity? point. Problem is, all the lords of all the games hit both aspects (This includes all of fates's royalty), and few other characters manage to accomplish that. On top of being the most recognizable characters of their games, I guarantee you: a full-series roster would be 90%+ Lords. That's how they'd build it, and that's what any reasonable people would be expecting. You are mixing up arguments. I didn't say fates excludes the other games because of uniqueness: I even gave you a full-series roster (Except for jugdral) that had all 10 royals and was just barely bigger than the intended base game, for example. Uniqueness is just a huge edge that (when coupled with Popularity, Recognizability, Recency and Importance...which are all in Fates's side) would guarantee the presence of those people in the roster compared to any other character of the same class tree that they compete against. 6 is probably enough if you just want to satisfy the fans, but other concerns like gameplay which is just as important as the fanservice... you still end up with at least 9 royals. Hino Unless, of course, you don't care about dumbing down the gameplay with lesser choices, which is an aspect that has equal if not more weight than fanservice given that it's what makes people keep playing and the fun factor building momentum. Having so many games ensures all of them will be half-assed for DLC, have too much content ignored for DLC/sequels like you tried to do, or improperly represented because of missing key characters. Tellius in particular would suffer a lot, as would Fates, given the wide range of unique+important people both games have. Splitting the series into chunks is much more manageable for the devs AND will ultimately give us more for each individual game. They had Celica without Alm and Lyn without ELiwood/Hector. As a non-focus extra, Ephraim can definitively make it alone. He shouldn't, but there's precedent. And please stop acting like they can't tackle all that we have plus 2 new FEs within 3 games, if not 2 depending on how far they take DLC. I already demonstrated it to you.

It's not a bold and arrogant statement, and has nothing to do with exploration. You are thinking about characterization and not what truly matters: gameplay. It's about looking at all the male royals and seeing that one can become an mama effing dragon and the others have fancy PRF weapons with elemental properties that nobody in their respective class trees have an answer to except maybe some ancient japan-only character from Jugdral that would never get in anytime soon anyways. It's looking at Camilla and not at her chest and realizing she uses Axes AND Magic. It's looking at Sakura and realizing no other character can be a Takumi clone and also bring staff-utility to the table, and applying the same logic to Elise from Leo. Hinoka... is mostly there to complete the quartets tbh, but she is the second most important/relevant lance peggy we have, who can be cloned from Caeda unlike Elincia. Thanks to everyone else's uniqueness, there aren't that many people we can clone others from. I like how you think fans of this 75% of FE cannot be fans of the other 25%. And the way they decided to go about it gives us all FE in about 3 games: FEW1: SD, Awakening, Fates. Valentia will most likely get DLC here because of timing and because that game's roster is extremely limited in moveset potential. FEW2: Switch,PoR+RD, FE7 + Roy. Realistically speaking what people truly want from FE6 is Roy, and Roy alone solely because our boy is badass in smash . Like Jugdral, this part of the series really depends on a remake dropping, and I find it unlikely we'll get much from it even then because the only other people who serve any purpose someone else isn't covering by then would be... no one. That's not to say Zephiel, Idoun and Fa can't be added to do stuff, but we'll have people doing their jobs already. (The way Tiki was done here makes me think a Dragon Laguz is the only other Dragon-type we can get, tho. And... I suppose maybe a Nomad could be used, but in an action game, I think Bows with mobility would be too imbalanced against fliers, both for and against the player ) New Mystery is likely not going to be remade anytime soon, but the only truly relevant picks from there are Katarina and Hardin anyways. Kris... is in a delicate position mostly because of their class--that and i believe everyone hates them. Jugdral's games, if remade, will probably only arrive in time for FEW3. But Heroes has introduced these people to the public, so they could drop as a DLC pack by FEW2. Magvel will likely take ages to be remade, and honestly only needs its two protagonists and maybe Leon to be well represented, so I can see a Magvel pack dropping for any of the games, if it isn't a focus for FEW3 together with the newest original game after Switch. So, for FEW3, NewFE+Jugdral's games+FE8 is a possibility. I honestly don't care for Leo unless we are talking shipping. But cutting the most popular male character in japan is just dumb. Not focusing on Fates while it and Awakening are the hottest parts of the franchise is also dumb. Making the fanbase from said hottest part of the series wait just to please the fanbase from the comercial failures, games over a decade old and japan-only games (while also netting us less games, and overall less content) is also amazingly dumb, especially when you think of this as a business, which is how the devs are looking at it.

