(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins!

[BBM]

weapons and rapier are giving me headaches. @Rapier i simply don't understand how you can find the timing of my weapons vote suspicious and then find him scummy enough to vote later in the same post. those things are mutually exclusive unless you specifically think i'm bussing

i'm also not sure if scum weapons would be more or less likely to bring up as he was voting for refa that he was not reading refa's posts and that he was voting a competing wagon. this sucks cuz there's no end to the wifom in my head. @WeaponsofMassConstruction can you please read refa's

@Snike I think you've mentioned twice about me and j00 melding thoughts / parroting each other. do you think we're scumbuddies or that one of us is consciously sheeping the other?

i don't love shinori's via vote and the whole exchange. it feels like cherrypicking only a certain part of the post without a holistic sense of via's play. also i just don't get the point of admitting as you're voting via that his play actually reminds you more of town but you want to see how he'll react under the pressure. a) admitting it's just a pressure-vote without a lot of feeling defeats the point and b) why use your pressure-vote on via to begin with instead of someone you find scummier? who do you even find scummy at the moment? what happened to your sb read?

on thursday I was stressed about the upcoming week of work, but this mafia game has replaced that with a new and worse stress

[BT.]

4 minutes ago, j00 said:

Maybe he's [Rapier] sloppy scum but it all feels too careless to me? I don't want to vote him today, the earlier Rapier/Marth/Boron interactions came off as town infighting to me.

I do agree with this ftr, this was my early sentiment and it's why I'm delaying seriously pushing that slot until D2 at latest, but at the same time what I brought up a few posts ago really does not look good and I want it addressed.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

31 minutes ago, CT075 said:Weapons – What towntells were you looking for, WRT Refa? Why does Prims’ posts being really well-thought out make him not scum (I’m also townreading Prims, but it feels like a non-sequitur)? Can you go into more detail about how, exactly, you’re eliminating your townreads?

As I recall town Refa tends to have a very natural active presence when he’s in the thread. I think he had this early on but not as much recently, which would make sense from a scum perspective since imo that’s the hardest sort of town meta to replicate. Granted it’s been two days and many years but I do recall Refa consistently feeling clearly town from back then, which I’m not picking up on now. Call it a meta meta read if you will. As for Prims I’m actually leaning scum, and will get around to explaining eventually.

[Rapier]

23 minutes ago, BT. said:

@Rapier Here are some quotes from you w/ matching post numbers.

#164: Makaze, Weapons: Leaning slightly toward scum. Weapons seems to be leaning slightly more towards town rn because after interacting with him, I'm a bit doubtful if he had scum intent.

#357: Weapons seems like a confused townie but could go either way - I still don't want to judge him for RVS stuff.

#496: I think it'd make more sense for you [BBM] to vote me instead, since we had around 36 hours left when you made this post and you could've pressed me for content, but instead you voted for someone you feel is scummy (although I understand and agree with your [BBM] reasons on Weapons).

#512: BBM I like slightly less, because his reasons against me are ok, but his [BBM's] reasons against Weapons seem way too subjective/"gut feeling" and it has been an easy wagon to push for a while. Of all the reasons from the people voting Weapons, his seem the weakest and most convenient imo.

This just seems like a mess? You can't make a conclusion on Weapons, then you agree w/ BBM on him (and also don't?), all the while establishing you're also fine voting there. I don't know, I'm reading your stated reason for voting Weapons in the recent post and this doesn't feel like a real read. Have you read the slot and got a handle for what his play feels like? Because I did, and I have a conclusion about it, but I'm not getting the feeling that you've done that yourself.

I couldn't get a conclusion on Weapons during RVS/early D1 and was mostly pushing him for content.

I agree with BBM's reasons for why Weapons' vote on me was bad, but I don't agree with his conclusion that he's the scummiest due to how he feels about it, and then he just sidewaved his read on me as me being confused townie being stupid as usual.

The premises of his arguments were ok, but then his conclusion is really weird and just based on how he feels. For all intents and purposes, they didn't adequately lead to him reading Weapons as scum or me as "slightly more town". And Weapons was an easier vote.

 

@CT075 Why is Weapons worse than every other player you mentioned? If he's similar to Makaze, why choose the former over the later?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

That’s why I have that read without really reading into Refa’s posts. Like to me the content would be much easier to fake than the activity so I consider the latter a more reliable tell.

[Rapier]

Ok, I forgot to give closure to my opinions on Weapons.

