(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins! - Post Game is up!

[Shinori]

23 minutes ago, Rapier said:

QED by this rewritting of the Bible, Shinori is still either joking around or focused entirely on defending himself versus going for targets or pressing other people for content/reads. It feels like his game is just drifting through D1, joking and defending himself when flak comes his way. That was ok-ish 12 hours ago, but now I'm honestly seeing this as scum conveniently staying under the radar despite being one of the top posters.

Man if that's what you got from that post I just can't have any conversations with you this game.

Do you have zero thoughts on my actual reaction towards SB in that post? Do you have any thoughts on the little back and forth between me and SB?  Why are you just hand-waving my post and reasonings brought up IN the post in question?  I actually bring up what I find as valid reasonings towards suspicions in prims as well as I question SB's reads in both Marth and Makaze.

 

And all you have to say is "GAWD SHINORI JUST DEFENDING HIMSELF AND MEMEING"  Read it again, do an actual thought process, that post isn't memeing and is fully serious and is probably the only post that I have ACTUALLY defending myself against someone pushing me.  Because defending myself means I am aiming to fight against a case or reasonings brought up against me, which hasn't actually happened until SB posted this post in question.

This like blatant misrep of my post and the content I have, WHICH IS interactions between me and VARIOUS players, should be something that you could use to solve me but all you are saying is "Shinori being defensive and joking around"  Ask me some questions do something about it.  You aren't though you aren't doing anything WRT the situation which means you are actively trying to NOT solve me.

How are my posts scummy? What about them has scum-intent?  Where am I trying to pull the blindfold over the town's eyes?  Where in my posts am I trying to mislead the town do you think here?  Am I still null to you? If so then why haven't you tried to fix that yourself?  Just stating things like you have been doesn't push me to do something persay it's just being lazy and saying I'm scum trying to 'stay under the radar' while being a top poster is just WACK.  If I was actually trying to cost I wouldn't be actively trying to pull people's attention towards me or responding to things I don't NEED to respond to, or posting thoughts I don't really NEED to post.  I could spam actual posts with zero relevant information or aim to help the town at all but that's NOT what I'm doing.

Way to flip my read on you in a single post.

Also man if like 4-5 paragraphs is considered a wall or "The rewriting of the bible" then this is gonna be a silly game.

[Shinori]

54 minutes ago, j00 said:

No I get that, what I don't get are listing a bunch of player pairings and saying you're confident about them EARLY DAY 1 with no empirical associate reads whatsoever. You yourself during the recent Chumps game is about the best example of how D1 interactions can be truly whatever in terms of buddying and bussing. Posting these kind of paired reads now based on ????? gives me nothing.

Oh I agree, I'm not saying your wrong.  The pairing thought stuff is generally suspect to players involved and changes drastically depending on who is involved.  Anything related to me is a crapshoot because I'm gonna do stuff that's weird sometimes.  Other players can do the same and sometimes players just make mistakes or a bad post.  There is sometimes some general truth in the thought process behind it though that scum probably isn't gonna push a buddy 2-3 hours into a day phase for example.

[Iris]

HOST POST:

Hi! Just a few housekeeping points (please read them):

• Votals: It's come to my attention (since I attempted to use the Votals bot) that the Votals bot is not entirely accurate (the first thing that comes to mind is the post counts), the second is I'm confused at what votes are invalid in terms of formatting. I will be posting a manual vote count in the next hour or two. If I'm feeling ambitious, I'll also do a Voting history, but probably no page links. I will likely also attempt to work separately to help test the bot for the future though.
• ISO Script: I did test the ISO script, and this seems to be working correctly. DM me directly if you need help setting it up or using it.
• Deadlines: Deadlines are just going to be convenient for the hosts, so this 8:00 PM EDT thing might not be standard for the rest of . You'll typically know a phase in advance if a deadline shifts.
• General: As I've been reading through the threads, I wanted to take a moment to remind us all about the importance of using correct pronouns when referring to others, especially if they're listed in their profile/side bar. It's a small but meaningful way to show respect for each other's identities. Plus, it's worth noting that people's identities may have changed since we last played NOC 3-5+ years ago, so what you're used to might not be what actually is correct.

As always, if you need anything from me, please DM me directly and don't @ the Hosts in thread when you have questions. Thanks for cooperating!