It doesn't matter why it sold well: it just matters that it DID sell. (If anything, i wouldn't say that fates was lucky, but that the others were unlucky. RD in particular... that was just painful). Again: Fates's main cast not only comes from the most recent game they had as a frame of reference, these characters are all popular, unique among people of their class lines, convenient clones that fill niches we'd normally be lacking, and they are "face" characters for the game (which often goes hand-in-hand with importance, but not always). Even in a full series game, i guarantee you they would have at least 9 of the 10 royals. It's simply the most logical thing to do, especially when Fates dwarfs pretty much everything in the series besides Awakening at the moment. The part in bolded is what Heroes is doing. Try taking a look at which games got the most reps, and most importantly, which games they chose to focus for the base game. You suggest just 6 of the royals. But you excluded Leo who is the MOST POPULAR of the guys in japan--they'd never do it. At the point where we have Takumi and Leo, it's a no-brainier to clone the little sisters from them, much like Hinoka is also an easy clone when Caeda's such a big "face" for Marth's games and the only other big peggy is Elincia. (We can argue about Cordelia, but i think she was not necessary. Awakening or not, we should've gotten another kind of clone over her)

They just might not declone some of all of the clones.

Switch probably won't get the same amount of people as Fates. Fates had the weight of two games. Tellius will likely be the same, though it won't be an even split between PoR and RD since there's too much overlap.

I'd once again blame IS/Ninty for this. This "misc" cast wasn't supposed to exist at all, and SD was meant to have 4 reps. I understand why people would be mad, but eh. The intended roster had Awakening with 7 reps, each side of Fates with 7 reps (Corrin pulling double time in both BR and CQ), and SD at 4. Given that Marth only got one game from the 2 his full cast shows up plus the possibility of stealth reps when SoV becomes a focus game or gets DLC packs (Camus)... Given the difference in popularity and recency, I think it's fairly acceptable if not predictable to have SD with less people. Besides, the SD cast was much bigger than the awakening cast in TMS#FE and Marth has 3 smashes under his belt, so that side of the franchise already spend all their crossover slots there lol

I must have read it as 25-30 movesets somewhere, sorry. It doesn't deny sequels, but will make them significantly less impactful with only one big game to push it. Owain and friends and enemies were honestly not very different than basic enemies, but with voice lines and unique models. Push it a month? Would never happen. Super Mario Odyssey exists. And nothing covers the september game of the month slot for Japan. It wouldn't get released any other month. It is hard when you are honestly offered what is in the end a better deal by giving each game/continent more careful consideration throughout a few games. Fates and Awakening would've never gotten as many characters as they did in the final game if not for focus games. Other games will also get similar treatment, with the low bar of 4 reps from SD being what is the maximum any series would offer at base with your idea.

If it wasn't a reply to me then i didn't read it. If the point is full-series and you aren't going for all the lords except maybe the japan-only that weren't in Smash, your roster would never happen, ever. You were talking like 25 and even 30. Unrealistic, and almost delusional. That's why I brought up Zelda and I'll bring up Zelda as many times as necessary until you get it that this game is lower priority and would never get an equal amount of love, let alone more which is what you're asking for. Comparing Zelda and FE is like comparing Ragnel to an Iron Sword, at best a Steel. Also, they are business. They want to do more games, not blow everything with just one. And personally, I'd rather have more games, giving each or most parts of FE as much spotlight as they can because they aren't handling too much at once. SD got a bit shafted here but it has a sequel to market itself around later.