I think he's been coasting since RVS, and then did it again after voting me, realizing his vote on me was being questioned and getting himself voted for it, backpedaling due to gut feeling, going for the guy who had two or three posts instead (Elie), then picking up Refa's wagon because he feels he's scum (he didn't elaborate that much) despite not even reading him and not remembering his content, and this just seems too convenient for the second most voted guy (Refa had 5 and how has 6, Weapons had 3 and has 4 iirc).

I see scum intent and benefit on his two latest votes and his justifications are simply too weak and convenient.

 

[CT075]

4 minutes ago, Rapier said:

Why is Weapons worse than every other player you mentioned? If he's similar to Makaze, why choose the former over the later?

What other player did I mention as scummy that you think I had a stronger case for? Do you think it's a good idea to test Makaze's "it will be impossible to eliminate me today"?

13 minutes ago, j00 said:

 You say the Refa wagon feels off and mentions Prims and BT, what do you feel about their other reads, do they also feel constructed? Eg. you were willing to sheep Prims on Snike earlier.

I did generally think that Prims is town, but maybe less so now than later. I will need to think a little harder about whether I think their earlier reads feel constructed to me, I just highlighted the one post that I don't agree with.

I have no complaints about BT's content, I actually only highlighted them because I was annoyed at having to go back pages to find the actual read itself.

[BT.]

@Rapier Last thing, because you didn't address it - thoughts on the Refa wagon in general, and thoughts on my concerns here?

[BT.]

I guess you did say you'd do it later, but I want it now. ☝️ Pretty formative point in the day, and voting one wagon while showing... interest...? in the competing wagon while criticizing people on it, is not a good look.

[Rapier]

14 minutes ago, BBM said:

weapons and rapier are giving me headaches. @Rapier i simply don't understand how you can find the timing of my weapons vote suspicious and then find him scummy enough to vote later in the same post. those things are mutually exclusive unless you specifically think i'm bussing

i'm also not sure if scum weapons would be more or less likely to bring up as he was voting for refa that he was not reading refa's posts and that he was voting a competing wagon. this sucks cuz there's no end to the wifom in my head. @WeaponsofMassConstruction can you please read refa's

Because it's not black and white.

I still have a slight scumread on how suspicious your vote was, but I admit I could be wrong and this is more of a sliding scale of who I find town/scum rather than absolute positions.

I have a bigger scumread on Weapons and I find it unlikely but not entirely impossible that you were bussing him back then, since it wasn't such a hard vote to make and since you could have as well gone for me for the same reason but concluded I was more town-leaning while Weapons was more scum-leaning due to how you felt. As for not switching off later, Weapons wasn't in a big risk of getting lynched until a few pages ago.

Refa is still leading by 2-3 players, so your potential vote on a scumbuddy isn't that big a risk and separates you from him on the low chance he gets lynched and flips scum. Seems like a benefitial gamble.

As for scum Weapons admiting to not doing something he should do, your argument seems to me like you're begging the question and it's understandable how a scum player could still make mistakes. Admiting and making mistakes doesn't help with their innocence.

[Makaze]

I keep seeing a pattern from Shinori saying Hm, Interesting, I need to think on that more

[Makaze]

i am not able to post on mobile

that pattern is a bad thing and it is about time we saw some conclusions

[Rapier]

3 minutes ago, BT. said:

I guess you did say you'd do it later, but I want it now. ☝️ Pretty formative point in the day, and voting one wagon while showing... interest...? in the competing wagon while criticizing people on it, is not a good look.

I don't have a good read on Refa's wagon, and agreeing on Refa doing questionable things before doesn't mean this instantly validates every reason used for voting him. I really don't have much of an opinion on Refa nor on his wagon votes, save for what I said regarding Weapons' switch.

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I keep seeing a pattern from Shinori saying Hm, Interesting, I need to think on that more

Is Shinori having been hacked by Elon Musk a scum tell?

[Refa]

2 hours ago, Percivalé said:

I'm not sure I want to elim weapons anymore However I'd be interested in seeing his alignment flip for the sake of analyzing his wagon because like I said earlier if he's town I think scum was on his case early in the game. I'm okay with elimming refa because of the content of theirs I've read I've been like "I think this is scum," last night while I was reading my eyes were so glazed over I'd been reading posts without seeing who the post author was and would be like "this is a scum post" then check back and it was refa who posted it. but they're the highest wagon already and I'm not sure if that means I'm right or not

You should quote this post.

