(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins!

[Makaze]

4 hours ago, Prims said:

I will lurk tactically on purpose even though I am town.

##Vote: Snike

This vote isn't appearing because it doesn't have an actual mention.

[Makaze]

Well damnit. You're right. Vote script broken.

We'll have to do this the wold fashioned way while I figure that out. Sorry guys.

[Bluedoom]

fwiw I don't feel strongly about people having null reads, which is bound to happen at this stage of the game. This is mostly in response to your earlier issues with me having null reads in my first couple of posts, me having issues in your post a couple of pages ago with a few nulls reads, or in the future taking issues with anyone else who has a bunch of null reads. I'm mostly thinking about this now and think it'd just result in people talking at each other about posting more content.

[Bluedoom]

@Makaze can you refresh me, what's the reason for you voting bbm?

[Makaze]

1 hour ago, Bluedoom said:

so first, Unvote ##Vote: @Sunwoo


What about prims is town leaning for you, and do you disagree with my take on his read on Makaze? if so, why?
As of this post I was still voting Refa. Let me outline the problems I have with this:
a)I was voting refa for very similar reasons to  what you're outlining in this post. What about that is safe, or are you going to say that your own reads are safe?
b)Not hard to point out but, whatever shinori has done has been NAI ya. I think the points on Makaze/Shinori/BBM/Snike are fakeable ya.  What specific things has Makaze done that make you think that he wouldn't benefit from them as scum?

c)The last paragraph in your post makes me think that you have enough of a gut feeling to actually vote any of the 3 mentioned. Now from what I remember of you I think you like feeling more concrete about your reads before your vote. But my issue isn't so much that the vote isn't dropped and more that...this feels like fence sitting here?

 

  

4 hours ago, Prims said:

nevermind

##Unvote: @Snike

##Vote: @Shinori for refuge in audacity

having to use pings to vote people sucks, it takes half a second longer and is less aesthetically satisfying

These both failed because the vote and the mention were bolded independently (in Marth's case, just the vote text by itself). They have to have the same parent element. Bolding is optional, avoid it if it causes issues.

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, Bluedoom said:

@Makaze can you refresh me, what's the reason for you voting bbm?

Very strong scum vibes out of the gate and frozen-esque reaction to being pressured. Nothing showing up to counter my feelings.

[Sunwoo]

2 minutes ago, Bluedoom said:

ehhh I dunno. @Sunwoo I think that response makes sense except it seems very contrived to think that me voting refa for reasons you agree with stems from me bussing refa...especially when bussing ed1 to throw the spotlight on your buddy is just suboptimal in general.

Yes people use WIFOM but, the odds are unlikely.

Apparently SF ate a part of my response to you.

I'm not even sure that you and Refa are necessarily scum buddies. Real talk, I was rushing to get my basic thoughts written and posted so my scum reads were more based on how I saw people individually and not taking into account how I think these people would function as a scum team. I mean, about 1/3 of the game hasn't even posted yet, so unless I think all the scum in this game are people who already posted, most of my early scum team guesses will be obsolete.

When we get more interactions and an actual flip, I'll have more information to decide whether I think you/Refa was a bus, town/scum interactions, or if all my reads are shit. But individually, you both looked scummy to me. And again, this is far more nuance than I was willing to explain in my post-leaving post because, again, I was leaving the thread because my eyes hurt from staring at the screen. And like I explained, all you guys needed to do was ask for clarification.

Also, in the hypothetical case that you and Refa are both scum, I wouldn't even say that your vote on Refa has to be a bus. In the scenario where both of you are scum, it could just be scum buddies pressuring one another to create distance without actual intent to have your buddy be the end-of-the-day lynch.

(Fuckdammit, SF, please stop auto-capitalizing "lynch".)

