guedesbrawl

40 def? don't you mean 40 HP? Her averages reclassed ASAP put her at 36 HP, and that goes to over 40 with Seraph Robe. But DEF stops at 24 That's going Wyvern Lord, btw. Anyways, Reclassing totally should be included. I hate the mechanic with a passion, and IS certainly didn't balance extensive reclassing. But cases like Mozu and Azama clearly say they didn't add the mechanic and forgot about it. Corrinsexuals also have 3 base classes to compensate for their lack of A+/S options, so there's another argument.

Kids are grinding and should be banned in any tier list.

No matter how broken Ryoma might be, being present for only half of the game should make him unable to reach S+ status. Reserve that kind of thing for Prologue->Endgame gods like Seth and Robin, plz. Anyways, is this factoring "efficiency"? as in... does this consider Turn Count as a resource, despite the game never demanding speed or punishing the player for killing one enemy at a time if they feel like it, given the lack of a ranking system like in FE7?

It's not about "baiting mages", but "baiting a mix of physical and magical enemies". Corrin (children aside) is the only one that can really do that. The Yatos also have the occasional WTD against Lances and Shuriken which is not nice. It doesn't hold up well in the last few chapters you have before DS+ tho. Dragonstone+ Bonus is also very significant: +7 DEF over the Grim Yato and +5 RES. An high HP corrin can take a lot of punishment with that thing. I've been able to bait the entire central-right half of C23's wall and survive thanks to this weapon (unfortunately, it didn't kill anything so I was trapped) You rarely in the game ever need to rush to kill something. Of course, when you do, you are generally right that basically everything Corrin has does the job better (unless you have a low RES enemy you can't double before promotion and don't have the Levin Sword/Tomes, I suppose.)

I bet you are saying that because you have a good strategy to defeat Takumi. Possibly a 100% safe strategy to get to him and kill him. The more resources and brain power you need to craft a strategy to defeat a boss = the harder that boss is.

The easiest is Daniella by far, because of the dragon veins. That's not even considering how badly the beast killer you get from benny would've screwed her, or that she has the usual shuriken weakness of every tome user. Even Ch1 Xander puts more of a fight. Hardest? Eh... probably CQ10Takumi who is strong for the point in the game her appears, most likely will have an elixir (you can manipulate Hinata to use it instead), and has unrestricted 1-2 range. Nevermind he is not easy to reach and messses you up with the dragon vein, easily bringing about one of the strongest impacts of a boss unit in the series.

Yeah, outside of pair-up bots almost everyone should be 20/15 by chapter 24. I did have a few hit that mid C25, tho.

Bait spy shuriken user with a shurikenbreaker from the souther wall of their room. sing + shelther can let you kill/wound the ninja and retreat without aggro'ing the enemies in the hallway proper. You can also take out the enemy standing in the center (a MoA iirc) and retreat far enough that the enemies in the side rooms won't come after you (the MoA in the end of the hallway will, and i think a ninja will auto-move for attack stance).

Still grinding. Never mind absurd stuff like Midori's 1/2-turn clear with a Dragon herb as the prize.

Children Paralogues are no better than random encounters. Grinding. They put you ahead of the level curve. I'd say ban them.

Can confirm, even though I gimped myself considerably with quite a few restrictions (no prepromotes, no reclassing, no child paralogues, no tonics/mess hall, etc). If you slug it out it means you will spend a lot of time near the starting area, and might even need to hole up in the southern bridge to minimize EP action. This map is just too open for the old bait-tank-and-clean-up to be a great strategy. It is doable, but not something I'd recommend, efficiency or otherwise.

Mozu has higher attack compared to setsuna by level 15/00 or so, which eventually lets her take on targets with way more HP and finish them off, without needing somethign like forged silvers. Mozu also doesn't have setsuna's low accuracy problems before Certain Blow for as long, and she also tends to have more defense, which lets her take on targets that can strike back in the lategame (everything oneshots setsuna by that point more or less. She can see EP action with Dual Yumi but there's always a risk)

Efficiency tends to not care about PP. In a normal playthrough, yeah. Setsuna is good, though the fact that Takumi joins soon without needing investment AND that you get a lot more from investing in Mozu who is about as hard to raise as Setsuna makes her mid-low tier at best. orochi has about the same impact as Setsuna in a normal playthrough but with less effort. you just need to use attack stance with her, and later on remember that there is a brave scroll (snake spirit i believe) in BR

Because Hayato has SKL problems. Rinkah tends to have higher SKL but her hit rates aren't amazing; i shudder to think of what an Oni hayato's would look like. Not too sure if it's the best single-reclass path for him, but reclassing Hayato to Oni after getting him 20 levels of diviner and promoting means his 20/20 average SKL is 15. 22 as a Basara isn't super accurate either, but he also has a lot more luck on that class which factors in the hit formula a bit (difference would be 10 points in that 20/20 scenario) You can probably get a better turn count with as Oni, but it's a risk. And there's only one BA in the game, so Basara opens room for a better user of the weapon (Corrin. maybe an Oni Saizo)