I liked Shinori's initial Percy vote because that was my reaction when I first read the post (especially because it was worded elim weapons anymore). After Percy's explanation, I'm not bothered by it anymore.

2 hours ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

I don’t think Shinori’s scum. I don’t think Percy’s scum. I don’t think SB and j00 are scum. Nor Makaze or Cam. Or BBM. Or Marth. That leaves BT/Rapier/Prims/Refa/Boron/Elie/and someone else I’m forgetting. I think lurk Elie is just scum but yeah it feels bad voting him cause he hasn’t really played yet. I feel like Refa is playing towards his scum meta and feel like if he were town he would be towntelling a lot more. Prims I may be paranoid about, but I feel like his posts are too well thought out. Rapier I’m going to file away for later because the fundamental problem is that I’m having trouble understanding his posts and that makes for a hard time getting a read. I don’t have the brain capacity for it at the moment. Boron is fine for now and I don’t think my original case on her is worth that much relative to the rest of what’s happened in the thread. BT I don’t know, don’t particularly care for at the moment. I specced multiball for a bit in my head since that would explain why I’m picking up on so much town, but I don’t think it makes sense with lurk scum Elie. Who is the last mystery person let me actually check

1 hour ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

Avoiding jumping on Refa wagon cause I know timing wise it looks convenient to jump on a competing wagon, which is dumb as shit, but yeah I just don’t really want to deal with that right now.

also I haven’t really been reading his posts

##Vote: @Refa

This is not a good vote. In general, it's pretty tilting that some people are scumreading me with the excuse of "oh, Refa would play better if they were town" and "yeah, this is there scum meta" but then they don't actually explain which of my posts bother them or why my posts play to my scum meta. It is not something that I can reasonably respond too and is just a dead end of a case with no hope of progression. But that's not really a Weapons exclusive thing. I don't like this vote because it reads as you being pressured to consolidate and you even admit that you don't want to look bad which is ??? How about this, you should be able to answer this. What is my scum meta that I am playing towards and what posts of mine made you feel that way?

1 hour ago, charlie_ said:

The votals from the previous page are interesting because aside from null!BT I think I townread the entire Refa wagon and from their last post it didn't look like Refa had problems with most of them either. @Refa Do you have any thoughts on this? Would also like Makaze's take on this because they posted them but I'm not sure how seriously/what to make of their Weapons cfd comment.

Wrt Shinori his individual posts have moooostly been fine but I'm a bit leery on the recent Percy vote. The only thing that really sticks out to me is pre-Percy a lot of his content/post bursts felt like they coincided with someone posting they were suspicious of him but like, their interaction with me felt decent on vibesand Rapier's push on them was pretty crummy. 

BT feels like he parked a vote on me and hasn't done much else until recently.  I've liked his recent content, so I'm not really bothered by the slot at the moment.

j00 I'm not sure about. The reasoning on her Refa read doesn't seem consistent to me, because it went from scumread -> fine -> scumread but the second scumread is based on the same reasoning as the first. If you still felt this way, why would you feel better about me and what changed about that?

I'mma be honest, I don't remember why Prims is voting me.

Marth I get an actual progression from so I'm not bothered really.

You should also respond to my previous post.

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

It's not so much that I think it should've changed, but that I get this feeling that they've come to a conclusion first and are giving justification for why what I do is still scummy rather than actually reevaluating and deciding that despite everything my slot still feels scummy.

Also, I'm very aware that Marth isn't kirsche, but the way Marth's later read on me is explained gives me hard Inception scum!kirsche vibes. (A game in which you, j00, and I were also scum.) He would gives reasons for why people were scum, tiering them in order of scumminess, and even after various interactions and flips happened he'd never actually change his reads, arguing "actually, X could do this as scum too". It's mostly this post of Marth's that rubs me the wrong way and gives me Inception scum!kirsche vibes.

I don't think he needs to take a 180 on me here. But for someone who stated earlier that all I'm doing towards him is saying everything he does is bad and that I should look at it from the other side, he sure refuses to extend the same consideration to me!

I did get this same vibe from his read on you. It doesn't feel like he's made the effort to take into account your new responses or reads and that's the one thing that's giving me pause on this slot. What do you think of the people who have been voting Marth? My issues with several of the people on the wagon were part of the reason I felt better about Marth.

7 minutes ago, j00 said:

@Refa You feel disconnected/detached because eg. in your analysis post you don't change your vote from Makaze so I assume you still find them the scummiest, but then don't comment on their latest antics other than replying to their question that was directly aimed at you. Like what do you think about """lynchproof""" crumb or whatever? It just doesn't seem like you're feeling the case much and that's sorta the overall tone I get from your reads.