[BBM]

27 minutes ago, Shinori said:

MAybe cause I did it in champs where I buddied up to someone and then voted to kill them n1.  Prims also somewhat kept up with champs I think.

that's fair i did not pay attention to a single second of champs 😌 but lol for all of prims's posts about shinori being scum with refuge in audacity it seems he's the one doing it... i don't really think this is leading anywhere fruitful for now though since prims seems committed to waiting for other people before posting anymore content, so i'm going to sleep and try to figure out makaze's iso script tomorrow once other people have posted more.

with makaze i think im fine with him posting the random alignment declarations off random one liners. not that reads can't change but if he's scum it'll be hard to keep that up for more than a day or two

[Makaze]

Automated Votecount

Sunwoo (3): WeaponsofMassConstruction, Refa, Bluedoom
Bluedoom (1): Rapier
BBM (1): Makaze
Rapier (1): Snike
Refa (1): Sunwoo
Elieson (1): Shinori
Shinori (1): Prims
Makaze (1): BBM
Not voting (2): Iris, Fire Emblem Fan

Think I've fixed that issue.

[Sunwoo]

By the way, requesting that you guys not ping me unless it's to put down a vote. The notifications icon is a pain in the ass to clear.

[Makaze]

5 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Apparently SF ate a part of my response to you.

I'm not even sure that you and Refa are necessarily scum buddies. Real talk, I was rushing to get my basic thoughts written and posted so my scum reads were more based on how I saw people individually and not taking into account how I think these people would function as a scum team. I mean, about 1/3 of the game hasn't even posted yet, so unless I think all the scum in this game are people who already posted, most of my early scum team guesses will be obsolete.

When we get more interactions and an actual flip, I'll have more information to decide whether I think you/Refa was a bus, town/scum interactions, or if all my reads are shit. But individually, you both looked scummy to me. And again, this is far more nuance than I was willing to explain in my post-leaving post because, again, I was leaving the thread because my eyes hurt from staring at the screen. And like I explained, all you guys needed to do was ask for clarification.

Also, in the hypothetical case that you and Refa are both scum, I wouldn't even say that your vote on Refa has to be a bus. In the scenario where both of you are scum, it could just be scum buddies pressuring one another to create distance without actual intent to have your buddy be the end-of-the-day lynch.

(Fuckdammit, SF, please stop auto-capitalizing "lynch".)

If you're on PC, use https://stephanmahieu.github.io/fhc-home/

[Shinori]

13 minutes ago, BBM said:

i don't really think this is leading anywhere fruitful for now though since prims seems committed to waiting for other people before posting anymore content, so i'm going to sleep and try to figure out makaze's iso script tomorrow once other people have posted more.

Eventually Prims will respond to me!

[Makaze]

FWIW Both the ISO and Votal scripts have gotten much needed upgrades since start of the thread. If you plan to use them you'll want to reinstall.

[BBM]

12 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Very strong scum vibes out of the gate and frozen-esque reaction to being pressured. Nothing showing up to counter my feelings.

I haven't reacted to you pressuring me because you haven't actually pressured me. you haven't asked me any questions or said there's anything I can do to change your mind beyond "solving the game", so I'm basically ignoring your vote on me. I think your vote is quite silly but I don't feel like you're parking your vote as an excuse to avoid producing content, so I'm trying to form my read on you independent of it

also unfortunately I still don't think the votebot is working because it has me voting you still, when I'm voting Prims. My vote on him showed up in earlier votal iterations so I don't know why it's gone now. I think it's fine to not have a votebot for a game, you can work out the kinks on the thread when the game is finished. this thread is quite spammy already and I think the votebot debugging is adding to it. besides, not having a votebot is more nostalgic!!!

[Bluedoom]

man never thought I'd see someone say that 9 pages is spammy, if this was on smogon we'd have been at page 20 already

[Shinori]

I honestly feel like the only person that's being spammy is me, with a lesser extent being Makaze, but part of makaze's post count is inflated via the vote bot and talking about the vote bot and what not.