[Shinori]

I'm going to bed, lynch me while I'm asleep or something that'll be funny.

Rapier has currently been moved around the same area of can go as weapons/SB, maybe a little lower than them on priority though FOR NOW.  Pending content posts from Weapons and rapiers reaction, as well as whatever else happens while I'm asleep.

[j00]

@Shinori Now that I read back a few pages, I don't get why you're voting Weapons? You've posted paragraphs upon paragraphs about how you're not defensive which unfortunately is hard to pull off as anything but defensive, though I don't think defensiveness is alignment indictive (unless that's the only content you have).

You come off as frustrated about the people (SB) voting you which I get, but I feel like it's been a while since I've seen you push your own scum reads.

[Shinori]

Reacting to people saying "I'm null" or they "can't read me" and going "That's interesting, there's a lot of people saying that" isn't defensive, but at this point in time I guess I'm just wrong here so if people wanna label me as defensive against LITERALLY NOTHING. then okay.

I will state I've gotten defensive about being called defensive.  And that is a distinct difference to what people have been saying in the game.

Outside of SB there has literally been zero push against me and zero case against me and basically zero people that have actually said "Shinori is obviously scum and should be lynched" so from a game-related point, WHAT can I be defensive about?

Reminder, I have gotten defensive about being called defensive so make sure you are filtering that part out and tell me what I'm defensive about WRT the thread and game itself.

 

As for the weapons thing, reasons.  I partially stated it in response to SB, but part of it is based off of some earlier interactions that happened closer to the start of the game and I liked the statements BBM made about Weapons.  I combined these two things along with a strong gut vibe and voted them.

[j00]

1 hour ago, Bluedoom said:

Although as I'm posting this I realise that I'm taking offence to "playing safe" which I really don't think I'm doing. Which might be the crux of it.

fwiw I kinda agree with this. I don't think Marth's post today has been stellar or anything, but he's catching flak exactly because his posts haven't been "safe", like his list post is a few town reads and then a vote with vague reasoning. If he wanted to play it safe he could make a few vagues scum reads and sheep a case or something. The current back and forth with Rapier reads like town in-fighting to me tbh.

I'd like to see @Snike elaborate on Marth besides that one list post though.

[Iris]

HOST POST #2:

A few random points:

• Flavor: I feel like I need to address that, uh, everyone has a game relating to them as flavor... for everyone asking me "Wow, how did I get myself!?"... Your flavor was written independently of your actual role and alignment. Not sure if I made this clear in the rules, but well, now it is.
• Flips: Likely, flips will entail full Role PM flips instead of card flips. I will amend the rules for this and let you know this changes otherwise.

Votals coming soon. SF ate my post, but luckily I had a backup...

[j00]

Just now, Shinori said:

I have gotten defensive about being called defensive

This is the Catch-22 in general when you're called defensive, if you defend yourself you sound defensive either way etc. Tbh if you think SB don't have a solid case on you then you're better off letting it go and try to form an opinion on the current posts instead. I'm not entirely comfortable about Weapons but do you not have any more solid reads or stuff you want to push over a "solid gut read" at this point?

[BBM]

2 hours ago, charlie_ said:

 
@BBM Can you clarify what exactly your stance on Makaze is? I can't really tell from the last post if they're just confusing or actually suspicious to you.
 

I do find him kind of suspicious but if I'm being honest I'm giving myself a higher bar for voting Makaze because I don't agree with his style at all and also I want to be sure before getting into a Thunderdome TM. like j00 said I think it will become easier to suss him out with more flipped interactions. I find his marth vote quite bad though because if he just deathtunnelled me on vibes at least I'd respect it a bit more. voting player B cuz they fit with player A being scum when player A hasn't even flipped yet sucks

I tried reading Marth again and still not seeing it. I then read the votes of all the people who were voting him, and I actually find Rapier's kind of bad. his original vote there was fine, but after that I feel like he's been parking it there and hasn't actually posted much about him since then. also reading some of his other stuff more closely, he put out a list post that on everyone in the thread to that point and basically called everyone scum or leaning scum outside of two people who he wanted to be more active. I know I said I liked Rapier earlier but I think I was being too easy cuz I'm used to him flaking and felt that as scum he would be more lurky as opposed to tryhard, but i don't feel that town would be finding so much stuff about everyone

I'll wait for snike to post more but the stuff he chose to cover so far doesn't impress me.