Read Makaze's ISO for yourself. They have not made an actual post or progressed their read in like 24 hours. There's the lynchproof crumb, which they then immediately said was BS, so I did not comment on it. Then they state an opinion on the Weapons' wagon but don't have a read on anyone there, and I don't get the opinion on the Weapons wagon. Then they double down on their Marth read in a one liner. There is no additional insight I can give there. It's a pretty stark contrast over their play earlier, like they're afraid of being in the limelight. This is why I feel comfortable with my vote, because they haven't been engaging in any way.

3 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

As I recall town Refa tends to have a very natural active presence when he’s in the thread. I think he had this early on but not as much recently, which would make sense from a scum perspective since imo that’s the hardest sort of town meta to replicate. Granted it’s been two days and many years but I do recall Refa consistently feeling clearly town from back then, which I’m not picking up on now. Call it a meta meta read if you will. As for Prims I’m actually leaning scum, and will get around to explaining eventually.

I subbed out of my last few town games, but ignoring that, you mentioned earlier that I was playing to my scum meta. Why is that?

Feeling better about Cam after his last post. I don't get why Scum!Rapier votes for Weapons over me here (especially considering he had an earlier suspicion of me), unless he thinks maybe it'd be too easy? I think I'd feel better about this slot if he had an actual read on me. It feels weird that he doesn't have an opinion on me, or my wagon votes. It's also why I'm kinda hesitant to be voting Weapons here, despite my issues with the slot.

[Makaze]

5 minutes ago, Rapier said:

I don't have a good read on Refa's wagon, and agreeing on Refa doing questionable things before doesn't mean this instantly validates every reason used for voting him. I really don't have much of an opinion on Refa nor on his wagon votes, save for what I said regarding Weapons' switch.

Is Shinori having been hacked by Elon Musk a scum tell?

I am struggling to see Shinori's agenda or plan for winning this game, and nothing they've done that actually improved their ability to read any players. They are commenting on facts that others have uncovered, but not coming to any conclusions. They are not getting closer to solving the game. What is their strategy?

[BBM]

i kind of had a similar feeling to sb in that before weapons jumped on, the refa wagon felt pretty pure to me in that everyone on it was neutral at worst. the timing of weapons' switch and the reasons for the refa vote don't really impress me because honestly I don't think refa has any less activity than say, sb or prims or bt or j00. obviously different people have different meta but it's nowhere near low enough to the point i'd say refa is lurking.

THAT BEING SAID fuck it I'm going with this as my #1 now:

##Unvote, ##Vote: @Rapier

your reasoning about me that you've repeated a few times feels makaze-ish in that it's like you wanted me to vote for you? i'm not handwaving reasoning against you and continued to post about you. i went with weapons at the time because the vibes have felt worse with weapons from the beginning (i think you can see me questioning him about stuff from pretty early in the game), so I voted the person who i was feeling bad with for a longer period of time. not to mention, given that fypov you're confirmed town, what's the scum intent in me choosing to vote weapons for flimsy reasons over you? why wouldn't i just vote you if i'm scum and you're town?

anyways it honestly just feels like Rapier is making stuff up at this point. j00 asked if rapier is just town flailing or sloppy scum and i'm feeling the latter much more with this line of questioning

@Makaze can you summarize why you find marth suspicious? your vote's been there a long time, I know you said some stuff in the middle about him but I can't parse it out and the main reason you've given that still sticks in my head is the associations between me and him. a lot of your recent posts have said something like "i'm not townreading him" or "i'd be okay with his elimination" which just doesn't feel like a very active form of suspicion

[j00]

3 minutes ago, Refa said:

There's the lynchproof crumb, which they then immediately said was BS, so I did not comment on it.

Okay but do you think this is scummy behavior? You think Makaze is scummy, right, but you have no comment on Makaze crumbing lynchproof and IMMEDIATELY calling it BS? What is the scum justification for this?

3 minutes ago, Refa said:

This is why I feel comfortable with my vote, because they haven't been engaging in any way.

It doesn't feel like you've been trying to engage with them for a long time either.

4 minutes ago, Refa said:

j00 I'm not sure about. The reasoning on her Refa read doesn't seem consistent to me, because it went from scumread -> fine -> scumread but the second scumread is based on the same reasoning as the first. If you still felt this way, why would you feel better about me and what changed about that?

