Lord Raven

dondon151 is owning this thread pretty grandly give up marty, you have no chance

irc.darkmyst.org /j #serenes_forest

I'm not seeing what's so funny about Brom other than the fact that it's because it was my driver's ed teacher who called me Mildred off reading the name "Muhed" (pronounced Mah-Hahd, just don't ask) for the first time XD And yeah it is.

It's better actually. Thanks for the initiative, I honestly appreciate it. Ragnell gives him a good 2 chapter lead though. They're long chapters too.This means... +2 chapters of same attack (same Strength, comparing L20/13 vs 20/18 also assuming forged Silver Sword vs Ragnell) +2 chapters of more Defense (20+5 Defense vs 15(+3 Vague Katti) Defense) +2 chapters of 1-2 range vs 1 range Ike > Stefan in the final two chapters. Don't discount those two chapters because they're just "two" chapters; the enemy quantity in Endgame comes to at least 45 in Hard Mode, and there are many, many laguz hungry for units with evade deficit like Stefan (L17 Stefan has all of 66 evade, 73 with A Soren). The tigers/cats have around 127 hit rate leaving him with 54% evasion rate provided neutral biorhythm. On a hit, he'll take like 17 damage. The cats do like 13 damage. (Tigers and Cats have 9/8 Attack respectively, 23/20 Str respectively, so that's 32/28 attack respectively, Stefan averages 15 on 20/16). Ike, with A Oscar (+30 Evade) B Soren (+15 Avoid) at L20/11 (66+45 Evade=111 evade), so they have 16% hit against Ike. Ike has 24 defense at this time, therefore taking 8/4 damage per cat or tiger enemy. Case applies lowest level of laguz per unit, and .5's rounding down in Ike's case. Stefan has a one point attack lead at this point assuming a forged Silver Sword vs Ragnell. That's cool though, Ike has a 1-2 range that he'll make use of against enemy laguz or enemies in the final chapter, so he can raise his chances of avoiding attacks even further and even further his own defense. And 2 chapters, if you're going that route, makes up probably 1/10 of his join time if not a teensy bit more. Numbers much?His lack of avoid up there? Partially due to luck. He could easily gain like 10 avoid and put that below the 50 mark for true hit to take priority on a lower% hit, but instead his lack of luck places him further below Ike. Going further down the list of enemies, Myrmidons have 13-14 Skl in Chapter 16. Stefan has not gained a level by now (Level 8 promoted by chapter 15? Not getting much), therefore they have 1-2% crit on him. They have 40 some hit on him (13*2=26, +70 from Iron Blade = 96, +75 from Steel Sword = 101) and do 7/6 (respectively) damage, too. 38 HP. L17 Ike has roughly the same Defense, much more avoid. 16*2(Spd)+12(Lck)+30(Ike-Oscar A)+15(Soren-Ike B)=80 Avoid. So they have 16-21 hit on him, 7/6 damage and Ike has 7 less HP. Of course, Stefan has the better chance to one round with an Iron Sword. But Ike is still easily more than capable of catching up, and more capable than Stefan on the defensive side in C17. More on C16. There's a Sniper with 19 critical on Stefan (16-18/2=8-9 + 15 Sniper bonus - 5 Stefan Luck) whereas the same Sniper has 11 Crit on Ike. His Steel Bow hit rate is 102. 21% chance of hitting Ike (25% at max). 47% chance of hitting Stefan (51% at max). Does equal damage to both. They only exist to get stronger. Stefan doesn't really have a large chance of gaining luck until L11 (has 5.8 Luck), which happens potentially around C22ish because of his very low EXP gain rate due to level. I'm really too lazy to go further; enemy skill stats will rise, and enemies without killer weapons will have a crit chance on him. especially later on. Also, his avoid rate is relatively stagnant. At L15 it's 69 (7 Luck) where Snipers have at least 18-19% crit rate on him and around 51-55% hit on him. The Snipers have 110-114 hit with Steel Bow, so do the math on Ike who has - 43 HP (vs Stefan 43) - 63+45 Evade (vs Stefan 71), 12-16% avoid on him - 19 vs 14 Def 20/9 vs 20/15 btw. And really? Ike's beating Stefan in durability, and going from beating him -> getting worse than him in offense, gradually. Ike's massive durability win (partially attributed to decent luck vs shit luck) pretty much wins. I guess this sums up the following points; And of course, you wouldn't want to completely waste Vague Katti early on especially since the critical is overkill at that point. Iron