[Shinori]

I've stated some of my other scum reads, but I'd rather wait for weapons to post and I'd like to see their reaction.

Does this bother you? We aren't even 24 hours into the day phase why does my vote need to be FULL of strength and conviction to fully push a person right now?

[Shinori]

BBM is mind-melding with me on Rapier. SNAP.

[Shinori]

To re-iterate my above post towards @j00I'm currently using my vote to gain information and gauging a reaction from weapons that I feel will better help me read Weapons more confidently.  Would you rather me NOT do that and only vote someone I'm like 90% confident in?  Because I'm not confident in anyone being scum yet at this moment, so that's kind of hard.

[Elieson]

Good morning. I started reading the game when it was at 5 pages. Took my dog out for a walk, then dozed off when i got back in. It's been a long two weeks filled with moving and back pain. Feeling good today.

14 hours ago, Prims said:

 

If there's anything that strikes me as off about Makaze, it's the potential that hunting for a SK comes from scum who just saw a suspiciously low amount of buddies in their PM so SK is fresh on their mind. SK isn't really the first thing I'm thinking about as town in ED1 because I am not Percy. But different people have different mindsets early on so I'm not placing too much stock in it yet. It might be interesting if Makaze flips scum later, though.

 

IDK why my post lost the Makaze post that was talking about an SK but this one stuck so i'm just rolling with it. Makaze bringing up an SK this early and actually considering a read or more around it seems weird. Sounds like fear-mongering. I'm with Prims here; feels weird. Noting for later.

14 hours ago, Rapier said:

hi!!

Alright, mission clear.

##Vote: @Makaze because honestly, none of the reasons he gave for Sunwoo being town, BBM being scum or me being independent were developed enough (I understand we're on page 4 and not much has happened, but at least give some justification for your feelings rather than going by "I just feel that way"). For example, Prims' aforementioned post was a good way of talking about how you feel about the game, despite the evidence being weak by necessity of early D1.

I feel that Makaze's actions so far are a way to show yourself having reads and being productive, since you're interacting with people, while actually not probing enough on people you find scum/hostile independent role. It's a false show of productiveness that benefits more scum than anyone trying to clear things up and spring discussion on D1, which is what I believe town should be doing.

I also feel that my vote is a way of raising the stakes on earlygame D1 discussion, so I feel correct on bidding double despite my read not being that good.

I'm actually agreeing with Rapier here too. It piggybacks Prims' point about Makaze producing content that feels off/forced.

13 hours ago, Shinori said:

I gotta say this is where that recently viewing stuff comes in.  I saw Elie typing and unless he's already typing up a wall I gotta wonder where he went.

 

COME BACK ELIE.

I WAS NOT ACTUALLY TYPING BTW, I was just in here.

12 hours ago, Makaze said:

TL;DR

I am still pretty sure about Rapier, but I'm feeling stifled by not having enough to read.

Not going to doubt my instincts just yet, but I'm willing to bet on at least these things:

Prims/Weapons are not aligned.
Rapier/Refa are not aligned.
Rapier/Shinori are not aligned.
Rapier/Sunwoo are not aligned.
Refa/Sunwoo are not aligned.
Weapons/Sunwoo are not aligned unless Sunwoo has offered themselves up as a bus teammate.
BBM is mafia.

Not much else I'm sure about but I still feel pretty good about myself all things considered.

See, I'm vibing BBM Mafia; something just feels off but I haven't ISO'd him because I'm waiting until the day is about 1/2 done before I start doing ISOs (also because I am lazy/tired and haven't set up the ISO script yet).

11 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Makaze what

I don't remember why this was multi-quoted but I'm not deleting it because I wanna come back to it and reference it later.

 

##Vote @Makaze

 

I admittedly have not read pages 10/11 because this light-mode interface is murdering my eyes, but out of everything I've read thus far, Makaze feels more forced in what they're putting out. Casual Townread on Prims and Boron and Refa. Scum vibes on BBM. Rapier, I can't figure out, because if my old man memory serves correct, every read I've had on Rapier in my lifetime has been backwards and I'm not interested in trying to make sense of that later. Shinori being sarcastic reeks of town too; There's attitude sarcasm and there's complaining sarcasm; Shinori's exhibiting the latter, and I don't see that as scummy.

