Legault!

You don't see me making these suggestions in the tier list topic, do you? This is less about tiering and more about finding a way to make Awakening not a terrible game. I'm also not super interested in absolute LTC and I imagine this is true of most people. I'd just like a game mode where I have flexibility in my strategy while still feeling fairly challenged. If you like LTC, then any SRPG, no matter how broken, has plenty of strategy to offer.

Wow, this topic blew up. Couple of things: First, moving Panne up to Avatar tier is dumb and I'm pro-Panne. Panne is amazing. Veteran!Avatar might be the best unit in Fire Emblem. This isn't up for discussion. Second, Inui is absolutely right about how silly underrated Sorcerer is on this board for some inexplicable reason. Tharja doesn't have meaningful hit problems -- Hex, Anathema, Pair Up bonuses, skill potions. If we're willing to blow 2.5K as a given for Panne to reclass, I don't know why we cant throw out a buck fifty for Tharja to get a skill potion and become literally invincible. Her being in B-tier is disgraceful. I'd argue her close to Panne if not above her, since this isn't an LTC list and reliable completion of maps at a brisk pace >> slightly faster completion with lower reliability. Third, why in the hell is everyone an elitist asshole. 1. If we're accepting that magic use is irrelevant and DF will stick to lances, then FK is a completely superior class considering better promotion bonuses and staves. 2. Sorcerer.

Nowi moving up seems like a no-brainer. If she's not only usable on Lunatic but a potentially excellent character, her poor speed can certainly be dealt with against lolHard enemies, and it's not as though speed potions aren't cheap. But OP needs to relinquish his tiering duties before we can make any progress.

I'm not actually going to ignore anyone. Just to be clear about why what I mean by "exploit" is important: we can all agree by now that if the player knows what he or she is doing, Lunatic is a joke. A handful of characters, classes, and skills snap whatever difficulty the game might have in half. What's worse is that there are many such exploits: beating Lunatic without grinding isn't an accomplishment when Nosferatu exists; beating Lunatic without grinding or Nosferatu isn't an accomplishment when Veteran!Avatar exists; etc. Limiting broken options is necessary to preserve some semblance of strategy -- the remaining issue is figuring out what constitutes an exploit / broken option / [insert preferred term here]. I hesitate to limit too much, as the gap between amazing and horrible units is large. I've never heard of someone seriously using a Sully or a Ricken in a Lunatic challenge run, for example. Even if it turns out that Panne is just too good and either she or Second Seals ought to be banned, there's going to be a point where so much is banned that reliably completing the game will involve a very defined strategy that the player can't deviate too much from. That's not a lot of fun.

Thanks for the detailed descriptions. Been a while since I played Paralogue 17 on Lunatic, but it's, what, twelve enemies you need to kill in two player phases? Seems doable, although I'd worry about gold -- the game gives you plenty, but forged weapons can become very expensive very quickly. Did you ever run low on gold? I'd also be curious to see how the lategame plays out with no reclass. No Wyvern!Panne sounds like many of these chapters (such as 16 and 23) would be nigh-impossible to complete. She unofficially served the role of your token Demigod unit (which all Lunatic challenge runs seem to need), and without her, I'm not sure if those maps would have any kind of reliable completion. I'll probably have some follow-up questions later on, but for now, I just want to observe that all players seem to agree at how lousy the game's design is down the stretch. Several dozen promoted enemies with forged weapons in an empty field sacrifices strategy in favor of tanking with a token Demigod unit (usually MU, Tharja, or Panne; I can see a Nowi or Chrom fitting this role too) and crossing fingers.

1. Your common DF candidates (Sumia and Cordelia) are going to have ass magic. This thankfully isn't as much of a problem with staff use. 2. SpotPass characters are wholly irrelevant. 3. FeMU has several far superior reclass options than DF.

I try to explain something to you in earnest and you respond in dime-a-dozen passive aggression. Lovely. Does this site have an Ignore User function?

Which is inefficient for a number of reasons, including "eh" pair up bonuses and the inability to meaningfully dual attack. Is this how it works? I thought it was simply a matter of highest-support-points; if you're right, then Chrom!Inigo's plausibility goes out the window.

Major, major props. Could you share your strategies for some of the mid- and late-game maps? There's a sharp difficulty spike at 12, what with the lack of terrain and hordes of strong enemies (many promoted) with forged effective weapons. I'd be curious to hear how you go through this map, Ch.16 (with the Falcon Knight reinforcements), Ch.17 (Valkyrie bumrush, reinforcement hell if you wait too long), Ch.20, and Ch.23 (So. Many. Enemies).