Sword Stefan is > Steel Sword Ike in offense, but Ike > Stefan in Defense. As stated above. Also, B Soren > B Titania, it helps the team more (Titania can support other units now) and helps Soren a bit more. You haven't explained how it's being "nice." Firstly, this debate starts at Chatper 15. We should compare the two from this point on. But I can have fun refuting your points here, showing that Ike can be useful beforehand or just making it a neutral point saying that he doesn't suck. Why is it being nice, again? He has many axe users to beat up on in C1-3 and gets a free level from the Prologue. And then there's the Regal Sword to kill bitch armors. It isn't. You're not using it on enemies that aren't weak to it, are you? It's only 2 points stronger than an Iron Sword. I can easily say that Ike doesn't need it to not fail completely. Where's your proof? C4 - has one. Two uses out of 40. C6 - has four. Eight uses out of 38. C7 - has eight after reinforcements. Realistically, six uses out of 30. From there it doesn't matter. It has 12 uses left. 2 more might than an Iron Sword is a point that counters that. On top of the fact that you haven't even shown numbers to back up your claim, so I have little inclination to believe you seeing as, since this is a proper debate post, you should at least have taken some time to bring up numbers. How is it borderline doubling? Be more specific! "Borderline doubling" is a vague claim, and reducing 2 AS doesn't really "rape." On top of that there's a Steel Sword existing and ready to be used. Say what? And you make this sound impossible? L11 Ike has 12.55 Speed, so if he kills the other Knights first he definitely has a decent chance of being able to double that one. Vulneraries exist, and preying on the Javelin Knight first is a better idea. I don't need to. Hmm.10-11 damage to boyd who has just as much HP. Rhys, Mia, Soren are screwed. If you need numbers behind this, you really are crazy. Titania, Oscar are doing better. I guess he has the middle ground here...! 21 HP and 4 defense are also potential. He has a decent chance of one rounding with Iron Sword, and a decent chance of being L11 by the time he fights them (for the record, there are Soldiers and other shit before he fights those guys, but the bottom path is preferable anyway due to more damage output + less damage take due to your numbers earlier). So really, you can't rule out the worst possible posibility; it's essentially 50/50 to one round.Steel Sword fucks up the Steel Blade Myrmidon no matter one. Two rounding? Titania's the only one one rounding anyway, considering Boyd has 9 AS and Oscar like 11 or 12 with not enough to OHKO/in Oscar's case, one round. There's three if you block the left chokepoint.At any rate, the chance of all three hitting is like 12.5%, and the chance of two hitting is 25%. 38% chance of 2 or 3 hitting though, but only two at a time unless you suck at blocking chokeholds. The Archer has 6 Spd and Steel Sword Ike has 10 AS, for one thing. 11 dmg x2 >= 21-22. ^ Yeah and? Get Titania to block that fort, Ike is probably the most dumbass thing to even put there due to low Res. Same with Boyd. Not "so badly" but not completely getting raped either. Read above, and they'll probably take a bit of time to hit his chokepoints anyway. Doesn't fail hard. :) Again, why? Cool I assumed Soren support anyway. 12 Stefan at Chapter 18? Are you kidding me? That's assuming he gets 133-134 EXP per chapter, which is not viable considering, if the average level is 15 (give or take a couple) he'll get like 6-10 EXP per kill. Which means anywhere from 10-16 kills per chapter out of possibly 20-30 enemies. Oscar has Canto.Soren is just fine. Support is 3 spaces anyway, and the maps aren't particularly large. Cool story bro +4 Avoid/Dodge massive difference. Apply it to above calcs and you're set. It doesn't make much of a difference when applied to either side.My view on "FAVORITISM" is that each should be allowed mutual access to it. Ike gets +4% Evade/Dodge and Stefan does too. That's cool, it's pretty much a non-issue on either anyway, so Ike is still winning and it doesn't close his gaps. Final point: Stefan costs a slot, Ike does not. Ike is forced into every chapter. I'll be happy to give numbers if you don't for certain things on my next post. Right now I'm dead tired and really want to get this over with.