[Elieson]

4 minutes ago, Elieson said:

because this light-mode interface is murdering my eyes

I just discovered that adjusting my primary monitor's contrast down by 40% makes it so I can actually read this without causing pain (I literally couldn't see the lines seperating cells in Excel, among many other things), this is crazy and i can't believe i just discovered this now after ~2 years.

I was gonna cook eggs but i'm feeling inspired and i'm gonna stick around more before making food

[BBM]

6 minutes ago, Shinori said:

To re-iterate my above post towards @j00I'm currently using my vote to gain information and gauging a reaction from weapons that I feel will better help me read Weapons more confidently.  Would you rather me NOT do that and only vote someone I'm like 90% confident in?  Because I'm not confident in anyone being scum yet at this moment, so that's kind of hard.

this is silly, we're not at a point in the game where anyone except makaze is 100% sure about anything. vote whoever you think is scummiest, and you can pressure weapons without voting him

[j00]

It's more that you only sound that confident in Weapons anyway? But eh you did mention that you didn't scumread Marth, Rapier or anyone who's been posting lately besides SB.
Do you have any particular opinion on early posters like Boron and Refa then? Considering they've had interactions with Weapons and Refa and Weapons are currently voting Boron.

[j00]

It's more that you only don't sound that confident in Weapons anyway *

[Shinori]

I want refa to post more content.  I don't have much of a read on Refa or Boron well, because at the time of their posting I was actively doing other stuff and skimmed their posts because I was paying attention to other people, and I frequently focus on like bits and pieces at a time and not the whole board.  I'll give them a re-read when I wake up, because now I am ACTUALLY going to sleep.

[Iris]

Iris™ Votals: Day 1.1 (~56 hours left)

Bluedoom (4): Makaze, Percivale, Rapier, Snike
Sunwoo (3): Bluedoom, Refa, WeaponsofMassConstruction
Refa (2):  j00, Sunwoo
Snike (2): BBM, Prims
Makaze (1): Elieson
Shinori (1): charlie
WeaponsofMassConstruction (1): Shinori
Not voting (2): BT., CT075

The player with the most votes at the end of the Day phase will be Eliminated! With 16 alive, it takes 6 votes minimum to Eliminate a player and 10 votes to Hammer the phase early!

 

VOTING HISTORY - Day 1

Page 2:

Rapier votes for Prims.
Snike votes for Rapier
Sunwoo votes for Snike
Shinori votes for Elieson
Prims votes for Snike
Refa votes for Makaze
Prims votes for Shinori

Page 3:

BBM votes for Makaze
Makaze votes for BBM

Page 4:

WeaponsofMassConstruction votes for Prims
Shinori votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction
Rapier votes for Makaze
Sunwoo votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 5:
Shinori votes for Elieson
Bluedoom votes for Refa
Rapier votes for BBM

Page 6:
WeaponsofMassConstruction votes for Sunwoo
Rapier votes for Bluedoom

Page 7:
Refa votes for Sunwoo
Bluedoom votes for Sunwoo
Sunwoo votes for Refa

Page 8:
BBM votes for Prims

Page 9:
Makaze votes for Bluedoom
Shinori votes for Prims

Page 10:
Snike votes for Bluedoom
charlie votes for Shinori
Prims votes for Snike
BBM votes for Snike
Shinori votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 11:
Percivale votes for Bluedoom
j00 votes for Refa

Page 12:
Elieson votes for Makaze

I think this is correct. There were a lot of pages to go through... If it's incorrect, please let me know.

Edited May 26 by Iris

[Sunwoo]

4 hours ago, BBM said:

Can we please stop doing this thing where if someone leaves the thread for a few hours people start getting mad about it? This is specifically directed at Boron for being snippy that people voted her and left, but people were doing that about me earlier too. I know it's frustrating to not get to defend yourself or pursue your scumread more right away,  but we all have more stuff to do now than 5 years ago. So this is a warning that I won't be back after this for a few hours

I'm not trying to be snippy, but 1) I'm not going to apologize for being annoyed when I feel that people are opportunistically jumping on me after I said I'd be absent, and 2) I only brought it up because the timing of their leaving the thread felt scummy to me.