No, you really just don't get it: all you're saying doesn't suddenly make the process any more cheaper or time consuming. It's not about creativity. It's about modeling, texturing, programing, animating, writing, vocing, and a bunch of other aspects of game design and game development. What we got is absolutely normal for any starting warriors, clones aside. And while I can't prove anything, I assume it would take 4 clones to equal the workload/cost of a original character. The game you want is not feasible. Not even Hyrule Warriors managed to cover much more than 3 games, and that's with the Triforce holders being whole-series reps. It too had focus games: OoT, SS and TP, all with 3 reps each. The game you want would just miss the mark. Especially since there is literally no way the focus would be on people like Soren and Titania over a lord-type like Micaiah. They'd focus on the lords. The face characters that people would see in the boxart and the first chapters. If your roster doesn't have all the lords we got internationally at the very least (including Roy, for a total of 15 characters), your roster is already a failure. Jugdral and Kris are shaky japan-only choices, with Jugdral being old as heck on top of it and being better off saved for DLC/sequel when a remake is near, and Kris's class and apparent unpopularity making him someone that is better off ignored. With some smart cloning, you can boil down the 15 remaining lords into at least 11 movesets (Marth/Chrom share a moveset with Alm/Lucina, either pair configuration work. Eirika, Celica and Eliwood are all primarily fencers, so they can have the same moveset). Then you're left with a bunch of missing classes. Fates would likely end up with 90% or more of its royals in the game again. They are popular and relevant, on top of 5 of them being the most unique people in their class lines (Camilla, Xander, Leo, Takumi, and Ryoma who could end up as a Lyn clone with Lightning over Wind since we are pressed for slots). Sakura gives you bows and staves in one single cloned moveset and is easily the most valuable clone you can take. Elise isn't as much, but this kind of roster lacks staves and she gives us the Troubadour line, which is a different class tree than Leo and something almost no clones can pull off. Hinoka would get in mostly because we need a Pegasus, and we need Caeda, and she's a convenient clone. We already know that not putting Azura in at that point is just asking for pain, even with Ephraim to cover ground lances. The only big choice left is Tiki, and we already went past the limits of the game we got a while ago. There's 2 full extra movesets as it is, or 1 if you consider how the game would be like without IS/Ninty meddling at the last minute. (No Anna/Lyn/Celica means the NPCs would get finished and Oboro's moveset would be in the base game). Corrin already covers the manakete niche to a degree, so she's not that much of a necessity despite easily being to this roster what Azura was for the game we got. A roster like this is one of the few viable answers for a semi-full series game, and we are stuck with a lot of popular, unimportant people like Tharja and Oboro missing, and as expected we still have certain class lines missing or forced into hybrids (Hector = Fighter+Knight, for example).

Zelda has everything to do with it. You want a game bigger than Hyrule Warriors for a franchise that is smaller and harder to cover. It just ain't happening. Your roster has 25 people. Which ones of them are clones? I can only see about 5 pairs. Surely you don't think that if this game struggled with 15 unique moveset that they would "easily" make 25? It just feels like you severely underestimate how costly and demanding game development is. Nintendo and IS are big, but this is a Koei Tecmo game. Warriors games with big rosters/number of movesets are all because of sequels.

Dude. Zelda is much bigger than FE, and this is what Hyrule Warriors had: *14 finished characters with 3 almost-finished NPCs (I'm considering the Great Fairy moveset as its own thing, because... it is, effectively) *4 of these characters had extra weapons, totaling into 6 (I'm not sure if the Horse and Spinner movesets were in the base game). So 23 movesets, with 9 of them not having 100% new resources either by incompleteness or by re-using a model. ... Now, let's go back to FE. I'll try to make a roster close to what we got in number of movesets+clones. 30 characters or whatever is just insane for a starting musou of a semi-niche/barely-mainstream series. Before all, there are 14 sword lords: Marth, Alm, Celica, Sigurd, Seliph, Leif, Roy, Eliwood, Lyn, Eirika, Ike, Chrom, Lucina, Corrin. Now, consider that between the comparatively huge amount of voiced dialogue the game has and the fact that every single character comes with 2 models because of promotion, characters are more expensive to make. And we already know FE is smaller than Zelda. The math is obvious.

The you should know that what you want is completely unrealistic. So stop whining about that.

Sorry, it is stupid. It's even worse if you wanted it evenly distributed. Like I said, you'd blow the roster out with the lords alone, or end with a fail roster that misses out obvious main character or has to do things like Magvel being just Ephrain because Eirika isn't unique, or having Lyn and Hector without Eliwood. Again, we only had 16 movesets to work with. there isn't enough to do a quality full-series crossover. Try to think a little on how such a roster would need to be built: it simply doesn't work. It's easy to say KT should've done this or that, but think about game design even a little and you see this is just unreasonable.