Zihark starts a bit weak, but I think his Earth support covers some durability issues just fine. He's got Muarim (+15 Avoid, +1 Def, B, 6 Chapters) and Brom (+1 Def/Atk, +15 Avoid A, 9 Chapters) (Totals +30 Avoid +2 Def +1 Atk) for support whereas Stefan has... nothing except Soren. Zihark's defense pretty much excels from Chapter 20 onwards as well. And there's also Adept which has a greater activation rate than Astra when Zihark hits like 14 Skill if he already hasn't. Volke > Stefan is purely thief utility. The only way to obtain Physic staffs is through Bishops, and he's the only one who can steal them aside from Sothe. Which makes him pretty useful, just like Sothe. Unlike Sothe though he's guaranteed to steal some more and can survive a hit on base level. Stefan is above Makalov because Stefan's basically owning Makalov until Makalov mounts and gets a couple levels. Muarim could go above Zihark. I'm waiting for someone to sway me to something though.

I am VERY sorry, you'll probably have to wait until monday. I was doing some volunteer work over the past two days... three cramps and like 20 hours of work and I'm really blown.

Back on topic because I don't find you funny when you try to be. Comments on Makalov's current position in Upper Mid? Upper Mid Volke Zihark Muarim Stefan Makalov Rhys Soren Mordecai Geoffrey Nephenee - below Stefan, because Stefan's bases are generally good and his stats remain decent (aside from evade and durability) until endgame. Which is where he gets passed up by Makalov. It's on like post #12 of page 1 right now for easier reference.

I don't know shit about enemy levels right now soBastian has 20 Atk with Stiletto and like 28 Atk with Thoron. Sage 3 29 5 13 11 13 3 9 15 He does 11 damage with Stiletto. And like 13 with Bolganone, if he even has the A necessary (he starts with C). Bolganone and Elthunder are probably more realistic. 11 22-23 2 9-10 6-7 9 2 5 10-11 15 x2 damage with Stiletto and 17-18 x2 with Bolganone. And you're honestly going to say with a straight face that he does more with Wind than stiletto? He has like 21 attack with Wind.

FE6 didn't have the death. Just sickness, so the child would have to fend for themselves instead of coming crying to daddy.

Well Gatrie and Tauroneo are pretty good to use..

Steel Axe gives twice the WEXP of Iron too.

I misread the quote he quoted. Entirely. In fact, it wasn't even misreading the quote; I probably didn't see the quote and assumed the topic was talking about Jill/Oscar still. It's a pretty epic fail. I've put her in her own top tier for now (Super Top, Top tier but super).

I MISREAD THAT COMPLETELY I'M SO SORRY XD I was thinking Jill vs Oscar XD

I know you're Reikken and all but I bet you can say something better than that. to upper mid goes makalov

I argued Oscar > Jill earlier in the thread so I don't fully see it either. It wasn't refuted.

Then... balance the mages some more? The fact that only one of them are in the upper tiers vs many, many others in the upper tiers + not another one until lower mid proves that there's more melee dominance. It was one example followed by countless others. I said they were balanced between Melee and Magic. Where did I contradict you? FE6 was pretty imbalanced.You have Lugh, who's decent enough (eh durability problems, and decent enough killing portential I suppose. Enemies are pretty jacked, but he can at least double but has slow supports), Ray who's okay, Lilina/Cecilia who have their uses occasionally, Sophia and Niime who outright blew, Saul/Ellen who lacked offense until promotion, clarine who also lacks offense until promotion and still has pretty subpar offense, and Hugh who's ridiculously subpar. Against a myriad of good physical units. It's one of the more balanced, but I'm pretty sure physical units are still doing much better overall than magic units here. ... proof please.Against enemies of course he does more damage with Wind, they're mainly physical units. Which was kinda his point. :/

Then Melee units are entirely dominant.Let's look at FE9, by the way. Oh wait, the highest tier mage is Soren or Rhys! Hallelujah they're upper mid. Then you've got mid tier ilyana, tormod, callil bottom tier bastian it's only got five magic users, which is sorta pathetic too proving even further it's melee dominant FE10, Callil is highest tiered (like upper mid or something). Then Micaiah/Pelleas (upper mid or mid iunno), Soren (mid), Tormod (low), Ilyana (low or lower mid), Rhys (lower mid or mid), Laura (lower mid or mid), Bastian (low), Sanaki (low) etc. Not in order, but yeah. FE5 was balanced between mages and physical units imo, FE4 too I suppose because of Mage Knights (even though there was only one..) and Holsety. FE6 was lopsided, FE7 was lopsided, FE8 was balanced enough. FE3 was kinda balanced I suppose. Are you agreeing? Be more specific.

Yeah I vaguely implied he probably didn't.

If a Magic user is the best in the game and there's like 10 units before you get a tier with another magic user, then you get like another 10 units before another magic user (hypothetically) then melee still dominates the game. It just happens that a mage makes it up to top of top. I doubt it. Mages probably have about as much less Res than melee units have Def than tomes have might in comparison to swords.

Reikken wins the thread.

When you attack the first time, your maximum critical rate is like 20%. However, on a double attack, your critical rate is multiplied by the critical coefficient. Othin has Critical Coefficient of five. If not, let's assume. So first attack, Othin with 20 Skill has 20% critical. Second hit, he has 100% critical rate. Have fun.

Go through Part I once and prove yourself wrong. Hint: Izuka.

I wouldn't put it past certain people to say stuff because they "just go along with it."

First off, I don't concede. Second off, we need enemy stats, pronto. Third off, I'm tired of people saying "just because x is very available does not make him high tier" as a comparison. It's stupid; clearly the point is (if they're trying to prove x is good) that they're good for most the time they're available and their availability is decent at the same time, as opposed to just availability. Fourth, YokaiKnight, anal sex is apparently banned in Maryland and I'm straight. I'm sorry.

You... believed him/her?