Legault!

"no more than a half dozen turns" sounds like +6 across the board to me, which is what I was responding to. I sort of like this approach because we don't necessarily need to have the absolute lowest turn totals handy; we can work with a general understanding of how quickly maps could be completed and add in +X turns for each map. This is both flexible and well-defined. Absolutely. The main resource to be gained from Children Paralogues isn't the children units, but the gobs and gobs of experience. This makes units like Sully, Lissa, etc. high priorities for S-Ranks, which means they'll see more use early on.

If I'm understanding you correctly, this is the "turn limit" approach with a fixed formula. I like it. +6 does seem a little high; how about +4?

Well-defined standards are essential in a list like this. Please try and remain respectful. Couple of things here: 1. Most of the children units will be garbage. As only a few units are going to be proactively used in Lunatic due to the necessity of building up SuperUnits, those children with weak parents will acquire low stats at a paltry base level 10. 2. An inescapable consequence of adding in children will be re-evaluating first generation mothers based on how feasible their children maps are early on. S-Ranking Sully becomes a priority over Nowi as Kjelle's map is far easier than Nah's.

This is another good option, although including children means having to re-evaluate certain first generation characters. For example: If Kjelle's map is deemed reliably completed on Lunatic, then Sully immediately gets a big bump, as getting her a partner early means more experience. Just to be clear: 1. IGNORE THE CURRENT RANKINGS 2. TALK ABOUT BRISK PACE Until we resolve number two, all other discussions are meaningless. Thanks.

Those are placeholder rankings graciously borrowed from SDS's Hard Mode list. I imagine most of them will change significantly. Regarding Donnel: though he'll be recruited, training him is nightmarish on Lunatic and almost certainly not worth it. Even Ricken should be higher, as fliers are dangerous and Ricken is a pre-packaged two-range, effective might machine. Which maps are assumed completed? Some are far too difficult to reliably complete until Endgame, if that. How do we handle the extra experience gained from such maps? Do we consider which parent combinations create the best children? There are so many concerns and variables here that allowing children into the list seems like needless complication. EDIT: Added in the Recruitment policy to the OP. All units are assumed to be recruited so long as they're first-gen.

"Brisk" roughly means completing the game in a reasonable amount of time. The idea behind this restriction is to avoid ranking characters according to absolute LTC (lowest turns conceivably possible), which is where undefined standards tend to end up. How brisk is brisk? That's the question of the evening. One temptation is to set a defined turn count for all maps, but this becomes very arbitrary: why (say) 200 total turns and not 205? It's my hope that purifying the list from additional problems (like children units that are not Lucina) will make this question easier to address, and, as I said, I'm open to suggestions. EDIT: For the sake of spurring discussion, here are some of my preliminary thoughts about "brisk" criteria and what does and doesn't work. I'll be updating this as/if suggestions come in. Could Work Having fixed turn totals -> Mentioned above, this means outlining a set number of turns within which a map can be reasonably completed. Yes, this is highly arbitrary; once these turn counts are established, however, the list becomes pretty objective. And turn totals can always be questioned in the future. Doesn't Work Having a "range" of turn totals -> If the concern is total turn counts becoming arbitrary, one might think to create a range of turns instead of a fixed limit. Instead of saying Ch.7 must be completed in six turns, for example, why not 5-7? The issue here is that it devolves into extremes depending on what is valued: if we reward units who can finish chapters more quickly, then the lower limit will always be given greater weight; if we don't reward such units, then the higher limit will always be assumed, as more turns equals more experience and lower risk.

Don't underestimate my editing skills. And I'll actually be updating this list often

The following ground rules are laid down: Difficulty: Lunatic Mode. Normal and Hard are a bit too loleasy for there to be a worthwhile tier list for it, and any Lunatic+ tier list would likely be just a more extreme version of the current tier list. Efficiency: We are moving at a brisk pace [PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS UP FOR DISCUSSION], but this isn't an absolute minimum LTC tier list. Paralogues: No Children Paralogues [this is also up for discussion, but they needlessly complicate things]; all other Paralogues must be done as soon as they are unlocked. Barracks: Not allowed. Skirmishes / DLC / Spotpass Battles/Shops: Not allowed. Map Shopping: Allowed, but you may not buy Anna Shop special items. Event Tiles: No items; you can take advantage of experience / support boosts. Renown: No renown. Recruitment: All first-generation characters are recruited. Even Donnel IMPORTANT NOTE: I am not infallible. Please question all of these presuppositions. In addition, please stay on topic and make sure that every post includes an Awakening-related argument; saying "I agree with X" is not good enough. Add in some of your own thoughts. Seth Tier: Avatar You Need Him In Your Life Tier: Frederick PLEASE IGNORE THE FOLLOWING UNTIL "BRISK PACE" IS RESOLVED AS THESE ARE PLACEHOLDERS Tier(s): S Tier: Panne Lucina (Avatar) Chrom Sully A Tier: Stahl Lon'qu Anna Sumia Cordelia Lucina (Sully / Sumia) B Tier: Tharja Miriel Vaike Cherche Nowi Gregor Libra Lucina (Anyone Else) C Tier: Tiki Gaius Kellam Lissa Maribelle Say'ri Olivia Henry D Tier: Virion Donnel Ricken Basilio Flavia I assume the top two spots will remain uncontroversial. First order of business is figuring out what we mean by "brisk pace." I welcome any and all suggestions.