I felt better about a few of your posts that was more reactive to what was going on currently (eg. Boron's vote switch to Makaze), but your latest posts are giving me the same vibes/tones as your first posts. 

[Makaze]

Just now, BBM said:

i kind of had a similar feeling to sb in that before weapons jumped on, the refa wagon felt pretty pure to me in that everyone on it was neutral at worst. the timing of weapons' switch and the reasons for the refa vote don't really impress me because honestly I don't think refa has any less activity than say, sb or prims or bt or j00. obviously different people have different meta but it's nowhere near low enough to the point i'd say refa is lurking.

THAT BEING SAID fuck it I'm going with this as my #1 now:

##Unvote, ##Vote: @Rapier

your reasoning about me that you've repeated a few times feels makaze-ish in that it's like you wanted me to vote for you? i'm not handwaving reasoning against you and continued to post about you. i went with weapons at the time because the vibes have felt worse with weapons from the beginning (i think you can see me questioning him about stuff from pretty early in the game), so I voted the person who i was feeling bad with for a longer period of time. not to mention, given that fypov you're confirmed town, what's the scum intent in me choosing to vote weapons for flimsy reasons over you? why wouldn't i just vote you if i'm scum and you're town?

anyways it honestly just feels like Rapier is making stuff up at this point. j00 asked if rapier is just town flailing or sloppy scum and i'm feeling the latter much more with this line of questioning

@Makaze can you summarize why you find marth suspicious? your vote's been there a long time, I know you said some stuff in the middle about him but I can't parse it out and the main reason you've given that still sticks in my head is the associations between me and him. a lot of your recent posts have said something like "i'm not townreading him" or "i'd be okay with his elimination" which just doesn't feel like a very active form of suspicion

Everything that Bluedoom does feels fake, or at least fakeable, and they have not mindmelded with me about anything. Their reads list makes no sense and contradicts my own opinions. Like most of my scum reads, he is not pushing a town agenda like forming a town core or making sure a specific scum is eliminated. Their actions are calculated and "fine", and that's the extent of it.

I am also looking at his associatives. Their Refa vote is extremely weird and I am entirely convinced Bluedoom is mafia if Refa flips red.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I don’t know, I run into these situations where it’s like, I know this thing I’m about to do will be perceived as scummy, but then that is actually how I feel so then what are you supposed to do? I feel like people tend toward not doing the thing, which is how you get people tunneling to like avoid being accused of backtracking and stuff, but that feels like flawed play to me, so I opt to go with doing the thing. But then this shit happens, and it’s like, yeah well what did you expect? Maybe the real cure is to just suck it up and put in the big scum hunt effort, but…I mean I have been doing that haven’t I?

[CT075]

27 minutes ago, Rapier said:

Is Shinori having been hacked by Elon Musk a scum tell?

is "you made me spit water all over my keyboard and now i have to clean it up" a good reason to vote someone? asking for a friend

[Makaze]

5 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

I don’t know, I run into these situations where it’s like, I know this thing I’m about to do will be perceived as scummy, but then that is actually how I feel so then what are you supposed to do? I feel like people tend toward not doing the thing, which is how you get people tunneling to like avoid being accused of backtracking and stuff, but that feels like flawed play to me, so I opt to go with doing the thing. But then this shit happens, and it’s like, yeah well what did you expect? Maybe the real cure is to just suck it up and put in the big scum hunt effort, but…I mean I have been doing that haven’t I?

What have you got to show for it?

Does anyone feel ingenuine?

[j00]

@WeaponsofMassConstruction I even sort of agree with your latest votes/reads, but from your pov they are very lazy votes (lone inactive guy people said had a bad post + counter wagon) which is why you get flak. I get that all or Rapiers currently ongoing posts are a lot to read and hard to parse (I feel it too), but you mention him and Prims as potential scumspects you want to look more into but hasn't yet elaborated on them. 

IDK to me you're currently null. Admitting that you're doing scummy things is WIFOM from me. I'm not really feeling for lynching you, I can get Cam's vote and reasoning but I think Rapier is voting you for being sloppy while he also feels sloppy to me so it's less convincing.

[BBM]

why would scum marth force a scumread on his buddy? very strange logic

[j00]

Just now, BBM said:

why would scum marth force a scumread on his buddy? very strange logic

"Would SFmafia really bus a buddy?" I mean

[Makaze]

Just now, BBM said:

why would scum marth force a scumread on his buddy? very strange logic

If he thought they were both going to be wagons, he would try to get on earlier instead of sheeping it when it's harder