Most of the posts in this game have had actual content and not really spam. There is actual conversation going on.  Mafia has just vastly evolved from what it was back in the SF glory days where most SF games didn't get crazy page counts.

[CT075]

okay so Iris really managed to start the game on the one day where i had to spend six hours dealing with shitty deploy scripts and also when i had friends from out of town

this thread has 9 fucking pages that i have skimmed (while i am currently intoxicated), but i'm posting to say that i do exist

some (very incomplete) thoughts (god i hate rich text):

I think we'd all benefit from Makaze articulating a little more. Shit like "BBM gives scum vibes" -- in what way? Is this a gut feeling? Is it because of his wording? Refa/Boron aren't aligned, because... vibes? Setting aside whether this is scum (see next paragraph), this is just unhelpful; am I just supposed to hear the words "scum vibes" and immediately think "oh yeah, BBM does have scum vibes! I'm voting now!" (addendum: has it been too long to make a "BBM always has scum vibes" joke? was BBM a person people said this about?)

Gun to my head, I would say that making these kinds of no-details posts are cheap and easy to fake "contribution" (whatever that means), which is more indicative of scum intent than not, but I also hold the opinion that bad town play often overlaps with scum play on paper, especially in these early stages, and Makaze isn't even the only person guilty of this ("vibes first reasoning later" indeed).

On the flip side, I really like this Marth vote by Rapier; it would have been easy to park a vote on BBM and make noncommittal comments on the rest of the game state but the logic is relatively specific (nitpicky, would like more detail on what specific opinions Marth has that are contradictory, but also maybe they were just said earlier and I'm not remembering).

I don't hate this explanation by Weapons, can you go into more detail about what actions in particular tend to leak townliness, and what Boron has actually said that does not do this (or, otherwise, can you expand a little on someone who has done this?)

uhh what else, I think this post saying, quote, "I'm also just likely to forget that I had them with the next post that I read" is making excuses for something that I don't even think has happened yet? like, the claim "it's important that I write down my reads early and often so I can keep a record of the progression of my thoughts" as a response to "posting alignment reads is a bad idea" is well and good, but, your literal next sentence says that you expect them to change? How am I supposed to trust your "town ping" comments if this is the case?

[Makaze]

Automated Votecount

Sunwoo (3): WeaponsofMassConstruction, Refa, Bluedoom
Bluedoom (1): Rapier
BBM (1): Makaze
Rapier (1): Snike
Refa (1): Sunwoo
Elieson (1): Shinori
Shinori (1): Prims
Prims (1): BBM
Not voting (2): Iris, Fire Emblem Fan

Got it. @BBM Your post had a mention after your vote, which broke it. Fixed now.

[Makaze]

3 minutes ago, CT075 said:

okay so Iris really managed to start the game on the one day where i had to spend six hours dealing with shitty deploy scripts and also when i had friends from out of town

this thread has 9 fucking pages that i have skimmed (while i am currently intoxicated), but i'm posting to say that i do exist

some (very incomplete) thoughts (god i hate rich text):

I think we'd all benefit from Makaze articulating a little more. Shit like "BBM gives scum vibes" -- in what way? Is this a gut feeling? Is it because of his wording? Refa/Boron aren't aligned, because... vibes? Setting aside whether this is scum (see next paragraph), this is just unhelpful; am I just supposed to hear the words "scum vibes" and immediately think "oh yeah, BBM does have scum vibes! I'm voting now!" (addendum: has it been too long to make a "BBM always has scum vibes" joke? was BBM a person people said this about?)

Gun to my head, I would say that making these kinds of no-details posts are cheap and easy to fake "contribution" (whatever that means), which is more indicative of scum intent than not, but I also hold the opinion that bad town play often overlaps with scum play on paper, especially in these early stages, and Makaze isn't even the only person guilty of this ("vibes first reasoning later" indeed).

On the flip side, I really like this Marth vote by Rapier; it would have been easy to park a vote on BBM and make noncommittal comments on the rest of the game state but the logic is relatively specific (nitpicky, would like more detail on what specific opinions Marth has that are contradictory, but also maybe they were just said earlier and I'm not remembering).