Dark Flier is awful. Not only are Falcon Knight bonuses better, but immediate staff utility is superior to novelty magic access that will rarely, if ever, come into play. Rally Movement is nice, but Rally Speed is arguably better, and I'm not sure which maps can be one-turned with Galeforce that can't be one-turned with flier + dance. Dark Flier utility seems strictly theoretical, and this applies to Galeforce as much as it does the class itself.

Galeforce is useful if you're beating up on grunts or are trying to rush a boss map. Galeforce is a decent skill for SpotPass and final DLC, but it seems badly overrated to me. Especially considering how much work you have to put in to get it (Dark Flier is not a good class, and you need to stick with it for fifteen levels).

I'd say Chrom!Inigo is far and away the easiest to get. Making sure Chrom never interacts with his other wife pairings is a lot easier than having MU benefit from dance abuse for half of the game.

For the main campaign, children aren't all that practical. I mean hell, we're not even ranking them on this tier list. For the postgame, Donnel provides a couple novelty skills in addition to lower stat caps. The only child I can see him really benefitting is Kjelle, since he grants her a lot of great classes and skills she likely won't have otherwise.

Just to be clear, I'm using the word "exploit" to refer to something that trivializes the game's difficulty with little to no effort. Veteran is in this way perhaps even worse than Nosferatu, as Veteran!Avatar can solo Lunatic on his own in a wide range of classes. If you're using other units for shits and giggles that's fine, but other units are completely unnecessary. If someone can manage to pull through Lunatic without Veteran, purchased Nosferatu tomes, Aether, grinding / SpotPass, or dance abuse (which I would consider to be the game's "exploits"; Aether!Chrom can end Lunatic on his own as well, although it's a trifle more difficult than the other exploits), I'll be very impressed. With any of those exploits "turned on," so to speak, Lunatic goes from outrageously hard to trivially easy. [i know that Paperblade has championed Sol as another broken skill, but I haven't used it enough in my runs to comment.]

To restock on food.

Ah. This might be part of the reason you're on cruise control: a "no-exploit" run to me means no Veteran; Veteran on MU alone breaks the game, much less his children. I played without it. (Look at how vague I am with my definitions Interceptor, no wonder I am incomprehensible.)

Compared to Ricken, Miriel comes earlier, has comparable bases despite being recruited three chapters before Ch.5, has better approximate magic / speed growths, and has access to dark mage. "Completely outclasses" sounds pretty fair.

Admittedly, you did straighten me out with those comments filled with evidence and argument and not in any way comprised of ad hominems. Another nice thing about people insulting one another publicly is that reputations form and you know what you're getting with certain users. I've found it comes in handy. EDIT: Weren't you the one who claimed Lunatic+ didn't require force resets until Chapter 7? This is an honest question because teasing each other, while fun, isn't very productive. If you have strategies to get through 2 and 3 where half the enemies are packing Counter, I'd love to hear them.

Might be time to bite the bullet and get some Renown / DLC items. Just one half-decent lance + Frederick can deal with Masked Marth handily. EDIT: Watched the video, guess you beat it just fine. Where did you get all those fancy items from?

Going to twelve additional maps before Paralogue 17 seems like a delay. I dunno man I feel like I've been extraordinarily clear in this topic. If you want to rephrase all of my posts feel free, but maybe we should focus on the topic.

All children paralogues other than Cynthia's are available after Chapter 16. If we do all of the children maps, that's 12 additional chapters' worth of experience; Tiki will be much worse in comparison. If we do five maps, Tiki will be somewhat worse in comparison. If we do none, Tiki will be better in comparison. Articulating something usually means understanding it. But like I said in another topic, your genius transcends the rest of us, so I very much appreciate you helping this plebeian out.

I'm articulating it just fine; you seem to have a problem understanding it. But I am a very patient man, so allow me to try again. 1. Children Paralogue maps provide training for units, which means that depending on how many are done before Tiki is recruited, her relative worth fluctuates. 2. If we agree on limiting Paralogues to a handful of children, the children with shorter maps will always be recruited over the ones with longer maps. This is roughly an LTC list. Hopefully there are no more ambiguities.

"Considering children maps have a direct bearing on non-children unit performance, this is bad advice." -- Legault, three posts ago Bold is right: children Paralogues affect unit performance because they are training grounds. More maps = more experience = units who are above her (all recruited earlier) are at higher levels with better stats by the time Tiki is recruited, not to mention they've made positive contributions during those Paralogues. Donnel, Anna, and Tiki are recruited in Paralogues that are not marriage-dependent to open up. I'd say that's a relevant difference. Either way, there needs to be a concrete consensus about how to handle children: either none, or a set number.

I like the part where I didn't say Nosferatu was required to beat Lunatic. (And I was obviously excepting you from those comments, Interceptor. Your genius transcends the rest of us.)

Getting children period (other than Lucina). Adds turns to your total, makes certain units' quality ambiguous.