2 hours ago, Bluedoom said:

I've explained this before and I'll explain this again:

My issue with refa is him being reactive when he was in the thread earlier, and asking questions is more like active lurking. Fine.

My issue with Boron...if you actually compare her reads list to mine, you'd see that we're not different(we only differ in our takes on prims and weapons.)

So if a player agrees with you mostly, is actually pursuing a scumread that you have, and is actually trying to take it somewhere, how is the natural progression to actually scumread them? Like that post was "Marth is not impressive, playing it safe" except I actually voted a scum read that she didn't. How is that safe play?

I think your vote on me is silly (shocker, I know). You having the same scum read as me and pursuing them for similar reasons doesn't mean that you couldn't still be scum. Sometimes, a player does something that just flags a bunch of people in the same way that both town and scum pick up on it and case it for the same reasons.

The natural progression to actually scum read you comes because even though we have similar reads and voted Refa for similar reasons, I didn't like how you explained your reads and thought it was weak. (Put simply, "I don't like your phrase".)

Also, you're really hung up on the fact that you voted Refa and I didn't, when I already told you I was starting to tune out at that point in the game and just forgot to do anything with my vote. People make mistakes and forget things. It's one thing if you don't believe that, but you haven't even acknowledged it, which does feel like you're hoping to leave things out just to make me look worse.

I've also explained why I considered your reads post to be safe. Your two people worth voting at the time were BBM for "low presence" (he had stated before the game started that he'd be busy when the game started so that was never going to be a good reason for a vote at the time) and Refa. For, yes, reasons similar to mine, but your Prims and Makaze nullreads felt wishy-washy to me and you refused to commit to a read on Shinori because "I don't know how to read the guy".

Thanks guys for only adding 2-3 pages of content after I went to bed. I don't want to make a wall post, so I will be working on a second post that addresses stuff that are not just responses.

[Sunwoo]

(Sorry, had to reply to this before actual content post)

44 minutes ago, Shinori said:

 I'll give them a re-read when I wake up, because now I am ACTUALLY going to sleep.

You're going to sleep now? Are you still in the same timezone as before???

[Rapier]

1 hour ago, Shinori said:

Man if that's what you got from that post I just can't have any conversations with you this game.

Do you have zero thoughts on my actual reaction towards SB in that post? Do you have any thoughts on the little back and forth between me and SB?  Why are you just hand-waving my post and reasonings brought up IN the post in question?  I actually bring up what I find as valid reasonings towards suspicions in prims as well as I question SB's reads in both Marth and Makaze.

 

And all you have to say is "GAWD SHINORI JUST DEFENDING HIMSELF AND MEMEING"  Read it again, do an actual thought process, that post isn't memeing and is fully serious and is probably the only post that I have ACTUALLY defending myself against someone pushing me.  Because defending myself means I am aiming to fight against a case or reasonings brought up against me, which hasn't actually happened until SB posted this post in question.

This like blatant misrep of my post and the content I have, WHICH IS interactions between me and VARIOUS players, should be something that you could use to solve me but all you are saying is "Shinori being defensive and joking around"  Ask me some questions do something about it.  You aren't though you aren't doing anything WRT the situation which means you are actively trying to NOT solve me.

How are my posts scummy? What about them has scum-intent?  Where am I trying to pull the blindfold over the town's eyes?  Where in my posts am I trying to mislead the town do you think here?  Am I still null to you? If so then why haven't you tried to fix that yourself?  Just stating things like you have been doesn't push me to do something persay it's just being lazy and saying I'm scum trying to 'stay under the radar' while being a top poster is just WACK.  If I was actually trying to cost I wouldn't be actively trying to pull people's attention towards me or responding to things I don't NEED to respond to, or posting thoughts I don't really NEED to post.  I could spam actual posts with zero relevant information or aim to help the town at all but that's NOT what I'm doing.

Way to flip my read on you in a single post.

Also man if like 4-5 paragraphs is considered a wall or "The rewriting of the bible" then this is gonna be a silly game.

Ok, I will admit I didn't pay that much attention to your back and forth with SB.

Again, my critique wasn't on being defensive - everyone is, especially when they think they're being misrepresented or wronged, and some of the reasons people had for voting you were iffy at best (Refa's was the non RVS one that I remember, at least, but I know Prims was also on that).