I'm sorry for the double post, but I replied to someone else above you and you should read that. I'm not sure that editing a quote would net the notification too.

Sorry, but like always I'm forced to point out this mentality is stupid. You know why they had a focus on 3 games? Money. Time. Both are finite resources and the project you want is not something they could pull off with the same resources they had available here. Never mind how a full-series as a starting warrior is just... too limiting. You know how people say SD got shafted and that 3 reps wasn't enough? That's the most any given game in the series would get with such a crossover. There's a lot of things the roster needs to cover. Main characters, Important characters, Recognizable/Iconic characters (think Lyn, Frederick or the little sisters, who have big earlygame presence despite low importance and mid/lategame relevance), Popular characters, in particular popular nobodies (Owain, Tharja, Niles...), villain characters, unique characters... and literally the same concepts but with the word "class" instead. And a full series roster would blow itself up just with lords alone. There's only FOUR lords in the series that don't mainly use Swords: Robin, Hector, Micaiah and Ephraim... and they are all the secondary lords of their games (if not tertiary in Hector's case). The other FOURTEEN lords all use swords. We only had about SIXTEEN movesets to work a roster with. 15 we got in the base game, and I have no doubt that if IS/Ninty hadn't forced Anna/Lyn/Celica, Oboro and her unique moveset would have been in the base game, which is why I think we missed out on the better game because of IS/Ninty's agenda. If they had waited for the DLC, at least... we wouldn't have had four half-baked NPCs in the base game, only a single lance moveset, and both Celica and Lyn could've been better written and had unique movesets down the line, be it DLC or in a sequel.

Yup. Cost Vs Revenue is the name of the game, not sales.

They make a lot of buck from the lower costs of Musou. They made profits from games that sold a lot less, and for all the screwing up that IS/Nintendo did in the roster with Lyn/Celica/Anna, they likely helped fund some stuff, and Nintendo helped with propaganda through directs and such.

They wouldn't blow another moveset into a swordsman with no magic abilities (Ryoma/Corrin). We already have Marth and Chrom and the OC twins (which, admittedly, could've used Lances or Axes).

I mentioned plot for the little sisters because people completely discredit what they did for Fates. It's not the "one and only reason". Sakura just blows Lucina out of the water in terms of value as a character slot between being able to run on MAG and use staves, whereas Lucina has nothing worthwhile in her kit to make you REALLY want her over Chrom assuming they are at equal circumstances. Gameplay is important, and since Lucina adds nothing to it, she could've been a alt costume. Elise has similar things going for her but reps a completely different class tree than Leo to compensate for not having a STR gimmick (which Leo actually does better, even if that better is crap regardless)

Not really, Lucina's whole point is that she's a Chrom clone in-universe. It's why the cutscene of them fighting in the Ferox Arena even exists. And it's why she shouldn't have been given a slot. But they could've give her more MAG, i suppose. I feel like this Lucina HAS to be SUlly's or the Villager's, because the other moms all do magic or give her that.

More like what, a unique moveset for Lucina? Please. She deserves no more than either Chrom's or Marth's. And of all the things to waste a new moveset on, it shouldn't have been a sword user. Especially one that does nothing unique (Chrom is basic sowrdplay, MArth is fencing, Corrin has dragon stuff, Ryoma has electricity, Navarre/Lyn has dual blades, Xander has a pony).

It's 100% understandable. Lucina, from a gameplay standpoint, adds literally nothing to the game since unlike Takumi/Sakura or other clone pairs, she is just as STR oriented as Chrom and doesn't have the MAG to run the switch stats skill (Topsy Turvy i believe). She could've been an unlockable alt costume like M!Corrin and F!Robin, but no. Not only we got a useless clone, she reps a class we already had and is yet another sword.

Sounds like you didn't read past the bolded words which is absurdly foolish. The reddit post isn't Koei's. It's a translation of what they said in the official book guide (whatever that is?). Like, it wasn't even one line, would it have really killed you?

Because Oboro was meant to be in the base game. Except that she, like the other 3 NPCs, needed to be swept under the rug to make room for Lyn,/Celica/Anna when IS/Ninty "suggested" them.