I don't hate this explanation by Weapons, can you go into more detail about what actions in particular tend to leak townliness, and what Boron has actually said that does not do this (or, otherwise, can you expand a little on someone who has done this?)

uhh what else, I think this post saying, quote, "I'm also just likely to forget that I had them with the next post that I read" is making excuses for something that I don't even think has happened yet? like, the claim "it's important that I write down my reads early and often so I can keep a record of the progression of my thoughts" as a response to "posting alignment reads is a bad idea" is well and good, but, your literal next sentence says that you expect them to change? How am I supposed to trust your "town ping" comments if this is the case?

I am an almost 100% gut instinct player until the late game, and even if I try to make a real explanation for my instincts, it is probably not the actual reason because I just tried to justify it logically which is just a possible reason I have the feeling instead of the actual thing which is just intuition.

My read on BBM is 100% vibes. I am still willing to die on it.

I do not expect to be sheeped based on that argument. I am not going to try and make up a case which can't exist with so little content anyway. I am confident that if I am right, actual reasons will come out of their content, and I don't need to have the evidence to be right from post #1.

On the rest of it: When it comes to complicated stuff like "X/Y are unaligned", I find that my reasons for believing this are pretty accurate, and that those reads tend to happen in real time the first time I read them. If I don't take notes, I may well get caught up in the thread and forget I even made those associations, and I have trouble keeping my thoughts straight with my feelings when it comes to those kinds of things. I'd also like to have some kind of timing tied to when I had the ideas so that I can remember why I had that idea in the first place instead of trying to think of why I had such a complicated worldview when I do try to actually explain something later in the game.

In other words, I need to show my work for myself as much as anyone, or I won't be able to follow my own thought process.

Another way to look at it is that I'm not trying to make anyone believe that I'm town, nor am I trying to make a case. I am trying to solve the game out loud.

[Sunwoo]

13 minutes ago, CT075 said:

this thread has 9 fucking pages that i have skimmed (while i am currently intoxicated), but i'm posting to say that i do exist

You better not become the next inebriated Shinori drunkplaying mafia

Not gonna lie, I am somewhat annoyed that after questioning my reads and getting replies, both Marth and Refa have acknowledged my response and asked me a few follow up questions, but continue to keep their vote on me without explaining why I am still scummy despite my explanation, and have both gone entirely offline.

It's one thing if they still think I'm scummy despite my explanations. But right now it feels more like they just conveniently disappeared so they can keep their votes on me without justifying why I'm still the scummiest person in the thread.

[CT075]

6 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

You better not become the next inebriated Shinori drunkplaying mafia

listen it's not my fault the game started while i was at the liquor store

[Makaze]

##Vote @Bluedoom

I still want BBM gone, and the best rational explanation I can give is that their entrance felt... Off.

Reading back, it was extremely nebulous. The thinnest of reads. Now I'm deathtunneling it, and I couldn't really tell you why, except for this: BBM has not questioned my alignment. Their questions to me were meaningless (the aligned thing for example) and they have not meaningfully contributed. They are coasting on their RVS vote, which felt off to me probably because of OMGUS, but also because it felt forced, like they had to come up with an RVS vote and they picked that for the sake of having one. I think BBM was intentionally avoiding a vote that meant something, which could be me reading too much into it, but I'm comfortable doing that at this point.

Bluedoom has all kinds of weirdness and fits in with a BBM scumteam, so I'm consolidating there until something better becomes available.

[Shinori]

##Vote: @Prims

[Sunwoo]

???

Makaze, I really think you're tunneling on BBM for questionable reasons.

I don't get why his RVS vote on you is forced, and he voted for Prims after he returned to the thread a few pages later. It also doesn't help your case that you've been harping on BBM ever since his RVS vote ...

[Shinori]

Makaze is outed.