My critique was on the abundance of content that was either joking or focused around defending/justifying yourself and addressing people who accused you, versus questioning other people and pursuing reads. I'll admit your more recent content has improved and you've been participating on discussions more productively (your talk with SB, your opinions on the state of the game), which improved me read on you (as far as early D1 reads go, at least).

52 minutes ago, Elieson said:

I admittedly have not read pages 10/11 because this light-mode interface is murdering my eyes, but out of everything I've read thus far, Makaze feels more forced in what they're putting out. Casual Townread on Prims and Boron and Refa. Scum vibes on BBM. Rapier, I can't figure out, because if my old man memory serves correct, every read I've had on Rapier in my lifetime has been backwards and I'm not interested in trying to make sense of that later. Shinori being sarcastic reeks of town too; There's attitude sarcasm and there's complaining sarcasm; Shinori's exhibiting the latter, and I don't see that as scummy.

I know you're still reading the thread, but Elieson seems stuck on RVS phase right now and that seems like an easy vote that already turned obsolete imo. I'd like to know what you find scummy on BBM's part, and if you feel Makaze's more recent content is still forced.

59 minutes ago, BBM said:

I do find him kind of suspicious but if I'm being honest I'm giving myself a higher bar for voting Makaze because I don't agree with his style at all and also I want to be sure before getting into a Thunderdome TM. like j00 said I think it will become easier to suss him out with more flipped interactions. I find his marth vote quite bad though because if he just deathtunnelled me on vibes at least I'd respect it a bit more. voting player B cuz they fit with player A being scum when player A hasn't even flipped yet sucks

I tried reading Marth again and still not seeing it. I then read the votes of all the people who were voting him, and I actually find Rapier's kind of bad. his original vote there was fine, but after that I feel like he's been parking it there and hasn't actually posted much about him since then. also reading some of his other stuff more closely, he put out a list post that on everyone in the thread to that point and basically called everyone scum or leaning scum outside of two people who he wanted to be more active. I know I said I liked Rapier earlier but I think I was being too easy cuz I'm used to him flaking and felt that as scum he would be more lurky as opposed to tryhard, but i don't feel that town would be finding so much stuff about everyone

Agree with the reasoning on Makaze.

I'm not sure how my vote is parked on Marth since not much time has passed since my vote and my posts today, and not much has changed to convince me to change my vote so far. Also not sure how having (weak) opinions on 4-5 of the top posters of RVS/early D1 is considered "having opinions about everyone". I've stated I found Marth scum, but Makaze and Shinori slightly sliding into scum territory. That's hardly "finding everyone scum except for two players".

I'll probably not be very active today since I have assignments to do and some friends are calling me to play, but I'll try to follow the discussions throughout the day.

[BBM]

13 hours ago, Rapier said:

The majority of your posts are either jokes or you defending yourself (without probing others, just focusing around justifying yourself and (rightfully) questioning Makaze and Refa's reasoning).

Like, I don't agree with Refa's thinking that picking someone you know for lynching vs someone you don't know is inherently scummy, and I'd also prefer lynching someone who has acted and interacted with others so we could get better reads on the game, but so far your posts feel like just joking around (which is ok, RVS) and defending yourself for three pages straight for something two people have been questioning (which seems excessive and overly protective to me, something that pings me more as scum).

Anyways, off to rest. So far, my reads are (from scum to town)

Bluedoom, Shinori: Leaning more toward scum.

Makaze, Weapons: Leaning slightly toward scum. Weapons seems to be leaning slightly more towards town rn because after interacting with him, I'm a bit doubtful if he had scum intent.

Refa: Honestly hasn't been that memorable to me - RVS phase was ok, I think?, and I don't agree with some of the reasonings used for why people are scum (I disagree with his stance on Shinori, as I said before). Neutral but sliding very slowly to scum territory, I guess.

BBM: Wish you were here

Prims, Sunwoo: Decent contributions on RVS phase. Prims seems more town since his contributions went past RVS.

Only thing I'm certain of is that Fire Emblem Fan is innocent.

@Rapier i think this is the post I really took issue with where more than half the players were scum/leaning scum/sliding towards scum.

idk tho in hindsight I feel like in my endeavour to find scum on the Marth wagon I've basically found everyone on it scummy, which is equally unlikely

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

more later