Rinkah tends to not have the magic and speed to ORKO anything but wyverns with Bolt Axe. But she can do it with an effective onmyoji pair-up bot like Hayato. The big problem si that high res targest like bowsmen are still duds for her in combat and the others use magic themselves so she kinda gets rekt. Hana has zero enemy phase potential. Hayato is very hard to train (especially without a rinkah) , but he not only has potential but has a wider range of enemies he can delete as an onmyoji, nevermind EP potential as a basara. Hana's goign to struggle really hard without some MoA dual weapon abuse to maintain impact in EP

I'm not too sure rinkah should get that high, given that she joins quite early but only really starts pulling her weight offensively after her favorite weapons start showing up (Hammer in c12, then Bolt/killer axe and pike-ruin a chapter later. Horse spirit probably after Leo). She is a rather good unit imo, but i found that she needs a little help on that HP to keep up with the pressure later on if you are not willing on pair-up boosting her DEF or sticking with horse spirit unnecessarily, which should detract from her a bit. And she's hit pretty hard by the waves of mixed physical/magic attacks later in BR due to her crap resistance. I don't play for efficiency, but i have a bit of a trouble seeing Oboro more valuable than either of the ninja bros (especially Kaze once you built Corrin support and are free to Kaze+Rinkah it out), especially given her very limited 1-2 range before an A+/S reclass). I'd say Tacomeat has a bit of a problem with EP combat, but his contributions to any playthrought early on with that incredible weapon MT are hard to contest, so i dunno.

Ideally, yeah, there are better classes than the cavalier lie for almost everyone in the game. But CQ can be cheesed so easily i'd say 'why bother", but that's me.

First of all, don't be ashamed of doing lab runs. If you use an offensive strategy in this map you can end up triggering the reinforcements by accident, before they actually can be safely dealt with. An alternate save file with Casual mode for battle saves is perfect for that sort of thing. As for an strategy... well, my team was massively underpowered at the time, and i had a low unit count (14 effective fighters. Mozu was there just to be a pair-up for Azura, since she could tank one shuriken but died to attack stance). But here was what i did: 0- Rely on Guard Stance. This map is cramped as hell. 1- Clear the trap to the left and bunch up near the pillar that gets lowered by dragon vein. Saizo will move up, and he can handle the ninjas up there. You should trap him as soon as he is in range of the upper ninjas, who get blocked off by a DV. This way, you can raise the walls and have Saizo waste a couple turns up there. 2- Meanwhile, clear out the enemies in the central room in front of your team. The area with the Shrine Maiden is blocked off, but you can stop near the walls to bait some of the enemies there. This is important. 3- Enemies will start trickling in from above. This is just a matter of balancing defense and offense to advance carefully over the upper corridor. It's interesting to use Niles and Kaze as baits above the caltrops, since they take no damage. It slows down a couple enemies, and you can deactivate the trap in the following turn. This was really hard for me, but i'm sure that with beasts like Camilla and Xander you can handle it. 4- Clean up the rest of the units, but be careful about making the reinforcements pop up. 5- Saizo will try to escape to the right side of the map by this point. use DV to manipulate him to go north. The objective is to use the enemies near the upper chest as bait and trap him there for eternity. 6- Have your entire party stationed near the reinforcements, send one unit out to trigger then. The upper left's reinforcements can be triggered without activating the nearby lunge chain, so remember that! 7- Kill the upper left reinforcements then the southern ones as they trickle in on you. 8- Activate and handle the lunge chains with whoever can survive those. Xander probably can. The non-lunge group on the south is easy to bait, but remember that the caltrops allow you to do some baiting over the walls without having people going to attack you directly. If you want, Entrap or Freeze can destroy the chains for you. 9- Same as step 6, but send the party to meet the northern reinforcements instead. 10- Activate Kotaro's lunge chain. 11- Kill Kotaro. Remember that your Dark Mage has the Heart Seeker skill, and have them retreat with Sing (and then shelter azura out) if they can't handle that enemy phase for some reason--with Nosferatu, that's unlikely. Debuffing Kotaro with Kaze is generally good. if you have joke weapons with super high accuracy like the rubber bow, they were made for this moment. Unmentioned, but i promoted my entire team between steps 6 and 7.

Kaze with any good DEF pair-up should be able to survive that, i think, but i'll say that's still a good use of Silence. The freeze maids in Hans's room... well. You can use a shelter+song setup to kill the right maid with a bow-user and retreat beyond the General's range in a run without entrap, but again, legit use of silence. I forgot about that enfeeble, haha. last time i went through conquest was the "Swap" hack with B r characters that ddin't give chest keys in lunatic, so... i forgot! (don't kill me).

