Makaze

see the bottom of that post where i have shinori's quotes WITH the posts he was responding to in them

fine this is where I first explained it in more detail: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-4/&do=findComment&comment=5199405

good point @Iris @SB. If a Role Bomb existed in the game, would a Motivate action fail against it (same result as roleblock)?

Eh, I fundamentally disagree about what I would do, but it's a moot argument because I'm not willing to back up with meta. I'm not referring to past games, and I kind of dislike self-meta on principle, but I am a highly rational player as both alignments. I don't see the harm in arguing what comes naturally, especially when it's not only about what I would do, but how Walrein would react to it. Do you really think that Walrein would just accept that hard defense of him without questioning it? What about just accepting my flip now that I'm hard casing him? Who does that? ive literally written this same post multiple times seriously, please do an iso on me you can use this script to do so: raw link

Uh The evidence speaks for itself. Shinori shaded Walrein. He did it again. Then very soon after, he denied EVER mentioning Walrein, to eclipse. Then he goes "Why are you focusing on my read of Walrein and not Eury? Huh? Huh?" Throughout all of this he never asks Walrein any questions, and Walrein doesn't even react to this contradiction. I don't know about you, but if someone had shaded me and then denied it, I'd have at least corrected them and asked "What is your read of me, then?" Instead, Walrein just out of nowhere puts Shinori in their town pile. Walrein has ALSO questioned or commented on all of their other reasons, with much less conspicuous cases. It's just too weird of an interaction. I understand if you disagree, but my stance is that every action makes sense from that person's point of view. If this makes sense from Shinori when Walrein is town, there is some logic to how he acted about it. I have my interpretation. I'd like to hear yours other than "I don't see yours".

I'm not sure where you got that idea. I cleared Walrein based on tone. I read like the first five posts of his ISO and towncleared him without looking further. I was also hard into my eclipse tunnel and immediately found something that made him never w/w with eclipse. I never gave it a second thought after that. I'm saying that if I was trying to pocket Walrein with my town read of him I would have shown actual interest in why he was town and made him believe my read was genuine. I tend to believe that people who townread me for no reason have TMI and townread people who suspect me for these same reasons. I expect the same kind of skepticism from Walrein. I am surprised to find that he didn't have it then and doesn't have it now, even after I've flipped on him. It's uncanny. I can see a world where I genuinely believe I am right about him and a world where I am trying to make a show of clearing him to the rest of the town, but not one where I'm pocketing him. This isn't how I would do it and this isn't how Walrein would respond if I did.

I mean yes but I think that walrein would have said "I got roleblocked n1" if that was their assumption i can't prove this, but I think they actually suspected it was fable's role that caused it and that required them to know where the rb went

I think you are wrong. Fable's ability cannot be motivated, so they got a failed result. Fable argued this. I also question the logic behind roleblocking Walrein over known town PRs. Did anyone actually claim roleblocked for n1?

... like I said, Fable explained why his action failed. Fable cannot be targeted by manipulative abilities (he is a role bomb). I also noticed that the way Walrein worded it, he was not claiming to be roleblocked. He was claiming that his action failed. I think he knew it was Fable's role that caused it and that's why he a) never claimed the roleblock until now and b) didn't offer this self-clearing roleblock reasoning on his own.

To the one I'm describing, I mean. I legit don't understand why he would deny mentioning Walrein and get on eclipse's case, then say "Why didn't you ask me about (townflipped Eury) instead?"

What alternative mindset do you imagine for Shinori? I can see the laziness argument. It's not nearly as bad as the way Shinori handled them. Once again, what do you think happened if Mack was motivated for n3?

@Beru

Re: Watching You can safely target me, I am not going to act tonight. I realized that Fable was a bad choice because scum would never kill him with that claim.

Re: #2: My argument was that my reasons for clearing Walrein are unique and stand out hardcore. I don't think I would do that as scum unless I actually thought it would pocket Walrein. Realistically I don't think any town that I town read without reasons would just accept it when I usually play so rationally. That's the argument. Not about how opportunistic the switch would be (you would be right if I had cleared Walrein for cause before).

Fails if the person does something, yeah. They could watch Fable though? So you're a better option either way. But I still don't really buy the motivation claim. See: Why didn't Mack target Kaoz n3?

I don't see how number 2 makes sense with how I have cleared everyone else. But this isn't really worth arguing.

##Votals @Iris @SB.

@Snike @SatsumaFSoysoy please tag me when you respond to this What do you make of Beru? Sorry if I missed this.

Meant as town here; my bad

I mean I think it is, and those people are Snike and Walrein. See my argument re: Walrein town reading me for the effortless obliviously hard defense. I don't think Walrein does that as Mafia, they're not nearly as skeptical as they should be.

I also don't believe both of them would out for out of game reasons at the same time for this long. It's strategic.

I am fine with both Snike and Walrein and I think they are probably buddies, with or without Snike's opportunistic outing today.

This is true, and I am willing to stick up to that if need be, but I think my progression on Sully is genuine and only the person I am hard casing as the ITP actually thinks that I have scum motivation. I promise you this: If I am alive after all of Omega/Snilke/Walrein are dead and we have not won the game, I will bow out, stop leading the game, and allow whoever wants to to case me without defending. Because whoever the Mafia is at that point is so deep that I have failed completely, and they will want to case me for the same reasons as Omega, and I won't be able to defend them. (I will post enough to not get MK'd.)

I am going to point that being patently wrong and pushing actual EoD wagons on exactly three player so far is not that bad, and I've come around on almost all of them. Just because I am the most vocal and I'm not afraid to push my lynches doesn't mean I have any more chance to be right than the next town (although I always think I am at the time, the statistics don't support it.) You on the other hand are willing to lynch anyone in your PoE, prefer me, and most of your PoE has changed with... Town consensus, which has been on me. I don't see a world where Omega lynches Walrein if he thinks he is town and I am Mafia. There's self-preservation and there's trying to win the game, and it seems obvious that all Omega is doing is trying to survive. No one is going to push him like I have, save Baldrick, who will be dying if I get lynched today (town doublevoter who agrees with me is bad for him AND mafia). This simply doesn't hold up.

it is if your strategy is "play so contrary to a good itp OR town that I get townread" nice pop in