HNM doesn't require Marcus blitzkrieg, at least. Don't forget about the northeast quadrant of Crazed Beast either -- an underleveled Florina or Fiora with a Pure Water / barrier boost can solo those monks. Sounds like I'll have to try it myself. I've heard that arena abuse makes FE6R pretty easy, but considering how tough the arena is in Hard, I imagine this is overblown. Instead of any kind of competent rebuttal, we get a :V face. I am stunned.

Now hold the phone Mr. Inui. Zero-turn HHM requirements are totally a glitch / oversight, but they're a happy accident: they completely redefine how the game is played, demand greater attention to pre-planning, and provide a relevant difference between ENM/EHM and HNM/HHM. They're awesome. And aren't FE6's ranks too lenient to really matter? I'm not all that familiar with them. Fun fact: Inui and Paperblade are my alternate accounts. I do admire your "agree with me or leave" approach. It's a winning attitude.

Great logic. Let's see if I can follow this great logic all the way out: Four turns is better than seven. Three turns is better than four. Two turns is better than three. One turn is better than two. We're now at an absolute LTC criteria. Great logic.

The obvious implication of my post is that you're using words [without considering what they mean i.e. nothing]. who There are alternatives between wasting hundreds of turns turtling and speeding through the game at a near-absolute LTC pace. Like, say, taking seven turns on a map instead of four. Great. So does seven turns count as quickly, or four. You're comparing your lack of standards to me having OCD. Are you high right now. I'm more than willing to have an open conversation about what concrete standard we should adopt. Until others agree to have this discussion, nothing else can get done and these rankings will be utterly subjective. You decided to wrongly criticize rankings, not me.

Frederick is your unanimous MVP up until (around) Chapter 8, at which point he and Avatar share that title. He gives killer Pair Up bonuses from the start (but how much credit do we give to such bonuses?) and requires zero investment. He is also helpful throughout the campaign. You'll need to provide more specific arguments before any kind of drop.

Donnel is better when you have six turns to play with. vs. Donnel is worse when you have four turns to play with. What is the "battle" here. This is confusion, not battle. What is "fast play" and what is a "real difference." You're just using words. Also please don't be wrong about rankings and then go ask me to make a separate topic explaining why you are wrong about rankings. I can do that just fine here.

Whoops, never mind then. Still feel free to use Renown items and forging. Otherwise, Freddy should be able to solo most of the map -- have Chrom / Avatar deal with some of the ranged enemies, and Freddy + Chrom deals with Marth.

My first stalker.

Use Renown items. Forge. Reset until Marth doesn't have Counter.

Any game sucks to tier when there are no clear standards for how you're tiering. "How good is Nino in FE7?" "I dunno, how much importance are you giving to the experience rank? She's an excellent late-game experience boost." "Consider this a 'Sort of Care About Experience' list. btw Nino sucks" "I have no idea what that means and you can't really say Nino sucks with such a nebulous criteria." "Go do something productive with your time "

Look at Inui's post: if brisk pace is seven turns in a map instead of four, then Donnel's usefulness is much improved. Without a concrete standard, it's subjective. That's a lot of big words and a lot of missing the point. There are no "conflicts in style" in a Ranked run: the player must meet certain requirements, and some characters contribute more to the end goal than others. FE7's brilliant ranking system is a part of the reason it's an actual strategy game: you're forced to cycle through underleveled units, you can't abuse the arena, you need to preserve stat boosters and expensive weapons (especially on Normal ranked), etc. This is directly relevant to Awakening because it highlights how broken the game is. 1-2 turns per map? 1-2 turns per campaign? If it's the former, then I'm all aboard the Inui train and will advocate moving Donnel way up.

As Paperblade points out, you're "getting by fine" with vague standards because you're interpreting those standards to suit your own views. This is more a case of delusion than successful swimming. Hardly. Competing (not contradictory) requirements make the game genuinely challenging, and various difficulties place clear emphasis on specific requirements (funds in Normal, experience in Hard, with Tactics underlying both). And because there are concrete standards, units that help one rank but hurt another can be adequately analyzed: does a promoted Dart save as many turns as a non-Dart team with an extra 25K in cash to spend?

I think you might have forgotten some spoiler tags.

This is very true. Awakening, in addition to being a very bad game, is also a game that is very difficult to argue about (even "subjective") given its wide range of options and lack of any kind of ranking system. I still don't understand why "grey area" is considered acceptable in a list like this. Concrete standards are a must. Regarding a possible Lunatic list, it would end up making certain characters extremely good and most others extremely bad. Rather boring.

Armsthrift is really poor, but Sol is amazing and Donnel's Mercenary growths are superb. This is a bad post.

...You really should read all of the posts before commenting. I know there's a lot of bullshit to wade through, but still.

Thanks, I don't have the game on me so I couldn't verify.