^The entrap maid? I'd understand the hexing rod maid (which can be cheesed with a level 1 Mozu if you have the room for it or a similarly weak unit), but you can just clear the Hero room and let the maid entrap Kaze or Leo. And you really don't need to waste money on Enfeeble for 12!Ryoma when you can debuff him with the pot behind him. (Especially if you played well to have Kaze or Felicia with full DG, otherwise you might need the Shelter+Sing trick).

I't's still a valid tactic. Especially when the game gives no incentive for trying something other than turtling, given the maps it doesn't work on... welp. Chapter 10 gives you Camilla who can practically handle half of the map by herself. Chapter 21 can by flyskipped by Camilla or just a flier Corrin, not to mention you can go through it normally by Xander Smash tactics. Endgame is cheesable as most of us know it. Chapter 24 is tankable, and Chapter 12 (and i just remembered, 18) is designed in a way that pressing an offensive is easy so it doesn't matter. I'm sure you can clear half of Chapter 17 in one turn. But the question is: why would i go through the effort of setting up my team to do that? Objectively. You can argue fun or whatever, but that's purely subjective. I know that if I had the resources to tank that map out (without losing Saizo) I would've. The circumstances of my run forced me to take a super offensive strategy with a 14-man team of unpromoted units bar Corrin and Felicia (and a 15th member in Level 1 mozu who was just there to deny attack stance hits on Azura if needed, since she can survive one shuriken at least), but still. I can see a stronger team with early promotions and built with the right skill after some reclasses wiping out that map. But I see that the game gives me Xander one map before, and that I have enough units to plug holes and trap saizo in the first room and think: if I hadn't been doing a heavily restricted run, I could've done that. There is no incentive, and no reward to go through that trouble when turtling is so easy and effortless. The less effort and resources you need to execute a strategy when time is a meaningless resource, the better that strategy is. This is not me trying to make whatever strategies you come up with invalid, before you get even more offended and bothered. (relax).

19 is much easier when played defensively. Tanking it out with a beast killer general/Wyvern is just too good for those silly foxes. Effie, benny, Beruka and Camilla all should be able to pair up with corrin and tak on the map with just a few vulnearies. but on a non-cheesy playthrough, I think the only thing that is important is that you can use a flier to split up the second-to-last batch of kitsunes, which makes dealing them them in a non-cheesy manner much more manageable. You send your army south, but have one flier trap some of the foxes between the river and the mountains. Their MOv will be very compromised (especially if you go further and bait some of the riverside foxes to loop around the map). Chapter 24 can also be tanked hard. Especially if you do like me and havea properly set up replicate!Kaze with Hunter's knife (on top of at least two beast killers and shining bow!niles). Fliers and mages suicide into him, and it was so bad that i got my kaze from 14 to 18,5 without actively trying. The very last reinforcement promotes offensive play if you can't defeat Hinoka and her oni fast enough to trigger her dragon vein over just seizing, but i might be saying BS here because i messed up (one of Effie/Niles/Keaton/Silas was set up to kill a couple of the advancing fliers in EP, but i ended up leaving them around enough auras that the enemies just got close and didn't attack.)

I really enjoyed how you open your post with "Terrible and Biased argument" and end it with " Note that none of these require turtling, which is a desperation tactic that requires serious Stockholm syndrome to actually enjoy or refer to as a playstyle." Was that supposed to be hypocritical, or are you just that oblivious? i mean, even if we ignore the obvious bias in the statements i quoted, you just argued against +7 STR/+4SPD/+2DEF i like when people disconsider turtling as a legit strategy. You might think its boring or whatever. i think Nosferatanking with Robin in awakening is cancer-inducing, but it is undeniably the best strategy. Turtling might not be the best strategy in the same way, but it's incredibly safe and easy to do when tackling all chapters besides the ones that give you a turn count limit or have infinite reinforcements trailing down your back. That's just 4 missions out of 32 (considering paralogue 1 and invasions). Chapter 12 should've taught you that. What turtling does: it minimizes how many encounters you have on EP to give you absolute control on how to wipe out the enemy in PP. it minimizes risk, it minimizes difficulty, it minimizes resource consumption. (exception being Chapter 25 where investing on a good Corrin saves you a LOT of trouble) Chapter 17 is an awesome example. You can literally plug a hole with Xander in turn 2 and tank out the entirety of the first massive wave of ninjas out without any risk, then carefully position your units to ambush reinforcements before someone triggers them. The chapter becomes a complete joke, and you don't even have to try anything. That's not to say other strategies are not effective, but they require more resources (hello 200g for seals and dealing with E rank hell AFTER grinding up supports to S/A+), more effort, and depend more on the enemy than you. With fates's finicky RNG, the lack of control of an EP playstyle can bring about ruin that could be salvaged in a PP playstyle you can definitely beat the game faster if you don't turtle but that means... nothing. Again: only 4 out of 32 maps actively press you for time in the entire run, with other chapters having pockets of danger that almost always can be avoided (Yukimura's reinforcements, for example) or tanked out anyways (Everything in C24, especially with Mechanist Kaze's ridiculousness). For the rest of the maps, you aren't rewarded by the "GOTTA GO FAST" mentality that consumed the fanbase because of FE7's ranks. There's no such a thing in fates. You seem to imply having promoted units by the time keaton joins. Seems like someone early promoted JUST to deal with chapters like 13. 14. and 16... who can be easily dealt with a team of unpromoted and unreclassed units if you know how to tank. Lategame maps all can be easily tanked out too, especially if you have Xander. But feel free to think what you want. I will admit: i only play with very heavy restrictions which includes no reclassing and no prepromotes (bar chapter 21 which i'm sure i made impossible with everything i banned, forcing me to use Dragon Herbs and Camilla). But after quite a bit of hard work, i have practically completed Conquest Lunatic with 14 effective units and i can say that trying the good old tank-and-kill when you have access just to broken prepromotes like Earlygame!Reclassed!Jakob1, Camilla, xander and Haitaka makes the game have zero difficulty. The only real difficulty i've had came from things that wouldn't be difficult if i had access to those units. My example for chapter 17 required a super offensive strategy to get through the first waves with 14 units and only Corrin and Felicia as promoted.

First of all, josh, calm down. It's just a game. Second, Silas is definitely not outdamaging Effie and especially not Keaton without some serious investment or counting on Luna procs. You can see it for yourself down below: http://zekareisoujin.github.io/FEFatesStatCalc/ Basing ourselves on averages, Effie has Silas beat in STR by a small margin (which will be a bit bigger once in a blue moon, since Elbow Room is pretty hard to deactivate but will happen more than Effie's personal), and also has him beat in SPD if you chose to make both of them be Great Knights. General Effie is even stronger, and the ability to one shot before the enemy can counterattack in PP is more valuable than doubling with SPD investment (which, mind you, between pair-ups and speedwings... are better used on Xander and Leo). Silas will beat Effie now and them when Luna procs, but that is not a reliable thing, and effie can get that skill too. Defensively speaking they are about the same as Great Knights (Effie has a one point lead in DEF because she starts with DEF+2, Silas has a similar lead in HP), but Wary Fighter access gives Effie a niche Silas usually wouldn't have, especially against ninjas later on (particularly those with Inevitable End). Against Keaton, Silas does match him in STR with Elbow Room and can use stronger weapons without possibly sacrificing bulk... but Keaton still outdamages him. Beaststone+ has 10MT and gives an extra 5 STR. Unless you really work up that Axe rank as GK (which also comes with a debuff from silver/steel and huge ore investment for Iron), he won't match that MT and thus damage unless he procs Luna. That's not even considering that Keaton with BS+ has about 10 SPD over Silas. This higher SPD means Keaton needs considerably less investment to double high SPD targets (or just deny their double attacks) and can naturally always double stuff like Onis, Faceless (important for now-cheesed C21) and MoAs. Defensively, Keaton and Silas have the exact same defense average (down to the decimal, surprisingly), and while BS+ has a -5DEF built in, Keaton does compensate with a lot more HP. And, of course, he can enter tank mode with BeastRune, and he will still be barely faster than Silas with that Sometimes you might wanna take that lower DEF with BS+ to avoid a double attack, though... not an option Silas has, though. But late in the game Silas makes it up somewhat with Armored Blow, so there is that. Keaton is also not "outclassed" by Beast Killer. Hunter's Knife, yes. But not Beast Killer. The impact both have should be the same in every map but Kitsune Hell (where Keaton's low skill wrecks him), and having one more unit capable of ORKO'ing when waves of fliers start coming after you is always great. Especially when KEaton's weapons come for a huge gold cost of... nothing. Silas does have more utility potential due to higher move early on and being a shelter bot for earlygame and later to keep Xander doing something else than setting up Azura. Is Silas better than Keaton/Effie or is he the worse unit? Honestly... they are all about even. Silas has availability and 2-range over Keaton despite worse pair-up bonuses and combat performance (he is still good), and unlike Effie, he doesn't struggle a lot to make an impact in Chapter 7 and 8 (which are by far Effie's worst maps in the campaign. Chapter 7 is also not great for Silas but he manages, and is good on 8). Who is better depends on your playstyle, really. The old tank-and-kill is better for Effie and Keaton, but Silas excels with a team built for mobility and initiating on groups of enemies.

Silas doesn't have Siegfried.